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TWELFTH ANNUAL REPORT OF THE Farmers' Institutes of British Columbia AND MINUTES OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF… British Columbia. Legislative Assembly 1911

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 TWELFTH ANNUAL REPORT
-OP   THE	
Farmers' Institutes of British Columbia
-AND—
MINUTES OF THE PROCEEDINGS
-OP   THE-
Thirteenth Annual Convention of the Central Farmers' Institute.
THE GOVERNMENT OF
THE PROVINCE OF BRITISKCOLMBIA.
PRINTED   BY   AUTHORITY   OF
THE   LEGISLATIVE   ASSEMBLY   OE   BRITISH   COLUMBIA.
VICTORIA, B. C. :
Printed by Richaed Wolfbnden, I.S.O., V.D., Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty.
1911.  Department of Agriculture,
Victoria, B. C, May 1st, 1911.
The Hon. Price Ellison,
Minister of Agriculture.
Sir,—I have the honour to transmit herewith the Twelfth Report of the
Farmers' Institute of British Columbia, embodying the proceedings of the
Thirteenth Annual Convention of the Central Farmers' Institute, held in the
Botanical Chambers of the Department of Agriculture, Victoria, B. C, on January
10th, 12th, and 13th, 1911.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
WM. E. SCOTT,
Deputy Minister of Agriculture,
Superintendent of Farmers' Institutes.  ■ , ■
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! TWELFTH   ANNUAL   REPORT
OF  THE
FARMERS' INSTITUTES OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
AND
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Thirteenth Annual Convention
of the Central Farmers' Institute.
-:o:-
A synopsis of the work conducted by the Farmers' Institutes of the Province of British
Columbia will be found under the Superintendent's address as presented to the Convention.
The progress of the Farmers' Institutes during the past year has been very marked, the
increase both in number of Institutes and membership being very gratifying and encouraging,
and the increased interest taken by farmers and fruit-growers throughout the Province clearly
demonstrates that the value of this organization is being more and more appreciated.
To avoid confusion and to simplify work in the Department, a number of Acts which were
conflicting were consolidated into one, entitled the " Agricultural Associations Act, 1911," In
which is incorporated the " Farmers' Institutes and Co-operative Act," with all amendments
thereto, and which was passed at the recent session of the Legislature. Provision is also made
in this Act for the incorporation of Women's Institutes. The "Women's Institute movement is
now firmly established in the Province and is rapidly spreading.
As in the previous year, the annual meetings of the Farmers' Institute, Agricultural Fair
Association, Stock-breeders' Association, Dairymen's Association, Poultrymen's Association,
Fruit-growers' Association, and Board of Horticulture were held in sequence, thus enabling
those interested to attend each and all of the meetings.
An improvement was effected by allowing more time to the meetings, and tbe Department
of Agriculture feels convinced that its efforts towards making these meetings a success were
appreciated by those attending.
During the past year fruit-packing schools have been conducted by the Department at all
places which furnished the necessary number of pupils, and general demonstration work has
been largely extended. L 6
British Columbia
1911
Recokd of Institute Meetings.
Institute.
No. of Meetings.
Attendance.
O    a;
.    11
^1  U
ana
•4-1
O   at
,     U
iU   CD
& J5
O    CD
Cash on
A.M.
P.M.
EVE 'G.
A.M.
P.M.
even'g.
hand.
2
20
34
123
118
41
72
85
148
44
52
49
47
274
319
147
|   226 88
1
17
2
52
367
2
19
.    4
105 00
3
31 30
48
64
41 00
2
4
1
8
2
9
7
12
2
85
100
60
64
110
180'
157
182
76
10
14
5
14
5
235 96
33 02
72 60
2
3
19
61
21 70
Delta	
1
23
152 15
1
12
3
12
246
93
18
81
79
81
73
66
101
86
30
84
165
88
96
71
94
174
135
79
33
162
32
47
262
60
208
110
85
361
37
108
67
123
115
190
23
42 80
Uef.    4 34
Kent	
167 20
Kettle Valley	
1
1
3
4
30
33
202
250
9
7
13 80
97 20
1
4
2
7
2
3
8
1
13
12
167
32
101
36
87
160
15
194
110
108
107
4
16
1
7
14
4
1
5
66 41
84 78
Mara	
1
106 05
7
5
3
5
45 17
24 20
2
37
111 05
3
4
184
357
9
29 74
24 30
1
19
3
10
2
3
3
15
247
125
264
68
139
31
4
13
6
12
8
56 29
164 60
Spallumcheen	
1
1
5
25
22
354
43
59 25
115 67
15 50
Surrey 	
3
47 00
3
6
12
6
520
559
420
231
10
20
37
89 90
West Kootenay	
2
7
65
172
9? 53
Total	
9
64
175
237
2,093
5,121
268
5,226 2 Geo. 5 Farmers-' Institutes Beport. L
CENTRAL  FARMERS'  INSTITUTE.
Thirteenth Annual Convention.
The Thirteenth Annual Convention of the Central Farmers' Institute of British Columbia
was convened at 10 a.m. on January 10th, 1911, in the Botanical Chambers, Department of
Agriculture, Victoria, B. C, Mr. Wm. E. Scott, Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Superintendent of Farmers' Institutes, being moved to the chair to preside over the proceedings. The
following delegates from the Farmers' Institutes were present:—
Name of Delegate. Name of Institute.
H. H. Matthews   Nicola
J. F. Lennox McFarlane    Cobble Hill (Shawnigan)
A.  K.  Goldsmith     Aldergrove
Charles W.  Little    Mara
R. H. Baird  Nakusp  (Arrow Lakes)
W. J. Frederick    Ladner  (Delta)
G. E. Taylor    Langley
D.  E.  McKay     Eburne (Richmond)
J. W. Hardy   •  Agassiz  (Kent)
W. H. Robson    Burton
William  Barclay     Central Park
J.  S.  Shopland     Comox
Chas. J. Thompson    Summerland
F.   Cowley     Alberni
C. Scott Galloway    Grand Forks (Kettle Valley)
Philip J. Locke   Crawford Bay
J. A. Catherwood   Mission City
W. W. Bennett   Strawberry Hill
A. E. Keffer   Arrow Park
Chas. M. Field    Revelstoke
Ed. Toombs   •  Salmon Arm
A. J. C. Clarence  Peachland
Walter V. Jackson   Creston (East Kootenay)
John T. Collins   Ganges Harbour (Islands)
H.  P.  Lee     Vernon (Okanagan)
Chas. D. Ellis   Windermere
Donald Matheson   Armstrong (Spallumcheen)
A. J. Curie   Kaslo (Kootenay Lakes)
J. C. Harris   New Denver
j A. D. Clyde    Robson
J. D. Paris   Surrey
I C. C. Touchard   Sooke
: W. L. Keene   North Vancouver
Colin Simeon Smith     Kelowna
t M. Dean    Saanich
H.   R.   Phillips     Matsqui
I Samuel Macdonald    Cranbrook L 8 British Columbia 1911
Name of Delegate. Name of Institute.
H.  B.  Baker     Coquitlam
F. Duncan Campbell    Port Hammond (Maple Ridge)
Robert W. Taylor  Bridesville   (Myncaster)
George Heatherbell    Colwood (Metchosin)
Alex. Herd  Duncans (Cowichan)
W. O. Brett  Kamloops
James  Bailey     Sardis   (Chilliwack)
James Johnston    Nelson (West Kootenay)
Mr. Scott: I am glad to have this opportunity to welcome you here to the Thirteenth
Annual Convention of the Central Farmers' Institute, and am very pleased to say that the
Premier has kindly consented to come and give you an address. I have pleasure in asking
Mr. McBride to address this annual convention of the Farmers" Institutes.
Address by the Hon. the Pbemiee.
Mr. McBride: Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—I think that this is about the eighth anuual
meeting of the Central Institute that I have had the pleasure of addressing. I can easily
follow the work of your Association, at any rate, during the time to which I have just referred.
I know from my own experience in the different rural sections of the country the practical
results that have come from the work of the different institutes, and I am to-day more than
ever convinced of the wisdom of the Government in lending substantial assistance and
encouragement to the efforts of your various associations. Now and then there have been
certain criticisms made with regard to the inability of the Government at all times to assist in
the formation of institutes when and where some of our friends would wish to have them
established. But, gentlemen, I am quite satisfied that when these different instances have
been properly investigated, it has invariably turned out that the reasons that have been urged
for the establishment of these new institutes were not sufficiently strong to warrant action.
I mention, of course, the fact that there have been these criticisms and complaints, more for the
purpose of showing you the interest taken at large by the farmers themselves in this work
than for any desire of mine to have you believe that there is little, if any, fault found with the
Department of Agriculture. It is Indeed most gratifying to see that the work of the institutes
throughout the country is recognised by the farmers and followed by them with very keen interest.
From the statistics of the Department it is pleasing to note that the number of associations
has increased very greatly in the past year, and that with the increase of the number of associations there is going on a very large increase of the membership. While I direct your attention
to this fact, I am not unmindful also of the formation of the institutes that the women are
now managing, and with very good results, too. I am quite satisfied that this departure will
bring about very many excellent and gratifying results. Now, Mr. Scott and gentlemen, we
who have to do with the Government of the country are always pleased to learn from those
of you with whom the Government come in contact that the men who have been selected
by the authorities here and who have been sent to lecture to the farmers of British Columbia
are men whose views have been most acceptably listened to, and for the most part retained.
It is not always possible for the Government to get the talents that perhaps the conditions here
would warrant and justify, but I think you must admit that invariably the selections made
by the Government have been sound, that the men have been proficient on the subjects on
which they have lectured to you. I am quite satisfied of that from the reports we have had,
and you need have no difficulty in coming to the conclusion that with respect to the present
year's work, you will have, as in the past, the strongest support that the Government can give
you. The evidences of your interest in the work and of the efficiency with which it is being done
are so patent that it is one of the easiest duties that could fall to our hands as a Government
to do our part in lending substantial support to you. I am glad to meet you here again,
gentlemen, and particularly at this time when we are preparing for our session's work. It is
not only helpful to the Government, but to Parliament, to have you here a little before the
opening of the House. It is beneficial to the session's work not only in connection with the
question of the consideration of the estimates, but also to have your help with regard to any 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Beport. L 9
amendments that may be proposed to the laws of the country with respect to agriculture. I
thank you again for giving me the opportunity to address this your thirteenth annual meeting,
and I hope that in every way it will be successful and beneficial.
Moved by George Heatherbell, seconded by James Johnston, " That Mr. W. E. Scott, Superintendent of  Institutes,   act  as  Chairman."    Carried.
Moved by H. R. Phillips, seconded by William Barclay, of Central Park, " That Mr. A. E.
Craddock, Secretary of the Department of Agriculture, act as Secretary."    Carried.
Mr. Scott: I will now ask the Secretary to call the roll of the members. I may say, before
he does so, that if there are any here who are not delegates, although we are glad to have them,
they are not entitled to speak except by invitation. If there are any gentlemen here who are
not delegates and who wish to speak, the sanction of the meeting will have to be given.
The roll was then called.
Mr. Scott: In accordance with the instructions given me as your Superintendent at your
last annual meeting, a Resolutions Committee was appointed by me. These gentlemen were
invited to attend the day before this meeting, so as to give them time to go through the resolutions carefully. The number of the Resolutions Committee was four, and I afterwards added
a fifth, so that there would not be a tie if any questions came up for decision. I have here a
report of the Resolutions Committee, which, with your permission, I will present to you before
going on with other business:—
Repoet of Resolutions Committee.
Me. Chaieman and Gentlemen,—Your Committee have gone carefully over all the resolutions submitted to them, and a few have been set aside and others have been incorporated into
one on account of being related to the same subject and much alike in substance. They are
now in order to be taken up by the Convention. There is one resolution marked " No. Ia "
that your Committee wish to have brought up early and referred back until later in the
session for the purpose of allowing more time to secure more information on the subject,
which can be obtained within the Department. Also your Committee would respectfully point
out the advisability of keeping to the regulations, in not allowing any more resolutions to be
introduced relating to new subjects, at least after noon to-day.    Respectfully submitted,
Geo. Heatherbell, Chairman.
W. J. Beandeith, Sec. to the Committee.
Moved by W.. Barclay (Central Park), seconded by J. A. Catherwood (Mission), "That the
report of the Resolutions Committee be received."    Carried.
Mr. Scott: If I may ask you, gentlemen, when you get up to speak, would you be kind
enough to call out the name of your institute. It need not be your own name. Just give the
name of your institute, so that the reporter may be able to take the name down. I will now
present your Superintendent's Report.
Supeeintendent's Repoet.
Gentlemen,—It gives me great pleasure to report that there has been a marked increase
of interest manifested throughout the Province in the work of Farmers' Institutes during the
past year. This is a source of gratification to your Superintendent, and I trust that it may
continue and that the Department will always receive the cordial co-operation of all members
of institutes throughout the Province. By this means, institute work will, I hope, become of
great benefit to the farmers and tend towards the development of the agricultural interests of
our great Province.
Increase in Membership.
The membership has increased during the past year from 4,027 in 1909 to 5,195 in 1910.
There have been nine new institutes formed during the past year, which makes a total number
at present organized in the Province of forty-nine. This gives each institute an average of 106
members, which, considering the vast size of our Province and the comparatively sparse farming
population contained therein, is, I think, a very creditable showing. The new institutes which
have been organized during the past year are as follows: Aldergrove, Burton City, Crawford
Bay, Mara, North Saanich, New Denver, Peachland, South Kootenay, Strawberry Hill. L 10 British Columbia 1911
(A tabulated statement giving the institutes, with membership, number of regular and
supplementary meetings held, attendance, and financial condition will be found on page 6 of
this Report.)
Regular Meetings.
Printed itineraries are now sent out to every individual member of each institute from the
Department of Agriculture, giving date of meeting, time, place, name of lecturer, and subject
on which demonstration or address will be given. This should tend to lessen the routine work
of institute secretaries. Attendance at the regular spring and fall meetings, I am pleased to
state, has been much more satisfactory than in previous years, and a greater interest has been
evidenced both in the lectures and field-demonstration work conducted at these meetings. This
is most encouraging to the Department and I hope that the improvement may continue.
The following ladies and gentlemen have been engaged during the past year, and I believe
have given general satisfaction. Many of these men are eminent authorities and specialists
and have been secured at considerable expense, but I am satisfied that the results obtained fully
justify the expenditure:—
Spring Meetings.
Mrs. (Dr.) A. Watt, Victoria; Hon. E. T. Judd, Salem, Ore.; Miss Laura Rose, Guelph,
Ont.; H. F. Rau, Poultry Specialist, Tacoma; Geo. Heatherbell, Colwood; F. Dundas Todd,
Victoria; Prof. W. S. Thornber, Pullman, Wash.; Prof. A. L. Melander, Pullman, Wash.; J. C.
Metcalfe, Hammond; Miss B. Livingstone, Vancouver; E. T. Hansen, Duncan.
Fall Meetings.
F. Dundas Todd, Victoria ("Bee-keeping"); D. Harris, Vernon ("Bee-keeping"); Miss
Laura Rose, Guelph; Dr. C. S. McKee, V.S., Vancouver; H. F. Rau, Tacoma, ("Poultry") ; H.
D. Reid, Victoria ("Poultry"); B. Cartwright, Salt Spring Island; J. J. Wilson, Vancouver;
W. E. Buckingham, Eburne.
Officials of the Department have also been delegated to attend many of the spring and fall
meetings. Demonstrations and lectures have been conducted by them, dealing with the
different phases incidental to fruit-growing, stock-raising, dairying, poultry-keeping, etc.
Short Courses.
A new department has been inaugurated by the Department this year, which I think will
prove of great use and benefit to the farmers throughout the Province generally. I refer to
the " short courses," dealing with all branches of farming. These have been conducted by the
expert officials of the Department and deal with the different phases incidental to orchard-
culture, dairying, stock-breeding, poultry-keeping, etc. I am pleased to say that this movement
has met with the hearty support of the farming community, and it is the intention to further
expand on work of this description in the future.
Packing-schools.
Owing to the great success of a few packing-schools which were started last year as an
experiment, the Department intends to start a large number of these schools so as to cover
all the fruit-growing sections of the Province. Towards this end the services of Mr. Berkley,
of Okanagan Fruit Union, and Mr. Gibb, of Kelowna, have been secured. These two gentlemen
packed the two winning car-loads of fruit at the National Apple-show, recently held in Vancouver, and the Department is to be congratulated on securing their services. The schools will
last one week with morning and afternoon lessons of three hours each. In this time any one,
by steady application, may learn all the different styles of fruit-packing, and practice is all
that is then necessary in order to make him quick. A small fee of $3 a pupil is being charged;
all other expenses are paid by the Department. It is hoped that these schools will result in a
great improvement in the grading and packing of fruit throughout the Province.
Payment of Secretaries.
In order to have a progressive institute, it is necessary that you have a good man as
Secretary. There is of necessity a considerable amount of secretarial work entailed. Whilst
the position is more or less honorary, I would suggest that, where the funds of the institute
and also the work done by the Secretary justify it, he be paid out of the funds of the institute
an additional sum to that paid by the Department, according to the " Farmers' Institutes and
Co-operation Act." 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Keport. L 11
Canvassing for Members.
I would suggest to the Presidents and Directorates of institutes the necessity for a systematic
system of canvassing for members each year after the annual meeting. If divisions were made
of each institute district and each one taken up by a Director who would make a canvass for
memberships, I feel convinced that it would result in a material increase. I trust that you
will give this your serious consideration. Considering the benefits to be derived by becoming
a member of an institute, every farmer in the Province should belong to one.
Whilst the improvement from the point of membership is marked in many institutes, there
are some which show a poor membership considering the number of farmers in the territory
circumscribed by the institute. I would ask the Directorate of these institutes to try and find
the reason for this state of affairs, so that a remedy may be effected.
I regret that, owing to the impassable state of the roads, in two cases speakers delegated
to attend meetings were unable to arrive in time, which naturally would be a disappointment
to those who attended with the hopes of hearing the speakers. Also in one or two cases, owing
to mistaken instructions, speakers were not in attendance at the time specified. I regret that
this should have occurred and shall endeavour to arrange itineraries in future so as to guard
against this.
Co-operation.
I would like to impress on the institutes generally the advantage to be gained by members
in the way of securing implements, supplies, etc., at wholesale rates on a co-operative basis.
Several institutes are already doing good work along these lines. The benefits to be derived
by co-operation are plainly obvious, and I would therefore urge action by the institutes with
this end in view. ,
Departmental Literature.
The Department has issued during the past year no less than 57,851 bulletins and reports,
the great majority of which have been sent to members of institutes. The bulletins and
reports issued during the past year are as follows:—
No. 20 (revised July, 1910).    "Varieties of Fruit Recommended."
No. 26  (revised June, 1910).    "Practical Poultry-raising."
No. 27. "Incubation and Brooding" (now out of print).
No. 28. " Production of Eggs."
No. 29. " The Poultry Industry on the Pacific Coast."
Annual Report British Columbia Fruit-growers' Association.
Annual Report British Columbia Dairymen's Association.
Annua] Report British Columbia Stock-breeders' Association.
Annual Report British Columbia Poultry Association.
Annual Report British Columbia Agricultural Fairs Association.
Annual Report Central Farmers' Institute.
Considerable delay was experienced in sending out bulletins and reports, owing to press
of work in the Printing Department. This, I hope, will not occur again, as I understand
improvements have been made in the printing machinery in order to guard against this. This
explains the reason why you did not receive annual reports as soon as you might have expected.
A practical and up-to-date pamphlet on " Bee-keeping,' well illustrated, is at present in the
Printing Department and will be issued shortly, when it will at once be forwarded to members.
It is the intention of the Department to issue more bulletins in the future, compiled by
expert officials of the Department. It is believed that these will prove of greater service and
use than ones compiled from bulletins issued by other Provinces and countries where conditions
and methods of application are often quite different, and would therefore not justify adoption
in our Province. The different phases of fruit-culture will be dealt with during the present
year in bulletins issued from time to time.
Transcript of Addresses.
I am pleased to state that some valuable papers have been sent in during the past year by
many of the institutes. These are of much service to the Department, as they can be embodied
in the anuual report and prove of great interest to readers. I hope that each institute in the
future will endeavour to meet the wishes of this Department by sending in at least two papers
annually. L 12 British Columbia 1911
Women's Institutes.
It gives me great pleasure to inform you that the Women's Institute movement has proved
a great success. The ladies of the different institutes formed have shown great enthusiasm
in their work, and have taken up the matter in a thoroughly practical way. I look forward to
a great future of usefulness for these institutes. They have all started with a satisfactory
membership, and they hold in nearly all cases regular monthly meetings, at which papers are
read by members or guests on topics such as domestic science, cooking, sewing, care of
children, general management of the house, horticulture, poultry-keeping, dairying, etc., which
must, by their educative value, prove of great interest to those attending. These, though yet not
legally organized, have been treated as if they were, and the per capita grant has been
paid to them this past year as in the case of the Farmers' Institutes.
The services of Miss Laura Rose, of Guelph, Ontario, who has had great experience in
organizing Women's Institutes throughout the Province of Ontario, were requisitioned in the
spring in the formation of these institutes, and again later in the fall to further extend and
consolidate the work so successfully started by her in the spring, and a great deal of the
success of this movement is due to the organization abilities of this lady.
Expert lectures and demonstrations will be given at the regular and fall meetings of these
institutes in all matters pertaining to home life and the betterment of the conditions generally
surrounding farm life.
In conclusion, allow me to express my appreciation of the work of the Directors and
Secretaries of the different institutes, and to thank all for the courtesy and assistance extended
to me and my Department. I am sure that by cordial co-operation between institutes and the
Department of Agriculture much good may be accomplished, and this will tend towards making
the Department what it is my earnest wish to see it become, a powerful feature for good, and
tend towards the advancement of the interests of the farmers of the Province and the exploitation of the great agricultural possibilities of our great Province of British Columbia.
D. Matheson (Spallumcheen) : I have much pleasure in moving, "That the Report of the
Superintendent be adopted."
Mr. Scott: I think you should appoint a committee to report on the Superintendent's
address.    That is the method that has always been adopted heretofore.
J. W. Hardy (Kent) : A committee of three. I would move, "That a committee of three
be appointed to go over the Superintendent's Report, and that Messrs. Matheson, Collins, and
Catherwood be the committee."    Carried.
Mr. Craddock: In connection with the resolutions, of which you will receive a stencil copy
in a few minutes, I think the best way, perhaps, would be for me to read them out for you as
you take them up for discussion.
Mr. Scott: I think, gentlemen, we had better leave any addresses that we are going to
have until we get through with the business part of our proceedings and take up the resolutions
now. With reference to this, I should like to have an expression of opinion as to the length
of time each speaker should be allowed. The mover and seconder will speak and then any
others who may wish to do so, and then the mover will have the privilege of speaking again
last. I would suggest that you limit the time to five minutes, so that we may get on with the
business as rapidly as possible in a business-like way.   What is your opinion?
A delegate:    Give ten minutes to the mover.
Another delegate:    Five is plenty.
Mr. Scott: I suggest, five minutes to the mover and five to the seconder, and the mover
to have the right to reply for another five minutes.
This arrangement was agreed to without a resolution being offered.
Mr. Scott:    I will ask the Secretary to read the first resolutions.
The resolutions were then read by Mr. Craddock as follows:—
Feeight and Expeess Rates.
1. (a.) C. J. Thompson (Summerland). "Resolved, That the rates now charged by the
Canadian Pacific Railway Co. on freight, express, and passengers bear much too heavily on the
fruit-growers of this valley and the Province in general, this especially applying to local rates
now in force between interprovincial points and near-by points in Alberta, severely handicapping 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 13
the fruit industry in relation to a market that should properly be of the first importance to
horticulturists. The present low prices obtained for fruit this season, after paying freight,
being anything but a fair proportion of a return."
Gun-tax.
1. " Resolved, That the tax of ?5 be imposed on all users of firearms throughout the
Province, excepting farmers and fruit-growers and their employees."
Mr. Craddock: There are two resolutions that I have been reading out. The delegates
will most likely know who is to support these resolutions. The second resolution is evidently
from the same source as the first. I would like to know the name of the delegate representing
the institute that forwarded these resolutions.
G. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : The resolutions were sent in to the committee without the
names of the seconders. Just simply with the name of the institute they come from. I don't
know how we are to get over the difficulty unless some gentleman will just get up and second
them.
Mr. Scott:    Now will the Secretary please read the first resolution.
Mr. Craddock then read the resolution above, marked "1 (a.)  Summerland."
C. J. Thompson (Summerland) : I would move, "That this resolution be referred back to
the committee, so that they can deal with it and report to the meeting later."
Mr. Scott:    Will you appoint a committee to deal with it, Mr. Thompson?
Mr. Thompson:    Do you wish me to name one?
Mr. Scott: Well, I will name the committee then if it is suitable. I will name Mr. Lee,
Mr. Thompson, and Mr. Watson.
Mr. Watson:    I am not a delegate.
Mr. Scott:    Then I will name Mr. Laing.
Mr. Laing:    I am not a delegate.
H. P. Lee (Vernon) : I would like to see Mr. Winslow or some one from the Department
on that committee also.
Mr. Scott: Well, Mr. Winslow then, the Provincial Horticulturist. Is three a sufficient
committee for you?
Mr. Thompson:    I would like another one—Mr. Johnston, of Nelson.
Mr. Scott: Well, then, you must have one more to make five. Major McFarlane, will you
go on the committee?
Major McFarlane:    I would be pleased if some one else would act.
Mr. Scott:    Mr. Barclay, of Central Park, will you act on this committee?
Mr. Barclay:    Yes.
Mr. Scott: Thank jrou. That committee will arrange among themselves when they will
meet, I suppose. We will now take up the second resolution as read by Mr. Craddock. That is
also, I presume, from Summerland, Mr. Thompson?
G. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—This is a point which has been
brought up before at this Convention, I think, more than once. The object is principally this,
in a few words: In some districts at least it is becoming a nuisance for every Tom, Dick, and
Harry to carry a gun. Apparently it would seem to be hard on the farmers and the farmers'
sons especially, because we in the country like going at something with a gun, especially when
we are young, and it might be wise to encourage farmers' sons in this if it can be done with a
sufficient amount of safety; but it seems to me there are so many others that use guns recklessly. They come from the cities and into the country districts and they shoot at anything, at
any time, any way, and the object is to try and curtail or do away with this. I think that is all
I need to say on the matter.    I don't know who my seconder will be.    I hope he will turn up.
C. Scott, Galloway (Grand Forks) : I have very much pleasure in seconding this motion.
The question has never been taken up in our district as to whether it would be advisable to
prevent the carrying of firearms by law, but it is certainly nothing else than a public nuisance
to have people going in fear of their lives half the time. We have a large smelter near our
little town, and the employees of these works, a great many of whom are Italians, are nearly
all carrying guns. The result is that on a holiday or Sunday there is indiscriminate shooting all
the time. It is very unfair and very dangerous. This question, as I say, has never been raised
there; but I think it is a very good idea and I would like to see the tax made $10.    There will L 14 British Columbia 1911
be the question of its enforcement if it goes into force, as I assume it will, and I think that if
the Provincial authorities would properly see that such a law is carried out when it is on the
statute-books, it would do a great deal of good. I have very much pleasure in seconding the
motion.
C. W. Little (Mara) : We have had no trouble in our district, but I quite realize the
necessity of having some such law in outlying districts. But there is one point that occurs to
me, while realising the absolute necessity of farmers having a gun for the destruction of vermin.
It is absolutely necessary that farmers should have a gun at any time to kill hawks, coyotes,
or anything of that sort, but I don't half see the sense of allowing him to have any special
privileges as soon as he leaves his own property. If farmers are allowed to carry guns where-
ever they please, that will simply give others the opportunity of claiming that they are farmers
or fruit-growers and entitled to carry a gun, when in reality they are nothing of the kind. I
think every person should be allowed to carry a gun on his own property, but the moment he
leaves his own property let him pay a gun licence of $5 or even $10.
H. H. Matthews (Nicola) : I would like to ask my friend from Mara if he would put that
in the form of an amendment, and I would have much pleasure in seconding it. I think that is
a very fair way to arrange the matter. I don't think a farmer as soon as he leaves his own
land should have any privileges. We should try to do away with class legislation, and if you
make the distinction, as the resolution now stands, a farmer or farmer's sons will be allowed
to go anywhere, while the same privilege will not be allowed to men from the town, as it is
to-day. I think there are perhaps some who do not use as much judgment as they probably
ought to.
Jas. Johnston (West Kootenay) : As I understand it, the object is to exempt the farmers.
The resolution is brought in to prevent the nuisance of the reckless firing of guns, and the
suggestion would never be made to put on a gun-tax if it were not for this nuisance, and the
fact that the farmer or his son was specially allowed to use a gun would give sufficient
protection. It is not the farmer or his son who endanger the lives of others, but the men
from the towns who shoot indiscriminately. The main object is to prevent people coming from
the towns and firing at every pretext. I have been shot at by people of that class and have
had the bullets whistling close to my head, but I have never been shot at by a farmer.
A. J. C. Clarence (Peachland) : One thing I would like to mention, and that is that no boy
under sixteen should be allowed to have a licence. I have had boys come around who were
sometimes far too young to handle firearms in the indiscriminate way they do.
Mr. Scott:    I understand there is a law to prevent boys under sixteen carrying firearms.
Colin Smith (Kelowna) : I think it would be better If the age were extended a little. I
just rise to mention that.
Wm. Barclay (Central Park) : I certainly agree with the resolution that is before the
meeting, and I agree with this delegate down here that it should be $10 instead of $5. I think
it is little enough. I have been shot at myself like our friend here. On Sunday morning the
bullets are all around your head away at the bottom of the orchard, and I think it is high time
to approach the members of the Legislature and ask them to get the law in force. I have spoken
to a large number of the members myself, and asked to have the law enforced, but, of course,
there has never been anything done.   I support the resolution.
Major McFarlane (Shawnigan) : There is one thing about this. If we are to get any
benefit from the gun licence, there should be a heavy penalty on any person refusing to show
his licence to any person who is authorised to demand the same. Where it would apply would
be that any constable or any land-owner on whose land the man happens to be should be entitled
to demand to see the licence of the man using the gun. Then there would be little difficulty in
identifying any person who commits any offence, either injuring anybody or trespassing. If a
clause of this kind is not inserted in the Act, there will not be nearly so much relief as if this
requirement were imposed. At the present time a man goes shooting wherever his sweet will
leads him, and gives bad language to whoever tells him he ought not to be there. They may
shoot your domestic fowls and go away and leave them, and you can't do anything. But if there
is a heavy penalty for refusing to give their names and show their licence, they would be
obliged to listen to reason. I think that should be embodied in the resolution for the guidance
of whatever member of our Legislature will undertake to deal with it. A clause of this kind
should be added to the " Game Act."    I think that is a very necessary thing. 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 15
Mr. Scott: In regard to that, I would think that, of course, it goes without saying that
there is no use in having a gun licence unless the man having such a licence is compelled to
show it when called upon by a Provincial constable.    Otherwise it would be inoperative.
Major McFarlane: Should not the gun licence be shown to the land-owner if he asked
for it?
Mr. Scott:    I think an entirely new section would have to be embodied in the Act.
C. W. Little (Mara) : I would move, as an amendment, "That every resident should have
the right to use and carry a gun on their own land and premises, but beyond their own boundaries they should pay a licence of $5."    This would cover the ground.
Mr. Matthews:    I would be only too glad to second the amendment as it is read.
F. Cowley (Alberni) : I am very pleased to be able to speak a word for this resolution
which is before the meeting. I think it is the duty of every responsible person to seek to do
something for the safety of the general public. It is our duty as farmers to try and do away
with this reckless shooting that has been going on for many years. With regard to this resolution, I think it is better to adopt it as read here, for these reasons: Suppose a man sees a coyote
and gets his gun and goes after him. In about five minutes I am on my neighbour's land.
Where will I come in then? Will I have to get a $5 licence before I can kill that coyote? I
think this resolution is a very good one, and I will support it as it stands, for that reason.
H. R. Phillips (Matsqui) : This matter has been debated for the last two or three years,
and I am prepared to support the original resolution. My views with regard to the amendment
are the same as the gentleman who has just sat down.
E. Toombs (Salmon Arm) : I am not much of a gun man myself. I hardly ever carry one,
but I have six sons all very fond of shooting. If it comes down to having to take out a licence
for all of them, it would be quite a little, I think. As you know yourself, in certain districts
the land is getting cut up into 10-acre blocks. If a man could only shoot over a 10-acre block
he wouldn't shoot much. I think this resolution would cover the matter pretty well. I think
it is all right.
G. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : Just a word in regard to residents. The intention is to stop
reckless shooting, and I think that any resident who wants to shoot will be quite willing probably to pay a licence of $5. I agree with our worthy Chairman that once a licence is issued it
covers the duty of the authority to see that no shooting is done by persons who have no licence.
With regard to farmers' sons, I may say that I have five sons and not a very large holding,
some 50 acres; but, all the same, I believe this should go through.
A delegate:    Is that licence annual?
Mr. Scott: Yes, that is the idea, that it.should be an annual licence. I will now put the
amendment.
Moved by C. W. Little (Mara), seconded by H. H. Matthews (Nicola), "That every resident
shall have the right to use and carry a gun on their own land and premises, but beyond their
own boundaries every one shall pay a licence of $5."    Amendment lost.
A delegate: I don't think the meeting quite understands. I don't think the meeting
intends to vote down the original resolution. I think we are all desirous to prevent indiscriminate shooting without a licence.
The Chairman:    To make things absolutely certain I will put the original resolution.
The original resolution was then put from the chair and carried.
Railway Cattle-guaeds.
2. J. D. Paris (Surrey Centre). "Resolved, That whereas the railway companies have
taken no practical steps to improve the present cattle-guards throughout the Province, that our
representative bring the matter up again for further consideration at the Central Farmers'
Institute."
Mr. Paris: I haven't much to say on this. It has been brought up before at different
times. Just merely to have it discussed here, it was brought up at our institute before I left.
I think these cattle-guards are more of a cattle-trap. I haven't seen it myself, but I have heard
others say they are just a regular trap and the cattle get caught right in them. I heard of one
instance of cattle being killed on the track and put on the train and taken away, and that was
the last of them. L 16 British Columbia 1911
H. H. Matthews (Nicola) : I am not exactly seconding the resolution. The Nicola Farmers'
Institute did draw up a resolution, but it was a very rough draft, and it was handed into the
Resolutions Committee and apparently amalgamated into this one, which, in my opinion, is not
a resolution at all, but merely asks for an expression of opinion by this meeting. With your
permission, I would like to hand this to the mover and ask him if he thinks it will do. There
are one or two other resolutions that were handed in from the Nicola Farmers' Institute, and
I think there has been some misunderstanding by the Resolutions Committee.
Mr. Craddock: Probably you are all aware that last year, by resolution, it was directed
that the Deputy Minister should call the Resolutions Committee together before the Convention
to go through all the resolutions, so as to have them ready to be submitted on the first day of
the Convention. I think, if the gentleman who has just sat down would hand in his resolutions,
they could be gone over by the Resolutions Committee during the session and be ready to be
brought in later.
D. Matheson (Armstrong) : I think, if the Resolutions Committee were to meet, they could
be got ready for this afternoon. I think that would cover the complaint of the delegate. No
resolutions have been held back. Our object was simply to get them in shape for this
Convention.
Mr. Matthews: I don't wish to be making any complaint against the Resolutions Committee.    I think there has just been a misunderstanding.
J. W. Hardy (Kent) : I have been Secretary of the Kent Institute, which drew up and
sent down a resolution in connection with this matter, and if it is out of order to speak on
that, I would have much pleasure in seconding this resolution as it has been introduced from
Surrey Centre.
The Chairman: I will have to rule you out of order just now. That resolution that you
have now, is that the way you wish to put it? You say it is not a resolution really at all, the
way you have drafted it there.
Mr. Matthews:    May I read this, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Scott:    Are you willing to put that resolution instead of the one you have?
Mr. Paris:    It talks about one particular place.    It should cover every place.
Mr. Scott:    It should cover the Province, of course.
Mr. Matthews: That is one of the chief reasons why these resolutions were set aside.
They were local and we wanted them to cover the whole Province. We did not want the
resolutions to be local unless they were of special interest.
Mr. Scott: I would suggest that the delegates might confer. They both want the same
thing. If you would confer and arrange with the Resolutions Committee, and leave it over until
this afternoon, that will be the best thing to do, I think. And in the meantime we will go on
with another.
The suggestion made by the Chairman was adopted.
Reciprocity.
3. H. P. Lee (Okanagan). "Resolved, That the Central Farmers' Institute views with
alarm a movement recently advanced by the grain-growers of the prairies for reciprocity in
natural products with the United States, as such an adjustment of the tariff would be of
material disadvantage to the horticultural industry of this Province; and this meeting is
strongly of the opinion that not only should no reduction of duty on fruit be permitted by the
Dominion Government, but that immediate steps should be taken to place our duty on a parity
with that of the United States, which in several instances is considerably higher on various
kinds of fruit than ours.
" Further Resolved, That a copy of this resolution be sent to the Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid
Laurier, the Hon. Minister of Customs, the Hon. Minister of Agriculture, rlr. R. L. Borden,
and the several representatives of British Columbia constituencies in the Dominion House of
Commons and the members of the Senate from this Province."
Mr. Scott: You don't wish to speak to it at all, do you? It is not necessary. We all
want that, I think.
The resolution was seconded by C. J. Thompson (Summerland).
H. P. Lee (Okanagan) : I believe it doesn't want any talking about. W» are all in favour
of it.
The resolution was carried unanimously. p:
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y   « Bounty on Coyotes.
4. C. W. Little (Mara). "Resolved, That the Government be asked to increase the bounty
on coyotes, panthers, and wolves."
Mr. Little: Speaking to this motion, I may say that I was asked to present it to this
Convention, and no doubt there are a great many of you here who know more about the subject-
matter of this resolution than I do myself. But I think it is absolutely necessary that the bounty
on coyotes should be raised. The present bounty of $3 is neither here nor there. If a farmer
sees a coyote now he will get his gun and go after it, but the bounty doesn't make a particle of
difference. We should have such a bounty that they would be exterminated within a short time,
within one or two years. I think it would be a good proposition if the Government would give
a bonus of $25. In fact, it would pay to make the bounty almost anything if we could kill them
out at once. We must do something to try and keep them down among the settled districts, in
the organized districts at least. So far as my observation goes in a residence of twenty years'
farming, I have yet to hear of a wolf or panther doing any damage to farmers. On the other
hand, I know of thousands of poultry and some pigs and other things that are killed off every
year by the coyote, and I am perfectly satisfied that for every one which is killed by a wolf or
panther, a coyote kills at least fifty. I know of one case that I heard of this winter where a
coyote killed eight chickens the previous night, but I don't think I have yet heard of a wolf or
panther killing one in the settlement, although there is no doubt they do so sometimes. Certainly
I think that in this matter something should be done to protect the farmer.
D. Matheson (Armstrong) : I would move an amendment, " That a bounty be put on
coyotes in the organized districts." This question has been up pretty often during the last ten
or twelve years, but up to the present the Government will hardly make a move; and. as Mr.
Little said, in our district especially, through the Okanagan Valley and the Nicola Valley, and
around where people are thickly settled, where there are chickens and small pigs and the likes
of that, the coyotes make their home there. It has been pointed out to the Government several
times the destruction that these pests have been doing amongst the game of the Province, and
when we think of the amount of eggs and poultry and mutton shipped into this Province every
year, I should think the Government would be only too willing to do away with pests that keep
the farmers from going into these industries extensively. Take in the Okanagan Valley, I don't
believe there is a farmer but would keep from a dozen to thirty, forty, or fifty sheep, according to
the size of his farm, but as it stands now he cannot keep a single sheep. If he does he is going
to lose them. Some of us have gone into sheep up there. I did myself, but I had to go ont of
them again on account of the coyotes. We have also tried raising turkeys, but it is no use as
long as the coyotes are around. I tried it several times, and would have a splendid flock of
birds, but as soon as they started to race around, that was the last of them. I think it would
be in the interests of the farmers if the Government would take steps to put such a bounty on
coyotes that they would be exterminated altogether. Of course, I understand that one reason
why it is not done is on account of the fur value of the coyotes, and they are giving hunters and
trappers the privilege of shooting them; but I think, in the organized districts at least, they
should raise the bounty to $5, because then the Indians and other people who are fond of
hunting would make it a business to get after them, and they would be killed out pretty soon,
especially in the breeding season.   They could be easily caught then.
F. Cowley (Alberni) : I think the mover of this resolution has made a mistake in putting
panthers in it. The Government is giving $15 a head for panthers now, and I don't think it
would be reasonable to ask for more.
H. R. Phillips (Matsqui) :    What is the bounty on panthers now?
Mr. Scott:    $15, I think.
Mr. Phillips:   What is the bounty on wolves?
Mr. Scott:    $15.
J. Johnston (Nelson) : I know nothing personally of the matter, but I heard one objection
to the raising of the bounty, and that is that if you make it more, certain persons will start
breeding them. I would suggest to the mover and seconder of this resolution that they might
make it unlawful for any person to start in the business of breeding coyotes. It is rather an
astonishing thing, but I was told yesterday, when this matter was under discussion, that several
parties have said they would start in the business of breeding.
2 L 18 British Columbia 1911
Colin Smith (Kelowna) : I prefer to accept this resolution as it stands. There has been
an amendment proposed by the member from Armstrong, restricting it to organized districts.
A good deal depends on what is meant by an organized district. I know that we at Kelowna
are civilized; we look upon ourselves as civilized, but we are not organized into a municipality.
He should make it perfectly clear just what the meaning of the word " organized " is. I would
like to know what ground that covers. As the resolution stands, coyotes, panthers, and wolves
can be shot in any districts; but if the shooting is to be restricted to organized districts, the
result will be that these animals will eventually go into the unorganized districts, and breed
there and then come down again. I don't see that we will be helped very much by such an
amendment.    I rise to second Mr. Little's resolution.
Major McFarlane (Cobble Hill) : The question of what is an organized district was
referred to the Attorney-General, and he said that it practically for these purposes covered any
district within the boundaries of British Columbia.
Mr. Scott: I think you should make it applicable to the whole of the Province, and not
restrict it to the organized districts.
C. J. Thompson (Summerland) : The coyote is the best animal we have. If you were
raising fruit in the fruit-growing districts, you would know that if it were not for the coyote
the orchards would be overrun with rabbits, which damage the fruit-trees to a large extent.
The coyotes practically kill out the rabbits and now they don't bother us. It is the same with
deer. They would come into the orchards and eat off the branches, but now there is no trouble.
The coyotes are useful in keeping the deer and the rabbits out of the orchard.
C. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : A motion was brought in last year to increase the bounty on
panthers to $25. When it was brought forward, some one moved that it be extended from
panthers to coyotes and other obnoxious animals. It comes down to this: that the wisest plan
would be to increase the bounty to such proportions that these animals would be exterminated.
If you put a small bounty you get no result, and the Government pays more in the long-run
without doing any particular good.
J. S. Shopland (Comox) : There has been an increase in these wild animals. At one time
we used to have a bounty of $5 for panthers. We applied to have it raised to $10 and we got
the $10 but we didn't exterminate the panthers. We have got $15 now, but still the sportsmen
or huntsmen, or whatever you call them, say they can't hunt the panther to-day and make any
return for their trouble. In Comox every year we are losing sheep. These animals will come
right in close to some of the barnyards where the sheep are corralled. I have had them right
down within a hundred yards of my barnyard. They come right up and pick out the best sheep.
Last winter I lost one that I would not take $50 for that a man offered me the night before.
We got that panther, but that is only $15 out of $50. One of my neighbours lost a good sire for
breeding stock. I think it would be a good idea for the Government to put on such a bounty
as would induce hunters to go after these animals. There are a great many people who are
fond of going into the mountains hunting, and that is where the panthers are. These men would
enjoy hunting if it was made to pay, and when they go after a panther they are going to get it.
Whilst I am on my feet I may mention the matter of bears. I am informed that the Government has put on a tax for the protection of bears. I think that any man who would vote to
protect a bear ought to be pulled out by the head. It should not be allowed. Bears there im
Comox will come right in and take out the pigs on a dark night. They will take a matter of
eleven or twelve pigs in one night. They are just as destructive an animal as we have. While
you are dealing with animals, the wolf and the panther, put the bears in too.   Let us have it all.
H-. P. Lee (Okanagan) : With reference to this matter, I believe the bounty should be made
higher for one year at least, and make it worth while for farmers and huntsmen throughout the
w'hole of British Columbia to get out and hunt. In this way we could exterminate them. While
the bounty is $2 on coyotes, if a man sees a coyote he kills it; but if this bounty were $5 or $10,
he would get out and hunt them and they would be exterminated. In the course of two or three
years you could then afford to reduce the bounty to $2 again. I think if that plan were tried,
if the bounty were made high for a year or two, most of these animals would be eliminated
thereby.
H. H. Matthews (Nicola) : I think there is another point in connection with this. At the
present time the head of a coyote is worth about $5, and if a man kills one now he gets about
$8, counting in the bounty.    I think that is a pretty good price for a coyote. 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 19
Mr. Matheson : As to this statement that the coyote keeps out the rabbits, I can remember
quite well when there were three coyotes for every one we have now, and at that time the
rabbits were so thick the boys used to shoot them by the dozen and ship them in boxes to
Vancouver and other places. The deer were the same way. Now you can't see a rabbit at all,
and it is a pretty hard matter to get a deer, and we are only too glad to get a chance at one
once in a while.  The rabbits come and go.   It doesn't matter whether the coyotes are there or not.
Mr. Little: I may have been wasting the time of the meeting somewhat in speaking to the
motion without reading it. My instructions and what I was really speaking to were merely in
regard to coyotes. When I read this I saw the word " coyotes," and I thought that was my
resolution. It looks as if two or three resolutions of a somewhat similar character had been
incorporated into one, and in that way the panthers and wolves have got into my coyote motion.
The feeling in my district is that the present bounty on panthers and wolves is sufficient for all
purposes, and that if we are going to ask the Government for a little more money it should be
put on the coyotes. If I am going to lose my motion because of the panthers and wolves being
incorporated in it, I wanted to ask you how I can fix it. Perhaps the best plan would be to
have it sent back again to the Resolutions Committee and they can straighten it out.
Mr. Scott: Yes, I think so. When you mix panthers and wolves with the coyotes, it is a
different matter altogether.    Is it the wish of this meeting to strike out panthers and wolves?
Mr. Heatherbell: If I may be allowed to explain, the Resolutions Committee consider
panthers and wolves as destructive animals, and we decided to include them in this. There are
no other resolutions, so far as we know, with regard to panthers and wolves. There are no two
resolutions incorporated in this resolution.
Mr. Scott:    I think the best plan would be to put the one original resolution about coyotes.
F. D. Campbell (Maple Ridge) : Should we not have an amendment that would leave out
panthers and wolves?    I would move that the words "panthers and wolves" be struck out.
Mr. Scott: I don't think it is necessary to have an amendment; just strike out panthers
and wolves and put the motion about coyotes. Then, if anybody wishes, they can offer another
motion.
A delegate:    The committee added these words to the resolution.
Mr. Scott: The Resolutions Committee inserted panthers and wolves. I understand that
the resolution is really only concerned with coyotes. I will now put the resolution, and the
meeting will understand that it is not concerned with panthers and wolves. It merely asks for
an increase of the bounty on coyotes.
The original motion, omitting the words " panthers and wolves," was put and carried.
Puee-beed Stock.
5. C. W. Little (Mara). "Resolved, That to improve the quality of the stock, some
provision should be made whereby the Government could provide or bonus pure-bred animals."
Mr. Little: The movers of this resolution were not very specific, and did not give me much
information as to the ground I was to take in advocating it, and it is a little out of my own
line of business. I don't really understand the matter, although I am told that in other
countries where experiments have been tried along these lines it has proved a great success,
and there is no reason why the same thing should not be done here; but, as I have said, it is
rather a new business to me. I think that the best thing I can do is just to move this resolution
and then leave it to others to have a whack at it. I just wish to assist my friends from Mara
who are interested in bringing this matter before the Convention.
E. Toombs (Salmon Arm) : I take great pleasure in seconding this resolution, asking the
Government to provide a bonus for pure-bred animals. I think I may say that down in our
district we are now raising some good cattle that in the near future will make those that have
been taking the prizes at the fairs take a back seat. At least I know one man especially who
is going in for the best that can be got in the country. I think that the Government should
help all it could in the matter of improving the stock. I take great pleasure in seconding
this motion.
C. J. Thompson (Summerland) : Was there not a committee appointed a year ago to look
into this? I rather think there was a committee appointed to go fairly into this matter and to
bring it up at this meeting. Mr. Scott: I think there was a resolution carried and submitted to the Minister, but he
did not see his way clear to take any action with respect to it.
H. R. Phillips (Matsqui) : I think the getting of pure-bred animals is more in the hands
of the various institutes to co-operate together to get them in. I see there is a resolution that
the secretaries be requested to send in a report of what is being done along lines of co-operation.
I think that is the right idea. You will find more than one institute, along the Lower Fraser
Valley at least, co-operating along these lines. I think that is the best way in which this
problem can be handled, and, in fact, I think it is the only way.
Mr. Scott: It seems to me that the object of the British Columbia Dairymen's and Stockbreeders' Associations is co-operation of that sort. I think this is a work you should undertake
yourselves rather than ask the Government to assist you. I think this is a work that can be
taken up to advantage by the Dairymen's Association and the Stock-breeders' Association. It
would materially help you if you would all become members of the Dairymen's Association and
the  Stock-breeders'  Association, and submit your  ideas there.
D. Matheson (Armstrong) : I think that has been tried already and the associations have
not been very successful. They would send a man East, and sometimes he would give good
satisfaction and sometimes not. I know where in two cases he gave good satisfaction, and in
one he didn't. I have had some experience along that line, and I think it is well to act
independently.
Mr. Scott:    I would like to ask Dr. Tolmie if he would kindly tell us what he thinks of this.
Dr. Tolmie: In regard to the advisability of the Government helping the importation of
sires, is that the question?
Mr. Scott: Generally, and with reference to the importation of stock from the East through
the associations.
Dr. Tolmie: I think it is very much better for the institutions to take up that matter
and do it by co-operation amongst themselves. Some districts have been working along that
line for some time, and with very satisfactory results. As you know, an arrangement has
been made by which half the transportation charges are paid by the Government, or, rather,
by the different associations, when stock is imported by farmers from the East. I don't see
where it would Be wise for the Government to go any more directly into the business. The
Dominion Live-stock Government branch have given very little attention to the matter up to
the present. On the prairies they are doing a good deal by co-operation, and on the whole it
is giving satisfaction. They have now under consideration the advisability of sending to the
Old Country for a consignment of Shorthorns. There are now only two herds of these in
Canada, one at the Experimental Farm at Ottawa and the other at the McDonald College, and
they think it would be a good idea to go to the Old Country, where these animals can be found
in perfection. As I say, they have that matter under consideration, but nothing definite has
been decided.
G. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : Ours is one of the districts to which Dr. Tolmie has referred
where they are doing such work by co-operation. Five years ago we had the scrappiest lot of
hogs in that district that you could find in British Columbia. We imported some pure-bred
Berkshires, and now we have the finest lot of hogs you could pick up anywhere in the Fraser
Valley. The arrangement has been self-supporting. One year we were $7 behind, but that was
the only time.    I consider that the money belonging to the institute was well spent.
A. J. C. Clarence (Peachland) : One great difficulty is the high freight charges on purebred animals which are brought into the Province. I understand that the C. P. R. gives a very
low rate, practically free, to collies that come from the Old Country, and they might perhaps
be induced to do something for pure-bred stock. It might be a good idea if the institute would
approach the C. P. R. and ask for reduced freight rates on pure-bred stock for breeding
purposes.
Mr. Scott: I would like the Live-stock Commissioner, Mr. Jull, to address us on this
question.
Mr. Jull: The resolution before you has just been brought to my attention, and I do not
just understand what it is you are aiming at. Nor did I come to the Convention in time to hear
what Dr. Tolmie said to you. So far as I understand it, you seem to be asking for something
which it is almost impossible for the Government to do. As you all realise, the greatest good that
can come in the improvement of live-stock must come through the exertions of the farmers them- 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 21
selves. The Government, as you know, through the Dairymen's and Stock-breeders' Societies,
have been repaying to members 50 per cent, of the transportation charges. It is a very great
assistance to the farmer to have one-half the transportation charges on his stock from the East
paid for him in this way. It is an important consideration to the stock-breeders of the Province.
Also I may say that if the Government can do anything to encourage co-operation amongst the
institutes, or in any other way, we in the Department of Agriculture will be very glad to do so.
But I do not exactly see how the Government could directly undertake the importation or to
finance the importation of stallions registered under the " Horse-breeders' Lien Act." That is a
matter which will be taken up later, but it is, to my mind, purely a Stock-breeders' Association
matter. I don't see that I can say anything more on the subject. I am sorry that I am not in
a position to speak more definitely to the resolution, but I hardly see how the Government can
do more than assist the stock-breeders in the importation of stock.
Jas. Johnston (Nelson) : Has this matter anything to do with the question of pure-bred
stock sent from point to point within the Province?
Mr. Scott:    No, I don't think so.
Mr. Johnston: Is there any special rate given on pure-bred stock sent from one point in
the Province to another?
Mr. Scott:    No, there is not.
Mr. Johnston: I will bring a motion in the afternoon that there ought to be the same rate
paid in the Province as from outside points. I think it is only fair that a breeder within the
Province should have the same advantages as a breeder who lives a hundred miles in Alberta.
I got a pure-bred animal in the Fraser River Valley last spring and had to pay full rates,
whereas if I had got him from the East I would only have had to pay half-rate.
Mr. Jull: In reply to Mr. Johnston, I may state that the Stock-breeders' Association has
taken up the matter of endeavouring to secure better rates and better transportation facilities
within the Province, and if this Convention can see their way clear to pass the! resolution
expressing their appreciation of the action taken by the Stock-breeders' Association, it might be
some help to us in our endeavour. I believe it would be much appreciated by the Stock-breeders'
Association. I make this statement on behalf of the association, which is trying to encourage
the selling of stock within the Province. Along the Coast we have good dairy cattle, and if
better rates could be secured, or if the Association could see their way clear to defraying
transportation charges, it would mean a great deal to the farmers of the Upper Country who
are anxious to secure the stock we have on the Coast. This matter will be taken up, as I say,
by the Stock-breeders' Association, and I hope that before long something tangible will result.
J. S. Shopland (Comox) : With regard to these dairy cattle, we have gentlemen on Vancouver
Island who are prepared, if the Government will assist them at Quebec, to bring these Shorthorn
dairy cattle from the Old Country, but all the trouble to-day is at the quarantine. That is a
great expense. We have ascertained that the price in England and from England to Victoria
is about $700 a head or $750. We cannot buy the cows we are wanting to-day for less than
£100. In bringing them in, the expense is principally at Quebec at the quarantine-station. We
are going to bring the matter to a focus, and to interview the Minister of Agriculture to see if
nothing can be done in this matter. The cattle are kept at quarantine far longer than there
is any necessity for, and the expense is very heavy. If we can get this fixed up in any satisfactory way, we have gentlemen here who will bring these cattle into our Province, and that
will be a good thing for all the farmers of British Columbia.
The motion was then put and declared lost.
Entomology.
6. C. W. Little (Mara). Resolved, That the Government be asked to have specimens of
beneficial and injurious insects mounted and labelled in cases, same to be issued to the Secretaries of the Farmers' Institutes where asked for; said cases to be placed in the post-office or
other place of public resort."
Mr. Little: This is a question involving a principle which comes a good deal nearer home
than the last one. It is a matter that affects everyone. It is absolutely necessary that we
should learn as much as possible in every way how to take care of our orchards, and I think
one of the greatest things necessary, and at the same time one of the hardest for a man to learn,
is that if he takes a walk to the orchard on Sunday morning he finds innumerable insects, L 22
British Columbia
1911
thousands of them; among these there are as many friends as enemies, and it is one of the
most difficult things to distinguish which is which. As a general rule, when a man sees an
insect he kills it. He does not know the useful ones from the injurious. It is a bug, and that
is near enough for him. He doesn't know how to distinguish the good kind from the bad, so he
can't give him the benefit of the doubt, and kills the bug, anyhow. Some knowledge may be
obtained from illustrations and printed cuts. A man may learn about insects to a certain
extent in that way, but it is not very satisfactory, and it seems to me that the only thing to be
done is for the Government to try and secure specimens and put them into glass cases. The
resolution says that these cases might be put into the post-offices, but it has occurred to me, or,
rather, it was suggested to me by another delegate, that a better thing to do would be to place
them in the public schools. Our public schools are centrally situated and are as accessible as the
post-office or any other public buildings. Also there is another advantage, that it would be
educating the children, so that the parents would not have to go to the trouble of catching the
bug and putting it into a box and mailing it here to Mr. Hoy or Mr. Cunningham, and waiting to
find out what it is. If you had these cases set up in the post-office or in the school, a man could
find out for himself by taking the bug there and comparing it, and thus he would not lose any
time. In this way people would soon learn to distinguish which is which. This is a matter
that I think is most important, and while I may be interfering with the work of the British
Columbia Fruit-growers' Association, we must consider that while we are here as representatives of the Farmers' Institute there are a great many among them who are interested in fruitgrowing, I sincerely hope that this motion which I have altered will be taken up for discussion,
and that the Government will act upon it and give it, if possible, more favourable consideration
than any other subject we have in hand.
D. Matheson (Spallumcheen) : I have great pleasure in seconding the motion. I drafted a
resolution a couple of years ago and submitted it, about on the same lines as Mr. Little's to-day,
and I don't think there is much need of my saying a great deal as seconder, because several
others I expect are interested in the matter, and there is a whole lot to say. There are a whole
lot of pests in this country, more so, I believe, than in other places, and there are a whole lot
of them that we don't know anything about. They might be in my orchard and I could not
tell. The first notice I got of oyster-shell—scales we used to call it—it was in my orchard two
years, but I didn't know the first thing about it. I had never seen it before, but Mr. Hoy
happened to come around one day and told me what it was. We should have some means so
that we can get acquainted with these pests. I agree with what the previous speaker has said
on that point, and I think that same steps should be taken by the Government to enable the
fruit-growers to learn about these things.
A. J. C. Clarence (Peachland) : i hoped to have the pleasure of seconding this resolution
myself, but another has got in ahead of me. I may say that I took this matter up myself with
the Minister of Agriculture. That these insects, both beneficial and injurious, should be posted
up in cases in the post-office, as Mr. Little suggests; but we received a letter from you, Mr.
Chairman, stating that you had no funds to supply the cases, and although at Peachland we
have a man who is a very good man at mounting insects in this way, and has done quite a little
of that work, we could not find the funds to do the work; and I have great pleasure in asking
for the support of the institute in having this resolution put through. I think it would be very
beneficial. As Mr. Little has pointed out, the ordinary farmer, when he sees an insect, says
it is a bug, and he is going to kill it, anyway, whether it is a lady-bug or any other sort, and
a lot of harm is done in that way where insects are killed that are really beneficial. Another
thing I would suggest is that stereopticon views, magic-lantern slides in colour, might be used.
People don't realise what the animal is when they see it in a book, because all insects look more
or less alike on paper.
Major McFarlane (Shawnigan) : This is a very interesting subject indeed. I have heard
it held, and I have advocated it myself since I came to this country, that the difference between
these insects ought to be taught in the schools, and I think it ought to be a matter for the
Education Department. If the children learned the different kinds of insects they would never
forget it. It is hardly likely that the grown men, the fruit-growers, would bother themselves
going to the post-office to identify a bug. Let the children learn that there are certain insects
which are beneficial and not to be destroyed. I think that more can be done through the
Education Department than through the Farmers' Institute. 2 Geo. 5
Farmers' Institutes Report.
L 23
J. Johnston (Nelson) : In support of this resolution, I would specially recommend that the
beneficial insects be posted up. Most of the fruit-growers know the ones that do harm, but very
few know those that should be preserved. I would like to lay special stress upon the point that
the beneficial insects are the ones as to which knowledge is required.
Mr. Scott: This discussion has interested me very much indeed. It was brought to my
attention by the delegate from Peachland, and I may say that the Department is going to start
work of that sort; but there are forty-nine institutes in the Province, and it will be quite an
undertaking to make collections of all the beneficial and injurious insects and to have them put
in cases. I would suggest that the best plan would be to start the work gradually through the
horticulturists and other competent people, and have collections made of these insects by the
institutes or fruit-growers in the different districts, and have the work extended gradually until
every district is represented. We cannot do it in one year, but I may say to the members of
the institute that it is the intention of the Department to undertake this work. When it was
brought to the attention of the Department last year we were rather low in the way of funds,
but I hope this year to begin the work of having collections of insects made and put up in some
suitable place.   That is all I have to say on the subject just now.
A delegate: The schools are the best places to have it started. When you have this
collection in the schools the children will see them, and will inquire, and the teacher will find
out and explain to them. Then they will go home and talk to their parents and tell them about
these insects, and in this way the people will learn. The children will do better educating in
that line than any teachers or institutes. If these things are put in the schools, nine-tenths of
the fruit-growers may not go to the schools, but they will have little delegates bringing them
information. Another thing is that people kill the insects because they don't know the beneficial
ones from the injurious ones, and for that reason I think we should have both posted in the
schools, so that they can learn to tell them apart and be taught to kill the one and not the other.
Mr. Scott: These cases can be put in the schools where they would be a benefit to the
children, and also the fruit-growers who wanted to go to the schools and gain information.
J. T. Collins (Islands) : I am very pleased to hear what the Deputy Minister has said on
the subject. I think the different institutes might help the Department by sending in any
insects they find. Our institute is thinking of offering prizes themselves to the different schools
■of the district for collections of both beneficial and injurious insects, and any collections of that
kind might be sent to the Department. I think we might help the Department in the work in
that way.
W. L. Keene (North Vancouver) : I think the matter might be taken up by the institutes
themselves. If the members of the institutes would select insects, they might have the Government Inspector come and inspect and classify them. The institute also might buy a good
microscope for the use of the members, and in that way they could study the insects a good deal
better than if they were posted in any post-office or at the schools.
Mr. Scott: Before we put the question, I would like to ask Mr. Winslow to speak on this
subject. The discussion, Mr. Winslow, is on a resolution which reads as follows: " Resolved,
That the Government be asked to have specimens of beneficial and injurious insects mounted
and labelled on papers, same to be issued to the Secretaries of the Farmers' Institutes where
asked for; said cases to be placed in the post-office or other place of public resort." The idea, I
take it, is with reference to fruit-growing principally. The suggestion is made that it would be
better to put them in schools. As Provincial Horticulturist, I would ask you to say a few words
■on this subject. It strikes me the idea is a good one and could be worked out in connection with
the Horticultural Branch of the Department. As I have already explained, there are forty-nine
institutes, and it would be impossible to deal with them all in one year. It would probably
have to be spread over a period of several years, but it is a matter that has my most hearty
support.
Mr. Winslow: I am glad to hear that you have a resolution to that effect. The proposition
is one that is bound to help and to be of great educational value, especially in this Province,
where the work of collecting and classifying these insects is of such importance from a
commercial as well as from an educational point of view. We must have in the Province a
very large number of people who can recognize these insects on sight, and I don't know of any
ibetter method of having collections made than the one that has been suggested.    The cost of L 24 British Columbia 1911
such collections in each case would probably run to somewhere from $30 to $50. Through the
Upper Country I have been informed by many people who are well acquainted there that in
several districts there are no insects to be found at the present time. It is a question to which
the people are very much alive, and in no part of Ontario even are they so keenly on the lookout
to prevent the spread of these insects as they are in this Province. I can assure you that we
in the Horticultural Branch of the Department will do our utmost to assist the institutes in
every way that we can in that respect.
Mr. Scott: It has been suggested, Mr. AVinslow, that in many cases these collections of
beneficial and injurious insects could be made through the institutes, by members of the
institutes themselves, and in this way the cost would be lessened very materially.
Mr. Winslow: That, of course, would be a cheaper plan and probably a better plan than
to undertake to have the work done directly through the Department. The members of the
institutes would be interested in the work, and would naturally have better opportunities. That,
of course, would be the best method.
F. Cowley (Alberni) : As this is a question that is interesting to every one, I would beg to
suggest that each institute represented in this Province might easily get a collection of these
pests. Let each institute give a prize of $5 for the best collection and $2.50 for the second prize,
and then send them in to the Government. I think in this way we would get a collection of all
the insects good and bad in the Province. Then each institute would pay the prize money and
we would be doing something ourselves.
H. P. Lee (Okanagan) : In listening to Major McFarlane, it struck me that the Department
of Education could assist the Department of Agriculture by getting out literature that would be
of value in this connection. I would move, " That the Department of Agriculture send these
resolutions to the Minister of Education and ask his co-operation."
A delegate: If that is the motion brought forward by my friend there, I will have great
pleasure in seconding it. A great deal of good can be done by the schools as well as by the-
institutes.
Mr. Scott: I would suggest that we put the original motion, and that you put in a separate
resolution with regard to the Education Department after this is dealt with. I think that would
be the best way to do it.    Are you ready for the question?
The motion was then put and carried.
Mr. Scott: We will now adjourn until 2 o'clock. The committee appointed on Resolution.
No. 1 will meet Mr. Lee here now.   That is the committee regarding freight rates.
Afternoon Session.
Mr. Scott: Gentlemen will come to order, please. The next resolution is No. 7 from Mara
Institute. It is a little bit indefinite, but I will ask the delegate from Mara to speak to it,,
anyway.
System for Better Roads.
7. C. W. Little (Mara). "Resolved, That it is desirable to have a uniform system of
road-construction, and the Government be asked to devise a system which would give better
roads."
Mr. Little: This resolution is a matter which I have been studying closely for over ten
years now. I have been Government road foreman in our district for ten years, and have
naturally given the subject a good deal of attention, and so the delegates need not be afraid to
pitch into me if their ideas are different from mine. While we have good methods of construction at the present time and are doing a good deal towards procuring better roads	
Mr. Scott:    A little louder, please.   The acoustic properties of the room are not very good.
Mr. Little:    I don't know whether I can say that all over again.
Mr. Scott:    All right, just go on from there. 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 25
Mr. Little: The mover of the resolution merely gave me the information that is in the
resolution. I told him I had made a study of the subject and was just as anxious as he was
to learn anything I could about the construction of roads. As I was saying before, I have no
objection to the delegates here walking all over me if they want to, provided, at the same time,
I am able to pick up some bints for the better construction of roads. I can say without hesitation
that the roads in my district are as good or better than in any other district in our section of
country, but I know there are other districts that are not so well situated as we are. I asked
the mover of the resolution if he could suggest any method of improvement. He said that the
Government should devise methods for the systematic construction and improvement of the
roads. Where the conditions are the same, as, for instance, where there are stretches of level
land, a uniform system might be adopted; but this would not apply in sections where there are
mountains, or where there are bogs or sandy soil, or where it is all up and down hill, and all
that sort of thing, so I don't think there is any particular line that the Government can follow
in all cases. I personally am of the opinion that the Government has made great steps and are
earnestly trying to devise the best method of road-construction. During my ten years I have
seen a great improvement in this respect, and knowing their intentions and the lines they are
working upon, I don't see how the mover of this resolution is going to show us any better
method. I told the delegate so at our institute meeting; but still it is up to me to bring the
question up for discussion here, and if the discussion assists the Government, or any person can
suggest or advise any means of putting road-work on a better basis, so much the better for every
district that will have the benefit of it.
Mr. Scott:    Is there a seconder to that resolution?
Colin Smith (Kelowna) : I have much pleasure in seconding this resolution, Mr. President,
so that we may bring the matter up for discussion, but I do not see exactly how any uniform
system can be divided, for the same reasons as have been given by Mr. Little; but, at the same
time, in our districts good roads are wanted, and if a system can be evolved in this meeting that
will meet the case and give us good roads, I would be only too pleased to see it. I think the
manner in which the roads have been made up to the present time have been such as to meet
the requirements of the different districts affected, but our output now is doubling and trebling
every year, and so you see the situation is no longer what it was a few years ago, and the
system that has been used in past yeans will not serve much longer. We will have to have
something permanent. There has been no attempt in my district at least—I don't know how
it is in others, but in my district there has been no attempt to make permanent roads. The
population is increasing enormously in the Okanagan district and also the output. The roads
during the last three months in the Kelowna district have been simply more than disgraceful,
for they simply have had no bottom. They have had a great deal of traffic every day, and
this traffic has had nothing solid to go upon. It is principally clay and sandy soil, and the
moment the rains come on the roads are simply miserable. Now, we all know that good roads
are a necessity for the proper development of the country, and it is only by tackling the problem
in a proper manner that this necessity can be met. It is principally in order to have the matter
discussed and to bring it forcibly before the Government that I am supporting it. I know from
experience what it means to have bad roads. Had these rains with us come a couple of months
sooner, the whole of our produce would have been kept back. We could not possibly have got it
out. The road-construction is a very great problem in this country, and one that will have to
be faced by the Government at a very early date, considering the progress made in so many
districts; not in our district alone, but in every other district, they will have to tackle this
problem in a better manner.   I have much pleasure in seconding the resolution.
Mr. Scott: Gentlemen, I just want to ask your permission to go away for one minute to
send a telephone message. Before I go I would like to say, in reference to this resolution, that
I do not wish in any way to curtail the discussion, of course, but, at the same time, the only
method you can adopt in this connection is in the form of a resolution that can be submitted to
the Lands and Works Department from this meeting. If you will just excuse me for one
minute, please.   Will you take the chair, Mr. Campbell?
F. D. Campbell (Maple Ridge) (in the chair) : Are you speaking now to Mr. Scott's idea
of bringing the subject before the Works Department in the form of a resolution? L 2G British Columbia 1911
Donald Matheson (Armstrong) : Not exactly. On the whole thing. On the whole idea of
getting good roads. Several years ago we started a movement in connection with good roads
along lines similar to what they have in the Eastern States and in the eastern part of the
Dominion, in the old-settled places of course. We discussed it several times at meetings, but
there was not enough cohesion to cause the different places to stay together, and so we didn't
practically accomplish anything at all. But we discussed what was being done in other places
by means of co-operation and what it is necessary to do in the way of financing, because you
know you can't build roads without money even if you have the most practical man in the world
to direct the enterprise. You must have money in order to give your road a foundation, because
without a foundation it is no good. It is all right while the sun is shining on it and it is dry,
but when the rains come on and there is no bottom to it, then if there is any traffic on your road
it is destroyed. Now that the country is getting settled up and the people understand better
what is needed, I think there might be more cohesion amongst them, and I think it would be a
good plan if you would start on the same lines again. This is a matter which I think could very
well be taken up in the several districts. They know the condition of the roads better than the
Government themselves, and when we consider the amount of territory we have and the rough
country that the Government have to go over, and the cost of getting in to settlers, where they
probably have to go over mountains ten, twelve, or fifteen miles, and where a good road would
cost, I suppose, $10,000 a mile, it is almost impossible for the Government to do what we would
like to have done. But if we can co-operate in these matters and talk over amongst ourselves
the best scheme to adopt for raising money, especially in the organized districts, I know that we
would have better roads and more cohesion than we had when we started this organization
before. I
Mr. Scott returned and took the chair.
E. Toombs (Salmon Arm) : I think, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, that this resolution here
is asking the Government for a uniform system of building roads. Well, now, in almost every
district they have a different soil to contend with, and I don't see how you could have a uniform
system of dealing with all these different places. I think that every district ought to have a
system of their own to go by, because in some places they have level ground and in others they
have mountains; but I believe it would be a good idea for the Government to have persons to
go over the different districts and show the people in the different municipalities the proper
method which they should adopt for dealing with their special conditions. By this plan the
municipalities would be in a position to have the work done in a proper manner, and I think that
is all right.
A. J. C. Clarence (Peachland) : When there are roads running through low-lying districts
that get out of condition, I have been reading in some of the farm papers lately that they use
what is called a " King drag." It is made of split logs and is hauled over the road every two
weeks or so, and in this way the roads are kept in shape on low-lying land. A great mistake
that is made on such roads is that the crown of the road is not high enough. If the crown is
made a little high so that the rain will drain off, and the King drag is hauled over it, this would
give better roads at a slight expense. I would recommend that the road foremen be asked in
future, more especially on low-lying lands, to see that the crown of the road is kept higher up.
Mclntyre Dean (Saanich) : It appears to me that the mover of this resolution should have
started by apologizing to the Government for interfering with their work. We know that the
Government in the construction of roads have appointed engineers to go over them and to
supervise the work, and now we are coming down here to teach the Government how to do their
own work. The engineers who look after the road-construction are paid good salaries, and as
far as I know they do good work. Some say that the work would be better done if it was under
our own supervision, but I don't follow that. I don't believe in it. And another thing, we want
to remember is this: The road-work is under our own control. If we farmers want to control
that work and if we are in an unorganized district, all we need to do is to have that district
incorporated into a municipality, and then we can do the work ourselves. I don't think it is
within the province of this Convention to criticize the work of the Government, and this
resolution is certainly a criticism, in fact, of the Government's work, whether it is so intended
or not. Of course, Mr. Little very kindly said that the roads were good, but, at the same time,
the mover of this resolution is asking that the Government should devise some system by which 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 27
they may be made better. A gentleman beside me has recommended the drag system. That, of
course, we find in Hoard's Dairymen. They have pounded that into us for years. It is a good
system, but we can use that ourselves without troubling the Government about it. If we are
not satisfied with the way the Government are doing it, we can do it ourselves. That's all I
have to say about it.
J. Bailey (Chilliwack) : With regard to good roads, I think it would be an excellent idea
for the Government to adopt a regular policy of giving assistance in this matter to incorporated
districts, and at the same time to require that such roads should be up to a certain standard, a
certain quality. There is nothing which would do so much to enhance the value of farm lands
throughout British Columbia as good roads. There is nothing that would do so much to
encourage immigration and the general development of the whole country. As an institute, we
should do what we can to encourage people to come here and till the land of the Province, and
so reduce, if possible, the great amount of money we are sending out annually for foodstuff. I
think we must give the Government credit for doing as well as they can, but it would be a good
idea to adopt a general policy that if the incorporated districts would construct roads of a certain
standard, the Province would pay 30 to 50 per cent, out of the general revenue of the country
to help them. I expect there will be a policy of constructing an interprovincial road, and, in
fact, I believe the Government of British Columbia has already done or is doing its share
towards that project. We are also to have a local road along the coast, and a road connecting
with the system in the United States that will stretch all the way along the coast as far as
Los Angeles, and 1 expect our Government will take part in that. No doubt they will. I trust
our British Columbia Government will be up to date. That is what I would like to see. I would
like to see the resolution offered along that line, and maybe I will offer one a little later.
Mr. Scott:    Are you ready for the question?
The motion was then put and lost.
Report of Annual Meeting.
8. C. W. Little (Mara). Resolved, That the Department be asked to get out the Report
of the Annual Meeting earlier."
Mr. Scott: Before the mover of this resolution puts it, I may say that every effort will
be made to get out the report earlier. If you noticed in my address to you as Superintendent
this morning, I gave the reasons why the report was so late in being circulated. It was
because of the impossibility of getting anything through the Printing Department in time.
They had an immense quantity of work on hand and had not the necessary facilities for handling
it in a reasonable time, and that is the reason this report was delayed in being sent out tc
members of the institute. You may be sure that every effort will be made to get the report out
as early as possible.
C. W. Little (Mara) : I feel quite sure the explanation you have made is quite satisfactory. When our institute meeting was held the annual report had not been received, and
therefore we did not know what had been done, and so we thought it was necessary to ask the
Government to try and get out the reports of the annual meeting at least before the next annual
meeting was called. If it were in the hands of the members, say, a month before the annual
meeting, they would be in a position to know what had taken place, and in that way no doubt
they could save a great deal of time, and some of the resolutions I have brought here would
probably never have been taken up if our members had known what was really done at the
last meeting of the institute. I am glad of your assurance that it was not the fault of the
Department that we did not have it in our hands for the anuual meeting. I am glad to know
that we will have it this year in time for the instruction of delegates to the next almual
meeting.
Mr. Scott: I may say, Mr. Little and gentlemen, that they are putting up a lot of new
machinery in the Printing Department, and though the work was very much delayed this year,
they will be able to meet the requirements henceforth, and I don't expect that there will be
any trouble in getting out reports in good time during the present year. Do you wish to put
this resolution, then?
Mr. Little:    No, it is not necessary.
Mr. Scott:   The resolution is withdrawn. L 28 British Columbia 1911
Resolution No. 9 was then read by the Secretary.
R. H. Baird (Slocan) : In speaking to this resolution, I may say that I am not a delegate,
and I would like to ask that resolutions 9 and 10 be left over until to-morrow. The delegate
from New Denver, in whose name these resolutions stand, is not here, but he may be in to-day.
I don't know the reason for his absence, but I would like to ask that the resolutions be left
over.
A delegate:    The C. P. R. train is nine hours late.
Mr. Scott: If it is the wish of the institute, resolutions 9 and 10 will be left over until
to-morrow.
Clover-seed.
11. R. H. Baird (Arrow Lakes). "Resolved, That the members of the Arrow Lake
Farmers' Institute, in open meeting assembled, instruct our delegate to find out at the forthcoming Convention what action has been taken by the Government in respect to the resolution
on clover-seed which was passed by the Central Institute at its last Convention; and. further,
to take up the original resolution again if necessary, so that some decision may be arrived at
whereby the farmers of this Province can obtain clover-seed at first cost."
Mr. Baird: Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—In drawing your attention to this resolution,
you will notice that it is both a resolution and a question for the Deputy Minister to answer.
Before I can take up the resolution, I will ask the Deputy Minister for a reply as to what has
been done with the resolution of last year.
Mr. Scott: This question, of course, came up at the last meeting of the Central Farmers'
Institute. It was taken up with the Minister, and after careful consideration he decided that
it would be interfering too much with vested interests if action of this sort were taken. The
way in which he looked at it was that it is up to the Farmers' Institutes themselves to co-operate
in procuring seeds, etc., if they wished to secure the advantage of low prices. However, as
regards this, I may say that when I had this resolution come in I went and interviewed what
is probably the largest seed concern on the Coast, Brackman-Ker, and I found out what profit
they have been making out of clover-seeds. They afforded me every facility for examining into
the matter, and I have the information which, I think, will be valuable to this Convention.
They also said that, if necessary, they would send over their manager who has charge of this
business to meet you here, and to answer any questions with regard to the profit that they are
making on clover-seed. I will have the figures in a few minutes, and I may say that they show
that the profits the firm made on clover-seed last year were what I would call very fair and
equitable, and not at all out of the way. Perhaps we had better wait until we have these
figures. When we have them here I can tell you more fully, but if you would like to meet a
representative of Brackman-Ker and go into the question with him, they are quite willing to
send one over.
J. Bailey (Chilliwack) : I think that resolution last year was turned down because it was
a matter which the local institutes might deal with themselves.
Mr. Scott: No, the resolution carried. I was looking here in the report and see that it
was carried.
Major McFarlane (Shawnigan) : I may say that I have known Brackman-Ker since 1898.
I had a long conversation with them on this question of seed the other day. They gave me the
figures, but I didn't write them down. They showed me they had brought down the profits on
clover-seed to the lowest price consistent with profit. Their seeds are as pure as you can get
them since I have known them in 1898, and I am sure that when Mr. Scott gives you the figures
you will agree with me. Mr. Scott is not aware that I have been with Brackman-Ker. He
will give you figures that will convince you. I went into it closely with some farmers in my
own district who wanted to get clover-seed at reduced prices. They said, " What view do you
take of it?" I asked if they would be willing to sell to the farmers in considerable quantities
at wholesale rates, and they said, " Yes." If every Secretary of an institute would make
arrangements for bringing in quantities, they could get it at wholesale rates, and there would
be no harm done. It would be a benefit to the institute and it would be a benefit to Brackman-
Ker, because they would be selling a large quantity of seed. The quality of their seed is
indisputable, and to cut down prices below the point where profit comes in would be unfair,
and no dealer can do it. 2 Geo. 5
Farmers' Institutes Report.
L 29
Mr. Quick (Victoria) : I don't know really whether we are in order in speaking to this
resolution, if there is no resolution before us, but simply a question wffiich the Deputy Minister
has been asked to answer.
Mr. Scott: There is a question, Mr. Quick, but there is also a resolution which has been
put. It has not been spoken to yet. I was just making a little preparatory statement. Would
you like to have this information given from Brackman-Ker now? Here are the figures,
anyway:—
Red-clover Seed.
Cost,
Car Lots.
Selling Price.
Gross Profit.
Spring, 1909	
$11.00
17.75
18.22
Retail,        $15.00
Wholesale,   13.00
Retail,           21.00
Wholesale,   18.90
Retail,          21.00
Wholesale,   18.90
21   per cent.
Spring,  1910	
12J
15i        „
Spring, 1911	
6         n
13
3J
You will notice they are gross percentage profits. The cost of handling in the warehouse
and everything else has to be taken out of that. These are the figures they gave me. The
reason they gave me for making such small profit was this: I said to them, " Surely 3% per
cent, doesn't pay you." They said " Well, we can't possibly put up the price. People won't pay
it when it gets over $21 retail, or wholesale $18.90, and so we are selling actually at a loss this
year." That is on the wholesale lot. If you average it up the retail 13 per cent, gross profit
and 3% per cent, on the wholesale, they would probably make a small profit, but it certainly
would not amount to much.
Mr. Bailey: Did they give you to understand that they will sell to the institute at
wholesale?
Mr. Scott: They will sell to anyone. Wholesale is 100 lb. or over, and so my suggestion
would be that here is a chance for co-operation for any institute that wishes to take up the
matter and secure clover-seed at a lower price. I have simply mentioned Brackman-Ker as
being the firm that gave the information.    Of course there are other seed-stores.
Mr. Johnston:    I may say I bought at those prices.
Mr. Baird: I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the information you have supplied to the
meeting, but I will have to ask that the resolution be put to the meeting. We know that practically all the business taken up at this Convenion is interfering with vested interests of some
kind or other. Of course, so far as this clover-seed proposition goes, the best terms we have
been able to secure is 5 per cent, less than the retail price. You will notice quite a difference
between that and the wholesale price. We got that reduction through Rennie Bros., of
Vancouver. We got together and sent an order for 200 lb. or 300 lb., and that was the best
we could get. Most of you heard the discussion that took place last year on this question of
clover-seed, and I do not wish to prolong the talk over the matter this year, so I will simply
ask you to consider and to take action on the resolution as it stands.   .
Mr. Scott:    Who is the seconder of the resolution?
A. E. Keffer (Arrow Park) : I second the resolution. I believe the scope of the resolution
offered last year was a little broader than what we are discussing here at the present time. I
am fully convinced that Brackman-Ker through the ordinary channels of trade are selling as
cheaply as it is possible to do, but the intention of the resolution last year was to the effect that
the Government of British Columbia should buy from the producer in the East, so as to get it
at the cheapest possible cost, and distribute it to the settler in the same manner as has been
done in the Prairie Provinces when there has been a shortage of seed. However, I do not wish
to address the meeting at any length on the subject, but merely to point out the difference
between the view which was taken of the subject last year and the view you are taking at the
present time. L 30 British Columbia 1911
Mclntyre Dean (Saanich) : It seems to me that this clover-seed matter is a very nice
thing to talk about. This morning you wanted the Government to take up the matter of stock-
breeding, and after having tried to put the stock-breeder out of business you are now going after
another vested interest, the seed merchant, and you are going to put him out of business. Why
not do the whole thing at once, and ask the Provincial Government to open a departmental store?
Gentlemen, I think we are going a little too far in these matters, and are asking the Government
to take up things which they really ought not to be asked to have to do with. Three years ago
we were faced with this same problem in the Victoria Institute with regard to clover-seed. I
am not doubting your word as to the profit made by the seed merchant, but, as I say, three years
ago we were faced with the same problem. We didn't sit down and write a letter to the Central
Institute. Not by a long way. We at once took the initiative and asked the members of the
institute to forward to us a list of all the clover-seeds they wanted for the whole year, and we
simply said that we were going to get a wholesale rate from the East or from some other part.
What wTas the result? Gentlemen, there never even was a letter written by us to inquire about
the price of seed. Then clover-seed was retailing at 25 cents a pound. Before we ever wrote
a letter inquiring what we could do to benefit our own Farmers' Institute, every seed merchant
had a letter in offering to supply seed at 17 cents per pound, and that was what we paid that
year for good seed. Consequently, I think this question is certainly a matter in our own hands
for the individual institute to deal with.
J. W. Hardy (Kent) : Last year we took this question up and handled it to the satisfaction
of every member of the institute. We didn't come here and ask the Central Institute to take
it up at all. At the annual meeting we called a seed meeting, and that was held on the 1st of
February. I was the Secretary, and I got prices quoted to me and we got our seed, and we
saved, according to the prices of the local merchants, over one-third, and there is no reason why
we should lose time over the matter at this Convention. Every institute can do the same thing.
Co-operative work is what is wanted. Last year by co-operative work we saved something
like $3,500.
Mr. Scott:    Are you ready for the question?
The resolution was then put and declared lost.
Mr. Scott: We now come to resolution No. 12. Before the delegate speaks to that, I may
say that the Provincial University to be established shortly will take up agriculture and
horticulture. I do not exactly know whether this resolution contemplates having something
apart from the University.
HOETICULTUEAL AND  AGEICULTUBAL  COLLEGE.
12. Colin Smith (Kelowna). "Resolved, That this institute, believing that it is for the
best interests of horticulture and agriculture throughout the whole Province, hereby requests
the local Government to take steps at an early date to establish a horticultural and agricultural
college."
Mr. Smith: The original resolution, I think, read "in this district." The Summerland
Institute very graciously sent their resolution to us to look over, and if possible join with them
in supporting it when it was brought forward at the Central Institute. We thought it was an
excellent one and adopted it, so that it is not really ours, although I think the words " in this
district" have been expunged here. That was the original resolution, and I think, as it came
from Summerland, it would be more for the Summerland representative to give his views on
the matter. As far as I have understood, an agricultural and horticultural college is to be
established somewhere near Vancouver, and I suppose it would be too much to ask for another
one down our way. Probably it would not be as satisfactory an arrangement as to have it along
with the University. At the same time, I would like to say that the conditions in the dry belt
are very different from conditions in the wet belt—that is, on the Coast. The horticultural
college is really for the training of students, preparing them more for the University, and while
they will have the advantage of becoming familiar with the wet belt and with farms in
connection with it, still we consider that much of the knowledge which they may acquire will
not be applicable to our section. I believe that is the condition of the matter. I am hardly in
a condition myself to speak very much of it, because I don't really know how much the
resolution is proposing to ask for, but I presume that is the reason. I will merely move this
resolution and ask the Summerland representative to kindly explain the meaning of it. C. J. Thompson (Summerland) : I have great pleasure in seconding this motion. The
idea we had in mind when we passed this resolution was that, in view of the great stride
horticulture is taking in this Province, it was most essential to the industry that we should have
a strictly up-to-date horticultural college somewhere in the Province. In the meantime any one
of our young folks wishing to study horticulture are going across to the States, and we don't
think that this is quite the thing. British Columbia should be up-to-date in every branch, and
should have its own horticultural college, not only where our young people can go to get their
education in this branch, but also where we can rely upon getting professors to come to the
country to lecture on subjects pertaining to that particular branch of the industry. While we
understand that the agricultural college is to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of Point Grey,
I don't really,know that it makes much difference where the agricultural college is located,
though, of course, we think it would be better to have it in the dry belt. I think that is all
I have to say.
H. P. Lee (Okanagan) : The Okanagan Valley is in the dry belt and it is entirely separate
from the Coast. They might be a thousand or ten thousand miles apart so far as the climate is
concerned. Everything is entirely different. If the agricultural college is down here at the
Coast, as already proposed, it will not be a bit of use in the Okanagan Valley, Kamloops, Nicola,
and Grand Forks, or all over that district. At the present time they are sending their young
men down to Pullman College, because it lies in the same belt as the Okanagan Valley. We
don't send them to Corvallis, Oregon, because that is in the wet belt. You must have two
agricultural colleges, one at the Coast and one in the Interior.
A delegate:    Three.
Mr. Scott:    One on Vancouver Island.
A delegate:    And one in the Kootenay.
Mr. Lee: We have had labourers come into the dry belt from the Coast, and their work
has not been entirely satisfactory, because they did not understand our system of cultivation.
Your system on the Coast is entirely different from ours. What would be the good of a student
from Okanagan going to college down here? We are quite willing that you should have a college
at this end if you will ask for it, but at present we are asking for a college in the Okanagan,
though not necessarily at Summerland, Peachland, or Armstrong. We want a college in the
Okanagan Valley in the dry belt.
J. Johnston (West Kootenay) : In my opinion, it is better for all purposes to have the
agricultural college at the Coast rather than in the Okanagan. AVe are to have Government
orchards in all districts, and in that way the students will be able to study the different
conditions. Therefore, I think that the best plan is to have the horticultural college along with
the University.
W. Barclay (Central Park) : I think this is a little amusing. Some of the delegates want
two colleges.
Mr. Scott:    We haven't got one yet.
Mr. Barclay: The students will understand the difference between conditions in the dry
belt and the wet belt. It all depends on the teaching. Let them understand that a dry piece
of ground and a wet piece must be treated in a different way. Students will understand well
enough that you don't want to put water on wet ground. It is no use having two colleges for
that. Of course, it may be a little difficult for some of them to come, but that can't be helped.
If I live a thousand miles away I just have to submit to it.
J. Bailey (Chilliwack) : I think, if this had been a resolution congratulating the Government upon having located a site upon which to establish the University, it would probably
have met with the approval of the majority of this meeting. I think if we were to do that, it
would strengthen the hands of the Government to go ahead and establish one University and
one college, and then if we feel there is a necessity for another, I for one would gladly assist
any other person of British Columbia in getting anything that would advance their interests.
I would like to move an amendment congratulating the Government upon what it has done in
this matter.
Mr. Quick (Victoria) :    I will second that motion.
C. W. Little (Mara) : We need not ask for this agricultural college to be established at
any particular point. We are asking the Government to establish one somewhere within the
Province.   It is not a question where it is to be, in Summerland, Armstrong, or any other place. L 32 British Columbia 1911
Alex. Herd (Cowichan) : It seems to me that, in view of the intentions of the Government,
it is perhaps not quite necessary that we should pass this motion, but still I don't think it would
do any harm. It will indorse the Government's action and will encourage them in the line that
they are going on. It seems to me that, if there is an agricultural college to be established, it is
surely right enough that all the conditions should be considered. I don't think it is necessary
to waste any more time, but simply to put the motion as it is.
Mr. Smith: I don't think there is any necessity to go on with further discussion. We
expect that everything possible is being done, and I understand the Government has decided to
have one college in Vancouver—I believe near Point Grey. The proposer and the seconder
should be willing to accept that.   We can go no further.
Mr. Scott:    Will the mover of this withdraw the resolution ?
G. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : The original resolution as it was handed to us was revised
before it was brought up here.   The original said where it was to be.
Mr. Scott: Would you be willing to withdraw that motion without further action because
of the assurance of the Premier and the Minister of Agriculture that as soon as the University
is established they are going to establish an agricultural college in connection with it?
Mr. Smith: This resolution is only asking this meeting to express approval of it. It would
strengthen the Government's action if they had the approval of this institute.
Mr. Scott:    You say you request them to take steps.
Mr. Smith: At the earliest possible moment, if they are going to take steps. I fancy they
will take it up at the earliest possible moment consistent with their own plans.
Mr. Scott: It seems to me, gentlemen, that, in view of what we all believe, that the
Government do intend to establish an agricultural and horticultural college in connection with
the University, it is hardly advisable to pass this resolution at all.
A delegate: It strikes me that to pass the resolution would be to cast doubt on the work
of the Minister of Agriculture and the Premier.   It is just doubting their word.
J. Johnston (West Kootenay) moved, seconded by J. Bailey (Chilliwack), "That this
meeting congratulate the Government on the steps they are now taking to establish an
agricultural college in connection with the University."
Mr. Scott:    I will put the amendment first.
Mr. Smith: I believe it is understood that the proposer is to be allowed to speak a second
time, and that would close the discussion.
Mr. Scott:    Didn't you speak a second time?
Mr. Smith: I did, and I thought that closed the discussion; but, of course, I am not quite
acquainted with the routine work of this association.
Mr. Scott:    You can reply to the amendment now if you want to.
A delegate:    Would you kindly read the amendment?
The amendment was then read by Mr. Scott, and on being put it was declared carried.
Oeegon Apple-box.
13. Colin Smith (Kelowna). "Resolved, That it would be in the best interests of the
fruit-growers of British Columbia to have the Oregon apple-box recognised as the legal box as
well as that which is now prescribed."
Mr. Smith: In proposing this resolution, I may say that this has been dealt with, I believe,
by the Fruit-growers' Association, and they have come to the conclusion to retain the old box.
Personally, I am very much in favour of that, and when this resolution was proposed in Kelowna
it was for the Oregon box alone. I suggested that our own should be retained as well. In the
course of the discussion some question cropped up as to whether, if you allowed the use of the
Oregon box, it might not leave the door open for fraud on a large scale, and I suggested that
I might be allowed to consult with the practical men, the packers and distributers, who are
really more in touch with the wholesalers and talk this matter over with them. I consulted
with some of the best firms, and they came to the conclusion that we should retain our box.
Therefore, I don't know but perhaps it might be just as well to have this resolution withdrawn.
Mr. Scott:    Yes, I think so.    Were you at the fruit-growers' meeting?
Mr. Smith:    No, unfortunately I was not.    I am not a member.
Mr. Scott: As the Dominion Fruit-growers Act stands, you can use the Oregon box as much
as you like—not for export, but for the local market. ••V    ■:;<:■   V
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9 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 33
Mr. Smith: My greatest objection to legalising the Oregon box was that you might leave
the door open for fraud. As a matter of fact, I find that you may use any box you like. It
would probably be better if we would take the " Fruit Marks Act" and make it apply to all
imports from foreign countries. As matters now stand, I am informed that it is not necessary
to have any marks on these boxes when they come in, and when they are forwarded to their
destination they are perfectly innocent of all marks. A gentleman who happened to be in
Calgary at the time of the fair told me of some boxes of apples that came in from the States.
These had passed no inspection at all. They were sent direct to the wholesaler, and as the
boxes came out the agent of the wholesale house just stamped them as first-quality apples. I
think that is the sort of thing this institute should try to stop. I am sorry that there is no
resolution to that effect on the order paper, and I don't know but what it would be a good idea
to bring in one, or to call the attention of the Government in some way to the present
unsatisfactory state of the Act. It is, of course, a Dominion Act, and if this institute passes
any resolution to that effect it would have to go to the Ottawa Government.
Mr. Scott: That is just exactly the point. It is a matter for Dominion legislation, and it
is being put up to them all the time by fruit-growers and other bodies, and I hope there will
be some legislation before long. The fruit is brought in here without any marks on it at all,
and then it is taken out and a mark Is stamped on it, and I don't think that is right. I think,
if you would withdraw this resolution, that would be the best way.
The resolution was withdrawn.
Tobacco Industey.
14. Colin Smith (Kelowna). "Resolved, That for the development of the tobacco industry
in the Province, some Government aid is necessary to provide an expert to travel about and give
information and practical assistance to those engaged in the industry."
Mr. Scott: May I say a word or two before you start on that? As regards this resolution,
I think it is a question that comes partly under the Farmers' Institute work. Any place that
wants a tobacco expert to lecture or demonstrate might get a good man to come there and give
expert instructions at the fall and spring meetings of the Farmers' Institute.
Colin Smith (Kelowna) : I don't think that quite covers the thing. It is impossible, almost.
What is wanted is practical instruction in growing. This resolution, I am well aware, came up
last year, although I was not present. I may as well confess it is my first attendance at these
meetings. This is a work for the Government to do with something in the nature of the Fruit
Inspectors, men who will go around and teach the farmers how to grow this tobacco. Of course,
you are very well aware that in new industries of this kind it takes time for developing. I have
been personally interested in it for several years, although I am not now, and if you will bear
with me I will try and give you some suggestions of the growth of the business. This is an
industry that was started in 1894 merely as an experimental matter. Something like half an
acre was put in, merely to test whether the tobacco would grow. The results from that were
very satisfactory, and in the following year Mr. Holman, who has been identified with this work
since it started, planted 7 acres along with another person. Of course, they were novices to a
certain extent, but the results were very gratifying. In 1897 the acreage was increased to 18,
and it was then I joined with Mr. Holman. We went on with this industry something like eight
or nine years, and the experiments were made over a very large area. They were found to be
very satisfactory, and if we had been able to get some assistance from the Dominion Government at that time in the alteration of the regulations, we would have placed the industry by
this time probably on a very much better footing. This was not done, and for several years
we struggled hard against this disadvantage. Well, a representation was made by myself and
others to the Ministers, and for, I think, something like four years we hammered on this
subject of altering the regulations so that it would encourage the growth and manufacture of
Canadian leaf. After something like eight years of this they did alter it exactly on the lines
that we wanted, and in the last two it has gone into full effect in British Columbia.
Mr. Scott: Mr. Smith, I don't wish to embarrass you in any way, but the time is up
according to our regulations.
Mr. Smith: I am very sorry. I am very well aware of the regulations, but I think that
something should be done in this connection. I know that it was up here last year and nothing
was done, and I do not think that should be the case this year again. We ought to do something
3 L 34 British Columbia 1911
and not to smother an industry that would be of great value to this country. I have only to
give you the experience of Wisconsin, where thirty-five years ago the industry was exactly in
the same position as we are now; but they struggled along, and at last they got the Government
to appoint Inspectors to go out among the farmers and give them instruction in the practical
working of the industry. So it grew and grew until now it amounts to an output of $60,000,000
in Wisconsin alone. I am not asking any help for any particular small district. We don't know
what area this is going to cover. I noticed that experiments have been made in Walhachin and
in the dry belt at Armstrong, Summerland, and right down to near the mountain. Every
experiment has given us tobacco worth growing and that is of value. It only wants encouragement to other farmers to prosecute this thing and go on with it and demonstrate the good of it.
We have been sending our leaf all over the country, and wherever we have sent it they say it
is quite as good as the Wisconsin leaf.
A delegate: I rise to a point of order. I think a motion was carried that we should
adhere to the five-minute'rule.    I think our friend is exceeding that time.
Mr. Smith:    I am very sorry, sir.
D. Matheson (Spallumcheen) : I wish to second that resolution. I think I did the same
last year, and I noticed then that every one in the meeting took one of the cigars, though I don't
know whether they smoked them or not.
Mr. Scott: If you had brought a box or two down here, I believe that motion would be
carried.
Mr. Smith:    If they will defer the decision for a short time, I am quite prepared to do so.
Mr. Matheson: I don't know. I don't like tobacco, so I can't say about the sample from
Kelowna and Salmon Arm. I believe they wanted somebody to come and give lessons in how to
grow tobacco. It was defeated last year, but I think it is being put in more practicable shape
this year. I don't know that there is any sectional feeling about it, because it applies to the
whole country. I think industries like that ought to be encouraged. I don't think it will entail
any more expense than growing fruit. There are some people who think that tobacco ought to
be encouraged just as much as growing apples or wheat, or more suitable food for people, and
I think, myself, it is an industry that helps the country along. It is one of the industries that
make other countries rich and prosperous, and if we can grow tobacco to perfection in this
country, I don't see why it should not be helped get a start, because at present we are] all
ignorant about growing it. We are a northern people and tobacco has not been growing in
northern climates until within the last few years. I don't know any of us that knows anything
about tobacco-growing. I have grown some of it myself, but I don't know how. I just let it
take its own course, but I happened at that time to have a Bohemian working for me and he
knew something about it. I believe it is a tobacco country. At least, he seemed to know
something about it. and he made cigars out of it and said it was good tobacco. I hope the
meeting will see its way to do something towards helping the development of this industry.
C. W. Little (Mara) : Speaking to this resolution, I may say that I very much regret the
enforcement of the five-minute rule in this case. Mr. Smith has made a study of the tobacco
business, and he has a fund of information that would be very interesting to us all. He is not
asking for anything out of the way, or l" would not have supported it. I don't believe in asking
the Government for assistance in making exepriments in all kinds of things, but this is not a
motion asking for seed or anything of that description. It is asking simply for the same
benefits as the fruit-growers and other branches of agriculture are getting to-day. I know a
man who has been growing tobacco for twenty-two years, and it is good tobacco; but there has
been no opportunity for getting instructions or demonstrations, and consequently
there has been little opportunity to make any improvements. I believe the industry is a
perfectly feasible one for this Province. I believe it could be developed into a tremendous
crop in British Columbia, and if you will just look at what it is doing for Ireland to-day, and
what it has done for some of the States, you will have reason to believe that it is worthy of
encouragement. It certainly was a great assistance in Ireland and in some of the States.
There is another thing to be considered, and that is the labour question in this Province. We
have got to devise some industries, some manufacturing of some sort that is going to supply the
enormous amount of extra help that is wanted. The growing of tobacco would be one of the
things that would aid greatly in solving this problem, because its manufacture would supply Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 35
work during the winter season more than in the summer months, so that there would be
employment in its growth during the summer and manufacture in the winter, and in this way
the labour problem would be helped a good deal.
A. E. Keffer (Arrow Park) : If the Government has promised everything this resolution
asks for, I don't see any use in discussing the matter further.
H. P. Lee (Okanagan) : Although my friend from Arrow Lake says you have promised
everything necessary, I believe all you have promised was an expert to go around and give
talks.
Mr. Scott:    Arid demonstrations.
Mr. Lee: I believe that in the dry belt there is a large area of land suitable for this
industry. In my own district there are 1,200 acres capable of growing tobacco, and, as Mr.
Little has pointed out, it would do a great deal towards helping in the solution of the labour
problem. On the C. P. R. to-day, if you ask for a cigar, they will give you a Kelowna cigar.
Why? Because the C. P. R. recognise that it is a growing industry and they want to see it
encouraged. It means a great deal for the dry belt, and I believe that if a good man could be
got to go around and show them how to grow tobacco, they would be willing to pay a certain
amount for assistance. If the institutes would contribute towards paying the expenses of a
man to go around in this way, I think perhaps the Government might be willing to help us
also.
Mr. Scott: But that, Mr. Lee, is just what we propose to do if the work is done through
the institutes. It seems to me that the best way is to have a man stop in one particular district
all the time, and give instructions in the different conditions and incidentally in tobacco-
growing. Yon know there are a lot of districts trying to grow tobacco, and I believe, as a
matter of fact, that it will be very successful. I saw something of the fancy tobacco in
Walhachin this fall. This application has already come to the Department in the form of a
resolution or letter, and I believe that the most practical way in which the work can be done
is for the Farmers' Institutes to take it up. Circuits could be arranged so that a man could
go around through the tobacco district and show how to plant the tobacco and till the soil, and
I think the question could best be covered in that way.
Wm. Barclay (Central Park) : I spoke on this question last year, and I am only going
to say a few words on it now. They said they didn't want help. They wanted Inspectors the
same as the fruit-growers. What are Inspectors for? Surely it is to give instruction about
tree-planting and pests, and everything else connected with the industry. There are a lot of
people coming in and starting in this industry, and they plant orchards, but they don't know
anything about fruit-growing. We want men around who can tell us about tobacco-growing,
like the Bohemian whom my friend mentioned that he had working for him. We want to,get
more men of that kind and keep them. It is no trouble if a man wants to go into the business
and doesn't know how to grow it; he should get a man who knows and who will show him how
to grow it.
Mr. Scott: The mover has the right if he wants to say anything more. Are you ready for
the question?
The resolution was then put and carried.
Irrigation.
15. Colin Smith   (Kelowna).    Resolved, That this Central  Institute requests the  Government to introduce and put into effect a system of Government ownership and operation of the
water-supply for irrigation purposes by the consideration of reservoirs and distributing systems."
Mr. Smith: I believe the Commissioner is going to speak on this matter and I would like
to have it left over.
Mr. Scott:   Who is going to speak to it?
Mr. Scott:    I am told the Commissioner intends speaking to it.
Mr. Scott: Who do you mean, Mr. Smith? The Minister is going to speak, and, I think,
so is Mr. Drewry.    He is the Commissioner.
J. Johnston (West Kootenay) : The next resolution is one of our resolutions in connection
with the same question. The resolution sent in by our association is not as worded here,
because I found on coming down here that some of the things we had asked for were already
in the law.    I asked Mr. Drewry if he would be kind enough to come to this meeting, and he L 36 British Columbia 1911
said he would be very pleased. I think, if this resolution were laid over until we can secure
Mr. Drewry, that would be the best. Then we can see what legislation would be best for us to
suggest under the circumstances.
Mr. Scott:   Perhaps we could get Mr. Drewry to come to-morrow.
Mr. Johnston:    Perhaps, if he is not out of town.
Mr. Scott:    How would it be if you tried to get Mr. Drewry to come up now?
Mr. Johnston:    All right.
The resolution was left over in the meantime.
Increase   of   Subscription.
16. Colin Smith (Kelowna). " Resolved, That in districts where there is a Farmers' Institute,
so as to include groups of members numerous enough to form several institutes of their own,
and where such groups of members may reside so many miles away from the centre giving its
name to the institute, that it is impossible for them to regularly attend this meeting, the present
subscription (50 cents per head) is insufficient to allow of the expenses for holding the meetings
of the institute from time to time at places more convenient for these groups, and that to meet
such cases it should be legal for any institute to divide, by the vote of the majority of its
members, that the subscription be $1 instead of 50 cents, per annum, and that the Government
grant to institutes doing this should also be doubled."
Mr. Scott:   Resolution No. 16 has been withdrawn.   Who cancelled it?
Mr. Smith: It was cancelled in the institute. This question was debated and it was
cancelled.
Disteict Boundaries.
17. Jas. Johnston (West Kootenay). "Resolved, That when the majority of the settlers
in any settlement present a petition to the Gold Commissioner, that the Commissioner have the
power to define the boundaries of a district, and give to the settlers within that district power
to control the care of whatever cattle and horses and other domestic animals that may at any
time be found within the boundaries of said district."
This resolution, after being read, was left over for the morning, as the AVest Kootenay
delegate was not present. Resolutions Nos. 18 and 19 also standing in the name of West
Kootenay, were also left over, and resolution No. 20 was taken up.
Additional Horticulturists.
20. A. D. Clyde (Robson). "Resolved, That the Government be requested to appoint
additional Horticulturists in districts at present too large to be properly attended to by present
staff."
Mr. Scott: Perhaps before the mover of this resolution speaks to it, I may say that this
work has been very greatly extended since last year by the addition of two Horticulturists to
the staff, and as the matter stands, I have no doubt, speaking for myself, but that it would be
the policy of the Minister to extend this work; but this is put in a rather indefinite way. Do
you mean it to be a recommendation to the Government to appoint more this year, or exactly
how do you mean it to read?   It is certainly rather indefinite as it stands.
A. D. Clyde (Robson) : Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—This is something new to me.
This never came from the Robson Farmers' Institute.    I have no knowledge of this whatever.
Mr. Scott:   It must have been sent in, or how did we get it?
Mr. Clyde:    So far as I know, it didn't come from Robson.   We have no fault to find.
Mr. Scott:    Perhaps it came from the Boundary and Kettle Valley district.
C. S. Galloway (Grand Forks) : I don't know that there is any Boundary or Kettle Yalley
district. So far as I know, it is known as the Grand Forks district, and this resolution is
certainly not from there.    We are perfectly satisfied.
Mr. Scott: I think I understand it now. It is asking to divide the district at present
served by Mr. Middleton. The resolution was to divide that and appoint another Horticulturist.
The Grand Forks Institute is the Kettle Aralley Institute. It is not called the Grand Forks
Institute.
The resolution was withdrawn. 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 37
J. Johnston (West Kootenay) : I called up Mr. Drewry's office and he is out of town, but
he will be back at 6 o'clock to-night. I would suggest that resolutions Nos. 15 and 19 be put
off until to-morrow.
This was agreed to.
Straying Cattle.
Resolution No. 17 was then taken up.
Jas. Johnston (West Kootenay) : I am well aware that this has been up on several times
before this meeting, and has been lost on every occasion, but it is certainly a matter of great
interest in a section like ours, where the cattle wander around and where there are only small
orchards. I think it would be a great advantage, and there would be no harm done, if some
of the districts were made purely ranching and some purely fruit-growing. It would be a great
help to the small fruit-growing districts in the country. To mix ranching and fruit-growing is
a great abuse, as I happen to know very well in the Kootenay, and no doubt in other places. I
think that something ought to be done in this matter.
A delegate:    Do you mean stray cattle ?
Mr. Johnston:    I mean stray cattle.
A delegate:    There is an Act in force now in regard to that.    It is a Provincial Act.
Mr. Johnston:    I don't think there is any Provincial Act to that effect.
A delegate: If the catfle are wandering, you can enclose them within a corral and keep
them for thirty days.
Mr. Johnston: You get into trouble with your neighbour with that. AVe want something
to prohibit these cattle from wandering. I know this resolution was lost two years ago when
I was a member of this institute, and it was considered a great grievance in our country that
it was not passed.
Mr. Scott: The question has been up several times. I think some districts in the Kootenay
have brought it up where they want to have the right by a three-fourths vote of the settlers in
any district to establish the definition of a legal fence. In other words, they want to have the
right to not fence their property at all, and any cattle that come in from the range running wild
could be impounded, and their owners could be proceeded against for any damage the crops
might suffer from these cattle. That is a wide question. I take it, myself, the first thing a man
has got to do when he clears a piece of ground for fruit-growing is to put a proper fence around
it. The Government derives a certain amount of revenue from these lands which are used for
cattle-ranches, and if a man does not put a fence around his orchard, I hardly see how he could
expect to be entitled to legal redress against the owner of the cattle. I would like to hear a
discussion of the question. It has been brought up, as I say, several times in the annual meeting
of the institutes.
Major McFarlane (Shawnigan) : The law appears to be very clear. Here in the immediate
vicinity of Victoria, and within a short distance where there are a good many settlers with
orchards and everything else, the law says they must fence their land. If it is not fenced, your
neighbour's cattle can come on it if they like. A man must put up a legal fence to keep them
out. What applies on Vancouver Island would also apply to all parts of British Columbia.
You must have a legal fence around your crops or the owrner of the cattle cannot be held
responsible. It is the same, I believe, in most parts of Canada, and I don't think an institute
meeting of this character could possibly do anything to alter the laws in effect throughout the
Province. Cattle are allowed to go on unfenced land. That is their indisputable right. If they
go trespassing in orchards, the owners are liable if there is a legal fence around that orchard
or around that crop. If the fence is not according to the requirements of the law, the owner of
the cattle is not responsible. It is up to the owner of the orchard or crop to put up a fence as
prescribed by the laws of the Province. I don't see how you can do anything to restrict cattle
grazing at their own sweet will so long as there is no fence to stop them. You must have a
legal fence.
F. Cowley (Alberni) :    I would like to know what you call a legal fence.
A delegate:   4 feet 9 inches.
Mr. Scott:    A certain width between the top of the bars.    I forget now.
Mr. Cowley: I have had a fence 5 feet high and had cattle jump clean over it, and I have
had them shove right through a wire fence. No fence will keep them out. These cattle have
been raised in the woods and they will jump over anything, and I have no redress. L 38 British Columbia 1911
Mr. Scott:    Yes, you have legal redress.
Major McFarlane: You have the right to shut the cattle up and take good care of them,
and make the man pay for them.
Mr. Cowley:    There is no pound.
Major McFarlane:    You can shut them up yourself.
Mr. Scott: The Government has done something towards that in passing an Act defining
a fence. If you put up a fence according to the definition of the Act, then if these cattle come
into your place you can institute a civil action in Court and get damages.
A. E. Keffer (Arrow Park) : The weak point is this: I take it in these organized districts
some keep cows and some don't, but if the man cannot fence his orchard and there is a little
bit of pasture about, then the man with the cow either has to fence the cow in or to herd the
cow night and day. It is much easier for the orchard-men to fence their lot, I should think, in
any case, than for a man to fence his cow in.   That appears to me to be the position of affairs.
Mr. Johnston: In our district it is quite true what has been said. A man could fence his
orchard, but there are a great many cases of new settlers coming in, and they clear three acres
in one year and next year two more, and it may be seven or eight years before they have their
land cleared, and in the meantime they may have to be refencing every year to keep out one
cow belonging to a neighbour that is ranging in the bush. That is where the abuse comes in.
Such refencing would involve a great deal of expense, and it is only temporary, because it will
have to be enlarged in the future.
Mr. Scott:    Are you ready for the question?
The motion was then put and lost.
Dates of Meetings.
18. Jas. Johnston (AVest Kootenay). "Resolved, That the dates of the meeting of the
Central Farmers' Institutes and other meetings be changed so as not to conflict with the
municipal elections."
Mr. Scott: Before that is put, I may say that another time we will try not to do that.
Of course, the reason that we had the meeting at this time of the year was in order to get
them all over before the House was in session, because as a result of the meeting held here
to-day there will probably have to be some legislation effected. It takes a little time to get
that ready, and so we wanted to have these meetings before the House was in session. Otherwise the legislation which we wanted might have to wait for another twelve months. I may
say I was totally unaware of any municipal election at all, or I would have endeavoured to
have these meetings either a little earlier or a little later, so that there would have been no
inconvenience.   Next year we will look out for the elections and not have them clash.
Jas. Johnston (AVest Kootenay) : The explanation is quite satisfactory. Some of our
people felt that the meetings should not come at the same time as the municipal elections.
The resolution was withdrawn.
Protection of Streams eising in Railway' Belt.
21. H. H. Matthews (Nicola). "Resolved, That in cases where streams rising in the
Railway Belt are diverted from their proper water-sheds for irrigation purposes, that the
Provincial Government should take steps to protect the record-owners on those streams who
have acquired their rights in the Province of British Columbia."
Mr. Matthews: After the adjournment of the meeting this morning, I handed an amended
resolution to the Resolutions Committee. That explains the situation, and it would be better
than the resolution as it stands; but as it deals with practically the same matter as the other,
I would suggest that the whole question be laid over until we hear from Mr. Drewry ori the
subject.
The resolution was laid over.
Mr. Matthews: If I may be permitted to point out to those gentlemen who suggested that
Mr. Drewry be heard on this subject, what he has to say will no doubt be very interesting and
very important, but it will not be necessary for us to accept all of his views on this question.
It is a very serious question, a question of policy to a certain extent, and I think it is up to
this institute sometimes to make recommendations to the Department that has charge of the
work, even though our recommendations may not be directly in line with the policy of the
Department. 2 Geo. o Farmers' Institutes Report. L 39
Marking Boxes of Stumping-powdee.
22. A. D. Clyde (Robson). "Resolved, That in view of the danger to stock through eating
stumping-powder, that the Government be asked to take steps to enforce the marking of boxes
of same with warning of its poisonous nature."
Mr. Clyde: Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—I refuse to father No. 22, because I don't know
anything at all about it—at least, so far as the heading on it is concerned. After hearing the
Government being asked to assist in so many things, I feel that it would be overdoing it to ask
them to assist in the education of cows. I certainly think this would be unfair to vested rights.
We have a system of education under which men and women are brought up to carry on the
industries of the Province, and I would not like to interfere with the rights of that Department.
The reason this resolution came from Robson was simply because there have been some
complaints of valuable cows being injured through the careless manner In which this stumping-
powder has been left lying about. AVhether this has happened in any other place I don't know.
It is liable to happen any time and any place.
A delegate: AVe had a box of powder completely eaten up by our cattle, and they seemed
to flourish on it.
Mr. Scott: Last Convention, if you remember, there was a resolution passed asking that
printed instructions be placed on the boxes for the benefit of people not conversant with the use
of stumping-powder. I took that up with the Hamilton Powder Company, and they said that
in future all their boxes would be sent out with instructions.   May I ask if this has been done?
A delegate: They have sent me quite a number to distribute amongst people who were
buying stumping-powder.    I don't know if they have been put in the boxes.
A. K. Goldsmith (Aldergrove) : All the boxes I have opened this year have contained these
printed instructions.
Major McFarlane (Shawnigan) : I have been for a great many years using dynamite and
high explosives of every sort, and my experience is that if people will take ordinary care there
is no danger. The Hamilton Powder Company, I know, send out instructions in every box. I
have not opened a box where I didn't find these instructions. The only thing I wonder at is
that there are not more accidents among people who don't know how to handle these explosives,
or who don't read or follow the instructions. I have used a good many tons of dynamite and
almost every other sort of explosive for the last thirty or forty years, and I have never had an
accident except one missfire out of ten thousand shots. Some people have not very much more
sense than cows, and they are the ones that get into trouble.
J. Bailey (Chilliwack) : I think it is a slur on the institute to bring in such a thing as
this. It is not right to have it go out from here that the farmers are talking such foolishness.
The man who carelessly leaves a box of powder open and exposed ought to pay for the cow,
and that serves him right. I know it took place in my neighbourhood and, I think, in another.
Where a man carelessly leaves a box of powder out and a cow dies from it, I think it is only
right that we should pay.
G. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : AVe intended to cut this out, but after a little more thought
we decided to leave it there as a joke.
Major McFarlane: There are jokes enough outside of the Farmers' Institute. That is not
what we come here for.   We come here to do business and not to joke.
A delegate: I would suggest that this be withdrawn. Only a few years ago we were
asking the Government to assist us in buying powder, and now it appears some of us are so
careless that we leave it lying around for the cows to get at.
Mr. Clyde: As far as I can see, the only joke is in the heading. That didn't come from
the Robson Farmers' Institute. AVe believe that if this powder were marked so that people
would know it was poisonous for cows, it would not be left about in this careless manner.
Major McFarlane: Every box is marked "Highly Dangerous." That ought to be enough
for any man to take notice of and keep it out of the way of your children or cows, or anybody
likely td get into it.   I don't believe it would do any good to have it marked " Poison."
A. K. Goldsmith (Aldergrove) : I will second the amendment that this resolution be
withdrawn.
Mr. Scott:    If the mover will consent to that course the resolution will be withdrawn.
Resolution was withdrawn. L 40 British Columbia 1911
Telephone-lines in Rueal Districts.
23. A. D. Clyde (Robson). "Resolved, That the Government be asked to construct
telephone-lines throughout rural districts requiring the same."
Mr. Scott: Before this resolution is submitted, I might say that something has gone wrong
with the electric light and we have none in this building at all. Some accident has happened,
so that we will have to arrange to adjourn as soon as the light begins to fail us, and that won't
be long now, unless you would like to have a lot of candles placed on the table.
Several delegates :    Oh, no! no candles.
Major McFarlane (Shawnigan) : How would it be if we started half an hour earlier in
the morning?
Mr. Scott:    Is it your pleasure to go on with No. 23?   Shall we go on with it now?
A. D. Clyde (Robson) : In offering this resolution, I may say that this may be considered
by some of the delegates to be something of a local matter. We are somewhat isolated at Robson
as to telephone connections. We took the matter up a year ago with the Bell Telephone
Company, and the best proposition we could get was that we should construct and maintain
our own lines and guarantee the Bell Company $60 a year for connection with their system.
We felt that this was rather a hold-up.
J. Johnston (West Kootenay) : I second that motion. We have been trying to get some
arrangements for telephone connections. AVe have been forced to make an agreement with the
Telephone Company, and we have had to put in the line and pay $4 for each 'phone, and we
have got to pay nine months in advance, and they have put four people on the same line. I
consider this is an absolute outrage, but this is the only way we could get a 'phone, and I am
thoroughly in sympathy with the idea that the Government should construct telephone-lines.
These people have a monopoly. If we construct our own lines they won't give us connections
outside, and in the fruit-growing districts the connection with the city is one of the chief things
for which we want the 'phone, so that we can keep track of the market and tell when to ship
out, and so forth. It is an absolute outrage, but they would not make any other arrangements,
and so we had to come to these terms with the company and arrange to pay such exorbitant
prices.
J. A. Catherwood (Mission) : At Mission we started a line of our own four or five years
ago. There were eleven in it, and we put up our own line and got our own 'phones and started.
The B. C. Telephone Company came along, and we made an arrangement with them to give us
a long-distance connection and pay for it as we use it. In the district across the river they
wanted the company to put in a local telephone system, but the company advised them to put
in their own. The company say they don't want the local 'phones, they only want the longdistance lines. The local 'phone is run by the local company and we have the long-distance
connection.   AAre find everything satisfactory so far as we are concerned.
J. Bailey (Chilliwack) : In connection with this matter, I think there is no reason why
the Government could not well afford to give assistance to a rural community such as Robson,
which is isolated, or to portions of other districts, but where I live we have our own rural
system. We in Chilliwack have over 400 'phones in our local system, so that we have connection
with all our neighbours; but I can readily understand how in a community like Nelson, where
there are not a great many people, a little Government assistance would be in order, and also
in Robson. I would support the resolution asking the Government to assist rural communities
to establish local telephone systems and to get connections with the outside world.
G. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : I would like to say a word in favour of this resolution. AAre
have been up against it in our district. There it cost us $5, and we had to put in ten miles,
which would cost about $85. AVe know that 'phone connection means a great improvement in
any district. Those that haven't got it are always desirous to have it, because it is such a
valuable means of communication both for business and for social purposes. Sometimes we
find that, in business, having a telephone means all the difference between profit and loss.
There is nothing hardly that will help a district more than a telephone, and I will heartily
support any measure asking the Government to give assistance to rural communities for that
purpose. I am heartily in favour of a complete system of Government-owned telephones, but
small measure is better than nothing, and therefore I will support this resolution. 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 41
A. E. Keffer (Arrow Park) : I would like to ask what became of the resolution sent in
by Arrow Park urging the Government ownership of 'phones. I think that is the true solution
of the matter. I believe boards of trade throughout the country have been memorializing the
Government to that effect, asking them to introduce a policy of Government ownership of
telephones; but I am heartily in sympathy with this resolution, if it is all we can get. I would
go in for asking the Government to grant assistance for local districts to place 'phones in many
places. In the Arrow Lakes there is a distance of 120 miles that settlers have no telephone, and
in some cases they have no telegraph either, except at the little country railway-station. In
case of sickness or anything requiring prompt action, you can easily see what that means. It
is a great hardship for these out-of-the-way places to be unable to get telephone communication.
But while I am supporting this resolution as it stands, I would like, at the same time, to ask
why the other resolution was shut out asking for Government ownership of 'phones.
Mr. Heatherbell: In reply, I would say, and I think the rest of the committee will bear
me out, we wanted to incorporate two resolutions into one, so far as we could, in order to
expedite business, and I think that was done in this case.    Perhaps Mr. Johnston will recollect.
Mr. Johnston: I think that any person who wishes for Government ownership should
offer an amendment to this resolution. The committee simply wanted to cut down the
resolutions so as not to have too many on the one subject. If any one thinks this resolution
doesn't carry out their Government-ownership idea they can move an amendment.
H. P. Lee (Okanagan) : I might tell you for the information of outlying districts that
Okanagan Aralley has had a Government-owned telephone system for the last four or five years.
The Dominion Government built it and operate it, and we are charged when we use it. Any
one wanting to call Penticton can do so for 25 cents. Each town is connected with the Government telephone, and there is a switchboard in each town, so it is easily operated. I believe if
these outlying districts would get into communication with their member at Ottawa, they
might have this same telephone system in their own dstricts.
H. H. Matthews (Nicola) : I might say that what has been said by the gentleman who
has just sat down is perfectly correct. The Dominion Government has installed a central system
in the Town of Merritt within the last month, with 160 'phones. They have an Inspector who
resides at Summerland, and It seems to me that perhaps if these gentlemen from Robson would
get into communication with him they might be able to get something done. I agree with them
in their stand. I would like to ask a question. Mr. Heatherbell has mentioned a $5 rate. Is
that for a month or a year?
Mr. Heatherbell:    $5 a month; $60 a year.
Alex. Herd (Cowichan) : I would like to say a word in support of that motion, though I
don't think it goes quite far enough. I believe that we should ask the Government to acquire
all existing lines and go in for an energetic policy of extension of the system. I would have
much pleasure in moving an amendment if it is in order. We haven't had much difficulty,
however, at Cowichan, because we have a fairly good service. In the past we have been up
against it, but now we have a fairly good service and connection with the city at reasonable
rates. At the same time, I know there are other districts not so well off as we are, and I,
believe it would be much better if the Government would own all these systems. The telephone
is to-day almost a necessity for the farmers, and if this Convention can pass such a resolution
it might have some weight with the Government. I have much pleasure in moving this
amendment.
F. D. Campbell (Hammond) : I don't quite make out from the remarks which Government
you mean.   Is it the Provincial or the Dominion?
Mr. Bailey: The idea was to get telephone connections for the rural communities of the
Province. If there are existing lines belonging to the Dominion, that is all right, and if these
could be extended, that would be all right; but we want the rural communities to get telephone
connection in some way, and the resolution is asking the Provincial Government to assist
towards that object.
Mr. Matthews: We have had a Dominion telephone system in our district for eight or nine
years. It was got through the member sitting for the district at the time, Mr. Bostock, and it
has since been greatly increased. There is connection from Kamloops through Grande Prairie
and up the North Thompson sixty or seventy miles.    It is quite an expensive undertaking. L 42 British Columbia 1911
Mr. Scott:    Is the regular charge 25 cents for two minutes?
Mr. Matthews: Three minutes. And they have in some localities a flat rate between small
towns of $4 or $5 a month with private 'phones. The charge to Kamloops is 25 cents for three
minutes.   It is 15 cents between Nicola and Merritt, eight miles.
Mr. Lee: All the farmers between these two villages have 'phones of their own and pay
so much a month. The arrangement is that they pay $3 a month to the Dominion Government,
and if any outsider wants to use his 'phone he can charge him 25 cents, and he gets a commission
of 5 cents per message. Between Vernon and Penticton, eighty miles, you can talk for 25 cents.
They have three wires between Vernon and Kelowna.   It is a good system.
Mr. Heatherbell: For the information of those members who do not know about the
Dominion system, I may tell you that we have the Dominion telephone-line at Metchosin. The
Dominion Government put it in and operate it, and we pay 10 cents whenever we want to use it
for connection with the city.
Mr. Scott:    There was an amendment submitted to the meeting.    Do you wish it put?
Moved by Alex. Herd (Cowichan), seconded by A. E. Keffer (Arrow Park), "That we
recommend the acquisition by the Provincial Government of all existing telephone systems in
the Province and the extension of the service."    Carried unanimously.
Moved by J. Bailey (Chilliwack), seconded by H. R. Phillips (Matsqui), "That we adjourn
to 10 o'clock to-morrow morning."   Carried.
Mr. Scott: The Minister says he will be very pleased to come and address the Convention
at 3 o'clock to-morrow. Also, please, will you all make out your expense accounts in good time
to-morrow and give them to the Secretary, Mr. Craddock, so that he can go over them and pay
them before you leave.
WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 11th, 1911.
At 10 a.m. the chair was taken by Mr. W. E. Scott, Deputy Minister of Agriculture, who
called the meeting to order.
Mr. Scott: Before we go on with the resolutions, Mr. William Townsley, of the Mutual
Fire Insurance Company of British Columbia, which, of course, is purely a farmers' association,
is here to-day. If you remember, last year Mr. Metcalfe addressed you on the subject. Is it
your wish that Mr. Townsley address you now?
It was moved and seconded that Mr. Townsley be heard now.
The motion was carried.
Address by Mr. W. Townsley.
Mr. Townsley: Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—On behalf of the company, I wish to thank
you for your courtesy in allowing me to make a few remarks this morning. I want to say,
gentlemen, that I feel at home amongst farmers, because I was a farmer all my life until
I left the Old Country a couple of years ago, farming 600 acres, and I only left to
fulfil a promise to my father-in-law to come and live in British Columbia. I have
been associated with farming in all its branches, and I feel quite at home amongst
farmers, and I may say that since coming out here I have found them in no less
progressive condition than in the Old Country, nor worse business-men. Most of our
directors are connected with the land. Most of them are prominent farmers. I have been
mixing with committees for many years in the Old Country, and I must say since coming out
here I find that the business of our company, at all events, has been managed by the directors
with as much judgment and as much care as ever I saw business managed, and every question
brought before our Board has received most careful consideration, and in every respect business
has been done as it should be done. The directors wish me to come here in order to meet some
of the farmers of British Columbia and become acquainted, as it is almost impossible for the
manager to get around to all places and make personal acquaintances on the spot. On an
occasion like this, when so many come down to the annual meeting, I think it is a good time
to make your acquaintance, as there are many here whom I might not otherwise have an
opportunity to meet.    The prosperity of the company, as you know, is largely based upon its 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 43
interest in the individual policyholder. That is the basis of our work. The prosperity which
it has enjoyed in the past is largely to be attributed to the late manager whom I succeeded,
Mr. Hubbs, and I do not hope to be able to carry on the business any better than he did.
Everything was done by him perfectly and as it should be, and the best I can hope to be able
to claim is that I may be able to carry it on in the same way as in the past. The year which
has just terminated has been one of great prosperity, and the number of policies issued has been
greater than in any former year. There has been an increase of over $200,000 in the risks.
One branch alone brought in $60,000, and all that is of the very best class of farmers' insurance.
Our business is spreading rapidly. AVe are constantly receiving letters from people asking us
to put agents in their districts. The chief trouble is that risks are coming in so fast that it is
almost impossible to have them inspected. To give you an instance of the advantage which
the farmers derive from insurance under this system, I will tell you of one man. He had $1,500
insurance already and he took $4,500 from us, which was all we could give him. He took it at
the ordinary rate of $4 per thousand, which we considered a good risk at that figure. Afterwards he wanted another $6,000, which we were unable to give him, as we do not go above the
$4,500. When he made application to other companies, he tried five different companies, and
they all asked him $60 per thousand for six months' insurance. So you cannot be surprised if
farmers in the outlying districts are asking for some relief and are coming in so fast that it is
difficult for us to get some of these properties in the outlying districts inspected. There is one
matter in connection with our insurance business which I would like particularly to bring before
you. We lose a certain number of policies through people wanting loans. A man wants to raise,
say, $1,000. He may have property worth $20,000, but before he can get the loan he is often
compelled to cancel his insurance policy in the Mutual Fire Insurance Company and take out one
in an old-line company. We have had several instances of that. I had a man in my office the
other day who was compelled to do that very thing. He had to do it because he wanted $1,000.
He said that as soon as he got the money paid off he would come back to us. Some of these
companies have the impudence to tell farmers that they don't consider our company any good.
If anybody comes to you telling you that our company is not good enough, I advise you to tell
them to get out. What better security could there be than the premium notes of the best farmers
of British Columbia? To say that these premium notes are not good enough security for $1,000
or $2,000 is absurd. As you know, every one of these notes would have to be paid before
anybody who is insured with the company could lose a single dollar. So it is merely a piece
of impudence for anybody to tell you that the insurance is not good. That story is simply
spread around by agents for other companies because they want to get their commissions out of
the insurance, but I hope that nobody in the future will allow themselves to be deceived by
such absurd statements. Such statements as these will have to be put a stop to, and I assure
you that we will do the best we can to have them stopped. You may be quite sure, and everybody who deals with the company may be quite sure, that they are getting excellent insurance
at the lowest possible rate, and from the amount of business which is coming in we may be
quite certain that this fact is being appreciated by the farmers of the Province.
Mr. Scott: Gentlemen, Mr. Drewry will be up at half-past 11, and while we are waiting we
may as well take up the next resolution.
24. (Salt Spring Island). Mr. Scott: I regret to say that the delegate from Salt Spring
Island has been called away to attend a Coroner's inquest, but he will be back to-day. I will
ask the Secretary to hold that resolution over and to read resolution No. 25.
W. V. Jackson (Creston) : Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—The delegate from Cranbrook
is not here, and I would like to ask the meeting to lay this resolution over until to-morrow at
any rate, to see if he will come.
Mr. Scott: Very well. The resolution will be laid over. I see that the next resolution,
No. 26, also stands in the name of the delegate from Cranbrook, and I suppose it also will have
to be laid over.   We will therefore proceed to No. 27, which I will ask the Secretary to read.
Freight Charges on Stumping-powder.
27. A. E. Keffer (Arrow Park). Resolved, That the Government of this Province be asked
to arrange with the powder company to pay freight charges on all stumping-powder supplied to
members of the institute." L 44 British Columbia 1911
Mr. Keffer: Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—This resolution, or one practically the same,
was up before you last year, and we have not as yet got any attention from the Government in
the matter. The question is of such importance to the Province that I feel compelled to bring
the matter again before you. Stumping-powder has been decided by the majority of the settlers
clearing land to be the most effective and cheapest means of accomplishing that object. I myself
have figured it out that it can be done by stumping-powder at least 50 per cent, cheaper than
by any other means. We all know what a valuable asset to the Province this cleared land
becomes. AVe all know that a settler goes on land for which he paid $10 to $100 an acre, and
that to clear it costs him at least $75 to $150 an acre. This cleared land, then, must be a
valuable asset. The question, then, with which the Government should deal is as to whether
it is advisable to encourage the settler in clearing this land and as to what would be the best
method of doing so. The settler, I assure you, is up against a hard proposition. I pointed
that out last year. When he comes to go on his 10 acres or 100 acres, as the case may be, he
has a lot of hard work before him, and in most cases he has not very much money. Many
people will tell you that they can clear the land for $50 an acre, but I have my doubts about
that. The fact is that $150 an acre would generally be a good deal nearer the mark, and the man
Who takes up land generally has to go out and earn money in order to carry out this clearing
business. The people who come here to farm lands in these districts are people who ought to be
encouraged. There is not a shadow of doubt about that. Now, what are we asking from the
Government? Are we asking an unreasonable thing or are we not? I take it the Government
are alive to the fact that agriculture should be the basic industry in this Province. Why, you
will find it in the report that last year there was over $10,000,000 of farm produce imported into
this Province, and this year the amount will be somewhere about $15,000,000. That should all
have been grown in this Province, but it will be some years before the Province will be able to
grow what it needs for itself unless some means is devised whereby this land can be cleared.
Now, I am satisfied that the Government would find it a considerable inducement to farmers if
they would look after these freight rates as we are asking them to do. Whatever they pay out
in this respect would return to them after a very few years in the shape of taxes, so that
actually there will be no loss. It would be simply an advance of money to this industry, which
is the principal source of revenue in the Province. I need not point out to this gathering that
the only source of wealth is what is produced by agriculture. That is the basis of the financial
standing of this country. Therefore, I am satisfied that if the Government will give this matter
their consideration, they will see the advisability of giving us what we are asking for in this
respect. I need not point out to you that this resolution is along the lines of the best method
of asking for Government aid. If this arrangement were made, a man would get his stumping-
powder at $5 or $5.50, as the case may be.
Mr. Scott:    Eight minutes, Mr. Keffer.
Mr. Keffer: Just one second. Over in the Kootenay, over at Crawford Bay, it costs $7.75.
You see the difference. You see how much handicapped a man is who lives away out there in
timber country as compared with a man who lives close to the Coast here. Therefore, I think
it is only reasonable that this resolution should be passed again.
R. H. Baird (Arrow Lake) : I don't know that I can say much to improve what) Mr.
Keffer has already said. I was speaking to a man from Hood River the other day, and he
said he could buy powder for $5.50 on the Coast. As Mr. Keffer says, it is $7.75 in Crawford
Bay and for farmers in the vicinity.
Mr. Scott: Is that $5.50 cost in Hood River at the factory or at the point to which it is
shipped?
Mr. Baird:   That I can't tell you.
Mr. Keffer:    I think it is at the point of shipment.
Mr. Scott:    So it is cheaper here?
Mr. Baird: Yes, cheaper here than at Hood River. But the rancher at Hood River can buy
powder cheaper than we can buy it in the Interior. I heard a lot of discussion about competition
over there and about their being able to get it cheaper. I don't see how we will be able to hold
up our end on this side of the line without something being done by the Government to assist,
especially in the settlement in the new country. I don't know if any more need be said. The
matter was fully thrashed out last year by this Convention. J. Johnston (West Kootenay) : I think you are laying hold of this thing by the wrong
end altogether. I know, when I was coal-mining in Virginia, the coal-mining powder cost $2
per keg. The trouble up here is with the manufacturer almost entirely. I know the actual
cost of making the powder, because at one time I intended to go into making powder in
Arirginia. The cost was 75 cents per keg, and the difference between 75 cents and $1 was
supposed to be a fair profit, as well as an insurance against being blown up. The main trouble
in manufacturing powder is the chance of being blown up. I would suggest that this matter
be inquired into. I don't know what stumping-powder costs in A'irginia, because I was not
blowing stumps then and didn't have any stumping-powder. In my opinion, the best thing for
us to do would be to help ourselves to some extent. AVe might get up a subscription among
ourselves to manufacture our own powder. If the Government would go behind us and insure
us against the blow-up, we would be all right. The difficulty in an undertaking of this kind is
that if we were to go into it we might be blown up next week, and for that reason a great
many will not go into it. But I really think that our whole difficulty regarding powder might
be met if the Government would insure us to a certain extent either by way of rebuilding or
paying a slightly higher price for powder, or something of that kind. I really think that some
investigation should be made into the cost of stumping-powder, to see if something could not be
done along the lines which I have suggested.
H. R. Phillips (Matsqui) : I think we are along the right line to get stumping-powder at
a greatly reduced cost. At the present time it is quoted by the Abbotsford factory at 7 cents a
pound, or $3.50 a case. I mentioned this fact to Mr. Scott, of the Hamilton Powder Company,
yesterday, and also to the agent in Vancouver. They pooh-poohed the idea, but it is their policy
to do so. They may find out about it later on. AVe should get stumping-powder much cheaper
than we are getting it now. As far as Government assistance goes, I claim that we are not
asking them to do too much.
J. S. Shopland (Comox) : This powder question has been up for ten years. I myself
investigated the matter, and I asked the manager of a company at what price he would sell me
powder, and he said 7% cents a pound. Well, we talked it around among the neighbours and
at the Institute Board, and they told me to go back and buy a car-load. We could take it from
the factory as we needed it at 7% cents. But when I went back he said he had made a mistake
and the price was 12% cents. That was a new manager, and he didn't know how large profits
he had to make. I think 7% cents a pound is just about right. That is just about what we
should have it for. As for the price in car-load lots, the Government will help you to buy it
in that way. They have promised to do so. You must remember that it makes a considerable
difference in the price how far it has to be hauled. If you are fifty miles away from the
factory, you can't expect to get it for the same rate as the man who is just next door to the
factory. We can get powder in Comox from the man there at exactly the same price as we
can get from the Government. We must remember that the Government is ourselves, and when
we are asking them to do this thing for us, it is in reality just a system of co-operation for our
mutual benefit, but it is better done by the Government as a matter of convenience. The
Government is quite willing to buy the powder in car-load lots and sell it to the Farmers'
Institute and allow you to take it away as you use it. But you must understand that powder
will not keep. If you buy a lot of powder and do not use it, it becomes practically useless after
a certain time.
P. J. Locke (Crawford Bay) : The last speaker interested me considerably because he is
from the same district. You must remember that most farmers do not buy powder in anything
like car-load lots. We usually get it one day and use it at once. I wrote to the Western
manager of the Nanaimo branch of the Hamilton Powder Company, and he sent me a very nice
letter.    I will read it to you.    Here it is:—
"Victoria, B. C, August 20th, 1910.
" Phillip J. Locke, Esq.,
See'y of Crawford Bay Farmers' Institute,
Crawford Bay, B. C.
" Deae Sir,—AVe beg to acknowledge receipt of your favour of the 14th inst. All members
of Farmers' Institutes, properly certified to by their Secretary, are entitled to purchase stumping-
powder from us through the Government at $5 per case f. o. b. cars at our factory, Nanaimo, L 46 British Columbia 1911
B. C. Whatever quantity of powder you require, if you will send us or the Department of
Agriculture a remittance figured on the above basis, the goods will be shipped to you the first
opportunity after receipt of the money.
" You are also entitled to the first-class freight rate on any quantity over 100 lt>. from
Nanaimo to Proctor, on a certificate issued by the Department of Agriculture to the effect that
the powder is being shipped to a member of a Farmers' Institute to be used for the purpose
of clearing his own land only. AVe do not guarantee freight rates, but we are informed that
the rate from Nanaimo to Proctor is $1.97 per 100 lb.
" The reduced price does not apply on dynamite, nor can dynamite be shipped at the reduced
freight rate.    The reduction both in price and freight rate applies for stumping-powder only.
" Any quantity you may require will be shipped you, and the reduced freight rate will apply
on 100 lb. and over. The only objection to shipping small lots is the fact that you may have
to wait some time to get it; that is, it will be shipped promptly, but the C. P. R. will take their
time in delivering it, as it could hardly be expected that a special freight-car would be provided
for a shipment of two or three boxes from Nanaimo to Proctor, because no other goods can go
in a car containing powder. The consequence is that the railway company will likely wait until
there is sufficient to justify them taking a car through.
" We might mention incidentally that we have an office at Nelson, in charge of Mr. R. Grubb
as district manager, and he will be pleased at all limes to furnish you with any information in
his power if requested to do so. AVe are sending him copy of your letter, and also of this reply,
so that he will be posted in case you wish to take up any questions with him.
" Yours truly,
" HAMILTON POAVDER COMPANY,
" H. J. Scott, Western Manager."
You will notice that the price is the same, no matter what quantity you may buy. It is
$5 per case at Nanaimo for whatever quantity. There would be no lower price given to an
institute for buying car-load lots.
A delegate: I may say we have bought powder for years at Nelson and the price is $7.75.
That is exactly the same as it is here plus the freight rate. The freight rates on powder are
very high in every part of the world, and of course the railways don't want to take small
quantities, and it is not allowed to be carried on passenger steamers, so that it is difficult to get
it to places like Crawford Bay in small quantities. They have to charter a launch specially to
carry it, or something of that kind.
G. Heatherbell (Metchosin) : This was thrashed out last year, and I withdrew a motion
I had asking for a reduction in the first cost of the powder, in favour of the resolution from
Arrow Park in favour of the freight rates being paid, and that resolution was carried. I still
cannot help thinking that it would be much better as a general thing to get a reduction of price
in the first instance. As one gentleman has said, the freight rates are high and they vary a good
deal, being much higher in the outlying districts. But if you had a reduction brought about in
the price in the first instance, the people in the outlying districts would get the benefit of it just
the same as those living in other places. We all know the value of powder in clearing land.
Practically the land cannot be cleared without it. It seems to me that the Government should
do something to enable the farmers to get stumping-powder at cost price. One gentleman has
mentioned the difference between 7 cents and 12 cents, and I suppose that about represents the
profit that is made. I do not see any good reason why the farmers should be compelled year
after year to pay such a high price. I think that Mr. Johnston's ground in this matter is well
taken, and it would be a good idea to see if something could not be done along the lines which
he has suggested. Cheap powder is a necessity in this Province if the land is to be cleared at
anything like a moderate cost, or if the farming industry of the Province is to receive its full
expansion.
C. W. Little (Mara) : You will probably think that there is nothing small about me when
I tell you that I would like to go a little further than this resolution or any of the previous
speakers. I would like to see the Government do even a little better than they are asked in
this resolution. I would like to see them pay for the whole thing, the whole stock of powder.
Under present conditions it is up to the President and Secretary to pay for the whole thing. I
think, myself, that our face should look just as good to the Government as it does to the Bank 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 47
of Montreal. I don't quite see why it should be up to the President and Secretary to pay for
this powder. The best plan would be that each institute should ascertain how much powder
is wanted, and then that this should be supplied by the Government, which should pay for it in
the first instance and have the money collected from the farmers as it is delivered to them. At
the end of the year the Government could then go to each institute, and the institute must have
on hand either so much powder or so much money. There would be no danger of loss and it
would be much more convenient than the present method.
Mr. Phillips: A gentleman over there said something about buying it by the car-load and
paying cash, and so getting it at less than the $5 we are paying at the present time. I don't
think that can be done. I know a few years ago we tried to do it, but we were distinctly told
that the price to the Government was the same whether the amount bought wTas five, ten, fifteen,
or twenty cases, or whatever it might be. The price was always $5, or rather it was $5.25. It
has come down since.
E. Toombs (Salmon Arm) : I remember that up in our district about five years ago this
powder question was brought up, and we bought a car-load of it at $5.50 a case. Then when
we had the car-load some of the farmers didn't hardly know what to do with it. They didn't
know where to put the powder in order to keep it. They knew that it was dangerous, and so
they decided that they would try to get a place where they could establish a magazine and each
man could go there for powder as he wanted it. They found, however, that if they did this
they would have to engage a man to look after the magazine, and so they finally concluded it
was best for each man to get his powder for himself as he wanted it. I have used powder for
the last twenty-five or thirty years, and I have never had an accident with powder or glycerine
or dynamite. I have powder in my barn to-day that has been there for a year, and it is just
as good as the day I put it there—at least, I think so. It thaws out and gets into a sort of
mash, as you might call it; but when I want to use that powder I take half a stick of good
powder and one stick of that sort, and I think it gives as good execution as real good powder.
Mr. Scott: If I may be allowed to interject a remark in reference to what the last speaker
said, I have used a great deal of powder myself in land clearing in the last twenty years, and
I have found that if you keep powder a long time lying around it loses its power and one never
gets as good results.
O. K. Goldsmith (Aldergrove) : In my own experience, I have kept powder a year and
not noticed any deterioration. I think it probably makes a big difference where you keep it.
If you have a cool, dry place in summer-time, it doesn't matter where you keep it in winter.
When it is freezing it doesn't deteriorate, but if it is continually thawing and freezing it does
deteriorate. In two instances I kept powder purely as an exepriment for a full twelve months,
and I failed to notice any deterioration. I used it in small charges and I found that it worked
pretty well.
J. AV. Hardy (Kent) : One thing I would like to state. I got my powder this last year
in small quantity, and I have never yet got powder but what was brought along with other
merchandise. It never came alone in the car. There might be ten or twenty or thirty cases,
but the C. P. R. would ship it as ordinary merchandise by local freight. There was only once
when a full carload came.    Anything at all is shoved in along with the powder.
D. Matheson (Spallumcheen) : To come back to the question which is before us, it seems
to me that this matter has been coining up continuously for the past ten years. Last year there
was a motion and a discussion on pretty much the same lines as we have before us now. Some
may think it is asking the Government for too much that they should help us in this way in
the shipping of powder. Well, for my part, I don't see where it comes in. Of course, personally
I am not interested in powder, but I take a great deal of interest in the development of the
country, and I think that if there is any line upon which the Government might help a little
more than they are doing, it is in connection with this powder question. I don't see where the
Government is doing a single thing towards procuring cheap powder. I can go to the merchants
up our way and buy powder exactly as cheap as from the Government. I don't see where the
Government is taking any risk. The institutes are taking the risks, if there are any risks. The
main object is to make some arrangement whereby those who are living a long distance away
from headquarters should have the same rates to pay for their powder as those near by.
Mr. Scott: May I ask you what you do pay for powder? You made the statement that
you could get it as cheap as the Government is handling it. L 48 British Columbia 1911
Mr. Matheson:    I think about $6.50.
Mr. Scott:    Can any one who is not a member of the institute buy for that?
Mr. Matheson:    So I am told.    It is all hearsay to me.
Mr. Scott:    I doubt it.
A delegate:    I was told that was a fact by persons who paid it.
Mr. Matheson: I don't think that the Government for the last ten years has been giving
this matter the attention that it deserves. Take up in the Kootenay country. It costs just
as much to clear land there as it does down here. And I think the Government should take
an interest in the development of the country and give assistance, so that the people in this
respect would be on a par everywhere. Of course, in this matter the Government probably looks
upon powder the same as it does any other kind of merchandise, and leaves it on the same
footing as any other transportation. But I think it is different from other merchandise. It is
something that the people want. It is the best thing ever known for clearing land, and I
think the Government should take hold of the matter and do something in connection with it
some way or other.
H. P. Lee (Okanagan) : I notice that Mr. Matheson says that powder there can be bought
at $6.50 in the neighbouring town. I may say that for years this question kept coming up
continually at our institute. The people living out in the country said they did not feel like
coming in to the Bank of Montreal and make arrangements for a car-load of powder, and Mr.
McGaw, a merchant there, said, " If you let me handle that powder, I will give it to you at a
small percentage over cost." It was given to him. The other hardware store last year asked
for the privilege of handling powder. We said Mr. McGaw had been given the privilege, but
the other man declared that he intended to handle powder even if he did so at a loss. Now
you can buy powder as cheap at one as at the other. These men are not making anything on
the powder. We are getting our powder at cost. There is a big irrigation proposition, and
there are many car-loads of powder coming into the valley. It is a large proposition clearing
the lands, and they are using tons and tons. That is the reason we are getting it in car-load
lots. The hardware men who are handling it and selling it to us are not making a cent out
of it.
Mr. Scott:    We have many resolutions to deal with, gentlemen, and time is getting on.
A. Herd (Cowichan) : I have a great deal of sympathy with those farmers who are at
such a disadvantage in getting powder. I certainly will support the resolution if we can do
no better, but it seems to me to be rather a hard proposition that we are putting the Government
up against in asking them to discriminate in favour of one district against another.
A delegate:    No.
Mr. Herd: I think so. There is possibly a way of doing something in this direction without
asking the Government to do this. I would move, in amendment, " That the Government be
asked to make an effort to have the original cost of stumping-powder still further reduced."
By remarks that have been made here it seems possible to do so. The original cost of making
powder bears no proportion to what we pay for it. We may have competition after a while,
because it is just possible that we may get reciprocity in the spring of the year, and then
perhaps we will get competition from over the line.
Several delegates:    We are not going to have reciprocity.
Mr. Johnston:    I have much pleasure in seconding that amendment.
Mr. Keffer: It has been said that in the original resolution we are asking the Government
to favour one district more than another. Well, by this amendment asking for a reduction in
the original price of stumping-powder, you don't equalise that matter at all, as it seems to me.
The original motion would have the effect of putting every man on an equal basis, so that there
could not be any discrimination by the Government between settlers in one part of the country
and another. I have considerable doubt as to whether we are really getting stumping-powder
at the actual wholesale price. To my mind it is an open question. Mr. Lee has told us of
certain circumstances where men are handling this powder at a loss. The chances are that
where merchants are doing that sort of thing they are increasing the valuation on other kinds
of goods, so as to even up, or else they may have a good rate for transportation or a special
contract with the powder company. I don't know, and I would like to find out, whether we
are actually getting it at cost price, but it is immaterial if we ask the Government to do what
the original motion has asked them to do.   It is not asking too much.   I find that there is a cc
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certain amount of hesitation among the farmers in coming down here and asking the Government for a dollar. I don't see why they should hesitate about it in connection with this matter.
The Government would not be at any loss, directly or indirectly, because the increased development of the country would very soon recoup them many times over for what they might spend
in carrying out this policy. We would be really doing nothing more than asking for our rights
as citizens, the same as any others. Farming, as we know, is the basic industry of the country,
and we should have no hesitation at all in asking the Government to give us substantial aid.
Mr. Scott:    I will now put the amendment.
Moved by A. Herd (Cowichan), seconded by J. Johnston (West Kootenay), "That the
Government be asked to make an effort to have the original cost of stumping-powder still further
reduced."
A delegate: Could they not both be passed? They are not antagonistic. They both favour
the industry.
Mr. Scott then read the original resolution and then the amendment as submitted.
Mr. Scott:    The amendment must be put first.    I will take a standing vote.
The vote resulted in the amendment being declared carried by 19 to 17.
Weather Stations in Feuit-geowing Disteicts.
28. A. E. Keffer (Arrow Park). Resolved, That the Government be asked to establish
weather stations in all fruit-growing districts, whereby accurate data will be taken of the daily
precipitation, daily temperature, velocity and duration of wind, hours of sunshine, which will
supply accurate knowledge of the approach of frosts to the fruit-grower."
Mr. Scott: If I may say a word before the mover speaks. The Dominion Government, I
believe, is willing to supply the necessary instruments for taking records of weather conditions
in districts. It appears to me that this is more a matter for the Dominion Government. You
speak here of the " Government." Does the mover mean the Dominion Government or the
Provincial.   .
Mr. Keffer: The Provincial Government was mentioned in the resolution. I think the
resolution explains itself. It is only a suggestion to the Government that they should do something towards ascertaining conditions in the country. We have a very varied climate in British
Columbia. Some parts are adapted to the growth of one thing and some another. There is a
great deal of fruit-growing being engaged in, and I believe that in some parts of the Upper
Country there is a slight danger of frost. I don't want to advertise that condition of affairs,
but there is no use in our shutting our eyes to the facts. Below the line we find that they have
a full system of meteorological offices and the Government supplies them all. Therefore, we
thought it would be a good idea to imitate this scheme in our own districts. In that way the
data could be compiled easily, and it would be possible to know exactly the conditions throughout the year. The saving of one crop over any extent of country will more than pay for the
service for a number of years. This is just merely to ask the Government to do this. It may
be too soon for, them to undertake the work. I don't know about that, but work of this kind
will very soon become a necessity in the fruit-growing districts.
Mr. Scott: The Dominion Government will supply the necessary instruments in any case
where a person is willing to take records of weather conditions. Mr. Baynes Reed, of the
Meteorological Office here, periodically goes around these stations to see that everything is going
right. If you are willing to take observations of the weather in your district, you can get all
the instruments supplied from the Dominion Government.
H. H. Matthews (Nicola) : I keep the meteorological records for the Dominion Government,
and I may tell you they are perfectly willing to supply the instruments if you will ask for them.
There is no salary. The record of weather conditions is kept at the Coast, but at present there
is no record of conditions in the Interior. You can't get the record of conditions east of the"
Cascades and the Coast Range. What is wanted is another central station somewhere in the
Interior, in that part of the country. It is sometimes difficult to get people to undertake this
work.
Mr. Scott: A resolution for the establishment of one in the Interior might be submitted
to the Dominion Government.   That, I think, would be the best course of procedure.
J. Bailey (Chilliwack) :    If this were changed so as to ask the Dominion Government to
establish one in the Interior it might have a good effect.
4 L 50 British Columbia 1911
Mr. Keffer: I am willing to change the resolution, so long as it conveys the idea we want.
I am willing to have it changed so as to ask for just one meteorological station in the Interior.
It might be made to read " That an additional office be established in the Interior to supply
reports."    If it were put in that shape, a copy might be sent to the Dominion Government.
Mr. Scott:    I think we would all be in favour of that.
J. Johnston (AVest Kootenay) : I think it is superfluous. You can get the implements if
you write for them. They will be sent to you free. I beg to move an amendment to this
resolution, " That the Dominion Government be asked to establish a central office in the
Interior."    AAron't that do?
Mr. Scott:    Mr. Keffer is going to amend it to that effect.
The resolution was then amended so as to ask that the Dominion Government establish an
additional weather station in the Interior.    In this shape it was carried unanimously.
Repoets of Government Agents.
29. A. J. C. Clarence (Peachland). "Resolved, That the Government be asked to see that
the reports sent out by their agents on the prairies be not inaccurate and misleading."
Mr. Scott: May I say one word about this resolution before you speak to it? We sent an
agent out on the prairie early this year on behalf of the fruit-growers. He was selected by the
Provincial Board of Horticulture, who endeavoured to get the best man they possibly could for
this purpose, and I think I may say that the results of Mr. Metcalfe's work have been
appreciated generally by the fruit-growers throughout the Province. Of course, he has spoken
exactly his mind, but I think that a great deal of credit is due to him for that. I may say I
only know one or two complaints that have come in with regard to his work, and these
complaints I think, myself, were not well founded. So it seems to me that this resolution is
rather a strong criticism of the Government if you pass it.
Mr. Clarence: Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—In bringing up this resolution, I don't want
to criticize Mr. Metcalfe's work this year too harshly, but we know that some of his reports
were inaccurate and misleading, and in that way I think we have ground for criticism. One
result of what he said about the peach-crop was that the fruit-growers of the Okanagan Valley
have not received the price they should have received, even allowing for market conditions; yet
in his last report he states that the fruit-growers have received fair value for their fruit. I
would ask the gentlemen whether they think 27 cents a box is a fair price for peaches.
J. Johnston (AVest Kootenay) : AA7ere the reports made by Mr. Metcalfe; were they made
up by himself, or were they from reports which he received?
Mr. Scott:    Do you mean as to quantity of crop ?
Mr. Johnston:    Yes, as to quantity of crop.
Mr. Scott: Yes, certainly, Mr. Johnston. They were made up from information which
was given to him.
The resolution was withdrawn.
Demonsteation Orchards.
30. A. J. C. Clarence (Peachland). "Resolved, That steps be taken by the Government to
establish demonstration orchards by the purchase of a suitable piece of bearing orchard in each
district, and that where such station is to be located such demonstration orchards be owned and
operated by the Government, and that a laboratory be located at some one of the demonstration
orchards."
Mr. Scott: Before this is spoken to, I think it would be advisable to get Mr. Price Ellison
to address the meeting. The Minister has given a good deal of thought to this subject. AVhen
the Government undertook to establish demonstration orchards throughout the Province, it was
proposed to put one in the Okanagan Valley, but he said he didn't consider it desirable to place
one in the Okanagan.   You may take up this question with him when he comes, I think.
Mr. Clarence: In bringing up this resolution, I may say that there was a resolution passed
last year asking for demonstration orchards in order to show the best means of running an
orchard on lines suitable to the need of the various parts of the country. The idea of this
resolution is somewhat different. It is that the Government should buy a piece of orchard that
is already bearing, so that anybody that wanted to see the work going on would not have to 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 51
wait four or five years until the trees come into bearing. No matter if you have a demonstration
orchard in the way originally intended, the man who owned the orchard might not always be
there to tell visitors what they wanted to know or to give them information. This would involve
a good deal of waste of time upon his part. AVe thought it would be much better for the
Government to purchase a piece of bearing orchard, so that anybody could come at any time
and have somebody there to demonstrate and to give all the information that any person would
require.
Mr. Scott: In reply to that, there would always be a person in charge of the orchard,
whether it is started on the plan we are adopting or whether it was a bearing orchard. Do you
mean that the Government should buy a piece of bearing orchard and put a man on it?
Mr. Clarence:    Yes.
Mr. Scott: AArell, of course, that is rather a big question, because if one district were to
have it, all the other districts of the Province might want it. It would mean probably that there
would be twenty or thirty orchards, and that the Government must keep a man on each one.
But in reference to the plan, I am strongly in sympathy with it in certain districts. I believe
it would be a very good plan to adopt to take a few acres of bearing orchard on which to'
demonstrate. But I think that the plan we are adopting of starting an orchard from its initial
stage and carrying it right through is also a very good one, because, as you know, there are a
large number of people coining into the Province who are going into the fruit-growing industry,
and they have to learn right from the beginning how to clear the land and to put out the trees.
They must be taught the proper cultural methods, so that as the years go on we will be able to
build up our fruit industry. This plan was very carefully thought out by the Department, and
we are trying to make arrangements in some instances to take bearing orchards. On the Lower
Mainland we hope to acquire some few acres here and there that are bearing, so that we will
be in a position to show the proper methods to adopt in renovating an old orchard that has been'
allowed to run down.
A delegate: That is what is wanted, to have some bearing orchard so that people can find
out the best methods of combating diseases, and can get general information along those lines.
The last part of that resolution was that a laboratory be established at one of the demonstration
orchards. That was one of Mr. Cunningham's own suggestions. He said that now people have
to send to Arictoria, whereas if they had a laboratory in the neighbourhood they would be able'
to go there and see how these obnoxious diseases were combated.
Mr. Scott: I think that latter part might be handled perfectly well by having the Provincial
Horticulturists in their districts have some place where they could have the necessary-
instruments and whatever they want, so they could take up research-work. I think it would be
best to have it in charge of the Provincial Horticulturists in each district. I would advise you
to leave this question over until the Minister addresses you, and you can bring it up then.
H. P. Lee (Okanagan) : Am I to understand that you take this matter up with your
Horticulturist down there?
Mr. Scott:    I shall be very pleased to do so, subject to the Minister's directions, of course.
Mr. Lee:    I mean in regard to this research business?
Mr. Scott: Yes, I shall discuss it with the Minister, and ask his sanction to do so; and if
he thinks it should be done, I will take steps to carry it out.
The resolution was left over.
Laboratory for Fruit Pests.
31. H. P. Lee (Okanagan). "Resolved, That whereas the Okanagan A'alley has proved to
be one of the leading horticultural sections of the Province, and whereas there is not a
thoroughly equipped laboratory in the Province for the investigation of orchard pests, the
Okanagan Farmers' Institute believes it necessary that one should be established in each
horticultural district."
Mr. Scott: I take it that is more or less covered in the resolution that we have just
laid over.
Mr. Lee: I see you are all with me in this proposition. At the present time, if there is
any disease in your districts, what are you to do? You take off the little bug and wrap it up
in tissue-paper and mail it to Ottawa, and by the time the bug gets there he is dead. L 52 British Columbia 1911
Mr. Scott:    Why don't you mail it down here?
Mr. Lee: Have we a laboratory in Victoria? At the present time, Mr. Hoy, in our district,
sends to Ottawa or Pullman College. It means a whole lot for us to be able to send insects
over there into Washington, but it should not be so. The cost of a laboratory would not be large.
AVe are only asking for a miscroscope and a few chemicals and some room. The whole thing
should not cost more than $300 for each district, and see what a lot of help it would be.
Mr. Scott: As you may know from what I said regarding the previous resolution, I would
be quite willing to take this matter up with the idea of having it done, because we have our
Horticulturists, and if they could be supplied with instruments and room to take up research
work, would not that cover the point?
Mr. Lee:    Yes, certainly, I think it would.
Mr. Scott:    Well, that is just what I said.
Mr. Lee: But it might be located anywhere in the district. It is not necessary to have it
at the demonstration orchard.
Mr. Scott:    There is no seconder to the resolution.
A. J. C. Clarence (Peachland) :    I will second the resolution.
C. S. Smith (Kelowna) : I think it would be a good idea that this scheme should be
encouraged. I think the resolution on the inspection of fruit pests might be taken with this
and the one just before it, so that the three could go together. It would be a good plan to have
this laboratory in connection with the Inspector, because we all want some better way of dealing
with this matter, some plan by which this research-work could be done. If our Inspectors had
the instruments, would they not be in a position to give us much better information?
Mr. Scott:    Are you ready for the question?
The resolution was amended by consent so as to substitute the words " British Columbia "
for " the Okanagan Valley " in the first line; the word " Dominion " for the word " Province "
in the second line; and the word "Central" for the word "Okanagan" in the fourth line. It
then read as follows: " Resolved, That whereas British Columbia has proved to be the leading
horticultural section of the Dominion, and whereas there is not a thoroughly equipped laboratory
in the Province for the investigation of orchard pests, the Central Farmers' Institute believes it
necessary that one should be established in each horticultural district."
In this shape the resolution was carried unanimously.
Farm and Irrigation Literature, etc.
32. H. P. Lee (Okanagan). "Resolved, That the Government be asked to assist in
starting a thoroughly up-to-date library of farm journals, dry-farming literature, irrigation
literature, etc."
Mr. Lee: For the past few years the Department has been sending out literature to the
farmers. I believe there has been 57,000 copies of various bulletins sent out last year. That
entailed a good deal of expense. Much of this literature is very valuable, of course, especially
perhaps to new-comers, but I think there is a certain room for improvement in the way of
supplying what the farmers really require. The British Columbia farmers are an educated
class of people. They go into the class of farming where they must study in order to get along.
They should have reliable journals and books. The proposition I bring forward is this: There
are, for instance, 150 members in my institute. Suppose that 100 of these members want a
library. The idea would be to charge these members, say, $1 each, and then to ask the
Government to put in another dollar for each am" every member. In that way we would be
able to get books of value. We could also get the Dominion Government publications and the
American publications on the different subjects, and we would have them there for reference.
Then we would not have to be asking the Government every few months to publish new bulletins.
I believe that by passing this resolution we would be doing something valuable along co-operative
lines.
C. AV. Little (Mara) : I have pleasure in seconding that. I think it is an excellent idea,
and the mover has made plain the necessity for this. It would be an especially good way of
having new-comers get the most benefits from the literature that is issued by the Department.
It might be a circulating library and a member would be asked to deposit $1.   Then he might 2 Geo. 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 53
get out a book for two weeks or thirty days and the dollar would be held until the book is
returned. I think it is an idea which should commend itself to all the members. I feel quite
sure that it will be carried without any criticism.
W. L. Keene (North Vancouver) : On this point I may say that three years ago I started
the idea in North A^ancouver myself, and I obtained copies of all the bulletins issued by the
Dominion Government as well as by the Province. I have been lending them out from time to
time to a good many people who have been asking for them. I do not see why anybody connected
with some of the other institutes could not do the same thing.
J. Bailey (Chilliwack) : There is one thing that ought to be remembered. Any institute
can get itself placed on the mailing list at Ottawa and can get all these bulletins. At present
they have to get them through the Department here, and that makes it more expensive. I am
not a great believer in books. I like the demonstration, the actual work in the orchard. I think
that is a great deal better. People can understand it in that way much better than they can
by just reading about it. We are asking the Government for a good many things, and I think
perhaps we had better not ask too much at once. I think perhaps it would be better to leave
this particular question for some other time.
Mr. Scott: If I may make a remark in regard to what has been said, I take it that what
the mover wants is to have a library of standard works on the different phases of agriculture,
and he says that then there would not be so much necessity for the Department to issue bulletins
from time to time. Well, of course, these bulletins embody the results of the latest research-
work. They are always up-to-date, embodying the latest scientific information in regard to all
phases of agriculture. I have no doubt but that it would be a good idea to have a library in
connection with every Farmers' Institute. If you pass this resolution it will be submitted to
the Government, to see if they are willing to give some assistance towards carrying out the idea.
H. R. Phillips (Matsqui) : It would be a good idea if you would bring this to the attention
of the Secretaries of the various institutes, as the delegate from North Vancouver has suggested.
The Secretaries of the institutes might take similar action to what he has been doing.
Mr. W. S. Drewry, the Water Commissioner, came into the room at this point, and the
business on hand was adjourned in order that the question of irrigation might be discussed
with him.
Mr. Scott: Mr. Drewry, the Water Commissioner, has very kindly come to speak to you
with regard to these resolutions which have been submitted to the Convention. We agreed to
hold them over until Mr. Drewry could be in attendance, so that you might benefit from his
knowledge, and you might be able to get his views on this subject. AAre will first take resolution
No. 15.
IKRIGATION.
Resolution No. 15. C. S. Smith (Kelowna) : This resolution is directed to the Government
asking them to adopt a new procedure with regard to the water question in the dry belt. Some
years ago in the Fraser River district large sums were set apart for the reclamation of the
lands which were at that time flooded by the Fraser. In that case we were asking that the
land be reclaimed from the water, and, as we all know, great benefit was derived. Now we are
simply asking the Government to reverse that procedure with regard to the water. Instead of
taking the water off the land, we are asking them to bring it on, so that thousands of acres
may be made revenue-producing which at the present moment are barren. This is a very
involved subject and one that requires to be gone into very carefully. There are so many
conflicting interests that have to be reconciled, but, so far as we are concerned, for our present
purpose we are just asking the Government to accept this procedure which is proposed in this
resolution, and if they will do so we want to see that it is put on a business basis. That has
been a very burning question and it is getting worse and worse. No doubt the legislation for
years past has been rather confused with regard to records in these matters, and it is time to
have it put in order. I think the Government recognises that to a certain extent in this new
Act they have made in connection with irrigation. In the Okanagan we found that there was
very great opposition at one time to any proposition of this kind. They would not have anything
to do with it, but now that feeling has been changed. Meetings are being held in my district,
and men have become reconciled to this idea who some time ago were entirely opposed to it in L 54 British Columbia 1911
every way, but now they are entirely in favour of it. I believe some time ago, I think about
two years ago, an irrigation convention was held in Vernon, and this system of procedure was
suggested by a responsible Minister. It was turned down at that time by certain parties who
thought that their interests were going to be jeopardized. These very men now are clamouring
for it. They are the strongest supporters of trying to get some workable scheme. This is not
a question that is going to be settled in a few days. It is a question that will require years,
but it is time that some scheme was devised and begun to be regularly carried out to provide
capital for bringing these dry lands under cultivation. The companies which have been started
there find their capitalisation inadequate, and they are prepared to fall in with this suggestion
of Government ownership and operation of the water system. The Government are in a position
to get the best expert advice, and they are able to provide the money that will be required, so
that they could give more satisfaction than any private company could possibly do. I think
the proposition we are laying before the institute is only a fair and reasonable one. AVe are not
approaching the Government with any particular scheme, but we want the whole matter worked
out between the Government and all the other parties who may be interested. If this resolution
is passed it will strengthen our hands, so that we can go to the Government and ask for some
co-operation.
Mr. Scott:    I will now ask the mover of resolution No. 19 to speak to it.
J. Johnston (AVest Kootenay) : In submitting our resolution on the water question, we are
of the opinion that in the providing of water for our dry belt, the land itself might properly
be used as a security for the issue of debentures and for guaranteeing the payment of the
interest. If the land is good enough for that, there should not be any difficulty. It is not so
much that we would object to the scheme of the last speaker, but we would prefer to have
adopted the plan which is set forth in our resolution, simply because we think that the plan
of having these works built by the Government might easily be subject to a great deal of abuse.
I don't know that I have very much to say on that matter. I would rather hear Mr. Drewry.
AATe don't profess to know exactly what we require, but we do know that something is required.
Mr. Scott:    I will now ask the delegate from Nicola to speak to resolution No. 21.
H. H. Matthews (Nicola) : 1 think I handed to the Resolutions Committee an amended
wording which rather better explains the situation. I have it here. May I read it? This was
the resolution as it was intended to be handed in:—
" Resolved, That in cases where streams rising in the Railway Belt are diverted from their
proper water-shed for irrigation purposes, the Provincial Government should take steps to
protect the record-holders on these streams who have acquired their right from the Province
of British Columbia."
AA'e have an illustration of that in the district of the Farmers' Institute I represent, and
it means a very great loss to the record-holders, or will mean a loss eventually on the stream
in question, and it seems to me that something should be done to protect those who have already
acquired rights, and also to prevent any further difficulty of this kind arising with regard to
records in future. For instance, one man we find even has a record dated as far back as 1S73,
and this stream would naturally flow into the Nicola, but it has been diverted into the Thompson.
There is one very serious difficulty that we now have to meet with, by reason of the decision of
the Privy Council that the water in the Railway Belt handed over to the control of the Dominion
Government is also under the Dominion Government; that is to say, all the streams in the
Dominion Railway Belt are under the jurisdiction of the Dominion and not of the Province. It
seems to me that this is a matter which can be very well taken up along with the question of
Government ownership or Government assistance. They can all be dealt with at the same time.
This is' a question that affects every man in that country. The value of his land depends on the
water, and if he has water from a natural stream and some one takes it away from him, the
result may very easily be that he would be ruined. This has happened in some cases. Anybody
can see that for himself, and I would very much like this institute to ask the Government if
there is legislation at present in force to deal with cases of this kind. If there is no legislation
which protects people from anything of that kind, we should take steps to see that it is provided.
Mr. Scott: I will now ask Mr. Drewry if he will be kind enough to speak to us on the
subject. 2 Geo, 5 Farmers' Institutes Report. L 55
Mr. Drewry: Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen,—It is with some diffidence that I rise to speak
on this subject, because it has been sprung- on me at a moment's notice. I have made no
preparation, but I will try to give you my views so far as possible. The resolution No. 15, of
Kelowna, asking for Government ownership, is one that involves a matter of policy. I want
you to understand thoroughly that I have no authority from the Government to advocate their
policy. I don't know what it is. AVe have not talked it over in any way, so you will understand
that what I am saying is my own view and not that of the Government. There are, as you
know, a number of small irrigation schemes scattered over the Province—in the Cariboo, the
Kootenay, the Okanagan. There are no very large schemes that I have seen yet, and I think
it will be found that resolution No. 19 embodies the idea which would be the most workable
one. That is that you should get water municipalities under Government guarantee. I believe
that would be the solution of your trouble. For the most part, the schemes that would be
practicable are hardly large enough to warrant the Government undertaking them. Another
objection is that certain parts of the Province would be apt to object to having public money
used in that way. They would think it would be pretty much like a man in Victoria buying a
lot and then asking the Government to put a house on it for him. That, of course, is something
that the Government would not do. I think, myself, that is about the position of the irrigation
schemes. But I am of opinion that this resolution No. 19 asking for water municipalities, is
along right lines. The land must stand as security behind any scheme. These water
municipalities could have power to expropriate any water record over land within their own
boundaries and then be able to issue debentures. I think you could cure most of your troubles
in that way. Another thing you must remember is that companies have gone into these
undertakings in different parts of the country and are already furnishing water. The
probabilities are that your municipalities would not be very large. There would be places of
3,000 to 20,000 acres that can be brought under fruit from one stream or from two or three
streams, but for the most part the water municipalities would be of much smaller area, perhaps
not much more than 1,000 acres. I think that a scheme can be evolved that would work out
satisfactorily. As regards the Railway Belt, I may tell the mover of the resolution that I have
been given to understand it is the intention of the Provincial Government to ask the Dominion
Government to confirm all the records that have been issued in the Railway Belt. If that is
done, these records will stand good, and under the " Railway Act" the original record ou a
stream may not be prejudiced higher up or any tributary thereof. So if the Dominion
Government see fit to confirm the records, then I think you will be in a position to handle the
question. If there are any questions you would like to ask me I will be glad to answer them
if I can.
A. J. C. Clarence (Peachland) : Is it the law that no stream can be diverted from its true
course into another channel? I always understood that no stream could be diverted into
another channel.
Mr. Drewry: Under the law since 1892, the Government can grant such permission to a
certain extent. The rights as to domestic use are preserved in all streams. The whole flow
cannot so be diverted.
C. S. Smith (Kelowna) : You say, Mr. Drewry, that these districts, as far as you know,
would be small districts?
Mr. Drewry :    Comparatively small.
Mr. Smith: I can only speak for Kelowna, but I know there are three companies at least
putting irrigation systems, and no company is handling less than 5,000 acres. There are many
thousands of acres still uncovered by these systems. As to whether it will ultimately be a
system of Government ownership or control, that, as you say, is a matter of policy or
arrangement, and it will have to be on a business basis, as I have said. Probably we may come
eventually to the scheme set forth in resolution No. 19, which you say you prefer personally.
That was my own idea at first and the idea of a good many men in our district. They thought
that there would be advantages in water municipalities. AVe have had a good many conferences
on these subjects in our district, and we have come to the conclusion that the Government
ownership would perhaps be a better plan. It is a question of which way would be the cheaper,
because it all comes down to the dollars and cents question in the end. The scheme of
Government ownership has been worked out all right in the States, where there are many large L 56 British Columbia 1911
Government systems covering thousands of acres that never would have been reclaimed if the
Government had not taken it up. We are not asking the Government to give us anything. I
am only asking you to support us in going to the Government to see if we can make a bargain.
As to what Mr. Drewry said regarding the size of the districts, you will excuse me for taking
up your time, but I think he is putting it too small. The companies in my district will none of
them cover less than 5,000 acres, and some will be 7,000 or more. These are the estimates of
their men, who are capable engineers, and who have been looking into this. A Government
expert who was sent to inquire assured me that there was plenty of water there for irrigating
the whole district twice over. Of course, I did not discuss with him the question of ownership
or anything of that kind. He merely gave me the data which he was collecting as an engineer.
His view as an engineer was that there was water enough to cover the Okanagan twice over.
Mr. Drewry: Mr. Donald was working there under my direction all this year, and that
may be, but I think you should adhere to the idea of the water municipality. He has been
finding out what is possible and where money could be spent to the best advantage, but you
will have to provide the security in any case. If you had the water municipality, the people
would have it directly under their own management, and they would probably find that more
satisfactory.
Mr. Smith: Another consideration is that if the Government took the matter up they
would have so much difficulty in dealing with present holders.
Mr. Drewry: If the Government wanted to reclaim its own waste lands it would have to
bring them under irrigation, arid therefore it might be quite fair to ask the Government to bear
a share of the expense where they have lands that would be reclaimed under any of these
schemes.
H. P. Lee (Okanagan) : Respecting that last statement with regard to waste land, the
land in the dry belt is useless without water. Take right in the district of Okanagan. Seven
years ago I don't think there were 5,000 acres under irrigation, but now $2,000,000 has been
spent in irrigation-works. The r«mlt is that land which five or six years ago was worth $2.50
an acre is now worth $500 an acre. That is what irrigation will do. Referring to these water
municipalities, you know there are a number of companies going into this irrigation business.
They may be handling 1,000 acres or less, or they may be handling a good deal more, but one
thing is sure, and that is that they are going to charge high for the water. We have some
instances in our country where they are charging $60 per acre for irrigation. AAre want to
eliminate that charge. The Government last summer investigated the lakes and sources of
supply and I believe last fall there was a resolution along the same lines passed unanimously
at the Provincial Conservative Convention at Nelson with regard to Government ownership
and control. Three years ago last summer, Mr. AVilliam Carpenter came down through the
valley asking about irrigation. They discussed municipal systems at that time. Our company,
the Wood Lake Water System, had just been formed then. This company built dams in the
mountains and flumes for irrigating the land and turned the water over to the people. It was
turned over at the rate of $2 per share. In five or ten years all they will have to do will be
to issue debentures to get a new system. Their land, which is worth $40,000 or $50,000 now,
will be worth half a million then, and they will have no difficulty in financing a new system
when they want it. But there are a whole lot of districts that cannot afford to put it in as
cheap as we did. We were very lucky in that respect. There are places where it will cost
$60 per acre, but the land is useless without water, and even at that rate it is an excellent
investment.
Mr. Scott: The time is getting on. If there are any of you wish to ask any more questions,
please be brief, but I do not think the discussion should be lengthened too much.
C. J. Thompson (Summerland) : Do I understand t