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[Interview with Maurice Young, Armed Forces at UBC Project, Part I] Specht, Allen [unknown]

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Maurice Young
April 30, 1974
Interview No. 505 Tape number 1, Side number 1
Mr. Specht: Can you tell me where you were born Dr. Young.
Dr. Young: North Vancouver.
Mr. Specht: What year was that?
Dr. Young: 1912.
Mr. Specht: Can you tell me what your father's occupation was?
Dr. Young: Orginally he was on the stage in London, he came out to Vancouver prior to the First World War, worked in the iron works during the war and subsequently in lumber then in radio.
Mr. Specht: When you say he was on the stage in London, do you mean in theatre?
Dr. Young: Yes.
Mr. Specht: Why wasn't your father in the active services?
Dr. Young: Well he was in a reserved occupation because the North Shore Iron Works was making shells and ammunition.
Mr. Specht: Did you begin your schooling in North Vancouver?
Dr. Young: Yes. Chesterfield School, North Vancouver.
Mr. Specht: How far did you go in Chesterfield School?
Dr. Young: Up until the age of 13, then over to Brentwood College on Vancouver Island.
Mr. Specht: Why did you go to Brentwood?
Dr. Young: Because my father thought it was a good school, I suppose. He believed in a private school education.
Mr. Specht: After you finished at Brentwood then what did you do?
Dr. Young: I left there and went to Cambridge University for three years, then to the London Hospital, where I graduated in medicine.
Mr. Specht:  What year was that that you graduated?
Dr. Young: 1936.
Mr. Specht: Did you practice medicine while you were in England?
Dr. Young: Only undertaking house jobs in the hospital, then I came out here for a vacation in 1939, returned to England to take up pediatrics, but within six weeks of taking on that appointment World War Two started.
Mr. Specht: Before we get into World War Two, I'm wondering were you planning on making your career in England?
Dr. Young: No, not really. It was my ultimate ambition to return to Canada, but much depended on opportunity.
Mr. Specht: Would there have been a disparity in the training you received in England and the practice that you would have in Canada?
Dr. Young: Oh yes. On return to Canada I'd have had to take the licensing examinations for the medical Council of Canada and in point of fact I had to do that when I ultimately did return.
Mr. Specht: When the war broke out what did you do?
Dr. Young: Well in 1938 at the time of Chamberlain and Munich we were approached to sign on what was called the emergency Medical Service in the even of the outbreak of war and so as soon as war broke out a year later on September 1939, we were automatically enrolled in the Emergency Medical Services. This was designed primarily to look after air-raid casualties and such injuries and likewise to look after illnesses of patiences in the civilian hospitals.
Mr. Specht: In this capacity you weren't associated with any of the three services then?
Dr. Young: None at all.
Mr. Specht: How long were you in this civil defence work?
Dr. Young: Well I remained at the London Hospital until I got itchy feet and decided to join the Air Force. They, in turn, decided that they had another job for me so they promoted me to a further resident job which I undertook for six months and then the blitz started and so you really felt you were doing something in the middle of the London blitz. Later I got itchy feet again but this time they sent me down in charge of a 240 bed hospital in Essex.
Mr. Specht: A military hospital?
Dr. Young: No it was Emergency Medical Service just the same. There I remained for two and a half years.
Mr. Specht: And after that?
Dr. Young: Oh after that I joined the Royal Navy, but initially I tried to get into the Canadian Navy, but I was turned down first of all because they thought I'd been resident in England too long and secondly with the usual delay, they decided I was not medically fit for full service so by that time I could no longer enter the Canadian Forces because at that time they were short of Doctors in Canada. So I'd no sooner get into the service than I'd have qualified to get out.
Mr. Specht: You wanted to be in uniform?
Dr. Young: Oh yes. So I joined the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve - the old 'Wavy Navy.'
Mr. Specht: And were was your first post?
Dr. Young: Well first of all I was sent down the Chatham Barracks, where I remained for about six weeks on basic training and then they sent me to Scapa Flow to cool my heels up there and I was at the Royal Naval Sick Quarters North Ness for a year.
Mr. Specht: Your duties were medical?
Dr. Young: Entirely medical. I was in charge of the medical ward at the sick quarters which...there were about 140 yes up there. But it's...we were three miles form the base and of course there's nothing very much in Scapa Flow.
Mr. Specht: So you would receive, I suppose, personnel who had been injured for example, in sea activities?
Dr. Young: Oh yes. We were also...we had patients from all three services, but also, form the dockyard up there. It was quite a large dockyard personnel.
Mr. Specht: And after Scapa Flow what then?
Dr. Young: After Scapa Flow they appointed me to the Hospital Ship called the Gerusalemme which we couldn't find her whereabouts for quite a while. It turned out that she was being refitted in Durban, South Africa. So I went out there by troop-ship and we then found that initially it was an army hospital carrier which we were then told to alter into a naval hospital ship and bring it up to navy standards, because the navy felt they had a higher standard than the army.
Mr. Specht: When you joined the Navy, why did you say you chose the Navy? Instead of the other forces?
Dr. Young: Well initially, my interest was with the Air Force. However, I had some friends in the Navy, one particular friend was Johnny Stubbs who subsequently got the D.S.O. and Bar, but he was lost at sea of the Normandy Beaches, and I don't know...I've always liked the sea and that's where I ended up.
Mr. Specht: After you went back to Durban, after you had the ship altered, where did you sail for?
Dr. Young: Well we sailed up to Mauritius and then across to Fremantle in Australia. We had to...we picked up our crew in Fremantle and there they couldn't supply us with oil. We couldn't tie up alongside because there was no berth so they sent us down to Albany and going into Albany we broke down and limped into there. So we spent two weeks in Albany and subsequently we sailed to Melbourne where we remained five weeks having further repairs done due to the rather poor workmanship which had been undertaken in South Africa. And then from there we sailed for Sydney where we spent five days and then up to the Admiralty Islands which is a degree and a half south of the equator. We remained there for two months. During that time we excelled ourselves by having a fire on board so that we nearly had to abandon ship so that everything went wrong that could with that particular ship.
Mr. Specht: How do you spell the name of that ship?
Dr. Young: Gerusalemme.
Mr. Specht: What service did you see after these incidents?
Dr. Young: Well we left the Admiralty Islands bound for Hong Kong and arrived in Hong Kong. We were the second Hospital ship in there, arriving four days after the Japanese surrendered. But the original idea of the hospital ship was we should be in a fleet train based on Australia and serving as a supply train to the fleet. We had a water ship, we had provision hips, we had a repair ship, we had a hospital ship and so on. The idea was that we would sail up from Australia take of the sick and wounded from the various ships stationed up there, provision the fleet, go back to Australia and Carr on in a sort of circular fashion like that, but it never worked. Because the Japanese surrender came before it really became effective.
Mr. Specht: What did you do when you were docked at Hong Kong?
Dr. Young: Well the first four days we didn't do anything very much. Nobody was allowed ashore. We were then sent on to Hainan where we picked up prisoners of war, mainly from Dutch East Guinea and Australia. We were supposed to take them across the Manila, but we hit the tail-end of a typhoon and then had to return to Hong Kong. On arrival back there they had assumed we had already dropped our prisoners of war. We had them all on board and there we were.
Mr. Specht: Did you see any of the Canadian prisoners of war, those who were captured in Hong Kong?
Dr. Young: No. They'd all left prior to that.
Mr. Specht: What were the major medical problems with the prisoners of war you carried?
Dr. Young: Starvation, beri-beri, malaria, and dysentry.
Mr. Specht: Those were conditions common in the Pacific Theatre, weren't they?
Dr. Young: Yes. The difficulty there was there was a mixture of diseases in practically every patient. The worst..the ones in the worst condition were the Dutch who'd allowed their morale to fall. Probably the finest were four Ghurkas who insisted on coming up the gangway and saluting and they literally fell into the ship, but most of the others were brought aboard on stretchers.
Mr. Specht: I suppose malnutrition would have contributed a great deal to the diseases?
Dr. Young: Oh yes. They'd been eating anything and everything they could get.
Mr. Specht: What did you do after this, after your...?
Dr. Young: Well we were then sent back to Fremantle again and we were looking forward to Christmas in Fremantle in 1945 when they decided to give us our sailing orders and we sailed out of Fremantle on December 23rd which upset all our arrangements for Christmas. This time we were bound for Singapore and I left the ship in Singapore, but I tried to get to Canada via Hong Kong and across the Pacific to Vancouver, instead of that they sent me to Bombay and through the Red Sea and the Mediterranean and across the Atlantic to England where I sat for two months before being repatriated to Canada again, across the Atlantic.
Mr. Specht: And where did you first settle in Canada when you returned?
Dr. Young: Well initially I was looking for a job I suppose and I picked one up in the Children's Memorial Hospital in Montreal where I started in August, 1947.
Mr. Specht: Before we go into you involvement...
Dr. Young: I'm a liar! It was August 1946.
Mr. Specht: August 1946, Before we go into your involvement with the reserves I just want to get the dates of your major medical posts after this. You were in Montreal approximately how long?
Dr. Young: Eighteen months.
Mr. Specht: and then I believe you were in Baltimore?
Dr. Young: Yes. I was down a Johns Hopkins Hospital as assistant physician.
Mr. Specht: Was this kind of a special assignment?
Dr. Young: Yes. This was specialty training particularly in pediatric cardiology, which is heart disease in children.
Mr. Specht: How long were you in Baltimore?
Dr. Young: Gosh...I wish I could remember. It was another eighteen months.
Mr. Specht: Do you have any memories of the city?
Dr. Young: Baltimore? Yes I have plenty. The city's changed a great deal since that time and Johns Hopkins Hospital has changed a great deal as well.
Mr. Specht: Did you have a good time there?
Dr. Young: Oh I enjoyed it, but the humidity was too much for me. It as in the spring particularly...the summer the humidity was dreadful.
Mr. Specht: Did you feel a cultural difference in Baltimore compared with England or Canada?
Dr. Young: You mean medically?
Mr. Specht: No, I was thinking more..well the people you met. Their attitudes.
Dr. Young: Well of course, you'e got a large negro population in Baltimore so that a considerable proportion of our patients were negroes either from the local city but, of course, in the particular job I was in they were being referred at that time from all over the world including Europe.
Mr. Specht: And when you completed your tour in Baltimore where did you go?
Dr. Young: Then I came out to Vancouver looking for opportunity and decided to start a pediatric practice out here.
Mr. Specht: When you say looking for opportunity, this strikes me as a little bit strange because I would have assumed that doctors would have been in demand then and you would have been able to write away to some place and immediately get real encouragement to come.
Dr. Young: Oh yes, but then it all depends. You see at that time we had no medical schools in British Columbia so there were no academic appointments. Pediatrics was well...relatively a junior specialty and people hand't become acclimatized to the idea of thinking about pediatrics. They were being treated by their family practitioner.
Mr. Specht: Did you plan all along to return to Vancouver?
Dr. Young: Well it was between Vancouver and England I suppose. Before I came back here at the end of the war I applied for a job back at my old hospital and they short listed us and they got down to two of us left and one of them was a good friend of mine, Pat Smythe, who was a South African, and he's now professor of Pediatrics in Durban. He got the job and I didn't so I came back to Canada. As soon as I arrived in Vancouver I wondered why I ever left.
Mr. Specht: Why do you say that?
Dr. Young: Well because of the scenery and general living conditions, climate and everything else.
Mr. Specht: And when did you take an assignment at U.B.C.?
Dr. Young: July, 1953 I came on the faculty here.
Mr. Specht: And you've been with them ever since. In an earlier conversation you mentioned that you with the...when you were in Montreal you became involved with the reserve.
Dr. Young: Yes well first thing I had to do was transfer from the R.N.V.R. to the R.C.N.V.R. which subsequently became the R.C.N.R. and my initial appointment was the H.M.C.S. Donacona.
Mr. Specht: Why did you stay with the reserves after the war?
Dr. Young: Well I don't know, I suppose I quite enjoyed the... sort of atmosphere of the Ward Room and the general esprit de corps and so on. I thought there was still a job to do. In point of fact when I first landed back in Canada the medical director general did his best to get me to transfer to the permanent force in Canada but I preferred to stick to pediatrics.
Mr. Specht: Immediately after the war wasn't there some uncertainty about the reserves? We were switching over to peace time and there would be a great deal or organizational problems. Do you recall any of that?
Dr. Young: Well I had nothing to do with it because I was just a junior medical officer at that point and...in Donacona. But I thought at that time there was always a good opportunity I think and so far as we were concerned the reserves were carrying on.
Mr. Specht: I say that because I know there was some uncertainty with the U.N.T.D., exactly what its role would be and...
Dr. Young: Oh yes I can see that because the U.N.T.D. initially all the forces, the three forces on campus were designed to train officers for the war and then there was no war.
Mr. Specht: But there were still military commitments of sorts, the occupation, other treaty organizations, no I guess NATO didn't start until late on did it, not until 1949?
Dr. Young: No that was a good deal later on.
Mr. Specht: When you were in Vancouver you became involved with the reserves in Vancouver, didn't you?
Dr. Young: Well when I went to Baltimore I had to get leave of absence from the reserve from Donacona, when I came out to Vancouver I transferred from H.M.C.S. Donacona to H.M.C.S. Discovery and I was interviewed at Discovery and taken on as a medical officer down here in the sick bay.
Mr. Specht: You said earlier that one of the reasons you stayed with the reserves was that there was still a job to be done, could you elaborate on that?
Dr. Young: Well for that matter I think there still is a job to be done because I don't think...I mean nobody wants another war but I think one of the ways possibly to prevent another war is to be prepared for war.
Mr. Specht: This is quite different than the attitude after World War One.
Dr. Young: Oh yes, but World War One was the war to end wars. And we'd already come through another one which was even worse. I don't know why I stayed in. I suppose I quite enjoyed the life and so on and recruits were coming in and somebody had to examine them.
Mr. Specht: When you started with Discovery were you also medical officer with the U.N.T.D.?
Dr. Young: Not initially no. As medical officer to Discovery I became involved in just undertaking the medical examination of the U.N.T.D. cadets at the start of their year.
Mr. Specht: Between that and when you became the C.O. did you have any other involvement with the U.N.T.D.?
Dr. Young: No none at all.
Mr. Specht: You became involved in Sea Cadets didn't you?
Dr. Young: Yes. I was M.O. to the Sea Cadets, R.C.S.C.C. Captain Vancouver, for nine years. In fact the last year I was with the Sea Cadets overlapped with my first year with the U.N.T.D.
Mr. Specht: Would this be H.M.C.S. Captain Vancouver?
Dr. Young: No, R.C.S.C.C., royal Canadian Sea Cadet Corps Captain Vancouver.
Mr. Specht: But their parade was at Discovery, using Discovery facilities?
Dr. Young: Yes they used Discovery facilities every Wednesday evening. I was down there on Tuesday evenings. Subsequently I was Surgeon Commander and then on Wednesday evening I was a Surgeon Lt. The one in the Naval Reserve and the other in the Sea Cadets.
Mr. Specht: Can you tell me how you became C.O. of the U.N.T.D.?
Dr. Young: Well there were two of us. We were both Surgeon Commanders and the other was Surgeon Commander Moore, he transferred also out from Donacona. I'd known him for several years and when he came out there were two of us who were Surgeon Commanders at Discovery and they couldn't really justify two Surgeon Commanders at that particular base and it turned out that we had both been appointed as Surgeon Commanders on identically the same day, the only difference was that I was confirmed and we was acting. So technically, I was senior and in order to get our the impassion about what to do with two surgeon Commanders they appointed me as C.O. U.N.T.D.
Mr. Specht: Who is 'they'?
Dr. Young: Well I'm not quite sure who is 'they' but one was the retiring C.O. of Discovery who I think probably dreamt up the idea and the other was the C.O. taking over form him and you just...are appointed by the C.O. of the base.
Mr. Specht: Di you think that had something to do with the fact that you were also U.B.C. faculty?
Dr. Young: Well it could have been I suppose, but I think the number one factor was the fact that they didn't know what to do with two Surgeon Commanders.
Mr. Specht: How did you feel about becoming C.O.?
Dr. Young: Well I didn't know anything about it to begin with until one of the officers phoned up and congratulated me on my appointment and I just inquired "what appointment?" And he hand't realized that he'd let the cat out of the bag and that I hand't been informed of my appointment. I felt rather as if someone had kicked me in the stomach.
Mr. Specht: When you realized the circumstances did it seem like...it was a promotion?
Dr. Young: Well it was a promotion in a way. Not from the standpoint of rank. I maintained the same rank as I'd had before. It certainly created problems and added responsibilities and for the first three months I didn't know what I was supposed to do or what my duties were or what my responsibilities were but ultimately I soon found out.
Mr. Specht: And how did you come to view your responsibilities as C.O.?
Dr. Young: Well I'm not quite sure I know what you mean by that.
Mr. Specht: Well, more generally speaking...what do you think is the role of the C.O.?
Dr. Young: Oh heavens! Well, I think, to settle that one of you have to look at the the aim of the U.N.T.D. or the C.O.T.C. or the R.U.S. and that was basically to train university students to become officers in the reserve forces. This meant that you had to try to select a candidate, a civilian, a young student who was sitting rather sloppily in front of you, and try to figure out if he had the potential for you to try to make him an officer in three years. Now, the training involved, of course, naval subjects but intimately involved I think is the discipline which goes along with the forces. This applies to all three forces although I suppose we had the reputation of maintaining a higher standard of discipline than the other two.
Mr. Specht: How would you account for that?
Dr. Young: Well I don't know, though I suppose it depends a great deal on the C.O. and on the officers and whether you regard it as being a serious business or not.
Mr. Specht: Of course you were different than the C.O.T.C. which was not a Reserve in the sense of...
Dr. Young: The C.O.T.C. were training reserves.
Mr. Specht: They would have had Reserves as part of their Establishment.
End of Tape 1, side 1

Maurice Young
April 30, 1974

Interview Number 505
Tape 1, side 2
Mr. Specht: In 1960 an efficiency award system was set up. Do you know how that came about?
Dr. Young: Well this originally was...there were at that time about ten U.N.T.D. divisions across the country and it was decided that it would be a nice thing to have an efficiency trophy awarded to the best division in the country each year. I think the funds to purchase this trophy were derived from U.N.T.D. personnel. The suggestion I think, came through the C.O. Naval Division in Hamilton.
Mr. Specht: Do you know how they established criteria for determining efficiency?
Dr. Young: Well...basically we, of course, had to make reports to headquarters through the year and then in the course of the year an inspecting officer came out from the east, or for that matter I suppose he went east to the eastern divisions and he inspected all the U.N.T.D. divisions across the country. And all the paperwork was reviewed and inspected at the time, all the reports, all the administration and...finally there was a U.N.T.D. parade, inspection and parade by the inspecting officer. Taking into account also the success or otherwise of the cadets in their summer training when the cadets from the divisions went to either the east or the west coast and they were employed during the summer months which was during the summer vacation from university and they served in various ships or various establishments around the country.
Mr. Specht: Did this inspecting officer have a chance to acquaint himself with the gun rooms through the mess activities of the cadets?
Dr. Young: Oh yes. He also reviewed, for instance, the minutes of the gun room meetings, but invariable he would have...he would speak to all the cadets, sometimes on the drill deck and certainly in a more informal fashion up in the gun room.
Mr. Specht: So he had the chance to observe the state of the gun room?
Dr. Young: Oh yes. He'd be there as our guest.
Mr. Specht: The gun room was run differently than the officer's mess of the Army or the Air Force, wasn't it?
Dr. Young: Well yes, because in the Army and the Air Force the cadet, the officers, they were all in the same mess, whereas with the U.N.T.D the gun room was separated from the ward room. The ward room being the officer's mess. The cadet had their own mess which was the gun room and they were expected to run it. So that the president of the gun room mess and his executive were responsible to the C.O. for running the mess. As C.O. I was not permitted in the gun room except by invitation and that applied to all officers in the U.N.T.D.
Mr. Specht: The cadets themselves though, had the rank of sub-lieutenant, didn't they?
Dr. Young: No, no. They were just officer cadets. Then, initially, after officer cadet, the next stage up was a mid-shipman and them sub-lieutenant..but in point of fact when the Reserve element of the U.N.T.D. graduated they graduated an became immediately sub-lieutenant in the reserve. The U.N.T.D. you see, wasn't entirely reserve. We had three components in the U.N.T.D. There as the R.O.T.P. which were regular officers training plan. They were being trained for the permanent force. There was the College Training Plan, which consisted of ratings who'd already been trained in the navy, who were considered to have officer potential. They were sent to the university at the expense of the Navy and were taken into the U.N.T.D. and continue their training ultimately graduating as officers in the permanent force. And then the third were the U.N.T.D. The third class was the U.N.T.D. who were all university students who entered the division entirely on a voluntary basis. And the idea was they would train to join the Canadian Naval Reserve as junior officers.
Mr. Specht: Would this mixture...what was it like having the more seasoned seaman of the C.T.P. in the university establishment?
Dr. Young: Well sometimes it was a little difficult because they were well aware of the ways of the Navy and the ways of getting around certain regulations and so sometimes it was a little...they sometimes tried to pull a fast one, now and again. By and large of course, they were older too than the other cadets and many of them were married and had families and so they were less likely to take an active part in the mess. And the R.O.T.P. and the U.N.T.D. they were both roughly the same age but one was basically a civilian and doing volunteer work and the other was an officer under training for the permanent force. Well they tended to segregate a little bit also. One of the problems was how to get the three factions together into one unit.
Mr. Specht: When they started the proficiency award system I think U.B.C. won the trophy five of the eight years they had it. That was quite a good record.
Dr. Young: Yes in point of fact..the first inspection that we had when I was C.O. we were rated as being very poor and then the next year we won the proficiency trophy. They never used to let us win more than two years running somehow or other but interesting enough, until the very last year, the trophy never went east to Winnipeg.
Mr. Specht:  How would you account for this?
Dr. Young: Well we were top dog, obviously/
Mr. Specht:  You said that you weren't when you started, that it took a lot of work to get it to be a really passer unit to use the Navy term...
Dr. Young: Well yes. I had the misfortune of a rather poor staff officer initially and he was replaced by a considerably more efficient officer and we both got along very well together and I think we both had similar aims and that was to make the U.N.T.D. U.B.C. the best in the country.
Mr. Specht: How about the facilities at Discovery, would they play a part?
Dr. Young: Well yes, we trained entirely at Discovery for about the first seven years of my command until unification came along and then we were ordered out to join the other two units on the campus. But my feeling was that we should continue to train at Discovery because that was by and large the only exposure that the cadets had to the Navy apart from their summer training. Likewise, I think it probably stimulated a more brisk competition with the other two services. We were, at the end of the the year there was a tri-service parade held out at the university and I used to tell my boys they had to be a damn sign smarter than the Army or the Air Force.
Mr. Specht: In 1959, this would be your second year as C.O., they started what they call familiarization cruises. Could you describe them?
Dr. Young: Well basically this was just sort of a recruiting...ploy. What we used to do, we used to have a number of the students applying for the U.N.T.D. and we used to take them out, arrange for a destroyer, and take them out and up Howe Sound or out in to the Gulf for a day's outing to they could have a little bit of a look at the Navy and see what a destroyer escort looked like. They quite often put on quite a good show for us. They might have two ships sometimes and they'd transfer a man by breeches buoy from one ship to the other while at sea. On another occasion we had a rendezvous with a helicopter which landed on the deck and took various students up for a short flight and back again. We invited, as a rule, some of the Army and the Air Force officers along with us and I think they were a little bit envious of our recruiting tactics.
Mr. Specht: This was in 1960 and this time your quotas were lowered to twenty in the U.N.T.D. and I wonder was there still a...was this to attract cadets?
Dr. Young: No. Basically it...the quota of twenty applied to twenty per year and as it was a three year training program this meant you had sixty U.N.T.D. cadets over and above that in the R.O.T.P. and the C.T.P. so that the..at its top strength I suppose we probably had a unit of about 110 cadets. But we always had more applications to the U.N.T.D. than we could accept and so then came a process of selection and we would try to select twenty-four in September and then by Christmas time they would be weeded down to twenty.
Mr. Specht: Could you say then that the familiarization cruises were to attract cadets so you would have the best to choose from, the best candidates...?
Dr. Young: Yes, the more candidates or the more applicants you had, the better chance you had of getting top quality.
Mr. Specht: I'd like to turn now to the official history of the U.N.T.D. which you had printed. In the preface to this history, it says "quote"...well just preceding this quote you mentioned that you were optimistic about the unit but to consolidate the unit "it is necessary that the importance and the success of the organization be Brough home to as many people as possible." Why do you think this is necessary?
Dr. Young: Well, a lot of people didn't know what the U.N.T.D. was all about including of course, a lot even in the Naval Reserve. They weren't quite sure what the objectives of the U.N.T.D. were and again it was with a view to sort of encouraging more active participation and a better quality candidate in the Naval training. If nobody knows what its objectives are or what they're trying to do its very difficult to attract good quality.
Mr. Specht: How did you do this? How did you advertise the U.N.T.D.?
Dr. Young: We had a recruiting booth at the time of university registration and this was manned by, usually, two or three or the junior officers who were there purely for information purposes. They had various brochures and so and were there to describe their own experiences with the U.N.T.D. and try to nam so many of the good students as they could get hold of so that we'd have a reasonably A) a good number to choose from and b) a reasonably good quality.
Mr. Specht: I read in the history that at the U.B.C. Open Houses too, that you would set up a display of sorts.
Dr. Young: Oh yes, we had a display there, but the three services by and large had displays at that time. Mind you those were in the course of the year when your recruiting was over, but it was all grist for the mill as far as publicity was concerned. We also had usually a church parade once a year. Not that that was for publicity but we used to hold and annual church parade. We also had the tri-service parade and ball and then there was one very popular ball which the Navy was responsible for and that was called the Barnacle Ball which was usually held down at Discovery. And that was well attended by, not only U.N.T.D. but by the C.O.T.C., R.U.S. and civilians. The only catch about that was we had to guard the various models and so on that we had around Discovery or they got pinched.
Mr. Specht: Attached to the history is a kind of appendix. I'm not sure who put this in but this is a version of, I believe, the September, 1964 House of Commons debates. Paul Hellyer was asked by the opposition to describe some of his plans for the services especially regarding integration. Maybe the best way to start this...discussion topic is to ask why it is included as part of the history of the U.N.T.D. and why it was put on as an appendix?
Dr. Young: Well because it completely altered our training. It completely altered where we trained. We were sort of the guinea pigs of the integration and I could see integration...I could see that medical officers were M.O.s no matter which service they were in; Chaplains were Chaplains no matter which service they were in; and I could see integration of the pay branch. I couldn't see really why you should have three accounting systems, one for each of the services so it made sense up to them. But then they started talking about unification and that was a different kettle of fish when they brought that in and meant to say that basically there were turning us all into one unit. And we were instructed to leave Discovery and go out to the campus and train with the C.O.T.C. and the R.U.S. out on the campus. So that was fine and dandy except that the methods of drill for instance were entirely different in the forces. The routines are different. In the Navy we used to start each evening with divisions which consisted in raising the flag and raising the white ensign or subsequently it became of course the Canadian Flag, and this was followed by prayers and the march past. Well this whole routine was quite foreign to the C.O.T.C. and the R.U.S. In the same way in the Navy if you give a command to come to attention it's just 'Halt' and it's done in one movement whereas int  the Army it's 'Atten ho' and they do it in about four different steps. So by the time we got the three units together, goodness knows when they would come to attention.
Mr. Specht: So I suppose these were problems that you had to iron out?
Dr. Young: Well yes. When we moved out there the C.O.T.C. and the R.U.S. were...very kindly welcomed us into their mess and what we did was we...the C.O.s undertook to be Duty C.O. in rotation so that I became Duty C.O. once every three weeks and similarly with the C.O.T.R. and the R.U.S. So far as possible I'd carry out a Navy routine, but the first night I tried to carry out divisions was a complete and utter disaster. Fortunately I had a good chief cadet captain who kept his head and gave the order for the Army and the Air Force to carry out normal routine for payers but it was obvious you couldn't carry on with that because, I the course of divisions you have off cpas for instance where the Navy removes its headgear, the Army were at a loss because a number of them were in berets and how do you smartly remove a beret and smartly return it to its place on your head? It's can't be done.
Mr. Specht: That wasn't part of their regular parade night at all was it? Payers? That was only the Navy?
Dr. Young: That was only the Navy. We're the only God-fearing bunch, I think.
Mr. Specht: I guess that's from the hazards of being on the sea. One problem which would seem to arise also with integration, in the Commons debate it said that winter training was considered theoretical and this could be carried on with the three units together and it would be based upon the same theoretical training in the service colleges, but summer training you would go to the individual services the different branches and I wonder for example if a person say doesn't get training in Naval etiquette it could lead to problems in the summer camps?
Dr. Young: Well it was worse than that. They felt that the theoretical training could be the same for all three services, but even that was ridiculous because how are you going to train Naval cadets in navigation for instance if you're going to have the Army and the Air Force in there as well. What do they want anything to do with how to navigate a ship. Similarly, the Army I think does a lot more parade square 'bashing' thank the Navy or the Air Force do. The drill routines were quite different and...oh after we'd come out the campus we were invited back for instance, for the annual inspections at Discovery and when the order was given to come to attention, Discovery would come to attention immediately in one movement and there would be this sort of loud echo as the U.N.T.D. came to attention seconds later because they were carrying out by this time the Army routine. The salutes are different. The whole tradition is different. And, of course, when they, as you say when they went for their summer training they weren't used to, they knew of because we'd talked of the, they know of the traditions and customs of the Navy, but they hadn't carried them out. They'd been carrying out by and large Army routines and so they stuck out like a sore thumb.
Mr. Specht: What do you think might have been some of the advantages of integration? I think, for example, one of the objectives were..so that each branch of the service could get to know the other and certainly having them all together you could be efficient in so much as learning about each other.
Dr. Young: Oh, I wouldn't agree with that at all! I think that it destroyed competitive spirit between the university units and it was a very strong force. There was always a great deal of competition, but it was friendly competition between the three units on the campus, but the same thing happened throughout for instance, the whole of the Army. Each Army unit has its own traditions, its own loyalties, its own way of doing things and suddenly you put them all into the same pot and you put everybody into the same uniform. You can't tell who's an officer and who's a lower rank except by the gold on the sleeve. Basically the uniforms are exactly the same design and tailored the same way and everything else. You look at the traditions of say the Process Pats. They're not going to have the same traditions or they're not going to have the same routines as say the Duke of Connaughts so they not only ruined all the sort of traditions of the three indiviudal services, they also ruined the traditions of each individual unit in those services.
Mr. Specht: Did you...would you have given lectures say to Army and Air Force cadets telling them about the Navy?
Dr. Young: Well yes. We used to have a familiarization lecture even before we integrated. And sometimes we would invite one of the Army officers or one of the Air Force officers down to Discovery to acquaint the Navy cadets with how the other half lived. This was even more to the point when we integrated because there an officer of one service could be lecturing to cadets of all three services.
Mr. Specht: I'd like to ask you about the university, the administration at U.B.C. What kind of response did you get from them, from say the President?
Dr. Young: How did they view the U.N.T.D.?
Mr. Specht: The U.N.T.D.
Dr. Young: Oh we got nothing but the fullest support. Particularly from Dr. Norman MacKenzie and then subsequently from the later presidents, but he was I suppose the driving force. He worked very hard with and for the services on the campus. I think, too, he resisted unification but above everything else, he was untiring in his efforts to maintain the services on campus, I thought that was another disaster, because I think we did more than just train officers for the services. I think all three of the campus units trained good citizens.
Mr. Specht: I was going to get to that. I want to discuss that more, but before I do that I want to ask you, I think Dr. MacKenzie was succeeded by Dr. John Barefoot MacDonald, was there a difference in approach?
Dr. Young: Oh yes. I don't think Dr. MacDonald had the personal interest in the service units that Dr. MacKenzie had. Dr. MacKenzie somehow, well he seemed to be involved, whereas Dr. MacDonald...
End of Tape 1, Side 2

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