UBC Theses and Dissertations

UBC Theses Logo

UBC Theses and Dissertations

Work histories of a Coast Salish couple 1976

You don't seem to have a PDF reader installed, try download the pdf

Item Metadata

Download

Media
UBC_1976_A8 S63.pdf
UBC_1976_A8 S63.pdf [ 16.35MB ]
UBC_1976_A8 S63.pdf
Metadata
JSON: 1.0093776.json
JSON-LD: 1.0093776+ld.json
RDF/XML (Pretty): 1.0093776.xml
RDF/JSON: 1.0093776+rdf.json
Turtle: 1.0093776+rdf-turtle.txt
N-Triples: 1.0093776+rdf-ntriples.txt
Citation
1.0093776.ris

Full Text

WORK HISTORIES OF A COAST SALISH COUPLE b y LEONA MARIE SPARROW B.A., University of B r i t i s h Columbia, 1973 A THESIS SUBMITTED IN PARTIAL FULFILLMENT OF THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DEGREE OF MASTER OF ARTS i n THE FACULTY OF GRADUATE STUDIES (Department of Anthropology and Sociology) We accept t h i s thesis as conforming to the required standard THE UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA May, 1976 In presenting th i s thesis in pa r t i a l fu l f i lment of the requirements for an advanced degree at the Un ivers i ty of B r i t i s h Columbia, I agree that the L ibrary sha l l make it f ree l y ava i l ab le for reference and study. I fur ther agree that permission for extensive copying of th is thes is for scho lar ly purposes may be granted by the Head of my Department or by his representat ives. It is understood that copying or pub l i ca t ion of th is thes is for f i nanc ia l gain sha l l not be allowed without my wr i t ten permiss ion. Department of The Univers i ty of B r i t i s h Columbia 20 75 Wesbrook P l a c e Vancouver, Canada V6T 1W5 Date ftfa, tf% i i ABSTRACT This thesis attempts to depict and analyze an area or time space i n the l i f e of two selected Coast S a l i s h informants from the Musqueam Reserve. A series of interviews with the informants produced an extensive and comprehensive account of t h e i r work patterns, information on other cl o s e l y related facets of the l i f e s t y l e of the informants, and t h e i r r e l a t i o n s h i p to various culture groups. Perhaps the most important features revealed are i m p l i c i t — the informants' concepts of s e l f i n society. Through these texts a Native perspective of recent history can be seen emerging. This perspective i s more evident i n the verbatim tr a n s c r i p t s than i t would be i n a closely edited text. The analysis attempts to demonstrate the relationship of work hist o r y to t o t a l l i f e h i s t o r y , the importance of the c u l t u r a l l y related patterns and cycles to work. i i i TABLE OF CONTENTS Page LIST OF TABLES Chapter 1. INTRODUCTION 1 2. OUTLINE OF METHOD 5 3. INITIAL INTERVIEWS ON WORK HISTORY PROJECT . . . 16 3.1 Tape 22: Rose Sparrow 17 3.2 Tape 23: Ed Sparrow 2 8 3.3 Tape 24: Ed Sparrow 46 3.4 Tapes 25 and 26: Ed Sparrow 61 3.5 Tape 27: Rose Sparrow 84 4. INTERVIEWS WITH WORK CHRONOLOGY 105 4.1 Tapes 28 and 29: Ed Sparrow 107 4.2 Tapes 30 and 31: Rose Sparrow 130 5. EARLIER TRANSCRIPTS RELATED TO WORK HISTORY . . . 163 Tape 2: Ed and Rose Sparrow 164 Tapes 3, 8, and 9: Rose Sparrow 172 6. ADDITIONAL INTERVIEWS WITH WORK CHRONOLOGIES . . 190 Tape 32, i n p a r t : Ed and Rose Sparrow 192 Tape 33, i n p a r t : Rose Sparrow 199 7. SUMMARY INTERVIEWS 215 Tape 33, i n p a r t : Rose Sparrow 217 Tape 34: Rose Sparrow 220 Tape 35: Ed Sparrow 223 i v C h a p t e r Page 8. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS 229 Method Summary 230 Data Summary 233 C o n c l u s i o n s 249 BIBLIOGRAPHY 256 APPENDICES: A-JL WORK CHRONOLOGY — Rose Sparrow 259 A 2 WORK CHRONOLOGY — Ed Sparrow 26 3 B WORK SEQUENCE — Rose and Ed Sparrow . . . 265 C GENEALOGY 266 V L I S T OF TABLES TABLE PAGE I CULTURAL FEATURES INDEX WITH PAGE REFERENCES TO TEXTS OF TAPES 2, 3, 8, 9 188 I I MALE AND FEMALE WORK CATEGORIES DERIVED FROM TEXTS 234 ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS I w o u l d l i k e t o e x p r e s s my t h a n k s a n d a p p r e c i a t i o n t o t h e Musqueam B a n d a nd B a n d C o u n c i l f o r t h e u s e o f e q u i p - ment a nd f a c i l i t i e s u t i l i z e d w h i l e c o m p l e t i n g t h i s t h e s i s . A s p e c i a l t h a n k y o u i s e x t e n d e d t o my f a m i l y f o r t h e i r e n c o u r a g e m e n t and s u p p o r t t h r o u g h o u t t h e r e s e a r c h a n d w r i t i n g t i m e . To my g r a n d p a r e n t s , a s p e c i a l " h u y c h x w q u " t o acknow- l e d g e t h e t i m e a n d k n o w l e d g e t h e y h a v e s h a r e d w i t h me i n p r e p a r i n g t h i s t h e s i s 1 Chapter 1 INTRODUCTION A number of good accounts of Coast S a l i s h culture are available but there i s a great deal of knowledge and experience which has ei t h e r never been documented or which i s inaccurate, misunderstood, and not representative of how the people see themselves. Part of the deficiency e x i s t s because much i n f o r - mation i s not considered by the Sa l i s h people to be i n the realm of general public knowledge. I t i s private and personal, or a family possession.^" I am a part of, and i d e n t i f y with one of these f a m i l i e s . In r e l a t i n g to my paternal grandparents, who have been my informants, I have been very much aware of d i f f e r e n t categories of information which they w i l l share with me sol e l y because of family t i e s , and other information which i s open. The text of t h i s thesis i s directed i n t e n t i o n a l l y away from areas which could disclose knowledge of the f i r s t sort which they do not wish to be made public. For several years I have been c o l l e c t i n g for my grand- parents pieces of information which can l a t e r be c o l l a t e d i n t o a dual biography or a p a r t i a l history of Musqueam. Research for 1 Refer to: Suttles, Wayne P., Private Knowledge, Morality and Soc i a l Classes Among the Coast S a l i s h , American Anthropologist n.s. v o l . 60, 1958, pp. 497-507, Menasha. 2 t h i s t h e s i s was i n t e n d e d t o be of v a l u e i n f u r t h e r i n g e i t h e r o f t h e s e o r i g i n a l o b j e c t i v e s w i t h o u t v i o l a t i n g t he p r i v a t e / p u b l i c knowledge d i s t i n c t i o n w h i c h i s a fundmanetal p a r t o f t h e c u l t u r e . Both Rose and Ed Sparrow have been e x t r e m e l y p a t i e n t and c o o p e r a t i v e t h r o u g h the r e c o r d i n g , t r a n s c r i p t i o n and e d i t i n g o f t h e m a t e r i a l s f o r t h i s t h e s i s . N e i t h e r e x p e c t s any reward o t h e r t h a n t o have t h e i n f o r m a t i o n documented and p o s s i b l y t o have a p a r t o f i t p u b l i s h e d i n the f u t u r e . They were, however, b o t h becoming eager t o move i n t o o t h e r a r e a s f o r r e c o r d i n g by the time the l a s t few ta p e s were made f o r t h i s t h e s i s . T h e i r knowledge has been exposed and aroused r a t h e r t h a n e x h a u s t e d by t h i s e x e r c i s e . S t u d i e s o f Canadian I n d i a n s i n the l a b o r market, o r o f t h e i r economic development have approached t h e t o p i c from a number o f a n g l e s o v e r a p e r i o d o f t i m e . R e s e a r c h e r s and s t a t i s t i c i a n s have gone t o g r e a t l e n g t h s t o l o c a t e t h e N a t i v e p o p u l a t i o n i n economic s u r v e y s , t o a n a l y z e and d e s i g n a t e t h e i r p o s i t i o n complete w i t h c o n t r i b u t o r y f a c t o r s , i m p l i c a t i o n s , and 2 proposed a l t e r n a t i v e s . 2 R e f e r t o : F i e l d s , D. B. and W. T. S t a n b u r y , The Economic Impact o f t h e P u b l i c S e c t o r Upon t h e I n d i a n s o f B r i t i s h C o lumbia, s u b m i t t e d t o Department o f I n d i a n A f f a i r s and N o r t h e r n Develop- ment. Vancouver, The U n i v e r s i t y o f B r i t i s h Columbia P r e s s , 1973. Hawthorn, H. B., A Survey o f Contemporary I n d i a n s o f Canada, a r e p o r t on economic, p o l i t i c a l , e d u c a t i o n a l needs and p o l i c i e s . I n d i a n A f f a i r s , Ottawa, 196 8. Hawthorn, H. B., C. S. Belshaw, S. M. J a m i e s o n , The I n d i a n s o f B r i t i s h C olumbia: a s t u d y o f contemporary s o c i a l a d j u s t m e n t , U n i v e r s i t y o f T o r o n t o P r e s s , T o r o n t o , 195 8. (c o n t i n u e d ) 3 I m p l i c a t i o n s a r e g e n e r a l l y c e n t e r e d a r o u n d t h e N a t i v e p e r s o n ' s a p p a r e n t l a c k o f a b i l i t y a n d / o r d e s i r e t o a d a p t t o e s t a b l i s h e d l a b o r p a t t e r n s . The e m p h a s i s seems t o be on d e g r e e o r r a t e o f a s s i m i l a t i o n i n t o a p r e d o m i n a n t l y non I n d i a n s o c i e t y . I n c o m p l e t e a b s o r p t i o n i n t o t h e s o c i e t y and r e s u l t a n t u n d e r - d e v e l o p m e n t o f p e r s o n a l p o t e n t i a l and a v a i l a b l e r e s o u r c e s a p p e a r t o be among t h e l e a d i n g f a c t o r s b e i n g i m p l i c a t e d i n t h e l e v e l o f a t t a i n m e n t r e a l i z e d b y N a t i v e s i n e c o n o m i c d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h e i r r e g i o n . T h e r e i s n o t , t o my p r e s e n t k n o w l e d g e , a c u r r e n t s t u d y w h i c h i n v e s t i g a t e s i n d e p t h , o r w h i c h i n c o r p o r a t e s t o any g r e a t e x t e n t t h e N a t i v e v i e w s o f w o r k . By t h i s , I r e f e r t o t h e c o m p l e m e n t a r y a s p e c t s t a k e n f r o m t h e f r a m e o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h e N a t i v e . The m e a n i n g o f w o r k i n i t s e l f , o r t h e v a r i o u s f o r m s i t may assume i n t h e N a t i v e c o n c e p t a r e i n s t r u m e n t a l i n u n o e r s t a n d i n - t h e i r p o s i t i o n r e l a t i v e t o w o r k , t h e l a b o r f o r c e , a n d economy. V a l u e s p l a c e d on w o r k , and t h e n a t u r e o f t h e s e v a l u e s a r e c l o s e l y r e l a t e d t o m e a n i n g . I n t h i s r e s p e c t , v a l u e s and t h e i r n a t u r e may emerge t o g e t h e r t o d e t e r m i n e N a t i v e c o n c e p t s o f w o r k . T h e r e a r e o t h e r e x a m p l e s o f a r e a s t o c o n s i d e r i n i n v e s t i g a t i n g N a t i v e c o n c e p t s o f w o r k : c o n t r i b u t i o n s t o w o r k , b e n e f i t s r e c e i v e d f r o m , 2 ( c o n t i n u e d ) S t a n b u r y , W. T., D. B. F i e l d s , D. S t e v e n s o n , B. C. I n d i a n s i n an U r b a n E n v i r o n m e n t : i n c o m e , p o v e r t y , e d u c a t i o n and v o c a t i o n a l t r a i n i n g . C a n a d a . D e p a r t m e n t o f Manpower and I m m i g r a t i o n . Manpower R e v i e w , P a c i f i c R e g i o n v o l . 5 No. 3 ( J u l y - S e p t e m b e r , 1972") p p . I I - 33. S t a n b u r y , W. T. and J . H. S i e g e l , U r b a n I n d i a n s i n t h e L a b o u r M a r k e t , V a n c o u v e r , 19 73. 4 e x p e c t a t i o n s o f w o r k o r f e l l o w w o r k e r s , r e s t r i c t i o n s f e l t b y b e i n g a p a r t o f t h e l a b o r f o r c e , p e r i o d s o r s e a s o n s when i n d i v i d u a l s d i d n o t w o r k , i n f l u e n c e o f f a m i l y members o r f a m i l y l i f e . I t i s n o t my i n t e n t i o n t o d i s c r e d i t i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h a l r e a d y e x i s t s . T h e m a i n p u r p o s e o f t h i s t h e s i s w i l l b e a n a t t e m p t t o e x p l o r e t h e u s e s o f a l i f e h i s t o r y a p p r o a c h i n c o l l e c t i n g d a t a , t o d e t e r m i n e a n d d e s c r i b e w o r k a r e a s c o n s i d e r e d t o be i m p o r t a n t . Wejalso hope t o c l a r i f y p o s s i b l e w o r k p a t t e r n s e s t a b l i s h e d b y my g r a n d p a r e n t s , and t h r o u g h t h i s t h e n a t u r e o f N a t i v e I n d i a n p a r t i c i p a t i o n i n d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h e r e g i o n a l economy. T h r o u g h o u t , we w i l l c e n t e r a r o u n d t h e t o p i c s as s e e n f r o m w i t h i n t h e c u l t u r e . I w o u l d o n l y hope i n t h i s p r o j e c t t o i n v e s t i g a t e a n o t h e r means o f a p p r o a c h i n g t h e s u b j e c t o f w o r k . I t i s t h r o u g h t h e l i f e h i s t o r y a p p r o a c h t o t h e t o p i c o f w o r k t h a t I hope t o a i d i n t h e e s t a b l i s h m e n t o f a c u l t u r a l b a s i s f o r an u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e N a t i v e p o s i t i o n i n C a n a d i a n s o c i e t y — t h e i r c o n t r i b u t i o n , b a r r i e r s m et, n a t u r e o f i n v o l v e m e n t i n d e v e l o p m e n t , a d j u s t m e n t , a n d s o f o r t h . I n t h i s way, i t may b e p o s s i b l e t o u n d e r s t a n d f u r t h e r w h a t l i f e means t o my g r a n d p a r e n t s , t o N a t i v e p e o p l e , w h a t t h e i r o r d e r o f p r i o r i t i e s a r e i n l i f e , a n d how t h e y a r e m o u l d e d . 5 Ch a p t e r 2 OUTLINE OF METHODOLOGY Data f o r t h i s s t u d y were c o l l e c t e d a t Musqueam R e s e r v e , a suburb o f Vancouver, B r i t i s h Columbia. I t i s a medium s i z e d urban Coast S a l i s h community. 1" The tap e r e c o r d i n g s were made m a i n l y from J a n u a r y t o J u l y , 1975, w i t h a few r e l a t e d p o r t i o n s c o l l e c t e d i n 1972. The i n f o r m a n t s , my p a t e r n a l g r a n d p a r e n t s , are now r e s i d e n t a t Musqueam, Ed Sparrow, S r . b e i n g a n a t i v e o f Musqueam, and Rose Sparrow (nee George) o r i g i n a l l y from Kwaw-kwah-a-pilt (Koh k w a p l a t ) near S a r d i s , B. C. They are s e v e n t y - s i x and s e v e n t y - t h r e e y e a r s o f age r e s p e c t i v e l y . The framework f o r a p p r o a c h i n g t h e g o a l and aims s e t was c e n t e r e d on e l i c i t i n g t h e work h i s t o r y p o r t i o n o f i n d i v i d u a l l i f e h i s t o r i e s . B oth g r a n d p a r e n t s were encouraged t o r e c o r d i n f o r - m a t i o n most i m p o r t a n t t o t h e m s e l v e s , t h e i r f a m i l y o r t h e i r community. The i n t e r v i e w s uncovered much d e t a i l b u t c o u l d n o t be c o n s i d e r e d as complete o r e x h a u s t i v e . The o r d e r o f r e c o r d e d d a t a i s n o t c h r o n o l o g i c a l as f a r as o r d e r o f o c c u r r e n c e i n my gr a n d p a r e n t s * l i v e s i s concerned. T o p i c , r e c o r d i n g o r d e r , and 1 The p o p u l a t i o n , O c t o b e r , 19 75 — a p p r o x i m a t e l y 430 r e g i s t e r e d Band members. I t was e s t i m a t e d t h a t 320 Band members were r e s i d e n t on r e s e r v e , as w e l l as 100 non Band members ( i n c l u d e s non s t a t u s and t h o s e r e g i s t e r e d w i t h o t h e r b a n d s ) . 6 d e p t h o f s t u d y w e r e l a r g e l y d e t e r m i n e d by t h e i r w i l l i n g n e s s t o r e c o r d and by t h e i r r e c a l l c a p a c i t y . The l i m i t s o f t h e i r t o l e r a n c e f o r q u e s t i o n i n g i n t h i s a r e a o f s t u d y w e r e a l s o c o n s i d e r e d as s i g n i f i c a n t f a c t o r s i n d e t e r m i n i n g t h e t o t a l amount o f m a t e r i a l c o l l e c t e d . F o r t h i s s t u d y , t h e m e t h o d o f c o l l e c t i n g i s a a i m p o r t a n t a p a r t o f t h e e x e r c i s e as a n a l y s i s a n d s u m m a t i o n . I h a v e b e e n as t h o r o u g h a s p o s s i b l e i n d e s c r i b i n g t h e p r o c e d u r e s u s e d a n d r e a s o n s f o r u s i n g o r d i s c a r d i n g them. I n t h e f i r s t s t a g e o f t h e s t u d y , an a t t e m p t was made t o r e c o r d an o u t l i n e o f t h e w o r k h i s t o r i e s o f t h e c o u p l e . F u r t h e r s e s s i o n s w i t h e a c h g r a n d p a r e n t a l l o w e d f o r e n l a r g e m e n t o f d e t a i l , e l i c i t i n g o f s p e c i f i c r e f e r e n c e s , a n s w e r i n g o f q u e s t i o n s , a n d e x p r e s s i o n o f my g r a n d p a r e n t s ' p e r s p e c t i v e . The w o r k h i s t o r y s p a n s f r o m t h e t i m e o f f i r s t e m p l o y m e n t o r w o r k up t o t h e p r e s e n t . My g r a n d p a r e n t s d e s c r i b e a nd d e f i n e t h e w o r k , t h e n e c e s s i t y f o r w o r k , p r o b l e m s and o b s t a c l e s e n c o u n t e r e d , e n d r e s u l t s o r r e w a r d s , l i f e s t y l e , c o s t o f l i v i n g , e t c . R e c o r d e d m a t e r i a l s w e r e t r a n s c r i b e d v e r b a t i m f r o m t h e t a p e s , a n d t y p e d i n t r i p l i c a t e . T h ey w e r e t h e n e d i t e d m i n i m a l l y , i n d e x e d , and o r d e r e d i n r e c o r d i n g o r d e r b e f o r e b e i n g w o r k e d i n t o t a x o n o m i c d i a g r a m s o r work c h r o n o l o g i e s . The n e x t p h a s e was v e r i f i c a t i o n b y my g r a n d p a r e n t s a nd a n a l y s i s b y m y s e l f . T h i s t a s k was done w i t h t h e i d e a o f c l a s s i f y i n g p a t t e r n s a nd f e a t u r e s w i t h i n a n d b e t w e e n t h e h i s t o r i e s w h i l e m a i n t a i n i n g t h e r i c h n e s s o f t h e p e r s o n a l a c c o u n t s . 7 R e l a t i o n s h i p s f o u n d i n t h e d a t a r e q u i r e d e s c r i p t i o n , c l a s s i f i c a t i o n , a n d i n t e r p r e t a t i o n i n r e g a r d t o t h e w o r k t y p e a n d d e s c r i p t i o n , t h e i n d i v i d u a l s i n v o l v e d a n d t h e i r s o c i a l / c u l t u r a l d i s p o s i t i o n . I n e f f e c t , t h i s i s d e s c r i b i n g w h a t t h e c a t e g o r y o f w o r k means t o t h e i n d i v i d u a l w i t h i n h i s c u l t u r e . I n i t i a l l y , I h a d s e t o u t t o d e t e r m i n e i n v o l v e m e n t o f t h e C o a s t S a l i s h i n t h e f i s h i n g i n d u s t r y on t h e l o w e r F r a s e r R i v e r , a n d c o n t r i b u t i o n s made b y t h e N a t i v e s t o t h e e c o n o m i c d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h i s r e g i o n t h r o u g h t h e f i s h i n g i n d u s t r y . A l t h o u g h I d i d some r e a d i n g o n t h e h i s t o r y o f f i s h i n g a n d N a t i v e f i s h i n g i n t h e F r a s e r R i v e r a r e a , t h i s was t o be an e s s e n t i a l l y n o n - l i b r a r y t h e s i s . I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n u n r e a s o n a b l e t o f o r e g o c o n t i n u a t i o n o f f i e l d r e s e a r c h w i t h t h e o p p o r t u n i t y a t h a n d . My i n t e n t was t o i n t e r v i e w N a t i v e f i s h e r m e n a n d w o r k e r s , b o t h f e m a l e a n d m a l e o v e r t h e age o f s i x t y , t o s u r v e y t h e i r i n v o l v e - ment i n t h e d i f f e r e n t a s p e c t s o f t h e f i s h i n g i n d u s t r y . I h a d h o p e d t h i s w o u l d r e v e a l a p a t t e r n i n g o r e t h n i c c y c l e o f a c t i v i t y . The i n f o r m a n t s w e r e t o be r e s t r i c t e d t o Musqueam B a n d members o r I n d i a n p e o p l e who h a d l i v e d i n t h e Musq u e a m - V a n c o u v e r a r e a . A t h e s i s p r o p o s a l was d r a w n up and s u b m i t t e d t o my C o m m i t t e e C h a i r m a n . A t t h i s p o i n t a l i s t o f p o s s i b l e i n f o r m a n t s was d r a w n up. The t o p i c h a d t o be c h a n g e d b e c a u s e o f d i f f i c u l t y l o c a t i n g e n o u g h f i s h e r m e n a n d w o r k e r s a t h a n d f o r i n t e r v i e w i n g . O t h e r l i m i t i n g f a c t o r s b e g a n t o emerge. W i t h i n t h e g r o u p a t h a n d , t h e o c c u p a t i o n a l d i v e r s i t y was i n s u c h a w i d e r a n g e t h e r e was d i f f i c u l t y l i m i t i n g a s u r v e y t o t h e f i s h i n g i n d u s t r y a l o n e . 8 A n o t h e r i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e was t h e v a r i e t y o f j o b s o r o c c u p a t i o n s i n d i v i d u a l s h a d a t t e m p t e d i n t h e i r l i f e t i m e . The n e x t p h a s e o f d e v e l o p m e n t was t o c o n s i d e r c o l l e c t i n g a s e r i e s o f w o r k h i s t o r i e s o f Musqueam r e s i d e n t s w i t h t h e i n t e n t o f d e t e r m i n i n g p o s s i b l e w o r k p a t t e r n s o r c y c l e s w i t h i n a g r o u p o f p e r h a p s e i g h t t o t e n p e r s o n s a t Musqueam. A f t e r d i s c u s s i o n w i t h a f a c u l t y a d v i s o r , a p r e l i m i n a r y l i s t o f p o s s i b l e i n f o r m a n t s was e s t a b l i s h e d . The C h i e f o f t h e Musqueam B a n d was i n f o r m e d o f t h e n a t u r e a n d i n t e n t o f t h e p r o p o s e r e s e a r c h . W i t h t h e C h i e f ' s a p p r o v a l t o c o n d u c t a r e s e a r c h p r o g r a m w i t h Musqueam p e o p l e , a t t e m p t s w e r e made t o c o n t a c t a few o f t h e i n f o r m a n t s . Some d e s i r a b l e i n f o r m a n t s w e r e d i f f i c u l t t o c o n t a c t d u r i n g t h e a v a i l a b l e t i m e . A few o t h e r s d i s p l a y e d some u n w i l l i n g n e s s t o p a r t i c i p a t e i n t h e s t u d y p r i m a r i l y b e c a u s e o f l a c k o f t i m e o r i n t e r e s t . P a r t o f t h e r e l u c t a n c e t o p a r t i c i p a t e was a l s o r e l a t e d t o u s i n g t h e i n f o r m a t i o n f o r u n v e r s i t y r e s e a r c h . P r o x i m i t y t o U.B.C. h a s e x p o s e d t h e Musqueam p e o p l e t o many r e s e a r c h o r i e n t e d p r o j e c t s , a n d r e s i s t a n c e o r d i s i n t e r e s t a r e e a s i l y u n d e r s t o o d . P r i m a r i l y b e c a u s e o f t h e i r own i n t e r e s t i n h a v i n g an a c c u r a t e r e c o r d o f f a m i l y h i s t o r y a n d l e g e n d s , Rose a n d E d S p a r r o w showed a w i l l i n g n e s s t o w o r k w i t h me. A v e r y p o s i t i v e f e a t u r e i n w o r k i n g w i t h t h e s e two i s t h e r a p p o r t w h i c h e x i s t s t h r o u g h a g r a n d p a r e n t - g r a n d c h i l d r e l a t i o n s h i p . T hey h a v e a 9 k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t t h e y r e a l i z e s h o u l d be s h a r e d , p a r t i c u l a r l y w i t h f a m i l y . I a l s o h a v e an i m p l i c i t u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f some t h i n g s w h i c h w o u l d t a k e a p e r s o n n o t a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e f a m i l y much l o n g e r t o d e t e r m i n e . A n o t h e r i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e was t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e y h a d o f w h a t i s i n v o l v e d i n t a p e r e c o r d i n g . I h a d r e c o r d e d b o t h t a p e d and w r i t t e n m a t e r i a l f r o m b o t h g r a n d p a r e n t s p e r i o d i c a l l y o v e r f o u r o r f i v e y e a r s . E d S p a r r o w h a d a l s o w o r k e d as an i n f o r m a n t w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e . A l l f a c t o r s t a k e n t o g e t h e r p r o d u c e d an a f f a b l e , a l m o s t c a s u a l a t m o s p h e r e w h i c h w o u l d h a v e b e e n d i f f i c u l t t o d u p l i c a t e w i t h a l a r g e r g r o u p o f i n f o r m a n t s . A l s o a t t h i s t i m e I was r e a d i n g T h e L i f e H i s t o r y i n A n t h r o p o l o g i c a l S c i e n c e 2 t o d e t e r m i n e i f p o s s i b l e p a r a l l e l s i n method a n d p u r p o s e c o u l d be r e l a t e d t o c o l l e c t i n g t h e s i s d a t a . A t a p i n g s e s s i o n w i t h Rose S p a r r o w was a r r a n g e d t o t e s t t h e v a l i d i t y o f r e c o r d i n g w o r k h i s t o r i e s and a t t i t u d e s t o w o r k . T h i s f i r s t t a p e was t r a n s c r i b e d a n d p a r t i a l l y a n a l y z e d b e f o r e any f u r t h e r d a t a c o l l e c t i n g was a t t e m p t e d . W i t h t h e e x c e p t i o n o f t h e l a s t t w o t a p e s w i t h R o s e , a l l r e c o r d i n g was done i n my g r a n d p a r e n t s * home w h e r e t h e y c o u l d l o c a t e t h e m s e l v e s w h e r e v e r t h e y f e l t c o m f o r t a b l e . L a n g n e s s , L e w i s L ., "The L i f e H i s t o r y i n A n t h r o p o l o g i c a l S c i e n c e " , S t u d i e s i n A n t h r o p o l o g i c a l M e t h o d , H o l t , R i n e h a r t a n d W i n s t o n , 1 9 6 5 . ~ ~ 10 There were some problems i n v o l v e d i n t h i s i n i t i a l r e c o r d i n g s e s s i o n . I had w r i t t e n out a l i s t o f p o s s i b l e q u e s t i o n s f o r my grandmother t o respond t o . These were v e r y g e n e r a l q u e s t i o n s d i r e c t e d a t c l a s s i f y i n g work r a t h e r t h a n d e s c r i b i n g t h e t y p e s o f work done by an i n d i v i d u a l . T h i s was done as a t e s t i n g s t a g e t o dete r m i n e what i n f o r m a t i o n might be o b t a i n e d and r e - v e a l e d . The aim o f t h i s s e s s i o n was t o s e t o u t an o u t l i n e f o r a s e r i e s o f q u e s t i o n s which c o u l d be used as a s u r v e y b a s i s f o r a group w i t h v a r i e d work e x p e r i e n c e . The f o l l o w i n g i s a l i s t o f t e n t a t i v e q u e s t i o n s used t o gu i d e t h e J a n u a r y 15, 19 75 i n t e r v i e w ; t h e s e were r e p h r a s e d and expanded b e f o r e and d u r i n g t h e i n t e r v i e w : - 1. I n g e n e r a l terms: what t y p e s o f a c t i v i t y can you i d e n t i f y i n N a t i v e c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s ? l e i s u r e - s i n g l e , group ) e s s e n t i a l o r p l e a s u r e ) o p t i o n a l w o r k - s i n g l e , f a m i l y , group) 2. A r e t h e r e d i f f e r e n t k i n d s o r c a t e g o r i e s o f work? male, female e s s e n t i a l , non e s s e n t i a l : k n i t t i n g / w o o d - c u t t i n g housework/work f o r money as examples. s e a s o n a l h e r e d i t a r y l i f e s u s t a i n i n g a c t i v i t i e s m a t e r i a l , n o n - m a t e r i a l o r i e n t a t i o n 3. How o r why do you c l a s s i f y c e r t a i n a c t i v i t i e s as work? 4. Are t h e s e c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s t h e same now as you can remember them from e a r l i e r t i m e s ? 5. C o u l d you g i v e a b r i e f summary o f work you have done i n y o u r l i f e t i m e work? work season and y e a r l o c a t i o n r e a s o n s f o r c h o i c e 11 G e n e r a l , open e n d e d q u e s t i o n s e v o k e d b e t t e r r e s p o n s e t h a n c o u l d s p e c i f i c , s u r v e y - l i k e q u e s t i o n s . The n a t u r e o f t h e q u e s t i o n s was r e v i e w e d a n d r e o r g a n i z e d t o f o l l o w t h i s t r e n d i n f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n i n g w i t h b o t h Rose and E d . B e f o r e i n t e r v i e w i n g Rose f u r t h e r , s e s s i o n s w i t h g r a n d f a t h e r w e r e b e g u n . T h i s was done t o t e s t t h e u t i l i t y o f t h e r e v i s e d q u e s t i o n s . He was a s k e d t o g i v e a b r i e f h i s t o r y o r a c c o u n t o f t h e w o r k he h a d done t h r o u g h o u t h i s l i f e . Q u e s t i o n i n g was now d i r e c t e d more t o w a r d t h e p e r s o n a l r e c a l l a p p r o a c h t h a n t o w o r k c l a s s i f i c a t i o n . G r a n d f a t h e r was q u i t e a t e a s e a n d was un- c o n c e r n e d a b o u t b e i n g t a p e r e c o r d e d . H i s r e s p o n s e s w e r e s p o n t a n e o u s . I n f o r m a t i o n seemed v e r y g o o d a n d p r e c i s e as t o t i m e and l o c a t i o n . V e r y l i t t l e d i r e c t e d q u e s t i o n i n g was r e q u i r e d a t t h i s f i r s t s e s s i o n o t h e r t h a n t o c l a r i f y amounts o f e a r n i n g s , e m p l o y e r , o r work p a r t n e r s . He o r d e r e d h i s w o r k e x p e r i e n c e i n t o a r e c a l l s e q u e n c e on h i s own. T h i s same a p p r o a c h was a t t e m p t e d w i t h a n o t h e r m a l e i n f o r m a n t f r o m Musqueam. A g a i n t h e q u e s t i o n i n g was d i r e c t e d a t a b r i e f s y n o p s i s o f t h e work d o n e . T h i s i n f o r m a n t was v e r y w i l l i n g t o r e s p o n d and a n s w e r a l l q u e s t i o n s d i r e c t e d t o h i m . H o w e v e r , he was n o t r e c e p t i v e t o h a v i n g t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t a p e r e c o r d e d . D u r i n g t h i s one i n t e r v i e w a l l d a t a was w r i t t e n down. W i t h t h e s e t h r e e i n f o r m a n t s , t h e r e seemed t o be an e a s e o f r e c a l l o f p e r s o n a l a nd f a m i l y e x p e r i e n c e . T h i s was n o t a s a p p a r e n t i f t h e q u e s t i o n i n g r e q u i r e d t h e i n f o r m a n t t o c a t e g o r i z e e v e n i n g e n e r a l t e r m s . 12 A f t e r b r i e f a n a l y s i s o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t s f r o m t h e s e f i r s t i n t e r v i e w s , c o n s i d e r a t i o n was g i v e n t o t h e i d e a o f c o l l e c t i n g a c o m p l e t e l i f e h i s t o r y o f my g r a n d p a r e n t s . T h i s i d e a was r e j e c t e d f o r t h e p r e s e n t t i m e . I t a p p e a r e d t h a t t h e d a t a a l r e a d y c o l l e c t e d was d i r e c t e d a t an i m p o r t a n t a r e a f o r a n t h r o p o l o g i c a l r e s e a r c h — t h e n a r r o w e r w o r k h i s t o r y s e c t o r o f t h e l i v e s o f my g r a n d p a r e n t s . I t seemed l i k e l y t h a t t h e v o l u m e a n d r i c h n e s s o f d a t a w h i c h c o u l d b e o b t a i n e d f r o m e a c h g r a n d p a r e n t w o u l d f a r o u t w e i g h s k e t c h y i m p e r s o n a l d a t a o b t a i n e d t h r o u g h a s u r v e y a p p r o a c h w i t h a g r o u p o f i n f o r m a n t s . C o l l e c t i o n o f c o m p l e t e w o r k h i s t o r i e s f r o m a g r o u p o f p e o p l e r e q u i r e d f a r more t i m e t h a n was a v a i l a b l e . The d e c i s i o n was made t o l i m i t t h e s i s m a t e r i a l t o d a t a c o l l e c t e d f r o m t w o i n f o r m a n t s , my g r a n d p a r e n t s . R a p p o r t , w i l l i n g n e s s t o c o o p e r a t e , a n d an i n i t i a l r e c o r d i n g w e r e i n s t r u m e n t a l i n t h i s d e c i s i o n . I n d i s c u s s i o n w i t h a f a c u l t y a d v i s o r i t was d e c i d e d t h a t t h e w o r k h i s t o r i e s c o u l d be v i e w e d as s u p p o r t f o r , o r a d i f f e r e n t a p p r o a c h t o , o b t a i n i n g l i f e h i s t o r y d a t a . T h e a r e a s o f w o r k , w o r k c y c l e s , e c o n o m i c d i s p o s i t i o n , e t c . w o u l d be i n v e s t i g a t e d t o d e t e r m i n e a c r i t i c a l s e c t o r o f l i f e i n g e n e r a l . R e c o r d i n g t i m e s xvere r e l a t e d t o and r e s t r i c t e d b y t h e w o r k and a c t i v i t y o f b o t h my g r a n d p a r e n t s a n d m y s e l f . W henever p o s s i b l e , t h e t i m e and d u r a t i o n o f i n t e r v i e w s w e r e l e f t v e r y f l e x i b l e t o a v o i d p l a c i n g my g r a n d p a r e n t s u n d e r p r e s s u r e o r o b l i g a t i o n t o r e c o r d a s p e c i f i e d amount o f m a t e r i a l . T h e r e w e r e 13 d a y s when no r e c o r d i n g was a t t e m p t e d . T h e s e w e r e t i m e s when t h e r e was o t h e r w o r k o r b u s i n e s s t o be done o r d a y s when i t seemed more a p p r o p r i a t e t o v i s i t r a t h e r t h a n w o r k . D e l a y s b e t w e e n r e c o r d i n g d a t e s w e r e a l s o a t t r i b u t e d t o o t h e r f a c t o r s . T a p e s w e r e g e n e r a l l y t r a n s c r i b e d a n d t y p e d b e f o r e t h e n e x t r e c o r d i n g s e s s i o n . T h i s a l l o w e d o p p o r t u n i t y t o r e v i e w t a p e d m a t e r i a l a n d t o d e t e r m i n e t h e d i r e c t i o n f o l l o w i n g t a p e s m i g h t t a k e . D a t a was a l s o d i s c u s s e d p e r i o d i c a l l y w i t h a f a c u l t y a d v i s o r . S i n c e t h e r e w e r e some c o m p l i c a t i o n s e x p e r i e n c e d i n t h e i n i t i a l i n t e r v i e w s w h i l e d e t e r m i n i n g o u r p r o c e d u r e , i t was d e c i d e d t o b e g i n f u r t h e r t a p i n g w i t h my g r a n d f a t h e r who seemed t o r e s p o n d t o q u e s t i o n i n g more s p o n t a n e o u s l y t h a n my g r a n d m o t h e r . He a l s o r e l a t e d e v e n t s i n an o r d e r w h i c h s t i m u l a t e d r e c a l l o f o t h e r e v e n t s . A t t i m e s , q u e s t i o n i n g seemed u n n e c e s s a r y and was i n f a c t d i s r u p t i v e t o h i s t h o u g h t p a t t e r n s . I a t t e m p t e d t o a l l o w h i m t o e x h a u s t h i s r e c a l l a t f i r s t . When some t y p e o f b a r r i e r a p p e a r e d , q u e s t i o n s w e r e d i r e c t e d t o g a p s i n t h e c o n t i n u i t y o f h i s d a t a . As more t a p e s a n d t r a n s c r i p t s w e r e c o l l e c t e d , i t became n e c e s s a r y t o b e g i n s e t t i n g up an i n d e x o f w h a t was c o n s i d e r e d t o be i m p o r t a n t d a t a . S e p a r a t e d e t a i l e d c h r o n o l o g i e s o f b o t h w o r k 3 h i s t o r i e s w e r e a l s o w r i t t e n o u t . W i t h t h e y e a r b y y e a r c h r o n o l o g i e s a t h a n d , i n f o r m a t i o n g a p s became e v e n more a p p a r e n t . The c h r o n o l o g i e s became an i n v a l u a b l e a s s e t t o b o t h i n f o r m a n t and r e s e a r c h e r i n r e c o r d i n g a n d o r d e r i n g d a t a . 3 R e f e r t o A p p e n d i c e s A l , A2 f o r C o n d e n s e d Work C h r o n o l o g i e s . 14 The d a t a c o l l e c t e d f r o m my g r a n d m o t h e r was s t i l l l i m i t e d b u t i t seemed n e c e s s a r y t o c o n t i n u e r e c o r d i n g w i t h E d w h i l e he was a v a i l a b l e , i n t e r e s t e d a n d i n v o l v e d i n c o m p l e t i n g t h e r e c o r d i n g o f h i s i n f o r m a t i o n . E x t e n d e d i n t e r r u p t i o n m i g h t h a v e b r o k e n t h e f l o w a n d l e d t o o m i s s i o n o f p e r t i n e n t i n f o r m a t i o n . I t a l s o seemed more r a t i o n a l t o w o r k t o w a r d c o m p l e t i o n o f one h i s t o r y a n d c h r o n o l o g y as f a r as p o s s i b l e b e f o r e b e c o m i n g t o o i n v o l v e d w i t h a s e c o n d c h r o n o l o g y . The s e p a r a t e n e s s o f t h e s e c h r o n o l o g i e s a c t u a l l y p r o v i d e d a means o f v a l i d a t i n g c e r t a i n common i n f o r m a t i o n . T h e r e may h a v e b e e n c e r t a i n a d v a n t a g e s t o e l i c i t i n g i n f o r m a t i o n c o n c u r r e n t l y , b u t i t was f e l t t h a t d i s - t r a c t i o n s f r o m c o n s e c u t i v e r e c a l l may h a v e p r o d u c e d some d i f f i c u l t i e s and o m i s s i o n o f p e r s o n a l d a t a i n o r d e r t o c o l l a b o r a t e . When b o t h c h r o n o l o g i e s h a d b e e n w r i t t e n o u t a n d s u r v e y e d , f u r t h e r t a p i n g was d o n e . G r a n d f a t h e r w e n t o v e r h i s c h r o n o l o g y y e a r by y e a r , a d d i n g , c o r r e c t i n g a n d v e r i f y i n g i n f o r m a t i o n a s h e w e n t a l o n g . T h i s a l s o g ave an o p p o r t u n i t y t o q u e s t i o n w h e r e i n f o r m a t i o n was v a g u e o r c o n t r a d i c t o r y . He f e l t more c o m f o r t a b l e h a n d l i n g t h e c h r o n o l o g y s h e e t h i m s e l f , r e l a t i n g i n f o r m a t i o n on a y e a r by y e a r b a s i s . G r a n d m o t h e r , on t h e o t h e r h a n d , r e s p o n d e d more r e a d i l y i f she w e r e shown s p e c i f i c a r e a s w h e r e i n f o r m a t i o n was m i s s i n g . I c o u l d t h e n a s k q u e s t i o n s w h i c h w o u l d r e l a t e h e r w o r k a n d a c t i v i t y t o h e r f a m i l y , b i r t h o r d e r o f h e r c h i l d r e n , h u s b a n d a n d h i s w o r k , o r h e r own p r e v i o u s w o r k . She h a d seemed u n c e r t a i n w h a t t h e c h r o n o l o g y was a t f i r s t , a n d how t o r e l a t e t o i t . 15 A f t e r h e a r i n g a n d w a t c h i n g E d w o r k w i t h h i s c h r o n o l o g y s h e became more a t e a s e w i t h h e r own. A f t e r i n t e r v i e w s g u i d e d by t h e c h r o n o l o g i e s , a s u m m a t i o n i n t e r v i e w was a r r a n g e d t o h a v e my g r a n d p a r e n t s g i v e a s y n o p s i s o r an e v a l u a t i o n o f t h e m a t e r i a l s b e f o r e f u l l a n a l y s i s was b e g u n . B a s i c a l l y t h e same q u e s t i o n s w e r e a s k e d o f b o t h Rose a n d E d . S i n c e d a t a c o l l e c t i o n h a d b e e n c e n t e r e d a r o u n d t h e i r i n t e r e s t s a nd r e f e r e n c e s , I c o n s i d e r e d t h e y s h o u l d a l s o h a v e an o p p o r t u n i t y t o a n a l y z e i n some way. I f t h e y d i d n o t r e s p o n d a n a l y t i c a l l y , t h e l i n e o f q u e s t i o n i n g w o u l d a t l e a s t i n v i t e o p i n i o n s . I t i s my v i e w t h a t i n e t h n o g r a p h i c s t u d y , a n a l y s i s s h o u l d n o t be l e f t e n t i r e l y w i t h t h e r e s e a r c h e r . N o t e s on m e t h o d o l o g y w e r e made p e r i o d i c a l l y t h r o u g h t h e p e r i o d o f t h e s i s r e s e a r c h . T h i s was done w i t h t h e e x p e c t a t i o n i t w o u l d be u s e f u l i n t h e a n a l y s i s o f d a t a a n d i n f u t u r e d a t a c o l l e c t i o n w i t h t h e s e and o t h e r i n f o r m a n t s . 16 Chapter 3 INITIAL INTERVIEWS ON WORK HISTORY PROJECT 3.1 Tape 22 Rose Sparrow January 15, 1975 Tape 22, as noted above, was an introductory attempt to orient the d i r e c t i o n of research, to f a m i l i a r i z e both myself and my grandparents with the topic. This o r i g i n a l outline of questions (see page l o ) was related to general topics and c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s rather than s p e c i f i c personal information. The questions were intended only to provide a guideline for ideas to be re-worded and re-ordered as necessary. No r i g i d frame- work had yet been established. Grandmother began ordering responses to her own concepts and frame of reference very quickly, at times leaving the question apparently unanswered. When possible I related back to the o r i g i n a l question l i s t , attempting to integrate the questioning with her response. Grandmother began to explain her concept of work i n general, culture oriented terms. She moved quickly from the present to early t r a i n i n g , then to personal experiences. This account appears quite d i s j o i n t e d and unrelated to o r i g i n a l plans, but the richness of descriptive d e t a i l cannot be ignored. Tapes 22 and 23 were o r i g i n a l l y transcribed verbatim to f a m i l i a r i z e me with the responsiveness of my grandparents, and to assure no pertinent information was omitted. 17 Tape 22 Recorded: January 15, 1975 Rose Sparrow Musqueam QUESTIONS RELATED TO WORK HISTORY Question: Can you t e l l me how you spend your time, how you order your work and spare time? I spend my time during the day f i r s t of a l l I have to clean house the same as anybody else. Ah well, you know a l l the work I have to do like the bathtub i s housework included in i t or just the work I do. Question: Any kind of work you do? Well, f i r s t of a l l we had to learn how to clean house, wash clothes everything like that. Learn to be clean. Ed Sparrow: F i r s t of a l l you were a housewife. Rose: When we were single we were taught a l l that. Taught how to work, go out and work for yourself. Not making money. You learn how to go out and get things to work with. Like you go out and dig roots, cedar tree root for your roots. Bring i t home then s i t down and s p l i t them the length we want to use i t for you know. And then we're taught to make them (baskets)}. That's the f i r s t lessons we got as we were growing up. Like from seven years up we're taught that, taught how to make baskets. And another thing we have to be clean. F i r s t thing in the morning they wake us up early, t e l l us to go out and bath. Not in the hot water, but in the cold water outside somewhere, in a creek or a slough. Then you come out clean and then you do a l l your work. That's the f i r s t thing we're taught, to be clean. Keep yourself clean, your clothes clean, everything. 1 Entries in parentheses were added by the interviewer after transcription to c l a r i f y the text. 18 We enjoy doing a l l that. You know we used to climb up the mountain, go dig i t (roots for baskets). We were happy to do a l l those things because we knew we'd get some- thing out of i t . Because we knew when we'd get through making these l i t t l e baskets we were t o l d to go and s e l l them. We go s e l l them. I f we wanted cash I guess we'd ask for i t , but money didn't mean anything to us when we were children. Nothing, but we used to trade for whatever we thought we needed — clothing and a l l that for our work you know. When we were l i t t l e that's how we were ciothed because we didn't work for money. We trade i n our work for clothes and every- thing l i k e that. If you didn't have t h i s and that you make baskets and you go peddle i t . Whatever you ask f o r , you get i t , you trade i n . That's how we earned what we needed i n the house and clothing and a l l that. There was no jobs for us. We d i d have to go to work i n the f i e l d s weeding. We only used to get very l i t t l e for working out l i k e that. I used to go out with my great grandfather. 2 We used to get up early, get i n the canoe and then we'd go out and set net. Go back the next morning, get the f i s h , bring i t home, clean i t , smoke i t and a l l that. We didn't have no other way of saving i t but smoke i t , you know, or s a l t i t . We were taught to go out and work outside. Help with the groundwork, to plant our seeds and that what you need enough of. Plant those and so on. We learned how to do that. When the f a l l comes you dig i t up and put i t away. You were taught to help with everything l i k e that, l i k e getting wood. We'd go out and help cut the wood down, l i t t l e trees you know, cut them down. You need horses. When the f i r s t snowfall we used to go out and get the wood. Get great big sleighs and hi t c h the horses on and load i t down, take i t home. Get i t a l l cut up ready for the winter. Is that a l l alright, you can t e l l a l l those things? I used to help my great grandfather. He was very o l d and we went along to do a l l these things. In the winter we stopped making baskets because i t ' s so cold. You'd have to have water to dip your roots i n as you go along making them. That's where I f i r s t learned how to do t h i s wool I'm doing now (for Indian sweaters). My great grandmother used to spin and I watched her. She'd teach me how to spin t h i s wool you know and she taught me how to k n i t socks or something l i k e that. We learned a l l those things. We were taught everything l i k e that. We used to k n i t these socks and s e l l them i n the winter and they'd be cheap but we got our l i v i n g out of i t . •^Refer to Appendix C — GENEALOGY for references to names and family members. Question t Everyone contributed to supporting the family? Yes. We done i t because we knew we had to do i t . We had to do a l l these things to get along you know....through the years to come. We had to learn i t because when we grow up we had to do a l l these things afterwards. That's why we were taught to do a l l these things. Just l i k e you going to school. So we were taught a l l these things to take care of ourselves and our family i n years to come. That's why we were doing a l l these things. I was taught to go f i s h i n g . I used to go out alone i n a canoe and set my net, and go see i t , afterwards when I was old and b i g enough then to paddle my canoe. I went up and get a l l these things, f i s h , then take i t home. A l l those things and you have to know what to do. Another thing I forgot to t e l l you. I think i t ' s i n the f a l l . I was only a k i d , but, they had traps for muskrats then i n them days. We used to go set up traps to get these muskrats. We'd get them and I ' l l s t a r t to skin them, take the fur o f f and put i t on the boards, n a i l i t on, dry i t . I can skin muskrats, weasels, they were the smallest l i t t l e animals, the weasels, white ones. I know how to skin them. And I know how to skin mink. Mink are long and t h i n you know. I knew how to skin a l l that, put i t on a board and dry i t . That was another way of making money. We could s e l l i t . The fur buyers used to come along and buy i t a f t e r . So we knew we had to do t h i s , and we had to learn i t . When I got married he (Ed Sparrow) was doing the same thing, he was a trapper. I used to skin whatever he brought home. I'd skin them. He's gone for the day again and I'm home skinning them. Put them on the boards and dry them. Just to keep the children g o i - g . Question; Did you have times for relaxing? Oh yes. We'd s i t and relax i n the evening or i n the afternoon. I'd go out and s i t down with other ladies and we'd just s i t there or go out picking b e r r i e s . That's something. We'd go out picking wild b e r r i e s , enjoy ourselves i n the woods, picking them. That was our....well, pastime. To go out and get berries and bring i t home. I f we canned, then we canned them. That's a l l I can remember. We'd get together and we'd go out to a swimming pool or somewhere, stay there and have l o t s of fun. We done everything l i k e that. After I was married we used to take the kids out you know. Take them out swimming or go out i n the woods with them when the berries are r i p e . Teach them how to pick. I used to have a l l my children with me. I used to go up here (near Musqueam) i n the woods when i t was a l l my children. The l i t t l e boys, they used to love picking b e r r i e s , wild berries you know. Pick l o t s and stay up there. That was our pastime work. That's a l l I can remember now. 20 Question: (not on tape): Is looking a f t e r and r a i s i n g a family work? I'd say i t ' s work looking a f t e r your children, cause that's a hard job. You know, f i r s t thing i n the morning when I had l i t t l e kids. Get them up, the l i t t l e ones I'd bathe them; bath them, dress them, change t h e i r clothes. Every day I used to have them dressed i n the morning, clean clothes you know. And I used to scrub clothes by hand on a scrubbing board. We used to do that. And we had no tap water, nothing. We used to pack our water from over here. The corner over here where Geri (daughter) i s , r i g h t down to where our house i s way down there. In p a i l s , to do our laundry. And I used to wash a l l day sometimes. Of course when you're washing diapers you have to be washing every day, every morning. You can't miss one morning. Then you have a ce r t a i n day for washing your clothes, another day for that. And another day for i f you have to wash your sheets and blankets and a l l that, because we had a hard time getting water. The c i t y was f a r up, up there and we had no money to put i n water pipes or anything to get water. Our drinking water was up the spring up here, the spring water up here. In the early evening the boys would go pack water. Send the boys and they'd go up there, get p a i l s of water. We'd always send them up there. That's for cooking and drinking. But for washing clothes we used to come to t h i s well over here. We didn't want to drink that i n the well that was up there. We jiust use that for washing. And I scrub my f l o o r s . Wooden f l o o r , we didn't have the carpets or anything. Every weekend I'm scrubbing the house. Indians weren't dirty J We t r i e d to beat to see who'd have the cleanest f l o o r a l l down there. Scrub our f l o o r s . Now we've got linoleum we don't even think of doing that. I'd get up maybe 6:00 or e a r l i e r . I'm on my feet when my children are small t i l l the time they're a l l i n bed. I feed them. About 8:00 I say time to go to bed boys. F i r s t of a l l , you guys got to say your prayers. I t o l d them kneel down on the c h e s t e r f i e l d . They a l l kneel down say t h e i r prayers. In a l i t t l e while W i l l a r d would be sneaking back l i k e t h i s . I t o l d him — no, no, you say your prayers now. After that they a l l go to bed. It was a res t for me then. I s i t down. We didn't have no radio, nothing. Well, whatever I wanted to do that evening I would. Bake something, or something for the next day. That was our evening. Then I'd go to bed because I know I have to be up early to s t a r t a l l over again the same routine. Bathe them, change them, wash. 21 I don't know r e a l l y what kind of work I d i d a f t e r I had my children. I was r e a l l y j ust a mother. I done a l l the housework and the washing. That's a l l I could handle you know. Question; You don't think of i t as being d i f f e r e n t kinds of work? No. Just to work to take care of your family. How to r a i s e them, healthy. After they grew up I went to work. We used to t r y and weed to make a l i t t l e money — you know i n the gardens. I don't know i f I have to t e l l that. We done everything. We used to go out the Point (Point Grey) there i n the spring, a l l the women. Pick seaweed, number one seaweed down the Point. We'd pick the seaweed, dry them, and s e l l them for money. That's work. And another thing we used to go a f t e r was the Cascara bark. That's making money, that's work. We used to go peel the trees, take i t home, pack i t home, the bark. Dry i t and af t e r i t ' s dry, we s e l l them. That was making money for a l i v i n g too. But Dad (Ed Sparrow), he used to work hard. He cut cordwood because i n them days they couldn't get no job nowhere i f they wanted to. They wouldn't hi r e anybody. That's when my kinds were growing up I was doing that. But afterwards when fehey grew up, then I went to work for the cannery. I worked u n t i l I was 60. I worked just to keep going you know. Buy clothes for the kids. We weren't making enough to save. We used to be lucky to get by. Question: Your main concern was ju s t to keep the family going? Keep the family going, yes. But a f t e r , when I worked i n the cannery I saved my money I was making cause a l l my kids were gone now. They a l l grew up. Eddy and Geri were the only ones I had. Question: Are you working r i g h t now? I'm working r i g h t now. Every hour of the day. F i r s t thing i n the morning I'm spinning wool downstairs then I'm k n i t t i n g . Question: Is t h i s work, what you're t e l l i n g me now; the recording? I t must be, because I'm working (knitting) and t a l k i n g both. 2 2 I was taught to dig roots and make baskets from seven years o l d up. We had to learn a l l those things as we were growing up to fourteen or f i f t e e n years. Then we knew every- thing what to do then. To dig your root, make your basket, and work on the farm. We learned a l l that from childhood. We were taught. Question: Where were you raised; what d i d you do a f t e r fourteen or f i f t e e n years of age? Up Chilliwack. Then I got married — sixteen when I got married. I wasn't the f i r s t one to get married at that age. Them days, that was the Indian s t y l e . Long ago the Indians marry o f f t h e i r children young — the g i r l s . You weren't allowed to go out the way they do now. They stay home, taught to work. F i r s t thing you know someone propose to them for t h e i r daughter i f she was fourteen or f i f t e e n or sixteen. They l e t them go. I don't know what you c a l l i t , i f they wanted to have a good name or something, but that was t h e i r ways. Marry o f f t h e i r daughter young. In them days i t was against t h e i r laws I guess or whatever they c a l l i t , they t e l l t h e i r daughter when you get married don't you leave your husband. They say i t was a disgrace i f a g i r l goes and l i v e s with a guy fo r so long and leave. I t was a disgrace to the family and to the t r i b e . That was t h e i r ways. There was no such thing as divorces i n the Indians, nothing. I went to school up Chilliwack for a l i t t l e while. I didn't go steady to higher grades because my great grandparents was the ones that raised me and they didn't know any better. Well, when you're a c h i l d you don't know. They were o l d . I think I ju s t went to school for a couple of years. Just learned how to write my name and write a l i t t l e b i t . My mother died when I was three years o l d and I was brought up by /these o l d people, my( )great grandparents. So I was brought up the hard way; I t wasn't easy. My great grandmother used to go to work everyday. She used to go work for the white people and I stayed home. I had to t r y and do what she did, during the day. Try to do housework and t r y to help the old man i n as many ways as I could...cooking or something...After I was about seven or eight years o l d you know. But they were my parents, my great grandparents. When my great grandfather would go out f i s h i n g he'd take me along. I'd be s i t t i n g i n the bow of the canoe. I remember, I don't know how o l d I was. I (don't) quite remember. I had a l i t t l e bed there...a blanket for me. I'd go to sleep there. When he goes out f i s h i n g , I'd be with my great grandfather. Question; What was your great grandmother doing when she was working out? Washing clothes. Every day she'd go work wash clothes f o r these people. One day she'd be another house, next day she'd be another. You know, keep on l i k e that. My great 23 grandfather couldn't work. He was too o l d . His job was staying home and looking a f t e r the f i s h . He'd go f i s h i n g and bring i t home. Then he'd work on the garden — you know, weeding or hoeing the potatoes. Or he'd be cutting wood. Get a l l the wood cut and he'd pack i t home. He'd chop i t up and I M pack i t i n the kitchen, l i n e i t a l l up so my great grandmother would have a l l that ready when she gets home. Go down the well, and pack water. Two p a i l s , bring i t i n there a l l set. We done a l l that. I'd go home and cook you know. I was brought up i n hard way because o l d people l i k e that. They done the best way they could to bring me up. I didn't have much schooling because nobody t o l d them you better. Nobody was there to t e l l them you better send her to school I guess, or something l i k e that. I was ju s t brought up at home the best way they brought me up. I was fed good anyways. Question: When you were r a i s i n g your own family how did you work to make money? Like what I was t e l l i n g you. We go pick seaweeds, pick the Cascara bark. That's at home here (Musqueam). And then we learned how to spin wool afterwards here. I used to make socks and s e l l i t to the stores i n town after we learned how to do the wool. But i t took a long time before we found out what to do about making the wool into yarn. I t took a long time to get that i n my head anyways. That was another way of making money. He (Ed Sparrow) used to f i s h . Go f i s h i n g , and cutting cordwood to s e l l . That's how we raised our family. There was no steady job anywhere. We had to do whatever you can do just around home here. We never got no r e l i e f l i k e what they're getting now. No welfare. I f you go to the Indian Department. He got hurt and broke h i s leg once. We went there (Indian Department) — they wouldn't give him (any money). No way, the government would say. Oh, $3.00 a month i s what they gave the old people that can't work no more — $3.50 — Know what they used get (for $3.50)? L i t t l e sack of f l o u r , l i t t l e bag of r i c e , l i t t l e bag of white beans, tea. I don't know i f they got sugar — oh, a l i t t l e bag. $3.50, mind you, for a whole month! You had to l i v e on that! And they wouldn't give i t to me because he was able to work. But he broke his leg that time. I had the whole family, yeah — I had about seven or eight c h i l d r e n . How we got by I don't know. When the kids grew up, about seven or eight years o l d , they went to thefeboarding school. I ju s t had the l i t t l e ones with me. But they used to come home every weekend to us or every other week (weekend). Stay with us overnight (probaby 24 F r i d a y n i g h t to Saturday n i g h t ) and go back. They used t o t r y and do l i t t l e t h i n g s t o help us. P i l e wood f o r t h e i r Dad when he was c u t t i n g wood. And when the h o l i d a y came they used t o go out w i t h t h e i r Dad and t r y and h e l p f i s h i n g . That was Ronny and them d i d t h a t — go w i t h t h e i r Dad f i s h i n g — and I'm home w i t h the r e s t . That's how they l e a r n how t o be fishermen, they went out w i t h t h e i r Dad, f i s h i n g — W i l l a r d and Ronny. So Ronny knows what a tough l i f e he went through. ( I t was rough?) "3 i n them days. There was no such t h i n g as TV o r r a d i o . The k i d s when they get up, they d i d n ' t j u s t l o a f around, they worked. They helped. I f I'm c l e a n i n g house they helped. I f I'm going t o wash the f l o o r s they helped. They never j u s t l o a f e d around. They ask what's t o be done and they do i t . The problem we used t o have: pack wood i n , boys. The lamps, e a r l y i n the morning they had t o be c l e a n e d , we used c o a l lamps and they had t o wash the g l o b e s , get i t a l l ready f o r the next n i g h t . That was t h e i r j o b . T h e i r job was t o f i x t h e i r beds, c l e a n t h e i r room . I n d i a n k i d s were taught l i k e t h a t . They weren't l a z y . Not l i k e now. I don»t see anybody do t h a t anymore. No more lamps I guess I But they knew now t o keep a house c l e a n . One t h i n g when Dad was f i s h i n g we used t o go out camping. Leave home here. We'd go t o Westham I s l a n d o r somewhere — Brunswick they c a l l i t , way down below Canoe Pass. We used t o go t h a t way t o f i s h . We s t a y e d i n t h i s cannery shack. W e l l , t h a t ' s where I r e a l l y worked. He (Ed Sparrow) b r i n g s the f i s h i n on the weekends. Then I'd c u t the f i s h . Sometimes I'd do a hundred f i s h i n one day — f i l l e t them. And we'd smoke some, and s a l t some, and I'd can some. I f I had any canning I'd do i t one day. Then the next time I smoke i t — t h a t ' s another day's work another week. Smoke the f i s h , get i t a l l hung up and smoke i t . Then we do t h a t f o r about a month o r more. Smoking f i s h , s a l t i t , canning f i s h , e v e r y t h i n g l i k e t h a t . That's f o r our w i n t e r supply, when we get t h a t a l l done and they used t o p i c k potatoes over t h e r e and we'd go help the farmers p i c k p o t a t o e s . Sometimes we used t o take potatoes home. They'd g i v e us so much. L i k e , i f we d i d n ' t want cash we'd get p o t a t o e s . We take t h a t home and we don't need much more f o r our w i n t e r supply. Because we d i d n ' t have time t o do our garden then. He was too busy f i s h i n g , and I was over t h e r e d r y i n g f i s h . A t t h a t time we d i d n ' t have a horse or anything t o do the p l o u g h i n g here. So we d i d n ' t do farming here r i g h t away. But when I was up r i v e r I d i d . But here they d i d n ' t , because they had farmers a l l over here. Chinese, so t h e y d i d n ' bother doing t h a t . D i f f i c u l t t o hear on tape when qu e s t i o n e d . 25 Question; D i d you s e l l any o f the f i s h you smokeSor canned? No, j u s t f o r o u r s e l v e s . Keep us going f o r the wi n t e r and s p r i n g . We went th e r e i n the summer and stayed t h e r e t i l l l a t e i n the f a l l . October I guess when we come home, hey Dad, November? We were t h e r e a l l summer t i l l the season c l o s e d , then we move home. Question; Did you do t h a t f o r q u i t e a few years? Oh yeah, many y e a r s . We j u s t move from one p l a c e t o the o t h e r . The l a s t p l a c e we were a t was i n Westham I s l a n d . We stayed t h e r e I don't know how many years — we s t a y t h e r e i n the summer and f a l l and then we come home. Get e v e r y t h i n g done th e r e t o o . I'd smoke f i s h t here too, do the same t h i n g . I wasn't i d l e . He (Ed) used t o go hunting. He l i k e d h u n t i n g ducks and e v e r y t h i n g . When we weren't f i s h i n g he'd get ducks and he'd go hunting game sometimes. 26 By c o m p a r i n g t h e l i s t o f p r o p o s e d q u e s t i o n s ( s e e page 10 ) w i t h a c t u a l q u e s t i o n s p r e s e n t e d , t h e f l e x i b i l i t y i n f o r m a t e v e n a t t h i s p o i n t i s e v i d e n t . Rose was o b v i o u s l y more c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h r e s p o n s e s s h e c o u l d r e l a t e t o d i r e c t l y . S i n c e s h e was a l i t t l e a p p r e h e n s i v e a b o u t t a p e r e c o r d i n g i n f o r m a t i o n , i t was an a d v a n t a g e t o b o t h o f us t o a l l o w h e r t h i s f r e e d o m . G r a n d m o t h e r c a r r i e d t h i s u n e a s i n e s s a b o u t d i r e c t q u e s t i o n i n g t h r o u g h o u t t h e r e s e a r c h . The e a r l y t r a i n i n g r e f e r r e d t o was i n t r a d i t i o n a l o r a b o r i g i n a l a c t i v i t i e s m a i n l y . T h e s e i n c l u d e d c o l l e c t i n g r o o t s , m a k i n g b a s k e t s a n d s o c k s t o t r a d e o r s e l l , g a r d e n i n g , c o l l e c t i n g wood, f i s h i n g a n d t r a p p i n g . The t r e n d i n t h i s d e s c r i p t i o n i s t o f a m i l y o r i e n t e d and l i f e s u s t a i n i n g w ork w h i c h i s n o t p a r t i c u l a r l y r e l a t e d t o e a r n i n g money o r a c c u m u l a t i n g g o o d s a n d w e a l t h . L e i s u r e a c t i v i t i e s a r e d i s c u s s e d b r i e f l y a n d w e r e f a m i l y o r i e n t e d . I n h e r a c c o u n t o f w o r k , G r a n d m o t h e r h a s o u t l i n e d a d a i l y and w e e k l y r o u t i n e r e v o l v i n g a r o u n d t h e f a m i l y . She h a s s e p a r a t e d h e r a c t i v i t y i n t o a p a t t e r n : b e f o r e m a r r i a g e , r a i s i n g a f a m i l y , w o r k a f t e r t h e f a m i l y . She r e l a t e s a s p e c t s o f h e r p e r s o n a l and f a m i l y h i s t o r y t o w o r k t y p e , l o c a t i o n , s e a s o n , n e c e s s i t y , a n d e a r n i n g c a p a c i t y . A c o n s p i c u o u s f e a t u r e i s t h e v a r i e t y o f a c t i v i t i e s i n t r o d u c e d a n & d i s c u s s e d b y G r a n d m o t h e r . The t r a n s c r i p t i s a b r i e f w o r k h i s t o r y , v e r y much o u t o f s e q u e n c e , b u t d e s c r i p t i v e e n o u g h t o be p i e c e d t o g e t h e r . A f t e r l i s t e n i n g t o t h i s t a p e and t r a n s c r i b i n g t h e d a t a I d e c i d e d i t w o u l d b e more f e a s i b l e a n d p r o d u c t i v e t o a l t e r t h e q u e s t i o n i n g f o r m a t . By d o i n g t h i s I h o p e d t o f i n d a means o f c o l l e c t i n g d a t a on w o r k , a t t i t u d e s t o w o r k , w o r k c a t e g o r i e s , a nd w o r k h i s t o r i e s w h i c h an i n f o r m a n t c o u l d r e l a t e t o more e a s i l y . Q u e s t i o n i n g w h i c h c o u l d be u t i l i z e d i n a s u r v e y a p p r o a c h seemed i r r e l e v a n t t o my G r a n d m o t h e r . I t i s p o s s i b l e t h a t t h i s i s p a r t i a l l y a r e s u l t o f t h e c l o s e p r e d e t e r m i n e d i n t e r v i e w e r - i n f o r m a n t r e l a t i o n s h i p . A n o t h e r i n t e r v i e w e r may h a v e e l i c i t e d l e s s s u b j e c t i v e r e s p o n s e s . 28 3.2 Tape 23 Ed Sparrow February 18, 1975 The approach to recording t h i s tape with Grandfather d i f f e r s from the f i r s t recording with Grandmother. From categories and c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s of work on a broad c u l t u r a l l e v e l , the questioning s h i f t e d to a personal l e v e l . The stress was to be on r e c a l l about s e l f rather than making judgments and s e t t i n g up c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s . I f e l t the revised questioning should be tested with him to see i f his response would be at a l l s i m i l a r to Rose's. If the summary of work history was a successful means of c o l l e c t i n g basic data on occupation, d i v i s i o n of labor, location and season, etc., i t would be used to obtain s i m i l a r information from a group of informants. At t h i s point the idea of working with eight or ten informants was s t i l l a part of the objective. The intention was to gather a series of work history outlines i f the work history summary was f e a s i b l e . Data would then be assimilated to determine possible work patterns, seasonal cycles, d i v i s i o n of labor, and contributions to the developing economy. I f t h i s evolved, further b r i e f interviews related only to these areas would have followed. Grandfather was asked a day or two before recording t h i s p a r t i c u l a r tape i f he could be prepared to record a b r i e f summary of the work or jobs he had done throughout h i s l i f e . This would include dates, location, employer, and fellow workers wherever possible. Again, t h i s recording was to be a t e s t of methodology. 29 G r a n d f a t h e r was s e l e c t e d as i n f o r m a n t f o r t h i s s e s s i o n p a r t i a l l y b e c a u s e o f t h e f a m i l y r e l a t i o n s h i p t h r o u g h w h i c h r a p p o r t f o r t h i s t o p i c h a d a l r e a d y b e e n e s t a b l i s h e d . E q u a l l y a s i m p o r t a n t i n s e l e c t i n g h i m was t h e f a c t h e was n o t i n v o l v e d i n g a r d e n i n g o r o t h e r w o r k a t t h i s t i m e a nd h a d n o i m m e d i a t e p l a n s f o r t r a v e l l i n g . He was a l s o w e l l m o t i v a t e d t o b e g i n t a p e r e c o r d i n g a t l e a s t a s m a l l p a r t o f h i s h i s t o r y — e s p e c i a l l y s i n c e G r a n d m o t h e r h a d a l r e a d y b e g u n t a p i n g . A f t e r t h e a c t u a l r e c o r d i n g , G r a n d f a t h e r r e c a l l e d a g r e a t d e a l more i n f o r m a t i o n he t h o u g h t s h o u l d be t o l d . He d i d n o t h o w e v e r , c o n s i d e r i t s h o u l d n e c e s s a r i l y be r e c o r d e d , a n d d i d n o t w a n t t o w a i t w h i l e a n o t h e r t a p e was s e t up. N o t e s w e r e e n o u g h . A s l i g h t l y e d i t e d v e r s i o n o f t h e s e n o t e s i s i n c l u d e d a f t e r t h e t r a n s c r i p t . G r a n d m o t h e r was a l s o p r e s e n t d u r i n g t h e r e c o r d i n g s e s s i o n . She was b u s y w i t h h e r own w o r k , b u t l i s t e n i n g t o t h e i n t e r a c t i o n . She was n o t d i s c o u r a g e d f r o m b e i n g t h e r e . I t was c o n s i d e r e d a g o o d means o f f a m i l i a r i z i n g h e r w i t h t h e n a t u r e o f t h e a l t e r e d q u e s t i o n i n g , w i t h o u t g i v i n g s p e c i f i c i n s t r u c t i o n s . I a n t i c i p a t e d t h i s w o u l d a l s o s t i m u l a t e h e r r e c a l l f o r e v e n t s i n h e r own w o r k h i s t o r y . Q u e s t i o n i n g h e r e was i n t e n d e d t o e l i c i t a b r i e f summary o f G r a n d f a t h e r ' s p a s t w o r k , i n c l u d i n g l o c a t i o n , t i m e , d u r a t i o n , e m p l o y e r , a n d s h o r t d e s c r i p t i o n s . When p o s s i b l e , h e was a s k e d t o s p e c i f y how j o b s w e r e a c q u i r e d , w h a t t h e w o r k i n g o r l i v i n g c o n d i t i o n s w e r e , and e a r n i n g p o t e n t i a l . T h i s i s e s s e n t i a l l y t h e same i n f o r m a t i o n s o u g h t i n t h e f i r s t r e c o r d i n g s e s s i o n w i t h R o s e , b u t w i t h f e w e r r e s t r i c t i o n s a n d g u i d e l i n e s . 30 Tape 23 Recorded: February 18, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrow Musqueam WORK HISTORY OUTLINE I could s t a r t back i n 1906 and 1907 when I started to work as a k i d , you know. I worked i n the canneries shooting cans down from the can l o f t s . Five cents an hour. Question: Where was that? C e l t i c cannery. We did that for a couple of years (v e r i f y from notes) (worked with Joe Peter, Alex and Andrew Peter — we had fun. I was about the youngest). Then l a t e r on we were d r i v i n g logs down the slough here, you know. There was a camp over here j u s t about where the Musqueam Park i s now. I used to hold the l i g h t s f o r Dunstan Campbell when they were d r i v i n g logs down. Every night when the tide was going out we'd be out there d r i v i n g logs down. Walk along the dyke. I don't know — he gave ae whatever he f e l t l i k e . Well, I was glad to get the extra odd d o l l a r , you know. I didn't know where I spent i t . I don't remember. There was no store or nothing. I kind of think I gave everything I made to my grandmother, you know, because there was no way of me spending money here unless I walked to Vancouver then,, < Then we used to go af t e r cannery work. The grand- parents go up Sardis, Chilliwack — pick hops. I'd help them r i g h t along picking for a box of popcorn or something. Question: Did you spend avmonth or so up there, or a week? Just about a month, I guess we were up there. Question: Did you go up alone or with the family? You go up on the stern wheeler. I think they c a l l e d i t 'Sampson' then. Every year, well I don't know how long they kept on, but they move r i g h t a f t e r ( f i s h i n g season).. 31 They used to close the season down here, you know, ending July or so. Then the 10th of August I think they Used to close the season down, no more f i s h i n g from there on. But the ending of August people would move r i g h t up to Chilliwack for hop picking. I used to go out, get up the same time as my grand- parents would. Go up i n the f i e l d , 5:00 - 6:00 o'clock i n the morning, stay there t i l l j u s t about the same time i n the evening, afternoon. I don't know what they were getting. I don't know how much they were getting for i t then. Question: That's when you were pretty young, i s i t ? YeahI That's before I went to school we were doing a l l these, you know. Then i n 1909 I went to school. (Coqualeetza) Nothing much from there except school work. Then 1911 I started boat-pulling for my granduncle. Sailboat days then. I started f i s h i n g , you know. I'd f i s h a l l summer with him. Question: Was that j u s t i n the r i v e r here? Terra Nova Cannery. I t ' s i n the middle arm they c a l l i t . I used to f i s h with him maybe, every holiday I fished with him for a while. Used to buy my clothes and one thing and another. I was s a t i s f i e d you know. I fished with him about two, three years, I guess. In 1913 I fished with Tommy Cole. There was the biggest run ever I guess, on sockeye at that time. We'd only make one d r i f t , l i m i t e d to one hundred and f i f t y sockeye to one boat every day. I t was that way for a l i t t l e over a week there, l i m i t e d to one hundred and f i f t y t i l l the run kind of passed over, then they'd open i t out again. We'd go out make one d r i f t j u s t when the tid e s r i g h t and when we get i n I'd go and work i n the cannery. I'd help them t a l l y i n g f i s h . I done that for two, three years. Weekends while I was f i s h i n g with Tommy I used to go and work at anything I could get i n the cannery, you know. Mostly t a l l y i n g f i s h or weighing f i s h . Question: Was i t pretty easy to get on there? Well yes, as long as you knew how to read or count, or press the counting machine. Well, they trusted me although I was quite young. I knew the manager pretty well that's the reason why I was getting on, I guess. The year a f t e r that 1914, 1915 I fished with the o l d f e l l a again. Tommy Musqueam, he's a cousin of my grandfather. In 1916 I thought I could handle a boat myself — a sailboat. I kept up with the guys but i t got so poor i t wasn't worthwhile f i s h i n g . That's the l a s t time I went f i s h i n g for a long time a f t e r that. 32 I went t o s t a r t working i n the l o g g i n g camps. Ques t i o n : Was t h e r e poor f i s h i n g f o r everybody? Yes. See t h e r e was a s l i d e i n H e l l ' s Gate and the f i s h can't g e t through t o spawn. 1913 when t h a t happened. 1914 wasn't too bad, the f i s h were g e t t i n g o u t . . . . I t go so bad you'd o n l y get two hundred, t h r e e hundred sockeye i n the season, whereas you get two, t h r e e thousand b e f o r e , you know. I t got so bad i t wasn't worthwhile, because you were o n l y g e t t i n g f i f t e e n o r twenty c e n t s a sockeye then. I worked i n a l o g g i n g camp every chance I got, you know. I worked around here f o r awhile but t h e r e was n o t h i n g much doing here. I went out i n camps and stayed t h e r e f o r two, t h r e e months, come home. Gave what I got earned t o my grandmother, go back a g a i n . I kept doing t h a t u n t i l 1918 I s t a r t e d d r i v i n g a team. H a u l i n g wood out f o r a wood d e a l e r . I done t h a t f o r about a y e a r , I guess around here. I t was j u s t as w e l l t o work a t home because you g o t t a pay board i n the l o g g i n g camps. I t ' s hard to make an y t h i n g too, you know — v e r y l i t t l e . Q u e s t i o n : What wages d i d you get i n the camps? They o n l y g i v e me $3 a day. I t ' s a ten hour day. You g o t t a get up a t 5:00 and s t a r t w a lking t o get t o where the work i s a t 7:00 — when the w h i s t l e blows i f you're not t h e r e , they g i v e you a w a l k i n g t i c k e t . Q u e s t i o n : What k i n d s o f jobs d i d you do i n the camps? I s t a r t e d wood bucking. They had steam donkeys i n them days, you know. I used t o go out, watch those guys what th e y ' r e doing. I'd c u t a whole bunch of wood, get ahead. Then I'd go out and watch what they're d o i n g . I wanted a l i v i n g and I was o n l y g e t t i n g $2.75 a day then as a wood c u t t e r I guess, I don't know. You c u t them i n s h o r t l e n g t h s you know, j u s t enough t o use f o r the f i r e p l a c e . Then I'd go out and watch. S t a r t watching the r i g g i n g s , how they work i t I d i d t h a t f o r about a month o r so then I q u i t the j o b , came back and h i r e d out the chaser. You go a l o n g w i t h the l o g as they p u l l them out, you know. I f they get stuck or h i t a stump o r something then you change the h o l d . R o l l i t o r you can bar-buckle the t h i n g and jump i t over. I d i d t h a t f o r q u i t e a w h i l e . Then, l a t e r on I went.... i t was o n l y about $ 3 a day f o r t h a t j o b , you know. We had t o pay $1 a day f o r board. Then I went hooking on the s k y l i n e . Get a l i t t l e more money on t h e r e . That's about the) l a s t j o b I d i d i n t h a t camp. I q u i t t h e r e (Halfmoon Bay) about 1918, I guess. I was a l l over the c o a s t , you know. I changed camps q u i t e o f t e n . You can't s t a y too l o n g i n one p l a c e . Some- times the food i s no good. You o n l y stay t i l l payday then you get out o f t h e r e . One p l a c e I got to on Toba I n l e t 33 (1916 or 17), I think I l o s t about twenty pounds. I couldn't eat nothing they had there. They had no r e f r i g e r a t o r or i c e box or nothing there. By the time the food got up there i t ' s rotten. That was bacon and eggs. We got out of there — there was three or four of us up there from here, you know. I forgot — the Grants were up there for whistle punk, and Andrew Charles was there with me and Joe Peter. We had a hard time to get out of there. That place was is o l a t e d . No boats go i n there; we had to hire a boat out to get out. That was kind of a dangerous place there, you know r i g h t on the r i v e r . I was twenty ; before I went to Halfmoon Bay a f t e r that. I was a l l over. I was over on Indian Arm. I was there working about a couple of months, I guess i n a logging camp too. I was rigging t h i s thing then. That's a l i t t l e better job again. I q u i t then we went back to work i n the cannery. I was with my wife then, you know. We worked i n Vancouver Can- nery for a l l summer. We made about seventy-five cents per hour, that's a l l we got. Most of the time we were unloading some f i s h . When there was noi boats around I go on r e t o r t s , go wash cans. Question; Was that cannery r i g h t i n Vancouver? On Sea Island, the south side of Sea Island. We worked there a couple of seasons, I guess. Then 1920 we went up to Chilliwack. We were working there and we decided to go hop picking. We went up i n the gas boat a l l the way to Chilliwack. We came down a f t e r i t was a l l over. What was i t , seventy-five cents a box? Rose Sparrow; No, a d o l l a r a box. Ed; I don't know i f we made any money, but we got home anyways. The year a f t e r that I cut wood around here to make a l i v i n g . Question; Did you s e l l wood l o c a l l y ? A wood buyer would come down here. We'd cut a l l along the bush around here, you know. Well, a f t e r I got through d r i v i n g a team I got a McGregor to cut wood, you know, cut wood for contracting. One guy was with me a l l the time. A l o t of d i f f e r e n t guys worked with me. I'd pay them a d o l l a r a cord for s p l i t t i n g . I was only getting $3 a cord for the wood. I had d i f f e r e n t s p l i t t e r s . Every now and then they'd q u i t . I used to walk a l l the way to Imperial Road — that's way up about 28th, I guess. Walk there every morning. Then l a t e r on there was hardly any more wood to cut up there, you know, a n d we q u i t . 34 I started cutting shingle bolts just on t h i s side of UBC. I used to go up there every day on a b i c y c l e . Worked there for two, three months, I guess. Then i n the spring of 1920 we l e f t here, we went up Chilliwack. And, stayed there u n t i l i t started to cap again (winter). I worked i n logging camps. For awhile I was ju s t a handyman. Almost anything the boss t o l d me to do you had to do i t or else get f i r e d . Swamping; i t was a skid road camp, team camp they c a l l e d i t i n those days, I guess. They haul logs with a four horse team, they c a l l e d i t . I'd swamp the roads for them and lay the skids for them. I was doing that pretty near a l l summer and part of the f a l l and winter. About 1921 I got started working the booms. I stayed with i t f o r a long time. Question: Is there more money i n working the booms? Oh yeah, I got $5 a day then for being a head boom man, you know. That was b i g money I guess i n them days. I didn't know. The other guys were getting $3.00, $3.50 a day. I was getting better pay, getting as much as the teamsters were, I guess. I worked at Queen's Island for about a year, I guess. I used to get up at 4:00 i n the morning. You can't stay there on account of the freshet. You have to cross over on the boat every morning. We used to get up at 4:00 i n the morning, run about a mile on a bike, get on a boat and cross over. Took about an hour to cross over on a gas boat. I d i d that for a long time, then camp moved to F a i r f i e l d Island. That's out- side of Rosedale. I stayed on the booms then. I don't know how long we were there. Then i t moved to Canal. I t was too low for a boom i n the canal, too shallow. That's before they dredged i t — the Vedder Canal, you know. I had the boom on the outside r i g h t on the r i v e r . When we f i r s t got there i n the f a l l the canal was too low to boom so I had to boom on the outside r i g h t i n the r i v e r . You couldn't control nothing for a long time there. The r i v e r catch the t a i l of the boom and bounce i t up and down. We'd drive logs down and the thing would shoot r i g h t underneath (out of boom). ... The boss was short of blaming me for i t and I couldn't help i t . I t o l d him the only thing they could do i s l e t a whole bunch of logs down dogged to- gether. Line them a l l up and dog i t together, snub i t down. He says you're gonna lose me l o t s of money i f you lose a l l these logs. Well you've l o s t l o t s already, you've gotta t r y something I says to him. You leave me alone I ' l l see what I can do, I says to him. He'd already l o s t about f i f t e e n or twenty logs. I got a whole bunch of logs, l a i d them abreast and dogged them up. Bind them up t i g h t and you lower i t down with a team by block, h i t the t a i l and i t stopped bouncing. 35 And we had a snubber t h e r e t o h o l d i t . That's how we d i d i t f o r a long time, a l l w i n t e r . In the meantime they dredged the c a n a l and I boomed th e r e f o r , oh, about a year, I guess, r i g h t through the winter, Logs were dumped on top of the i c e . You g o t t a be c a r e f u l what you do t h e r e . F a l l overboard i f t h e r e ' s i c e on your shoe. Must have been about 1926. I got ahead o f my s t o r y somewhere. I n 1924 I went back f i s h i n g a g a i n i n the summer months I s t a r t e d t o go up Skeena. When I get back from f i s h i n g I'd go back t o the camp ag a i n , you know. The j o b was always open f o r me th e r e on the boom. They g i v e me two months o f f every y e a r . I d i d t h a t f o r 1924 u n t i l 1927 then we moved home. F i s h e d every year up Skeena. Question; Did the f a m i l y go w i t h you t o Skeena? D i d you use a company boat? a No, I was going up t h e r e alone f o r awhile. I used company boat — s a i l b o a t days. There was no gas boats up t h e r e then, you know. They were towed up and down t h e r e . You never get d r i f t s i f th e r e ' s no wind. A tug boat would be w a i t i n g down a t the mouth of the r i v e r . You g o t t a l i n e up a whole bunch o f guys b e f o r e h e ' l l tow you back a g a i n , because you can ' t p u l l (row) a g a i n s t the stream, t i d e . A whole bunch o f .us would come up t o g e t h e r . The same t h i n g was happening around S t e v e s t o n , a l l along t h e r e . They had tug boats w a i t i n g f o r them. No wind and they'd tow them upstream and t e y ' d a l l s t a r t d r i f t i n g down a g a i n . I was doing t h a t f o r about t h r e e y e a r s then I got a company gas boat. They j u s t c u t o f f the o l d s a i l b o a t . Cut down p a r t o f the bloody s t e r n , put a s h a f t and p r o p e l l e r t h e r e , f i v e - s i x horsepower motor. Long as i t made n o i s e you thought you were going t o beat h e l l ! I d i d t h a t f o r a couple o f y e a r s . Then I got my own boat i n 1928. Imagine g e t t i n g a new boat f o r $1,180! Engine, e v e r y t h i n g complete. That's what I p a i d f o r the f i r s t one I got, you know. We got f r e e n e t s then. As long as you went up t h e r e and worked f o r the company they gave you f r e e n e t s . No matter how much l e a d l i n e you l o s e , they change i t f o r you, g i v e you some more at no c o s t . Question; What company was t h i s ? Wallace, Tom Wallace (B.C. Packers took over Ed S.) I guess i t was 1928 - 29 when the canning companies amalga- mated. B. C. Packers, Tom Wallace and some of the o t h e r companies. That's when they became B. C. Packers, t h a t ' s what she's (Rose Sparrow) t a l k i n g about. I d i d a l l r i g h t but f i s h were so poor. A c t u a l l y a l o t o f salmon a l l r i g h t , but p r i c e was poor. The f i r s t y ear I went up t h e r e I was o n l y g e t t i n g 20? a sockeye, 1924. 36 But we didn't know the place, but I managed to come home with a couple hundred d o l l a r s from there. That was quite good money i n them days, you know. I think i t was 1930 sockeye were only 35* each then. I t stayed that way f o r '35, '36, '37. F i n a l l y i n '42 i t reached 50* apiece. There was a big s t r i k e on i n 1930 up there (Skeena). We only fished about four weeks. Well, I was onto the r i v e r then. I did pretty well, I came home with $400-$500, I guess. Question: Did you get a higher p r i c e for your strike? No, we just wasted time t i e d up f o r three weeks. The Japanese Association were looking af t e r i t then. I mean they were the leaders. Up to today we don't know i f they got a better p r i c e for t h e i r f i s h or not. Anyways they Ve-v»t b&z.y:ir\^ off and never l e t us know when they went o f f , you know. They might have had four to f i v e hundred sockeye before we got out. No warning. I suppose they got settlement of some kind but we didn't get i t . I should have t o l d you about 1913. There was a big s t r i k e on too, you know. F i f t e e n cents apiece f o r sockeye at that time. We were t i e d up for about a week, week and a half, I guess - I kept f i s h i n g year after year, cut wood i n the o f f season, trapped. Did pretty well trapping muskrats, only i t ' s hard work. By time you get through and get home i t ' s 3 - 4 o'clock i n the morning, sometimes daylight when I'd get home. Go over our traps mostly at night time, u n t i l about February, then we go at daytime, early i n the morning. Question: Did you trap r i g h t around here? A l l over — Sea Island, Lulu Island, go out i n the car, and I trapped across there on Iona Island. Your dad (Ron Sparrow, Sr.) used to go trap with me when he f i r s t l e f t school. We had to keep going to make a l i v i n g . Things were kinda hard. I t was hard to make money. I f you didn't make any more than $400 - $500 a year. We managed to l i v e on about $400 - $500 a year then. As the family increased I had to keep on working. No time to lay o f f . I kept cutting wood. Sometimes you can't get a buyer, your wood would be laying there for awhile. You wonder how you're going to make your d o l l a r . A f t e r , i f I got stuck with wood I'd go back trapping again. We did good at times. Other times, I think i n 1940 furs were r e a l cheap — 40* apiece for muskrats. I don't know what happened that time. 37 FISHERMEN'S STRIKE: 1913 I think they got 15* ia fish) A buyer came around. When you throw your net o f f , you know you get four to f i v e hundred sockeyes. What are you going to do with the rest? Some of them just threw i t away. Question: Was there a quota on how many you could turn in? Yes, one hundred and f i f t y . That's a l l they were allowed to s e l l per day. I t (strike) went on for a week, a l i t t l e over a week maybe. I don't know what would have happened i f we fished r i g h t through. During the s t r i k e m i l l i o n s and m i l l i o n s of f i s h went through, you know. When i t was open, h e l l , we just throw out seventy, eighty fathoms (of net) . We'd ju s t throw i t out and pick i t r i g h t up again. We had f i v e hundred I think the f i r s t set with a short net. We went to the cannery, they took only one hundred and f i f t y . We threw away the r e s t . You couldn't hold i t t i l l the next day because i t was too warm — they get so f t , threw i t a l l away. The next day we played i t smart. We outsmarted our- selves I guess. The buyer came around and was paying 5C apiece f o r them. Tommy Cole had about three hundred over the l i m i t , he got 5<= apiece for them. Big deal! $15 for three hundred f i s h ! Question: That was a l o c a l f i s h dealer? Yes, he came from Vancouver I guess. He (Tommy Cole) was glad to get r i d of i t instead of throwing i t away. You get nothing for i t when you throw i t away. That was a long way back, you know — 1913. I t was mostly sailboats — hardly any gas boats, two cycle boats. No mufflers on them, you could hear the damn things bang away for miles. Question: Was there two men on every boat? Oh yes, s a i l boats you know. One guy would be p u l l i n g with the oars and the other guy would be throwing the net out i n the stern, you know. You had to heave i t out. I used to have a heck of a time the f i r s t time I went out with my granduncle. Sometimes you put up the s a i l a l i t t l e b i t when you get a f a i r wind when you're throwing out. Let the net out and steer with an oar. You got a r o l l e r i n the stern, you know and i t r o l l s r i g h t out. That's what I did when I was f i s h i n g alone i n 1916. My cousin John fished with me for awhile. F i s h was so poor he got disgusted and q u i t . He 38 stayed with me about three weeks. We weren't making no money. $150 for a net, and getting 15* a sockeye. I think I got about two hundred sockeyes a l l season. That's a l o t better than some of the guys did, you know. That's about a l l I could t e l l you for now unless you want to pay me more. Question: Could you t e l l me about working when you l i v e d at Chilliwack? LIVING AT CHILLIWACK - Cutting Pulpwood I forgot what we were getting. You cut cottonwood i n l i t t l e better than cordwood length. I was c u t t i n g with her (Rose) r e l a t i o n s . Three of them worked together. I think we were getting $2 a cord for pulpwood, you know. You gotta peel i t , s p l i t i t and p i l e i t . F i r s t of a l l you f a l l the tree and cut i t up into the r i g h t lengths. That's why we only do two - three cords a day. You get a bad day you hardly do anything. Some of the wood i s tough, twisted — you can't s p l i t i t . I used to do that almost every winter when the camps close down. Sometimes we got to lay o f f from that too, i t gets so cold. You can't s p l i t the wood, i t freezes. Lots of sap i n pulpwood. It's wet wood, you know. When I q u i t I started as a truck swamper working with a guy hauling pulpwood a l l over the place. We'd load i t a l l , unload i t . He bought a l l the pulpwood people here were cutting. Five - s i x cords a load we were hauling i n a big truck, t r a i l e r truck I guess i t was. Load i t onto box cars or open cars you know — that's hard work. I'd do that f o r a few years when the camps close. That's when there's a hard freeze up i n the winter you know, we j u s t p i l e the logs up on the bank. When they get so much they just close everything down. Then I'd go and cut. Oh, I did a l o t of trapping up there too, you know. When we f i r s t moved up there I did well trapping up there. Nobody hardly trapped up there. I sort of started them o f f I guess. I trapped as soon as I got up there, the f i r s t winter we were up there. I didn't know how to skin those things, she (Rose S.) d i d a l l that work. I just bring home the muskrat and she did i t a l l for me. I did well there, we made a good l i v i n g there while we were there. Better than staying home here. Worked r i g h t through and trapped. Question: Was i t harder to f i n d work down here? (Vancouver - Musqueam)? Yes, unless you were a logger. And then you gotta walk, you know. There was a logging camp about 28th, 29th 39 Avenue there I guess. You gotta get up there, you gotta go to work about 7:00 pretty near a l l over. There was a logging camp at 51st Avenue, way up past where Magee High School i s . now. There was a m i l l there and logging camp, you„know. It ' s so f a r to walk. There was no roads, just t r a i l s you know. There was just one road going to New Westminster. You can't even r i d e a bike on a rough road l i k e that. The buggies, every time they h i t a rock, i t would bounce r i g h t over; wagons same thing. No paved roads then. Year a f t e r year a f t e r (during) the f o r t i e s , you know I fished i n the summer months and cut wood. If I didn't do good I cut wood ju s t about a l l winter, and trapped. Made a home and went trapping. I forgot, when Ronny came out of school we trapped together. We'd go to Sea Island, Lulu Island early i n the morning before daybreak, go around with a f l a s h l i g h t looking at our traps. Sometimes we'd do good, other times nothing. Make $10 - $15 a day. Then when we'd get home I'd go cut cordwood. She (Rose) did a l l the skinning. Sometimes we'd get f i f t e e n - twenty a morning we were only getting a d o l l a r apiece, you know. You gotta dry i t and take a l l the f a t o f f . You get an average of a d o l l a r apiece I guess at that time. Later on i t came to about $3.50 apiece. When Willard f i r s t came out of school we made ju s t about $1,000 by Christmas one year. Nothing but trapping. There were a l o t of rats that year too. One day we had forty-two muskrats. We went to Lulu Island, Sea Island. I had just about three hundred traps altogether, you know. We l a i d them out before the season opened, just s t i c k them out. Then when the season opened, you go through the l i n e and open the traps out. Kept doing that year aft e r year. As I get older....as my children grew up I made headway, you know. I never bothered about cutting wood or trapping no more. Just stayed with f i s h i n g t i l l November and I q u i t , lay around a l l winter j u s t about. But when they were growing up I couldn't lay around otherwise we'd have a h e l l of a time. We did everything to l i v e . I even worked i n a Chinese garden for 20* an hour weeding and hoeing. Right up u n t i l the time I q u i t (fishing) a couple of years ago, I just took i t easy though. Summer months and f a l l , q u i t . I never worked i n winter no more. I gotta take i t easy because I want to l i v e t i l l I'm 1021 Question: Did you have your own boat most of time while you were fishing? Oh, yes. After I got my f i r s t boat paid o f f i t was easier f o r me. When you're s t a r t i n g o f f you have a heck of a time. E s p e c i a l l y with a family you have to pay so much out of your earnings every year. You have a contract - $500 - $600 a year, whatever i t takes. That was hard to make at times. F i s h was so cheap. My f i r s t boat I had to pay $500 40 a year. I was lucky to make $1,000 you know. Pish wasn't that p l e n t i f u l the way i t i s now. After the s l i d e i n Hell's Gate i n 1913, they j u s t went down to nothing. The only place where... i t even happened to be poor up north on the Skeena River. We never made nothing, the Fraser was so poor. I t was 1930 when i t started to pick up, change. The s t a r t of Adams run was 1930. You know i t was a kind of surpr i s i n g season. Got a l o t of f i s h , but 30* apiece — you couldn't make money out of that, you had to get so many f i s h . That was the s t a r t . Things started to change, b u i l d up a f t e r they cleared Hell^sGate, you know. The f i s h started to come back. They made ladders and everything — i t got narrower a f t e r the s l i d e you know. I don't know which one of the r a i l r o a d companies was bl a s t i n g there; they never t o l d they blocked the r i v e r up and the f i s h can't get by. From 1913 they kept dying o f f , dying o f f . Nobody knew what was going on u n t i l an American Surveyor went walking around there and happened to see i t . The two countries met and agreed to help one another with the expense to clear i t providing they divide up the salmon. That's how the Americans get half of the salmon as they were coming i n from then on. I t started to b u i l d up. Well during the war we were li m i t e d to f i s h i n g days. They did gradually bring them back that way. Some- times we only f i s h one - two days a week. I t ' s been that way as f a r as I remember from, I guess 1940 or '42 when they started that you know. The Adams run came back i n a hurry but the other runs were almost wiped out. Stelakwo, Fraser Lake and others. According to records some of them had only twenty - t h i r t y sockeye return to spawn. The fishermen were making nothing. We didn't get f i s h i n g days while they were bu i l d i n g up days. The most we got was three days a l l that time. I t ' s s t i l l that way — they're s t i l l l i m i t i n g f i s h i n g days. Worse than ever now, I guess, because there's so many fishermen. Question: I guess i t was pretty d i f f i c u l t to move around up and down the coast? Nobody ever thought of doing that u n t i l they got faster boats. We used to go up i n gas boats year a f t e r year from 1928 when I bought my boat u n t i l 1942 when I q u i t going to Skeena River. Move my family up there on the boat. When Ronny went up there, he started 1942 I guess when he got his boat. He was just going on sixteen when he f i r s t started o f f you know. He was one of the lucky ones. He paid o f f h i s boat the f i r s t year he got i t . I think he bought i t for $1,500, something l i k e that. He paid i t o f f , paid me back what I put down fo r him. I gave him a good t a l k i n g to when he got that boat — no f o o l i n g around. Somebody had to ta l k to him. He thought I was being tough but l a t e r on he 41 r e a l i z e d I was r i g h t , you had to work. I f you didn't work you§d never make nothing you know. Lots of them guys here got boats, and easy come easy go back I guess. They l o s t t h e i r boats. They'd go out for a l i t t l e while, come back i n . A l l my family worked pretty hard to get what they got now. They never f o o l around l i k e other guys you know. Go there and f i s h p u l l into shore, s t a r t drinking f o o l i n g around. That's the way i t ended f o r a l o t of these guys. They l o s t t h e i r boats and everything. Question: Did the companies take t h e i r boats back? Oh yes. They didn't pay f o r them. They didn't show any f i s h i n the f i s h book. Then there's something going on, you're s e l l i n g or something. Pretty near a l l these guys who were younger than I am had boats around here, you know. They a l l l o s t i t for not taking care of themselves, not working. Question: What companies did you f i s h for over the years? B. C. Packers mostly. I was f i s h i n g Terra Nova or the B. C. Packers. In 1924 I fished Oceanic - that was B. C. Packers. 1925 I moved to Claxton - i t was s t i l l under Wallace. Wallace Canning Co. I think i t was 1929 when they amalgamated with B. C. Packers. It's quite a story about going up and down the coast with gas boats you know. Sometimes we were stranded for two - three days i n one spot when i t ' s blowing. Other times we have i t good, no wind r i g h t through. One time we were going up with the whole family. We got caught i n Johnstone Straight; we were there for three days. Crossed over. After we got going we went to C h r i s t i e Pass to cross the Sound. We got across and another big storm came. We stayed the other side of Namu for two or three days I guess. We had a tent i n the stern of the boat for the kids to sleep. » I t was quite rough. We had to do i t . That's the only way we were getting any money at a l l was f i s h i n g up north. Question: Do you remember the names of the boats you had? The f i r s t one I had was Seabird. The next one was Seabird I I , before the t h i r d boat I had was Seabird I I I . The l a s t boat I got, I had i t for about twenty years. I r e b u i l t that thing. I t was A r c t i c Prince — that's the l a s t boat I had. I quit a f t e r that. I had to r e b u i l d i t . I t cost me about $4,000 - $5,000 to re b u i l d i t ; i t ' s good as new. I made kind of a f o o l i s h move there, I sold i t so cheap you know. I shouldn't have qu i t to s t a r t with because the prices of licenses and boats have gone sky high a f t e r I sold mine. 42 Question; When did you s e l l that boat? Was that on the government buy-back? In 1972, Roy's boy, Wilfred Wilson bought i t . He kept a f t e r me, a f t e r me. I didn't want to s e l l i t to him. Well, I was only kidding when I t o l d him i t would be $7,000 - $8,000. Right away they got me, and I hated to go back on i t . I knew i t was too cheap. I hated to go back on the p r i c e . I should have got $10,000 - $12,000 for that boat you know. Anyway, I don't mind. I t don't even bother me now. I don't even think about f i s h i n g no more. A l o t of guys l i k e to go back to i t . I f I ever get a boat I'd be f i s h i n g for my own s e l f . I don't want to work hard anymore. Question; Could you t e l l me when you bought your boats? 1928, i n B-arch when I bought the f i r s t one. Then I had that f o r ten years. Be '38 or '30 when I sold i t . I must have had i t for twenty years. 1942 I sold i t for $480. I only paid $1,170, $1,180 for i t , new. Things were so cheap. Then I bought Seabird II I guess r i g h t a f t e r I sold that, bought i t i n 1943 i n the spring. That cost me money, over $5,000 for that one. A bigger boat, but I didn't l i k e i t . I only kept i t for two - three years, and sold i t . I bought a l i t t l e one during the war days. I think i t was the second year of the war. I was lucky, I got that one f o r $1,100. Boats were coming up i n p r i c e then. I got that one f o r $1,100. I fished that one f o r quite a long time u n t i l about 1952. I sold thatjsarae boat for $3,500. That's when the Japanese started to come back. In 1953 I got the new one, b u i l t . That cost me $5,500, $6,000. I can't r e c a l l exactly what I paid for that one. Close to $6,000 by the time I got through. I t wasn't too big, just the way I wanted i t . I didn't l i k e the great big boats. Mostly r i v e r f i s h i n g . . . I d i d. I kept that u n t i l I q u i t i n '72. I got i t r e b u i l t about three - four years before I q u i t . I t was about 32' long, 8' beam. Question; Did you l e t anyone else f i s h your boats? No. I t r i e d i t one year, t r i e d my grandsons but I never made no money out of i t , I go i n the hole. I worked i n the (Musqueam Band) O f f i c e then as business manager and I l e t Brian run i t for me. I went i n the hole so I quit the business manager and went f i s h i n g again. I didn't intend to q u i t but the way things were going with my boat I had to. I was j u s t losing money. I t was costing too much to keep the gear up. We were only getting $1,100 a year i n the o f f i c e then. That was not enough you know I went back to 43 f i s h i n g . I could make more at that, sometimes make i t i n one night. I went back (to fishing) again u n t i l I r e t i r e d . That's 1972 when I qui t . I haven't been on a gas boat since. 44 T h e s e t a p e s r e v e a l t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f k i n s h i p t i e s i n w o r k and l i f e . T h e p r i n c i p l e s o f l e a r n i n g w o r k and g a i n i n g e x p e r i e n c e w e r e r e i n f o r c e d . Some r e a s o n s f o r t a k i n g c e r t a i n j o b s o r f o r c h a n g i n g j o b s — money, w o r k i n g c o n d i t i o n s , b e t t e r j o b , o r c o n v e n i e n c e — h a v e b e e n r e l a t e d b y G r a n d f a t h e r . He h a s s u m m a r i z e d h i s s c h o o l y e a r s , l e a r n i n g t o w o r k , t e a c h i n g c h i l d r e n s e l f - s u p p o r t a n d r e s p o n s i b i l i t y ; h e h a s m e n t i o n e d k i n s h i p r e l a t i o n s a n d f a m i l y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y a s s o c i a t e d w i t h h i s own l i f e . He p l a c e s p a r t s o f h i s w o r k h i s t o r y i n s e q u e n c e s g i v i n g p e r s o n a l i m p r e s s i o n s a n d e v a l u a t i o n s o f j o b s . M o b i l i t y w i t h i n t h e l a b o r f o r c e and w i t h i n g e o g r a p h i c a r e a s h a s b e e n i n t r o d u c e d . An i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e t o n o t e i s s e l f e v a l u - a t i o n s made b y G r a n d f a t h e r . He h a s m e n t i o n e d h i s c a p a c i t i e s , j o b e x p e c t a t i o n s , e x p e r i e n c e s , m o t i v a t i o n s a n d a d v a n c e s o r p r o g r e s s i o n s i n h i s j o b s . H i s p r e s e n t a t i o n i n d i c a t e s s e l f c o n f i d e n c e a n d m o t i v a t i o n . I n a d d i t i o n t o t h e s e p e r s o n a l e v e n t s , h e h a s c o n t r i b u t e d f a c t s on l o c a l h i s t o r y a n d d e v e l o p m e n t . F r o m t h e d a t a s o f a r , a p o s s i b l e y e a r ' s w o r k c y c l e c a n be o u t l i n e d : s p r i n g — g a r d e n o c c a s i o n a l l y l o g g i n g f i s h i n g summer — f i s h i n g o r l o g g i n g c a n n e r y w o r k i n e a r l y y e a r s f a l l — f i s h i n g l o g g i n g h op p i c k i n g , c h i l d t o e a r l y m a r r i e d y e a r s c u t wood some y e a r s w i n t e r — t r a p p i n g l o g g i n g — v a r i e t y o f j o b s h e r e c u t , h a u l wood. F o l l o w i n g h i s j o b o u t l i n e , l o c a t i o n s , e a r n i n g s , m o b i l i t y , e t c . c o u l d be d e t e r m i n e d more e a s i l y a n d a c c u r a t e l y . I n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e t a p e i s a l l i n t e r - r e l a t e d , a n d e x a m i n i n g s e p a r a t e s e c t i o n s o f t h e t a p e c o u l d d i s t o r t i n f o r m a t i o n , l e a d i n g t o m i s r e p r e s e n t a t i o n o f G r a n d f a t h e r ' s l i f e . I n t e r v i e w i n g a s e c o n d m a l e i n f o r m a n t was t h e n e x t p h a s e i n t e s t i n g t h e work h i s t o r y a p p r o a c h . T h i s i n f o r m a n t was w i l l i n g and c o o p e r a t i v e i n g i v i n g o f i n f o r m a t i o n . H o w e v e r , he f e l t u n e a s y w i t h a t a p e r e c o r d e r , a n d a s k e d t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n n o t be r e c o r d e d . S i n c e he h a d no a p p r e h e n s i o n s a b o u t i n f o r m a t i o n b e i n g w r i t t e n down, I made n o t e s o f h i s b r i e f b u t i n f o r m a t i v e a c c o u n t . T h e s e n o t e s h a v e n o t b e e n i n c l u d e d i n t h i s d a t a . 46 3.3 Tape 2 4 Ed Sparrow Fe b r u a r y 27, 1975 C o n v e r s a t i o n a f t e r r e c o r d i n g Tape 2 3 c e n t e r e d around p o s s i b l e areas o f t h e work h i s t o r y w h i c h c o u l d be f u r t h e r i n v e s t i g a t e d . G r a n d f a t h e r h i m s e l f f e l t he had s k i p p e d o v e r s e v e r a l a r e a s and l e f t o u t a g r e a t d e a l . He seemed d i s s a t i s f i e d w i t h t h i s i n c o m p l e t e n e s s . A t h i s s u g g e s t i o n , we a r r a n g e d t o r e c o r d a n o t h e r phase o f h i s l i f e w h i c h was i m p o r t a n t t o him, and w h i c h I f e l t was r e l e v a n t t o h i s work h i s t o r y . From 1952 u n t i l 19 72 he was i n v o l v e d w i t h o r g a n i z a t i o n and a d m i n i s t r a t i o n of the N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d o f B. C. 4 No mention -of t h i s phase o f h i s l i f e has been made i n t h e e a r l i e r r e c o r d i n g . I was aware o f h i s a s s o c i a t i o n w i t h t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d , b u t n o t i n f o r m e d o f t h e e x t e n t o f h i s i n v o l v e m e n t . He was w e l l p r e p a r e d f o r t h i s i n t e r v i e w . He had no n o t e s , r e l y i n g c o m p l e t e l y on r e c a l l , b u t no q u e s t i o n i n g was r e q u i r e d t o prompt t h e b e g i n n i n g . I s i m p l y a d v i s e d G r a n d f a t h e r t o t e l l about h i s i n v o l v e m e n t w i t h t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d . ^ R e f e r t o : D r u c k e r , P., The N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d s : Modern I n t e r t r i b a l O r g a n i z a t i o n on t h e N orthwest C o a s t . B u l l e t i n o f t h e Bureau o f American E t h n o l o g y , No. 16 8, S m i t h s o n i a n I n s t i t u t e , Washington, 1958. Kopas, L e s l i e , P o l i t i c a l A c t i o n o f t h e I n d i a n s o f B r i t i s h C o l u m b i a , M. A. T h e s i s , U n i v e r s i t y o f B r i t i s h C o l u m b i a , Vancouver, B. C. 1972. G l a d s t o n e , P. N a t i v e I n d i a n s and t h e F i s h i n g I n d u s t r y o f B. C. Canadian J o u r n a l o f Economics and P o l i t i c a l S c i e n c e . J a m i e s o n , S. and P. G l a d s t o n e , U n i o n i s m i n t h e F i s h i n g I n d u s t r y o f B r i t i s h Columbia. Canadian J o u r n a l o f Economics and P o l i t i c a l S c i e n c e . V o l . 16, No" 1, pp. 1-11, No. 2, pp. 146-171. 47 Q u e s t i o n s a s k e d w e r e g e n e r a l l y t o c l a r i f y p o i n t s b r o u g h t up b y G r a n d f a t h e r . O t h e r q u e s t i o n s p r o m p t e d h i m t o e n l a r g e on d e t a i l s r e l a t i n g t o t h e o p e r a t i o n o f t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d , o r t o show how t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d b e n e f i t e d N a t i v e f i s h e r m e n . R e c o l l e c t i o n s e v e n t u a l l y b r o u g h t e d u c a t i o n i n t o h i s c o n s i d e r a t i o n s . F rom h e r e , h i s own e d u c a t i o n a n d t r a i n i n g became i m p o r t a n t , o p e n i n g a new l i n e f o r i n v e s t i g a t i o n . 48 Tape 24 Recorded: February 27, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrow, Sr. WORK HISTORY — NATIVE BROTHERHOOD It was 1952 or 53 when I f i r s t took i n the Native Brotherhood. For a while I didn't believe i n them, you know. I was a member of the Fisherman's Protective Association from the time I started f i s h i n g u n t i l 1952 or 53. Then I joined the Native Brotherhood. For awhile they didn't want to have anything to do with the Southern people. In 1930 they had a big s t r i k e up Skeena and they wouldn't recognize us, you know, wouldn't c a l l us to t h e i r meetings and one thing and another. That's the reason why I didn't want to have anything to do with them. Then I started organizing i n 1953. They were broke, we had to get some money somewhere. I started signing a whole bunch of guys from Canoe Pass. I got quite a few from here. Pretty near a l l the fishermen that were heie I guess joined up. Then I went upriver and got them guys a l l signed up up there — Katzie, some from Langley. I went across to Chemainus and signed them up, Kuper Island. I f i t wasn't for that I think the Native Brotherhood would have wemt on the skids. We were broke, nothing at a l l . There were just Northern members, and I don't think they were able to keep up t h e i r organization with t h e i r fees. I t was only $3.50. You can't do business with seven - eight hundred members and hold o f f at the same time, you know, at $3.50. We had a meeting a f t e r and I t o l d them you guys should rai s e your bloody fees otherwise y o u ' l l go f l a t again- Next time you go f l a t , I said, I ' l l never give you one penny. So they raised the fees the following year to $10, I think i t was. That s t i l l wasn't enough but they were scared to take too much of a jump you know. Maybe the members would q u i t and j o i n the Protective Association again. Then the Union was just s t a r t i n g then i n 1944 you know. Nobody was jo i n i n g them. Pretty near a l l (natives?) belonged to the Protective Association but when the Union formed i t was a very weak thing you know. They amalgamated with the Protective Association. There was a l o t of crooked things going on, you know. They didn't know where the bloody fees were going, so they l o s t a l o t of members. From there on I stayed with them. I had a pretty hard 49 time with them. There was no representatives down here, you know. We kept up with the organization I think, Nahanee (Squamish Band )and a few other guys here. We didn't seem to be getting no help from the Northern group. Anyways 1953, '54 we b u i l t r i g h t up so we had about the same amount of members as the Union had. We had them on the run for a while. They ... only thing, that organization couldn't get a charter because i t was an association. I t wasn't under a labour code. They weren't recognized. That was the reason why the Union started to form. They joined the labor congress and they came up stronger than the Native Brotherhood. And they were kicked out again from there i n about one or two years because they were communists. And our organization b u i l t up. We had a l o t of associate members from there on. Then, t h i s went on. I was tr y i n g to get them to change t h e i r constitution read, you know. They wouldn't do i t . They said they were scared of the government. For what, I don't know. I can't figure i t out. I was t r y i n g to t e l l them there was nothing to be scared of. But no, they wouldn't l i s t e n to me. Anyway I stayed up and worked my head o f f s t r i k e a f t e r s t r i k e . And a l o t of times I'd never get home t i l l two or three o'clock i n the morning from the meetings i n town. In 1961 or 62 we had a long s t r i k e . That's on the Fraser, you know, I qui t going up North by now. We l o s t quite a few members that time. Some of our people started s e l l i n g f i s h on the s l y . They were breaking the rules of the s t r i k e . They were to be fined and they didn't want to pay the fi n e ; they q u i t the organization. There's nothing much d i f f e r e n t from there on. Just s t r i k e s . I t went pretty smooth. Oh, I forgot to mention i n the early '40's we got welfare for our fishermen j o i n t l y with the Union. This had money b u i l t up, you know. The companies were paying so much a case into the fund. That's how that welfare was b u i l t up. There was three d i f f e r e n t p a r t i e s : Vessel Owners, Native Brotherhood, and the Union negotiated j o i n t l y to get t h i s fund started. I t took us about three years before the companies f i n a l l y agreed to i t . Then i t started to b u i l d up. Last I've known of that fund i t was about a m i l l i o n and a h a l f . This was about two years ago. The Union got control of i t ; they invested that money. Now a l l fishermen, with any one of the three organizations get sick benefit or funeral benefit. I think the widow would get $3,700 - 3,800 now. Ho s p i t a l i z a t i o n , I think you get $7.50 a day; something l i k e a present, I guess. They allow you that much whether i t ' s i n season or i n winter. I used i t l a s t spring when I was i n h o s p i t a l . I got $87 — that's the f i r s t time I ever benefited with that. They gave me $7 a day. 50 I think i t ' s a good thing; you know a l o t of people don't give us c r e d i t for that. But we worked hard to get i t . There was meeting aft e r meeting. The companies didn't want to have nothing to do with i t for a while. If they give i n to the organization, i t ' s l i k e a chopping block for us, you know. We can p r a c t i c a l l y get whatever we demand from there on and they didn't want that, you know. They kept opposing i t a l l the time. I t ' s building up r i g h t along. I don't know how they're going to make out pretty soon. They've got to st a r t using that money pretty soon otherwise the companies are going to balk. They won't pay into the fund when the time comes. I f we don't use that money, i t doesn't do no good there. You got to star t giving the members more money I think. I mean give them better benefit. That accumulates from year to year, you know, and what good i s i t going to do you i f you got two or three m i l l i o n d o l l a r s there and you can't use i t . I f you don't use i t I mean, I think they wouldn't have no problem with membership i f they went to work and increased the value of benefit. That's what I was aft e r a l l the time I was there, you know, increase the benefits. I don't know r e a l l y what the benefit i s now but when I was there, when I q u i t . I was a member of the Board of Trustees from 1952 u n t i l a couple of years ago. I was the oldest member of the board. We were supposed to have two or three there but we couldn't get nobody to go i n , to take i n t e r e s t i n the welfare. Question: Were you elected to the board? Yeah, I represented the Native Brotherhood. Vessel owners had two members, two (from the) Board of Trustees, Brotherhood had two or three. The Union e l e c t t h e i r s every convention. I was there, nobody else would take my place, so I was there from '52 u n t i l '72. Well, we got paid for our time, time l o s t and one thing and another. When we c a l l e d for a meeting, they take i t o f f t h e i r fund they got there, you know. I don't know where the h e l l from, i t wasn't enough though. I was interested i n t r y i n g to b u i l d up the organi- zation. Question: Do you remember any of the people who worked with you i n the Native Brotherhood? When I f i r s t joined there Ed Nahanee was our business manager. Andy Paull was president and treasurer, I think, and Dan Asu. That's about '52, '53, you know. Something went wrong there. That's the reason why they went broke. Later on, William Scow was elected president, and Nahanee stayed with him as business manager. I agreed with him, William, he didn't want me to qui t . He couldn't get nobody else to give him a hand. But since then a l o t of people have 51 moved down from North. You got a l l Northern group working down here again. Cap Mudge, and there's some A l e r t Bay people l i v i n g i n town and they're members of the Executive Board, I guess. There's a l o t of people here they wanted to take an in t e r e s t i n i t . They wanted Lyle (Sparrow) and Eddy (Sparrow, Jr.) to go int o i t . They wanted to t r a i n Eddy to be an executive but he won't go. He started and qui t . Then l a t e r on when William r e t i r e d — well, he didn't r e t i r e , he was outvoted by Bob C l i f t o n , I think. He went on for years and I can't r e c a l l exactly what year, you know. But they were getting on to the early '60's then. Then , was elected to business manager and treasurer, secretary — three jobs. That's when we went to pieces. He had f u l l control of everything, you know. Nobody ever knows what happened to the money that was there. We couldn't dig up nothing. And there was a s t r i k e on. I can't r e c a l l what year. 1962 or '63. I was busy over there looking a f t e r food f i s h i n g i n Steveston. Every time I c a l l e d t h e i r o f f i c e , you know, I couldn't get no answer. I couldn't leave because I was working. F i n a l l y Homer (Stevens) got hold of me one evening. He t o l d me to go i n the next day, f i n d out what the h e l l was going on because nobody was i n the o f f i c e . So I went. I went d i r e c t l y to the meeting then about 11:00 I excused myself. I went up to the o f f i c e ; i t was locked, I couldn't get i n . So I decided to go look for him, young I went down a couple of blocks, who did I see. I gave him h e l l , I don't think i t sunk, but anyway he rushed o f f to the o f f i c e . He was two months rent behind for the o f f i c e ; no l i g h t s , no phone. I paid for i t . We canned him shortly a f t e r that and Nahanee came back. We b u i l t up the organization from scratch again. We formed a l o c a l i n Ladner with the Wilsons, and a few whites joined. They had about thirty-two members or so over there. I t went on pretty good for four or fi v e years, I guess, i n Ladner. Again, somebody was squandering our money. You can't prove who was doing i t . They wouldn't l e t us look in t o the books. Although we could have. Seeing as we were the senior members we demand anything we wanted. We were executive members you know. But we didn't want to get anybody i n trouble so we dropped i t . They didn't l i k e i t , I guess, They qu i t when they didn't know what was going on. They a l l joined the Union over there from that time on. We only got a few members l e f t over there. That's the o l d members you know. I guess there's only four l e f t from the old members — Johnny Wilson and Wally (Wilson). Roy 52 (Wilson) I think he qu i t , a member of the Union now. My own group, you know — Ronny, Lyle, my own family, and a few from here stayed with us. The reason they got weak here i s the Indians got weeded out of the f i s h i n g industry. They weren't producing. The Japanese came back and they took over. I t ' s building r i g h t up again, so I hear. I haven't been i n the o f f i c e to check for a long time — about a year, I guess. They b u i l t r i g h t up because there's a l o t of Northern members l i v i n g r i g h t here i n town and Steveston, a l l over there. They got a l o c a l . You've got to have twenty-two members to form a l o c a l . They've got a l o c a l i n Vancouver and they want to form one i n Steveston now. I guess they've got quite a few members down there. I never heard no more. They wanted me to go to a meeting a couple of weeks ago. But no notice, they wanted me to go i n exactly an hour or two from when the meeting started you know. I didn't want to go so I didn't attend. I think young Ronny went i n to the meeting. He wasn't quite s a t i s f i e d with what happened. They wanted non-herring fishermen to vote, which i s n ' t r i g h t . I t should be only herring fishermen c a l l e d (to vote for herring f i s h i n g L.S.). Yet they wanted a general meeting. They vote to check the o f f e r , I guess i t was. That's how i t i s r i g h t up to now, they (herring fishermen L.S.) are s t i l l on s t r i k e . That's about a l l I can tell°you about i t now. Question: You've been involved with the Native Brotherhood pretty well since i t s beginning'around here? No, they started i n the early '30's, I guess, pro- bably e a r l i e r . I got into i t about 1950, '53. Question: And you've maintained a contact a l l the way through from there? Yes, I stayed r i g h t from that time on. I did a l o t of work for them. One thing I don't l i k e about them. They make you an honorary member, then you s t i l l gotta pay your fees. I haven't been able to get i n touch with them guys you know. Based on the constitution of the unions, honorary members, I think i t ' s a $5 fee for honorary members, i n order to benefit from that welfare. We're only supposed to be paying $3.50 just for that same purpose. That's to get benefit from that welfare. Now they've raised i t to $5, and you've also got to take out the Native Voice. I t ' s $10 a year for the Native Voice. Well, I don't believe i n that. An honorary member should get the thing for free. He shouldn't have to be paying, because he's r e t i r e d , he's got no income anymore, you know. I can't see me or a l l the 53 r e t i r e d members paying p r a c t i c a l l y $15. You gotta p a y $5 f o r your bloody membership fee and $10 for the paper. They're d i c t a t i n g to you that way,; .• Question: Were you on the trustee committee most of the time you were with the Native Brotherhood? Yes, r i g h t from the time I joined the Native organization/Native Brotherhood organization. In the f a l l , when a l l f l e e t s come i n we have a meeting. Sometimes i n November. Then, oh about a couple of weeks before Christmas ju s t so we could help a l l those that are i n need, or that l o s t someone i n the family. We gotta get them a l l straightened* out before Christmas. Then we meet again i n January, once or twice i n that month. In February we meet about three times when they're preparing reports for conventions you know. You gotta report to conventions, the Union and the other organi- zations how much money you've got l e f t and how much you've spent, and so on, you know. That's a l l down on the book. I was signing cheques, I was a trustee for about ten years I guess. There was four or f i v e of us doing that r i g h t along. Just the Secretary of the organization he's i n , and they select from the board to sign cheques. There's got to be two co-signers a l l the time or the cheques are no good. Question: Where dii you have your various conventions? Oh, sometimes i n Cape Mudge, we had a couple i n Vancouver, one convention i n V i c t o r i a , about three or four i n Prince Rupert i n my time and, uh, two or three i n Prince George. Then I can't r e c a l l the reserve across Millbank Sound — we had one convention there. Kind of an i s o l a t e d place, we had a hard time getting i n there. We had to go by boat from Port Hardy. Question: Did the Northern and Southern parts of the Native Brotherhood get together f i n a l l y ? Yes, do you mean amalgamated or work together? You had to work together because yoii^re a member of the same group, you know. I represented the southern group most of the time from the time I joined. Whenever there's business to be taken care of down here. Our o f f i c e i s downtown — i t was easy for me to go. Nahanee was there or I'd get i n touch with him by phone. Then you'd arrange a meeting maybe a week or two aft e r that, and we'd take up the grievances of the members, whatever i t i s . Question: Does the Native Brotherhood have control over food fishing? Dh yes, each organization has t h e i r own. Union 54 (UPAWU) t r i e d to control i t , but i n 1953 I said we don't want to be under anybody. We're going to do our own food f i s h i n g . So we started. I went out ju s t to t e s t them, you know, see what they're going to do. They threatened to saddle my net you know — that's put weight on each end. I said you guys do that — t h i s was i n a meeting — you're asking for trouble. You're i n t e r f e r i n g with private property, you can't do that I says to them. You know they said they could, they w i l l . That's the members; t h i s i s a general meeting with the three organizations. I t o l d I'm going out tomorrow. You guys sink that and I ' l l give you trouble. So I went out the next day. They came around me. I says, you guys keep away from there. I had two, three guys with me. You touch that net I ' l l b l a s t you, I said. I was ju s t kidding them you know. I didn't have my gun, I was just f o o l i n g them. They were c i r c l i n g around us. The next day they c a l l e d us and they s t i l l wanted to control. I said no, we're going to do our own food f i s h i n g . We sold f i s h j u st to help the s t r i k e r s you know. We made quite a few d o l l a r s that way. I t a l l went to the members. I t was quite a long s t r i k e the f i r s t one we had. We give them money to buy grub you know, that's the members, out of the sale of the salmon. We gave Union members salmon too when they came around; we weren't stingy l i k e them. F i n a l l y we agreed to work together on the food f i s h i n g . I was one of the guys looking a f t e r the s t r i k e i n '63. That's the reason why I couldn't get into the o f f i c e when was there, you know. You had to be there a l l the time because there were people buying salmon. They were s e l l i n g i t for r e l i e f purposes. We had to keep track of money coming i n , things l i k e that, the members get kind of goofy, you know. You've got to be there because they were drinking and everything e l s e . They didn't know what the h e l l was going on there, giving f i s h away. I don't know, some fishermen got paid twice. They were allowing so much a ton, some guys got paid twice. You had to be there to look aft e r them, that's the reason why I couldn't leave. Question; Was there a r e s t r i c t i o n on the amount of f i s h each fisherman could bring in? Yes, I think we were allowed two hundred for each fisherman. You only got about $70, $80 out of that, you know, for your time. That's supposed to be volunteer work, but i t ' s for repairing your gear and expenses. That's the reason why they give them so much. They were w i l l i n g to do i t . Later on they got paid by the piece. Some guys made $200 a day. They could a l l go out one day, then somebody else go out. They made b i g money. The Union, they divided up what money was over a f t e r I guess what you c a l l r e l i e f . They gave money to buy 55 g r o c e r i e s y o u know. We d i v i d e d i t up a m o n g s t t h e t h r e e o r g a n i z a t i o n s a f t e r t h e s t r i k e was o v e r . I t was s m a l l b e n e f i t f o r t h e t i m e y o u l o s t . A f i s h e r m e n ' s s t r i k e , I c a n ' t s e e them h o l d i n g o u t t o o l o n g y o u know. O t h e r i n d u s t r i e s w i l l go i n t o s t r i k e b u t t h e y d o n ' t — t h e y l o s e t h e i r wage, y e s , b u t t h e y c a n a l w a y s go b a c k t o w o r k . B u t when f i s h e r m e n go o n s t r i k e , y o u p r a c t i c a l l y l o s e a s e a s o n . Y o u c a n ' t s t o p t h e f i s h f r o m g o i n g up r i v e r . I d o n ' t b e l i e v e i n l o n g s t r i k e s m y s e l f , b u t maybe i t d o n e t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n some g o o d . The c o m p a n i e s , f o r a w h i l e t h e y p r a c t i c a l l y a g r e e d t o a n y t h i n g y o u ' d demand. B u t I t h i n k we've o v e r d o n e o u r t h i n g s m y s e l f r i g h t now y o u know, o v e r p r i c e d o u r s a l m o n . W h e t h e r we d i d o r n o t . B u t t h e b l o o d y g e a r i s so h i g h t o o , y o u know, k i n d o f e v e n t h i n g s o u t a g a i n . I t h i n k w h e r e t h e money i s made i s s e n i o r c o m p a n i e s . T h e y c o n t r o l i t a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e y m u s t make money, much more money t h a n t h e y l e t o n y o u know. T h e y w e r e b l a m i n g w h o l e s a l e r s , b u t I d o n ' t s e e no w h o l e s a l e , no m i d d l e g u y s h a n d l i n g f i s h . W h o l e s a l e , t h e y d o n ' t h a n d l e t h a t . I t comes d i r e c t f r o m t h e c a n n e r y t o t h e w a r e h o u s e s . F r o m t h e r e i t g o e s i n t o t h e s t o r e s . We c h e c k e d up o n t h a t y o u know, R i d l e y a n d I c h e c k e d up I d o n ' t know how many t i m e s . T h e n A l e c G o r d o n . T h r e e o r f o u r o f u s t r a v e l l e d a r o u n d t o g e t h e r . E s p e c i a l l y when a s t r i k e i s o n we t r a v e l a r o u n d , go o u t and w a t c h t o s e e w h a t t h e h e l l i s g o i n g o n . We n e e d e d t o o much money f o r i t t h e n . When t h e y q u e s t i o n t h e p r i c e o f s a l m o n i n t h e s t o r e , who g e t s t h e money, who's t h e m i d d l e g u y , t h e y c a n ' t a n s w e r t h a t . I t g o e s d i r e c t f r o m t h e c a n n e r y t o t h e s t o r e y o u know. T h e y ' r e t h e w h o l e s a l e r , t h e y ' r e t h e one t h a t makes t h e money, b u t t h e y d e n y i t a l l t h e t i m e . Same way w i t h f i s h t h e y e x p o r t , r a w f i s h . Q u i t e a b i t o f s a l m o n g o e s t o t h e S t a t e s . I t g o e s d i r e c t t o them g u y s u n l e s s t h e r e ' s w h o l e s a l i n g a c r o s s t h e l i n e . We d o n ' t know, t h a t s o m e t h i n g we d i d n ' t f i n d o u t . T o n s a n d t o n s , e s p e c i a l l y f r o m S e p t e m b e r on y o u know. T h e y d o n ' t s e l l r a w s o c k e y e , w h o l e s o c k e y e t h e y w a n t t o c a l l i t , u n t i l t h e s e a s o n i s o v e r . W e l l , t h e s e a s o n e x p i r e s a r o u n d t h e f i f t e e n t h , t w e n t i e t h o f S e p t e m b e r . T h e n t h e y ' r e a l l o w e d t o s e l l s o c k e y e i f t h e y w a n t e d t o . B u t t h e s o c k e y e a r e k i n d o f o l d t h e n , t h e c a n n e r y d o n ' t w a n t i t anymore t h e n . M o s t o f t h e chums go a c r o s s t h e r e . A f e w w i l l b e s a l t e d f o r t h e J a p a n e s e a n d C h i n e s e y o u know, d r y s a l t . B u t t h e m a j o r i t y o f t h e ehums go a c r o s s ( t o S t a t e s ) . T h a t ' s w h a t t h e y c a l l d o g s a l m o n . T h e y h a v e a d i f f e r e n t name y o u know. Q u e s t i o n ; D i d t h e f i s h i n g c o m p a n i e s c o n t i n u e t o o b j e c t a b o u t f i s h e r m e n b e i n g i n t h e B r o t h e r h o o d ? No, t h e y d o n ' t o b j e c t . T h e y w a n t t o s e e t h e N a t i v e 56 B r o t h e r h o o d i m p r o v e , o r g e t s t r o n g e r , g e t more m e m b e r s h i p . The r e a s o n why we c o u l d o n l y — now we c a n s i g n b r e e d s , n o n - s t a t u s i f y o u w a n t t o c a l l t hem t h a t . A s l o n g a s a member h a s , o h t h r e e - q u a r t e r I n d i a n I g u e s s y o u ' d p u t i t , y o u c a n s i g n h i m . I t ' s i n t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n now. Oh, e v e n o n e - e i g h t h w i t h I n d i a n b l o o d i n y o u , y o u s t i l l c o u l d be a member o f t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d now. I d o n ' t know. I h a v e n ' t s e e n t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n . Maybe t h e y ' r e l y i n g t o me. I ' v e g o t t o s e e i t t o b e l i e v e i t . T h a t ' s w h a t t h e y t o l d me j u s t b e f o r e I q u i t o r g a n i z i n g y o u know. W e l l , t h e y ( N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d ) s o l v e d many I n d i a n p r o b l e m s . They w e r e n ' t o n l y l o o k i n g a f t e r t h e f i s h e r m e n . T h e y h a d o t h e r w o r k t o do b e s i d e s n e g o t i a t i n g f o r t h e i r members a s f i s h e r m e n . T ime and a g a i n t h e y ' v e t a k e n up e s p e c i a l l y f a m i l y a l l o w a n c e s a n d one t h i n g a n d a n o t h e r . I t was t h r o u g h t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d t h a t s t a t u s I n d i a n s g o t t h a t y o u know. We h a d s e n i o r members g o i n g l i k e P e t e r K e l l y a n d Guy W i l l i a m s , Bob C l i f t o n a n d a f e w o t h e r s . T h e y w e n t t o O t t a w a t i m e a nd a g a i n , j u s t t o t r y t o g e t t h e b e n e f i t s f o r o u r p e o p l e . I t ' s t h r o u g h t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n t h a t we g o t t h a t , f a m i l y a l l o w a n c e , o l d age p e n s i o n , w e l f a r e a n d s o o n , y o u know. N o t h i n g t h r o u g h a n y o t h e r o r g a n i z a t i o n . We f o u g h t f o r i t t i m e a n d a g a i n . We e v e n s e n t o u r s e n i o r members t o O t t a w a t o n e g o t i a t e . I t t o o k us a b o u t t e n y e a r s o r so t o g e t t h i s y o u know. To s t a r t w i t h we g o t t h e f a m i l y a l l o w a n c e t o o u r s t a t u s I n d i a n s , r e g a r d l e s s o f w h e t h e r t h e y ' r e members ( o f B r o t h e r h o o d — L . S . ) o r n o t . A l l I n d i a n s g o t i t i n B r i t i s h C o l u m b i a . We w o r k e d o n t h e p e n s i o n . I t t o o k u s l o n g e r t o g e t . We g o t w e l f a r e b e f o r e we g o t o l d age p e n s i o n f o r o u r p e o p l e . I t h i n k i t was a b o u t t w e l v e y e a r s a g o , s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t when we g o t i t f o r o u r p e o p l e . T h e y s a i d we w e r e n o n - s t a t u t o r y , w h i c h i s t r u e , b u t I t ^ i l n k w e ' r e e n t i t l e d t o i t . W e l l , I w o u l d n ' t s a y we w e r e n o n - s t a t u t o r y b e c a u s e we p a i d i n c o m e t a x j u s t l i k e e v e r y b o d y e l s e when we w e r e c o m p e t i n g o u t s i d e t h e r e s e r v e . T h e r e f o r e we s h o u l d be e n t i t l e d t o i t y o u know. I t h i n k t h e m a j o r i t y o f t h e I n d i a n f i s h e r m e n p a i d i n c o m e t a x e s . I f t h e y w o r k e d o u t s i d e i n l o g g i n g camps, y o u w e r e t a x a b l e same a s e v e r y b o d y e l s e . Any w o r k y o u w e n t t o . Y o u ' r e p a y i n g t a x e s o n y o u r c l o t h i n g , h i d d e n t a x e s . C i g a r e t t e s — I t h i n k I made t h e g o v e r n m e n t a l o t o f money when I was s m o k i n g b e c a u s e I was a c h a i n s m o k e r . P e o p l e g a i n e d q u i t e a b i t . F o r a f a c t t h e r e , a l l t h o s e t h i n g s I m e n t i o n e d . I t was t h r o u g h t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d t h e y g o t i t . I t was e f f o r t s o f t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d t h a t b r o u g h t t h i s a b o u t . B e t t e r e d u c a t i o n . Our o r g a n i z a t i o n was t h e one t h a t was a b l e t o g e t o u r c h i l d r e n i n t o p u b l i c s c h o o l s . B e f o r e t h a t , a s u s u a l , a s n o n - t a x p a y e r s t h e y d i d n ' t w a n t t o h a v e n o t h i n g t o do w i t h o u r c h i l d r e n i n p u b l i c s c h o o l s . We k e p t w o r k i n g o n i t . F i n a l l y t h e y t r i e d i t . I t h i n k i t was much b e t t e r f o r o u r p e o p l e anyway, i n s t e a d o f h a v i n g r e s i d e n t i a l s c h o o l s . R e s i d e n t i a l s c h o o l i s a l l r i g h t f o r o r p h a n c h i l d r e n , 57 one thing and another, you know. But children with parents, I think they were much further ahead by going to public schools. Residentials, you've got to work. You only have a few hours school each day and the res t of the day you're working for the school whether i t was Catholic or Protestant. You had to work because t h e i r grants were so small at that time. Not too long ago they increased i t from $92 to $132. That's per capita grant for each c h i l d i n school. I t ' s small you know. We had to work to help along. I mean the children had to work. I did i t i n my time at school. In spring months af t e r I was about twelve, thirteen years o l d I hardly go to school. I worked out on the farm a l l the time plowing, d i s c i n g , harrowing. In the evenings, I used to go up i n the classroom and study, prepare myself for examinations at the end of the year. Question: Most of the day time was spent working on the farm? I did, yes. Quite a few of us did that you know. I did a l l the ploughing, p r a c t i c a l l y , while I was not going to school. Handy with a team, you know. Question: How many years did you spend up at Coqualeetza? 1909 when I went, came out i n 1916. Six years I was there I guess, six and one-half years. I t would have been seven. I went to school i n September, October aft e r hop picking. I had to work. Yes, 1916 when I came out. Question: Who went to school with you, worked with you at school? I can't r e c a l l t h e i r names now, i t ' s so long since I l e f t . There was guys from Masset, Queen Charlotte Islands, Skeena River, Cowichan, West Coast. In my time just my s i s t e r and I were from here I guess. There was a few went up there from here before my time. Local people from there, I'm speaking of Coqualeetza you know, that's up Sardis, Chilliwack — there was quite a few l o c a l people from up there. There was people, children, from a l l over. There was one hundred and t h i r t y or so there then when I was going. They increased i t to over two hundred children a f t e r I l e f t . They extended the building. I got no complaint. At lea s t I learned how to work you know. I didn't get much education but I know how to work. I reached eighth grade i n the short time I was there. I shouldn't have quit, I guess. I thought I was smart, you know! I came out of school on account of my grandmother. She was getting kind of weak. Pretty near everything I made after I was working out I gave to her to keep up the house. Although, I hardly l i v e d at home. I was going from job to job. 58 I forgot to t e l l you I worked i n sawmills too, you know — Vancouver, Sguamish. Anywhere I could get a job i n a m i l l when I can't get i n a camp. Mostly night s h i f t . I used to play lacrosse, and I can't take day work. I was working at night. Start 8:00 af t e r a hard game or something. Quit 7:00 i n the morning. I used to walk up to Kerrisdale and take the tram. There was no street cars running then, you know, when I worked i n town. There's no m i l l s so I had to work at Red Porter's r i g h t i n False Creek. I worked quite a while i n Squamish loading. A l l I d i d was loading cars, r o l l i n g timbers on. I was there about four or f i v e months working the same job. You don't get nothing payday — 25* or 30* an hour. But, you've got to do i t to l i v e , I guess. 59 No ch a n g e i n m e t h o d was i n c o r p o r a t e d h e r e o t h e r t h a n t o r e s t r i c t q u e s t i o n i n g t o a minimum. G r a n d f a t h e r h a d p r e p a r e d h i m s e l f f o r t h i s s e s s i o n , a n d was a b l e t o p r o c e e d o n h i s own m o s t o f t h e t i m e . I n f o r m a t i o n on t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d was r e c o r d e d p r i m a r i l y b e c a u s e o f i t s s i g n i f i c a n c e t o h i m . A g a i n , a f t e r t h e r e c o r d i n g h a d s t o p p e d , he w e n t on t a l k i n g . G r a n d f a t h e r knew some i n f o r m a t i o n b e i n g g i v e n was u n r e l a t e d t o h i s w o r k , b u t he was t e l l i n g me f a c t s w h i c h he knew I s h o u l d l e a r n f o r m y s e l f a n d f o r h i s l i f e h i s t o r y . A g r e a t d e a l i s r e v e a l e d i n t h i s c h a p t e r a b o u t G r a n d - f a t h e r ' s v a l u e s a n d c h a r a c t e r — h i s i n d u s t r i o u s n e s s , l e a d e r s h i p and a d m i n i s t r a t i v e c a p a b i l i t y , i n v o l v e m e n t a n d i n t e r e s t i n t h e f i s h i n g i n d u s t r y , a n d c o n c e r n f o r t h e w e l f a r e o f N a t i v e f i s h e r m e n a n d N a t i v e p e o p l e s i n g e n e r a l a r e v e r y e v i d e n t . H i s a w a r e n e s s o f e c o n o m i c c o n d i t i o n s i s a l s o e v i d e n t . What s t a r t e d o u t as a r e c o r d i n g p r i m a r i l y f o r h i s i n t e r e s t a n d s a t i s f a c t i o n a c t u a l l y p r o d u c e d r e v e a l i n g comments i n d i c a t i n g some o f t h e r e c u r r i n g p r o b l e m s w h i c h h a v e b e s e t t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d — m a i n t a i n i n g m e m b e r s h i p , l o s s o f c o n t a c t b e t w e e n e x e c u t i v e a n d members, p r o v i d i n g b e n e f i t s and s e r v i c e s t o members, n e g o t i a t i o n s a n d s t r i k e w o r k . P r o b l e m s e n c o u n t e r e d b y N a t i v e I n d i a n s i n t h e f i s h i n g i n d u s t r y h a v e a l s o b e e n b r o u g h t f o r t h — i n c r e a s e d c o m p e t i t i o n , e q u i p m e n t c o s t s , t e c h n o l o g i c a l a d v a n c e s . A d e l a y u n t i l t h e n e x t i n t e r v i e w was novi7 n e c e s s a r y . M e t h o d , p r o c e d u r e s , c h o i c e o f i n f o r m a n t s a n d g o a l s o f t h e s t u d y r e q u i r e d r e - e v a l u a t i o n . D u r i n g t h i s t i m e t h e t h r e e t a p e s w e r e 60 t r a n s c r i b e d v e r b a t i m a nd t y p e d a l o n g w i t h n o t e s f r o m t h e t h i r d i n f o r m a n t . C u r s o r y c o n t e n t a n a l y s i s o f t h e s e t h r e e s e t s o f m a t e r i a l b r o u g h t some i n t e r e s t i n g p o s s i b i l i t i e s t o t h e s u r f a c e . The m o s t o b v i o u s , b u t a t t h i s t i m e most u n a t t a i n a b l e a l t e r n a t i v e was t o c o n t i n u e c o l l e c t i n g an i n d e p t h l i f e h i s t o r y f o r e a c h o f t h e l i s t e d i n f o r m a n t s b e c a u s e o f t h e e a s e w i t h w h i c h r i c h c o l l e c t i o n s c o u l d be a t t a i n e d . A w o r k a b l e a p p r o a c h r e q u i r e d l i m i t i n g t h e number o f i n f o r m a n t s a nd t h e s c o p e o f t h e d a t a i f d e t a i l e d i n f o r m a t i o n was t o be c o l l e c t e d . H e r e t h e d e c i s i o n t o r e s t r i c t t h e r e s e a r c h t o c o l l e c t i n g t h e w o r k h i s t o r i e s o f R o s e and E d S p a r r o w was f i n a l i z e d a n d a p p r o v e d . As t h e s e t r a n s c r i p t s w e r e r e v i e w e d s e v e r a l common f e a t u r e s became a p p a r e n t . B o t h g r a n d p a r e n t s r e l a t e d v e r y w e l l a n d e a s i l y t o a r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h e i r p a s t . I n a d d i t i o n t o t h e s p e c i f i c w ork h i s t o r y r e f e r e n c e s , t h e y w e r e v o l u n t a r i l y a n d p e r h a p s u n c o n s c i o u s l y r e l a t i n g e t h n o g r a p h i c d e t a i l s . T h e s e d e t a i l s w e r e n o t b e i n g a s k e d f o r b u t w e r e n e v e r t h e l e s s p e r t i n e n t t o t h e i r h i s t o r y and r e l e v a n t t o t h e f o r t h c o m i n g a n a l y s i s . No a t t e m p t was made t o c u r t a i l t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n s i n c e i t seemed s u c h an i n t e g r a l p a r t o f t h e r e c a l l p a t t e r n . 3.4 Tapes 25, 26 Ed Sparrow March 5, 1975 Interviewing with Ed was continued, primarily because of his a v a i l a b i l i t y and i n t e r e s t perhaps stimulated by concern over incompleteness of his e a r l i e r tapes. Before the interview a l i s t of possible questions centered around f i s h i n g and the f i s h i n g industry was drawn up. I hoped that i n answering these, addi- t i o n a l r e c o l l e c t i o n s would be stimulated providing enough e x p l i c i t d e t a i l to b u i l d on sequences of work and a c t i v i t y . Grandfather spoke when he pleased and for as long as he wanted to. There were pauses during the interview when the recorder was turned off i n order that he had time to order his r e c o l l e c t i o n s before continuing. We digressed from the subject matter many times throughout the interviews, e s p e c i a l l y i f Grandfather seemed to be t i r i n g or d i s t r a c t e d . Copies of the tape transcripts were compiled and given to my grandparents as the t r a n s c r i p t s became available. This was to encourage them to read the material f o r accuracy and content, to keep them fa m i l i a r with the materials already covered while urging them to disclose a d d i t i o n a l information. 62 Tape 25 Recorded: March 5, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrow, Sr. Musqueam WORK HISTORY — FISHING LOCATIONS AND COMPANIES Question: Who did you f i s h for, where did you fish? Terra Nova cannery, that's when I fished with my granduncle, but I didn't even get a place. I fished two - three years with my granduncle. I think i t was 1916, '17 when we l a s t fished there. Things got so bad then I went i n the camps for a few years and forgot about f i s h i n g . I went to f i s h with Mike (Wilson) 1915, '16 I guess for one season. I t was bad, I never made no money. I gave i t up and went to logging camps. In 1924 the f i r s t cannery I went to was Oceanic i n Skeena. 1925 I moved to Claxton. I fished there from 1925 t i l l 1942, I think, when I quit going up there. Question: Where did you f i s h i n the Fraser? Sometimes r i g h t out here (off Musqueam). Wherever the old f e l l a f e l t l i k e going. Sometimes outside the dropoff, sometimes we were f i s h i n g outside the lookout. I t used to be a good place there you know. Sometimes i t used to be at the sturgeon traps; there was a kind of a hole i n the sandbanks, with a l i t t l e slough going by. I didn't even know but the old guy knew. He just f e l t around with his oar then we'd anchor t i l l the tide goes low then we'd throw our net out. The f i s h get caught i n there you know. It's shallow a l l around except that 'lake' when the tide goes out. Sometimes we'd go to Steveston, s a i l over there. Wait for the tide and chuck out. When we'd come back, maybe make a d r i f t or two out i n the Gulf on evening set. We never worked l i k e you do now days you know. There was so much f i s h you didn't have to work as hard as you do now. Later on I was f i s h i n g with Tommy Cole. He used to 63 go a l l o v e r t o o , y o u know. He h a d a g a s b o a t . T h e r e u s e d t o b e good s o c k e y e f i s h i n g o v e r o n S p a n i s h B a n k s . Come a l l t h e way f r o m T e r r a N o v a , o u t t h a t way and f i s h o v e r t h e r e . We d i d e x a c t l y t h e same t h i n g , f i s h e d a r o u n d o u t h e r e o n t h e f l a t s when t h e t i d e i s r i g h t . M o s t o f t h e t i m e t h e r e ' s a b r o k e n t i d e a t n i g h t . Y o u d o n ' t go o u t t o o l o w . Y o u f i s h t h e r e p r a c t i c a l l y a l l n i g h t y o u know. Q u e s t i o n ; D i d y o u f i s h a r o u n d t h e e n d o f P o i n t G r e y ? Y e s . We u s e d t o d r i f t o u t f r o m t h e r i v e r . A n y w h ere a r o u n d t h e f l a t s . Where t h e r e ' s k i n d o f a r i v e r g o i n g o u t f r o m j u s t o u t s i d e w h e r e t h e t r e a t m e n t p l a n t i s . The o l d f e l l a u s e d t o f i s h r i g h t o n t h e d r o p f r o m w h e r e t h e d i r t y w a t e r i s o u t . The n e t s t h e n w e r e t o o c o a r s e , y o u d o n ' t f i s h i n c l e a n w a t e r t h e n . We d i d n ' t go down Canoe P a s s way w i t h s a i l b o a t s , m o s t l y j u s t a r o u n d t h e f l a t s h e r e . J u s t when we h e a r t h e r e ' s f i s h somewhere e l s e t h e n we go. F o l l o w t h e f l e e t . Q u e s t i o n : Were o t h e r p e o p l e f i s h i n g a t Canoe P a s s ? A l o t o f p e o p l e go t h e r e . F r o m Musqueam some go t o C a n o e P a s s , some t o Deas I s l a n d a b o v e t h e t u n n e l . Q u i t e a f e w p e o p l e u s e d t o go t h e r e . T h e y u s e d t o s c a t t e r a l l o v e r . Some w o u l d be i n Acme C a n n e r y a c r o s s f r o m T e r r a N o v a ; a f e w go t o S t e v e s t o n . I n t h e f a l l when I was f i s h i n g w i t h Tommy C o l e we u s e d t o go up S q u a m i s h t o f i s h d o g s a l m o n . S o m e t i m e s we'd s t a y t h e r e f o r a l m o s t a week. Q u e s t i o n : Were y o u f i s h i n g a t t h e mouth o f t h e r i v e r o r i n Howe Sound a t S q u a m i s h ? T h e r e was a b o u n d a r y t h e r e . Y o u c a n ' t go up t h e r i v e r y o u know. T h e r e ' s a b o u n d a r y a b o u t two m i l e s o u t f r o m t h e w h a r f . Y o u c a n ' t go i n s i d e o f i t . We u s e d t o go up t h e r e . I d o n ' t know, Tommy l i k e d i t . T h e r e w a s n ' t t o o much money made b u t I j u s t w e n t a l o n g . Coho and d o g s a l m o n i s a b o u t a l l y o u g e t up t h e r e a t t h a t t i m e o f y e a r . T h a t ' s a b o u t t h e o n l y p l a c e s we w e n t t o y o u know when we f i s h e d a r o u n d h e r e . Q u e s t i o n : When y o u f i s h e d w i t h M i k e W i l s o n ? We f i s h e d a t Canoe P a s s t h e n i n t h e f a l l . I n t h e f a l l I was w o r k i n g a t S c o t t i s h C a n a d i a n c a n n e r y when t h e y a s k e d me t o go f i s h w i t h h i m . T h a t ' s a f t e r I g i v e u p , s t a r t e d f i s h i n g f o r m y s e l f . T h i n g s w e r e s o b a d . I f i s h e d w i t h h i m f o r o v e r a month I g u e s s . I d o n ' t remember how much I made, i t w a s n ' t v e r y much anyway. Up a n d down t h e C anoe P a s s R i v e r , y o u know. M i k e was l i v i n g w i t h h i s 64 p a r e n t s t h e n , w h e r e A n d y i s s t a y i n g now. T h e r e was a l o t o f f i s h t h e r e i n t h e f a l l b u t t h e y w e r e so c h e a p . T h a t t i m e o f t h e y e a r .... b u y w h i t e s p r i n g s f o r a n y money. A l o t o f g u y s w e r e t h r o w i n g t h e i r w h i t e s p r i n g s away, a l s o t h e i r humpback. T h i s i s i n t h e f a l l y o u know, m i d d l e o f O c t o b e r . Q u e s t i o n ; D i d y o u f i s h w i t h o t h e r b o a t s o r a l o n e ? D i d b o a t s t r a v e l t o g e t h e r a n y w h e r e ? Y o u d o n ' t t r a v e l w i t h a n y b o d y . Y o u go m o s t l y i n d i v i d u a l a n y w h e r e . Y o u p l a n y o u r f i s h i n g d a y s a h e a d o f t i m e , w h e r e y o u ' r e g o i n g t o g o . P r a c t i c a l l y t h e same t h i n g up n o r t h . I t ' s j u s t when y o u ' r e m o v i n g f r o m one f i s h i n g g r o u n d t o t h e o t h e r y o u t r a v e l w i t h t w o , t h r e e o t h e r b o a t s m o s t o f t h e t i m e . B u t h e r e t h r e e - f o u r d a y s y o u s t a y w h e r e v e r y o u w a n t t o go t o f i s h . S o m e t i m e s q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g t o s e e them. Q u e s t i o n ; D i d y o u h a v e s p e c i f i c a r e a s y o u ' c l a i m e d * i n o r d e r t o f i s h ? T h e r e ' s some a r e a s w h e r e y o u g o t t a w a i t y o u r t u r n y o u know. B u t n o b o dy was g o i n g t o c l a i m a s p o t a n y w h e r e . A t l e a s t t h e y w o n ' t b e . I g u e s s when t h e I n d i a n s w e r e f i s h i n g b e f o r e t h e c a n n e r i e s came, y o u c a n ' t i n t e r f e r e . One p l a c e w h e r e y o u f i s h . C o m m e r c i a l f i s h i n g , a n y w h e r e y o u g o , I g u e s s a s l o n g a s y o u d o n ' t i n t e r f e r e w i t h one a n o t h e r . B u t i n m o s t p l a c e s y o u c h a n g e d r i f t s . P e o p l e w a i t f o r t h e i r t u r n . When t h e i r t u r n comes t h e y d r i f t d o w n s t r e a m ; They s t i l l do i t now, w a i t f o r t h e i r t u r n . T h a t h a s n ' t c h a n g e d , i t ' s s t i l l t h a t way.. T a k e a n o t h e r man's d r i f t , w e l l t h e w a r w i l l s t a r t . Q u e s t i o n ; Were t h e r e c e r t a i n a r e a s o n t h e r i v e r w h e r e y o u c o u l d c a t c h f i s h b e t t e r t h a n i n o t h e r a r e a s ? I t a l l d e p e n d s . I t ' s a l l a c c o r d i n g t o t h e way t h e f i s h move. S o m e t i m e s y o u go o u t b e t w e e n s p o t s w h e r e t h e y r a i s e t h e s u r f a c e o f w a t e r o r come o u t o v e r t h e b a r , o r r i g h t a t t h e mouth o f t h e r i v e r w h e r e y o u w a i t . Y o u s t i l l h a v e t o w a i t y o u r b l o o d y t u r n a t t h a t t i m e . I t seems y o u c o u l d f i s h a n y w h e r e y o u t h r e w y o u r n e t a f t e r when t h e t i d e i s r i g h t . T h e r e was s o many f i s h . We u s e d t o a n c h o r . L i k e when we w e r e a t T e r r a N o va f i s h i n g w i t h my g r a n d u n c l e y o u know, u s e d t o a n c h o r b e h i n d a p o i n t . J u s t b e f o r e t h e t i d e t u r n e d h e ' d t h r o w h i s n e t r i g h t b e h i n d t h e p o i n t o f t h e s a n d b a r . The f i s h w o u l d seem t o come a l o n g t h e r e . He'd l o a d up a n d go b a c k a g a i n . N e v e r f i s h e d t o o l o n g . H a l f t h e t i m e we w e r e w a l k i n g a r o u n d t h e c a n n e r y a t t h e camp. Q u e s t i o n ; D i d y o u h a v e t o t a k e y o u r own f i s h i n t o t h e c a n n e r y ? 65 Oh, yes then. Deliver i n Terra Nova they didh't have no c o l l e c t o r going around then you know. They had scows at the wharf. You get a chance, you go r i g h t to the front of the cannery. Conveyor, I guess they c a l l i t , the chute where they pick up the f i s h . Shoots r i g h t up inside the cannery. Them days we didn't have no c o l l e c t o r s . I seen them throw f i s h onto a scow anchored i n Steveston. No c o l l e c t o r going around except a scow would be towed by a tug boat and he anchored there. A t a l l y man would be aboard. I t ' s the only d i f f e r e n t system I seen there when I was a k i d . Seems to me everybody came home af t e r the tide was over then you know. You never stayed out a l l hours of the day l i k e you do now. Question; Were you paid cash d i r e c t l y for your fish? No. You get paid a f t e r the end of the season unless you were independent. I didn't think i t would pay anybody to be independent. Hardly any cash buyers them days. Question; When you started f i s h i n g around Claxton (in the Skeena River) what areas did you f i s h ? Were you f i s h i n g just i n the ri v e r ? A l l over there. At night we used to go out. I f there was no f i s h i n the r i v e r we'd go outside, same as we do here. Go outside Laurier l i g h t s I guess i t would be. I t ' s quite a ways down below, about ten, f i f t e e n miles away from the r i v e r . We went quite regular. When there's no f i s h i n the r i v e r you have to keep moving around. Sometimes we go to Eddy's Pass — that's behind Stephens Island, when there's no f i s h above. Mostly i n the early part of the season when we was doing that you know. But when the f i s h gets i n the r i v e r , w ell you don't have to go on no more. That's at least we didn't, most of our Fraser River gang never run a l l over the place. Of course, i t ' s harder work to be doing that. Once i n a while I'd run out aft e r I get t i r e d you know and sleep there for a while. When the f i s h i s i n the r i v e r we back up to the gap they c a l l i t .... Kenny's Island. A l l the way up then we pick up and cross over. Anyway around Claxton we back up to Point Lambert. I f you're too early you pick i t up again for high water and chuck i t out again. We t r a v e l l e d about f i v e - s i x miles an hour up there when we were backing up. Same way as when the t i d e i s going out. We'd go quite a long ways up the r i v e r before they moved the boundary. We used to go r i g h t up to a place they c a l l e d Port Essington. The boundary was about eight - ten miles above that at one time. As time went along they kept m o v i n g i t y o u know. J u s t b e f o r e t h e l a s t y e a r I was up there7 t h e l a s t c o u p l e o f y e a r s t h e b o u n d a r y was way down b e l o w P o r t E s s i n g t o n . I t was a p l a c e , P o i n t M o w i c h I g u e s s y o u ' d c a l l i t . T h e n I ' d s i g h t P o i n t L a m b e r t . T h e y w e r e g e t t i n g down p r e t t y l o w y o u know. O n l y a b o u t f i v e - s i x m i l e s away f r o m t h e m outh o f t h e r i v e r t h e n . I g u e s s t h e r e a s o n why i s t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g t o o many f i s h e r m e n up t h e r e t h e n . The?! s t a r t e d p u t t i n g r e s t r i c t i o n o n . Gas b o a t s a n d w h a t n o t w e r e g e t t i n g a r o u n d t o o f a s t . S a i l b o a t ; d a y s , w e l l , when y o u ' r e done d r i f t i n g , y o u a n c h o r somewhere a t t h e s i d e o f t h e r i v e r . Y o u d o n ' t d r i f t no more b e c a u s e y o u ' r e n e v e r a b l e t o g e t ( b a c k ) . I t ' s q u i t e q u i e t a f t e r y o u g e t p a s t P o i n t L a m b e r t a n d P o i n t M o w i c h y o u know. T a k e y o u a l o n g t i m e t o g e t a s h o r e t h e r e . Y o u c a n d r i f t a l o n g way t o o b e f o r e y o u g e t a s h o r e . Q u e s t i o n : Were t h e r e more b o a t s g o i n g up f r o m V a n c o u v e r a r e a s a s t h e y e a r s w e n t on? F o r a w h i l e . I g u e s s J o K i p p was one o f t h e e a r l y o n e s t h a t w e n t up S k e e n a . We d i d n ' t b o t h e r a b o u t g o i n g up t h e r e y o u know. We knew t h e r e was a l o t o f f i s h b u t t h e t h i n g i s t h e y w e r e c h e a p . A s t i m e w e n t on t h e r e was q u i t e a few f i s h e r m e n f r o m h e r e s t a r t e d t o move up t h e r e e v e r y summer, j u s t f o r t h e s e a s o n . T h e y u s e d m o s t l y r e n t a l b o a t s t h e m d a y s . T h e y u s e d t o go up o n a s t e a m b o a t a n d r e n t a b o a t up t h e r e . When t h e s e a s o n was f i n i s h e d , w e l l t h e y j u s t t i e t h e b o a t up a n d l e a v e i t . I t was d i f i f e r e n t w i t h u s . We h a d o u r own b o a t s . A l o t o f g u v s go up t h e r e f r o m t h e F r a s e r d u r i n g t h e r e g u l a r ( s e a s o n • : 5. We s t a r t e d go up t h e r e i n t h e e a r l y p a r t o f J u n e t h e n y o u know. The s e a s o n u s e d t o o p e n a b o u t t h e t w e n t i e t h o f J u n e . We'd g e t up t h e r e f o r t h e o p e n i n g . T h e r e was f i s h e r m e n f r o m a l l o v e r . I knew q u i t e a f e w g u y s f r o m L a n g l e y u s e d t o go up t h e r e . M o s t l y b r e e d s a n d w h i t e s . N o t v e r y many I n d i a n s go up S k e e n a y o u know. T h e y m o s t l y go t o R i v e r s I n l e t . T h e y s c a t t e r e d a l l o v e r . T h e y h a d a l o t o f b l o o d y c a n n e r i e s up t h e r e . T h e r e was N. P. — N o r t h e r n P a c i f i c , B. C. P a c k e r s , C a n a d i a n F i s h , w e l l t o w a r d t h e e n d , N e l s o n B r o t h e r s got i n t h e r e w i t h a l i t t l e c a n n e r y i n P o r t E d w a r d s . T h e r e was some o t h e r c o m p a n i e s t h e r e . We s c a t t e r e d a l l o v e r y o u know. O n l y t h e m a i n c o m p a n i e s a r e a c t i v e now, t h e b i g c o m p a n i e s . F i r s t y e a r when I w e n t up was 1924. I was w i t h B. C. P a c k e r s . T h e n I s w i t c h e d t o Tom W a l l a c e , W a l l a c e C a n n i n g Company I g u e s s t h e y c a l l e d them. A y e a r o r two a f t e r I was a t C l a x t o n t h e y a m a l g a m a t e d w i t h B. C. P a c k e r s . Q u i t e a f e w o t h e r s m a l l c o m p a n i e s j o i n e d b. C. P a c k e r s y o u know. T h e y b o u g h t t h e l i t t l e f e l l o w s o u t I g u e s s . T h e y b o u g h t W a l l a c e F i s h i n g Co. N o t t o o l o n g a g o , Tom W a l l a c e was t e l l i n g me t h e y n e v e r g o t a l l t h e i r money when t h e y s o l d o u t t o B. C. P a c k e r s . Question: Did you ever go f i s h i n g at Rivers Inlet? 67 Yes. I went there one season a f t e r I q u i t Skeena. Lyle and John Cook heard rumors there was great big run up there. I didn't want to go up there. I had enough of t r a v e l l i n g back .and f o r t h . I think i t was 1950 when they went up. They had a ren t a l boat from Imperial (B. C. Packers). They were quite young. They got excited, they wanted to go up there. A whole bunch of guys. I t o l d them — you guys w i l l be up there too damn l a t e . I t might have been '50. A . whole bunch started o f f . Mostly B. C. Packers boats as I remember. I didn't want to go, but the old lady t o l d me to go along with the boys. So I went up. B i l l McDonald and Ed Peterson, a whole bunch. About ten or f i f t e e n boats started o f f for Rivers I n l e t . We went running a f t e r them, the f i s h was already canned. We did a l l r i g h t though f o r the short time we were there. I got eight hundred sockeye; I forgot what John and them got. Roy (Wilson) happened to be home that year too, and he went tearing up. We were l a t e ; the main run was fi n i s h e d when we got up there. I just happened to be lucky; I got more than the other guys that went up. Running a f t e r canned salmon, you know! I figured i t would be that way because that run up there never l a s t s very long. One or two weeks, that's i t . Only stragglers a f t e r . I guess i f we'd made i t . We couldn't make i t across the sound when we got there Sunday morning. We wanted to get up there for the opening. We didn't get up there t i l l the Monday. This about the tenth of July when we started going up there. Late you know. That's the only time I was ever i n Rivers I n l e t . I made up my mind to quit going up and down the coast long before that. That's only once I was up Rivers I n l e t . Never bothered no more, although they had some good seasons a f t e r that. I thought I better stay put at home. Question: Did you f i s h anywhere on your way up to Skeena? No. Just went straight up. When things got bad i n Skeena River I started f i s h i n g on the Banks Island. Mink- trap Bay a l l around there. I fished there for about f i v e , six years I guess. Skeena was just — well our main camp was at Claxton, but there was a camp i n Minktrap. We stayed there pretty near a l l summer. They had no bath or nothing out there. We used to get on a packer and go up to Claxton, get cleaned up every other week. Whole bunch ' started f i s h - ing out there. We'd get a packer to go up, come back early Sunday morning. We gotta be there for opening Sunday, 6:00 (P.M. ) you know. We used to f i s h up to Friday, 6:00 i n the afternoon. Get home and get to the camp, p u l l your net on the rack. Then get on a packer and t r a v e l a l l night just to get to the camp. I did well there. Question: Is there no l i m i t on the number of f i s h caught? 68 1930 i s the only time I remember. There was a big run i n 1930 and they limited fishermen for a while to about two hundred for one or two days, that was a l l ; that's the only time I remember them l i m i t i n g up there. There was so many canneries a l l over you know. There was canneries a l l over Inverness Slough I guess. I can't r e c a l l how many, I only went through there a few times, just t r a v e l l i n g . Port Essington, there was canneries a l l over there the same way as they were i n Steveston you know. It started to peter out too, the same way as what happened here. The s l i d e i n Babine — Babine must have been one of the main spawning grounds. Nobody kiew there was a s l i d e there too. The r i v e r was blocked o f f for quite a few years before they found out. I think the r e a l l y bad year: was 1938 or *39. There was nothing. I had maybe s i x , seven, eight hundred sockeye for the season. That was pretty close to the tops. At 50* a piece, my God, you can't pay for expenses up (Skeena) — gasoline, nets, l i v i n g up there. I just never made nothing. In fact I was about $300 - $400 i n debt. I had to borrow money from Granny (Rose) to get down, to buy gas. Question: Was she (Rose Sparrow) working up there? Yes, she worked up there. She worked up there — well, not every year. Sometimes she stayed home you know. The l a s t few years I went up there she .... she worked u n t i l 1926, I guess. Oh, she went up there i n 1927. I went up early that year. Build a cannery wing. I think that was the f i r s t year she went up. She went up i n '25, that's r i g h t . . . . I went up there to work on the cannery r e p a i r s . We went up in March. They were s t a r t i n g to reb u i l d the cannery. I'd do that for two or three years. I used to go up early. I think 1930 she didn't go. I can't r e c a l l the other years she stayed home. I didn't want to go up with kids. She'd i n s i s t to go after that. So I'd have to take her along. Sometimes you go up on the steamboat and other times you want to t r a v e l on the boat. You can't make money t r a v e l l i n g on the steamboat a l l the time, too many kids. I don't know how many years she worked up there. She knows herself. 1928 when I bought my f i r s t new boat, you know. Question: Did you f i s h other than i n the r i v e r ? When we got home from Skeena we used to f i s h out here. We t r a v e l l e d up and down the coast from 1927 up u n t i l the time I qu i t . Mike and them kept going up there for f i v e - s i x years a f t e r I qu i t going up. 1942 the l a s t year I went up. Ronny went up i n 1943, Mike and Ronny went up there 69 a few times after I quit going you know, with Mike and them. I can't r e c a l l how many times he went up, but he t r a v e l l e d with Mike and them for a few times up there. When he (Ronny) quit he started f i s h i n g Rivers I n l e t . I think Mike went up there for s i x , seven years aft e r I quit. I just didn't l i k e to run around with my family on board the boat you know. That's the only way you make money going up there when the f i s h are so damn cheap. You count your expenses from the time you leave here. There's gas and groceries; i f you break down somewhere along the way, §?ou gotta stop and repair your engine. You get up there you got a net to pay fo r . They started to r e s t r i c t the l i n e s and one thing and another. One time they used to give us the net for nothing, and the l i n e s for nothing. They rep a i r your net when you snag and don't charge you nothing, replace your lead- l i n e s i f you l o s t i t — no charge. That's the l a s t four or f i v e years up there. They made everybody pay for everything we got. For a while everything was good — free. In fact they gave me a net sometimes when I came down when I got a bum season up there. They helped, they were pretty good to me up there you know. I broke down one year. I guess i t was about '36, '37. I l o s t about two weeks f i s h i n g . They never had no spare boat up there. I got used to a gas boat. I t r i e d sailboat; and I couldn't make a go of i t . F i n a l l y they got an engine sent up. I t took about two weeks before I got going again, they give me the engine for nothing; they never charged me for i t . I guess they figure I l o s t too much time. Sometimes they'give me a net to st a r t with down here. When you're paying for a boat, and your gear and everything else you don't have much money coming through i n them days. When you get down here you gotta s t a r t to use d i f f e r e n t kinds of nets down here. Nets you used up there were o i l e d you know, f i n e r . I t doesn't stand up here for any length of time. I t breaks much easier. Linen nets they have over here — f l a x , made of f l a x . Stronger, but they're coarser. Early i n the season, I went one year to Nass River. That's outside of Port Simpson. Sometimes you do pretty well there on sockeyes you know. I t takes about f i v e - s i x hours to get there from Claxton. That's before we started going out Banks Island. I kind of think Ronny went there two or three times a f t e r , the same place where we used to go. Mostly the early part. There's never any f i s h i n Skeena as far as I could remember i n the opening. 1930 was the only time. I t opened on the twentieth (of June? L.S.). I got up la t e that year. I bumped a kid (with the car) i n town and had to stay there to f i n d out how he was. At least I was t o l d to stay around. The same day I was supposed to be moving up north. When that happened I took some guys that were going to Skeena from here to Union Wharf. They were going to go up on a boat. On my way back a k i d crossed me on a bic y c l e at the old Georgia Viaduct. 70 I was one week b e h i n d M i k e and them. T h e y w e r e w a i t i n g f o r me down t h e P o i n t ( P o i n t G r e y ) . T h e r e was no r a d i o p h o n e s o r n o t h i n g i n them d a y s . They s t a y e d t h e r e t i l l 4:00 t h a t d a y a n d f i n a l l y t h e y l e f t . When I g o t up t h e r e , I was a week a n d two d a y s b e h i n d t h e o t h e r g u y s y o u know. I t was T u e s d a y when I g o t up t h e r e , M i k e a l r e a d y h a d e i g h t h u n d r e d s o c k e y e . I n j u s t a week and a h a l f he h a d e i g h t h u n d r e d s o c k e y e . I g u e s s M i k e h a d f o u r t h o u s a n d , e i g h t h u n d r e d . I h a d f o u r t h o u s a n d , f o u r h u n d r e d f o r t h e y e a r , f o r t h e s e a s o n a f t e r g e t t i n g up l a t e . P r e t t y n e a r c a u g h t up t o M i k e . I d o n ' t t h i n k he h a d t h a t many -- o n l y t w o h u n d r e d d i f f e r e n c e anyway. M i k e was h i g h b o a t a n d I came s e c o n d f o r t h e s e a s o n . I g u e s s we w e r e l u c k y . Y e a r a f t e r y e a r we w e r e d o i n g t h e same t h i n g y o u know. I f M i k e d o n ' t come h i g h b o a t , I came h i g h b o a t . V e r y s e l d o m somebody e l s e b e a t s u s . W e l l , we w o r k e d h a r d , h a r d l y e v e n s l e e p . Q u e s t i o n : How d i d t h e o t h e r p e o p l e who w e n t f r o m Musqueam do up t h e r e ? T hey w e r e m o s t l y on r e n t a l b o a t s y o u know. You c a n ' t go up t h e r e and e x p e c t t o make money i n S k e e n a R i v e r r i g h t o f f t h e b a t . Y o u ' v e g o t t o l e a r n t h e p l a c e s . I t ' s a h a r d p l a c e t o f i s h . T a k e y o u f o u r , f i v e y e a r s t o g e t o n t o t h a t p l a c e . ' O v e r h e r e , c h u c k o u t y o u r n e t i n t h e g u l f a t n i g h t , w e l l y o u ' r e l u c k y y o u g e t a b u n c h o f f i s h . Up t h e r e i t ' s s o m e t h i n g d i f f e r e n t . Y o u ' v e g o t t o be o n t h e j o b t h e w h o l e b l o o d y t i m e y o u know. Y o u ' v e g o t t o l e a r n , s t u d y t h e t i d e s a n d w h a t n o t . I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e y done v e r y g o o d . E d d y G u i e r i n w e n t up t h e r e , B u s , o l d J a c k — W a l k e r ' s f a t h e r , B i l l y G r a n t , T o n y P o i n t , t h e r e ' s a b u n c h o f t h e m w e n t up t h e r e . B u t t h e y d i d n ' t l a s t l o n g . I t h i n k E d G u e r i n o n l y w e n t up one s e a s o n up t h e r e . Tony w e n t up t h e r e f o r a few y e a r s , o h — Sammy G r a n t w e n t up t h e r e s e v e r a l t i m e s . A l P e t e r s , I s a a c W i l l i a m s f r o m T s a w w a s s e n w e n t up t h r e e , f o u r t i m e s , B i l l J a c o b f r o m T s a w w a s s e n , P e t e r J a c o b . They a l l g i v e up i n t i m e . I f y o u d i d n ' t know how t o w o r k t h a t p l a c e v / e l l y o u ' r e j u s t w a s t i n g t i m e y o u know. Q u e s t i o n : How d i d y o u l e a r n how t o f i s h up t h e r e — j u s t b y t r y i n g o r d i d y o u h a v e someone t o show y o u ? W e l l , I s t u d i e d t h e p l a c e . S t u d y t h e t i d e s . Some g u y s w o u l d go o u t a n y o l d t i m e . W e l l , y o u ' r e j u s t w a s t i n g y o u r t i m e t h e n . I t ' s n o t l i k e t h i s p l a c e y o u know. Y o u t h i n k t h e F r a s e r R i v e r i s f a s t b u t S k e e n a i s t w i c e a s f a s t . I f y o u go o u t t o o e a r l y y o u r n e t f l o a t s . L e a d l i n e w o u l d n ' t s t a y down. Q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g t o w a t c h a l o t o f g u y s w o r k t o b e a t h e l l , a l l t h e t i m e y o u s a y t h e y s h o u l d n ' t e v e n be o u t b u t t h e y t r y . I n e v e r t o l d y o u a b o u t t h e N o r w e g i a n s t h e y b r o u g h t 71 up t h e r e . They b r o u g h t a b u n c h o f g u y s up t h e r e y o u know. I t h i n k i t was d u r i n g t h e w a r d a y s — C l a x t o n . W e l l , t h e y h a d no b u s i n e s s — a man w i t h a b l o o d y s a i l b o a t h a d no b u s i n e s s g o i n g up t h e r e . B u t t h e y d i d , t h e y b r o u g h t t h e m up t h e r e . We had g a s b o a t s t h e n y o u know. T h e y s e n t a l o t o f t h e m b a c k . They c o u l d n ' t r i s k t h e i r l i v e s when t h e y d i d n ' t know how t o w o r k . A b o u t f o u r o r f i v e b o a t s — G e o r g e J u n e n s o n , J a c o b s o n , J e t m u n d s o n , and I g u e s s two o r t h r e e o t h e r g u y s . T h e r e was f o u r o r f i v e b o a t s , t h a t ' s a l l . Two men t o a c r e w t h e n . I t l o o k e d c o m i c a l when t h e y t o o k them o u t a t s l a c k w a t e r and t r a i n e d them y o u know. T h e y ' d p u l l a n d t h e b l o o d y o a r s w o u l d come way up o u t o f t h e w a t e r a n d t h e y ' d f a l l down. We'd w a t c h on t h e Weekend when t h e y ' r e t r a i n i n g them. K i n d o f f o o l i s h t o b r i n g them g u y s up t h e r e . No e x p e r i e n c e o f a n y k i n d . B u t t h o s e t h a t w e r e k e p t up t h e r e t u r n e d o u t t o be g o o d f i s h e r m e n a f t e r a b i t . J a c o b s o n , a n d J e t m u n d s o n , G e o r g e J u n e n s o n a n d h i s b r o t h e r , E l m e r , O l a f J e n s e n . T h e y made good up t h e r e , b u t i t t o o k t h e m a l o n g t i m e t o make g o o d . O l d Tom W a l l a c e had f a i t h i n t h o s e g u y s , he k e p t them. T u r n e d o u t t o be g o o d f i s h e r m e n l a t e r o n . One guy was d r i f t i n g u p . We'd a l r e a d y f i n i s h e d w i t h t h e t i d e b u t he came d r i f t i n g up. P r e t t y s o o n he s t o p p e d . I was s a y i n g y o u w a t c h t h a t g u y , h e ' s g o i n g t o h i t t h a t b l o o d y s n a g on t h e p o i n t o f t h a t b l o o d y b a r . S u r e e n o u g h , when he g o t t h e r e t h e b l o o d y b o a t swung a r o u n d t h e o t h e r way I s a i d — he g o t t h e s n a g . S u r e he h a d i t . He was p i c k e d up when he g o t t o t h a t p l a c e . He c o u l d n ' t h a v e h a d v e r y much ( t o p i c k up ) . We h a d no b i n o c u l a r s o r n o t h i n g o n t h e b o a t s i n t h e m d a y s y o u know. I g u e s s he t o o k t h e b l o c k o f f t h e boom. The m a s t . You w a n t t o u s e i t a l l up when y o u w a n t t o s a i l . He t i e d i t o n t o t h e b l o o d y n e t . He f i g u r e d he was g o i n g t o p u l l h i s n e t o f f t h e s n a g t h a t way. P r e t t y s o o n h i s b l o o d y b o a t w e n t o v e r a n d l a i d o n i t s s i d e . D r o p p e d h i s m a s t . We d i d n ' t know w h a t t h e h e c k was g o i n g o n . We w e r e w a t c h i n g h i m a l l t h a t t i m e . A w h o l e b u n c h o f us g u y s w e r e t i e d up w a i t i n g f o r t h e t i d e t o s l a c k down b e f o r e we go a g a i n . When he g o t t o t h e camp we a s k e d w h a t h a p p e n e d , C h r i s . T h a t ' s w h a t we u s e d t o c a l l h i m . He w o u l d n ' t t e l l . We saw h i m c h o p p i n g h i s b l o o d y m a s t when he was s n a g g e d , y o u know. He c o u l d n ' t f r e e i t , w e l l t h e damn t h i n g g o t s o damn f a r away i t w e n t and t i p p e d . The l i n e s w e n t t h a t way and he was o v e r h e r e . T h e n i t was l a y i n g o v e r o n i t s s i d e . C h o pped t h e b l o o d y m a s t and t h e b o a t s a t up a g a i n , f u l l o f w a t e r y o u know. I t was c o m i c a l . T r y i n g t o t e a s e h i m . The L a n g l e y b u n c h w e r e up t h e r e t ~. . a b u n c h o^ b r e e d s . E v e r y weekend t h e y go i n t o R u p e r t and I g u e s s t h e y w e r e a l l d r i n k e r s . A t n i g h t one t i m e t h e y s t a r t e d s h o o t i n g f r o m t h e w i n d o w s o u t . I d o n ' t know w h a t t h e h e l l t h e y w e r e s h o o t i n g a t . Guys w e r e s c a t t e r i n g , h i d i n g . We w e r e o u t m e n d i n g o u r n e t s i n t h e e v e n i n g when t h e y w e r e d o i n g t h a t y o u know. T h e r e w e r e w h a r f s o u t on t h e f l a t s . J o e Kip, 72 a n d I w e r e c l o s e t o g e t h e r , we w e r e mending o u r n e t s . P r e t t y - s o o n t h e y s t a r t e d s h o o t i n g . W e l l t h e y w e r e q u a r r e l l i n g I g u e s s . I c o u l d h e a r t h e m a l l t h e t i m e . B u l l e t s w e r e f l y i n g a l l o v e r . We r a n b e h i n d t h e b l u e s t o n e t a n k s . Q u e s t i o n : How o f t e n do y o u h a v e t o b l u e s t o n e y o u r n e t ? E v e r y weekend when y o u g e t i n , y o u know, y o u g o t t a r e - b l u e s t o n e i t . S o m e t i m e s we b l u e s t o n e i t a s we come i n t h e n we go and h a v e s u p p e r o r a b a t h . We come b a c k and r a c k i t . O n l y t h i n g y o u g o t t a wash i t r e a l c l e a n t o t a k e a l l t h a t b l u e s t o n e o f f . M o s t o f t h e t i m e we r a c k i t , w a s h i t , mend i t , b l u e s t o n e i t a n d h a u l i t r i g h t i n t o t h e b o a t a f t e r . So i t w o u l d n ' t b u r n t h a t way, y o u know. Y o u r n e t c o u l d b u r n f r o m b l u e s t o n e i f y o u d o n ' t g e t i t o f f . Some p l a c e s — i t ' s a r o u g h p l a c e t o f i s h , y o u know. On a g r e a t b i g t i d e a t P o i n t - L a m b e r t we'd go a l o n g f r o m C l a x t o n . S o r t o f a r i p w o u l d f o r m r i g h t f r o m t h e p o i n t y o u know. You c o u l d n ' t g e t o v e r i t . Y o u s t i c k a l o n g t h e b l o o d y r i p ; some g u y s ' n e t w o u l d c l i m b o v e r t h e b l o o d y p o i n t . Y o u s e e t h e b l o o d y n e t d r a g o v e r t h e b l o o d y r o c k s l i k e t h a t . A l o t o f g u y s g o t c a u g h t t h a t way; t h e y l o s e e v e r y d a r n t h i n g . T r y t o p i c k up t h e i r n e t a f t e r , w e l l t h e r e ' s n o t h i n g l e f t o f i t , y o u know, i t g o e s t o p i e c e s d r a g g i n g o v e r . Oh, d o u b t i f I c o u l d remember e v e r y t h i n g . I s h o u l d make n o t e s . I g u e s s i t was l a t e ' 3 0 ' s . We w e r e w a i t i n g f o r t h e t i d e t o s l a c k e n up. I t was b a c k i n g up f o r them. C l o s e t o h i g h w a t e r b e f o r e we move. Somebody s a i d , t h e r e was a f i r e a t C l a x t o n . We w e r e a n c h o r e d a t t h e G l o r y H o l e . A l l t h e f i s h w e r e gone t h e n . We w e r e b e h i n d t h e p o i n t — we c o u l d n ' t s e e C l a x t o n . I d o n ' t know who came down t o t h e b o a t t o l e t u s know. We h a d a b o u t f o u r o r f i v e m i l e s t o r u n I g u e s s f r o m t h e camp t o t h e c a n n e r y . We g o t s c a r e d . The b o i l e r r oom c a u g h t o n f i r e . T h e y s a i d t h e t a n k m i g h t e x p l o d e , a n d t h e y s c a r e d e v e r y b o d y away f r o m t h e camp y o u know. I c o u l d n ' t f i n d my f a m i l y when I g o t t o t h e c a n n e r y . T h e y w e r e a l l up i n t h e b u s h . Nobody a r o u n d . T h e y p a c k e d e v e r y t h i n g we h a d a n d h e a d e d t o w a r d t h e s l o u g h r e a l q u i c k . A l l o u r j u n k was down t h e r e a t t h e edge o f t h e c r e e k down b e l o w . I d o n ' t know how; G r a n n y p a c k e d a l l t h o s e t h i n g s I g u e s s . P e o p l e f r o m up t h e r e p a c k e d e v e r y t h i n g down. The w h o l e camp a l m o s t e m p t i e d t h e i r s h a c k s a n d r a n away. I t was q u i t e a w a y s . The b o y s w e r e a l l h e l l a n d gone up t h e t r a i l t o w a r d C a r l y l e C a n n e r y when I c a u g h t up t o them y o u know — W i l l a r d a n d Ronny a n d t h e w h o l e b u n c h o f them. A l l t h e y o u n g b o y s f r o m camp, r u n away. I w e n t a n d a s k e d t h e man, w h a t t h e h e c k y o u s c a r e a l l t h e p e o p l e f o r . Gee w h i z , t h e y r u n a l l o v e r h e c k . Some o f them c o u l d h a r d l y w a l k when we c a u g h t up t o them. Them 73 N o r t h e r n p e o p l e h a d some o l d l a d i e s t h e r e y o u know. We t o l d t h e m t o go b a c k , t h e b l o o d y f i r e was o u t . I q u i t f i s h i n g f o r t h e d a y t h e n . We h a d a h e c k o f a .time p a c k i n g t h e m t h i n g s b a c k . I d o n ' t know how t h e h e c k y o u r G r a n n y p a c k e d t h e m o u t . She was s c a r e d I g u e s s . I t s t a r t e d a f i r e i n o u r s h a c k . The w i n d was b l o w i n g p r e t t y g o o d y o u know; w e s t w i n d b l o w i n g r i g h t f r o m t h e c a n n e r y t o o u r s h a c k . The s h a c k s w e r e l i n e d u p. The c a n n e r y was way o f f o n t h e b l o o d y f l a t s , y o u know. Y e a h , i t s t a r t e d a f i r e o n o u r r o o f . Q u e s t i o n : D i d t h e c a n n e r y p r o v i d e h o u s i n g o r d i d y o u h a v e t o r e n t them? They s u p p l i e d t h e h o u s e s f o r f i s h e r m e n and c a n n e r y w o r k e r s . No r e n t t h e n . Same way i n S t e v e s t o n , y o u d i d n ' t h a v e t o r e n t t i l l K e n F r a s e r a n d t h e m g o t t h e r e and t h e y s t a r t e d t h a t r e n t a l b u s i n e s s . E v e r y b o d y p a y i n g r e n t i n t h e c a n n e r y s h a c k s . Q u e s t i o n : D i d t h e b o y s e v e r go o u t f i s h i n g w i t h y o u a t S k e e n a ? ( W i l l a r d a n d Ron) Oh y e a h , t h e y f i s h e d w i t h me. The w h o l e f a m i l y was up. A l l t h e t i m e I was g o i n g t o B a n k s I s l a n d t h e y w e r e f i s h i n g w i t h me. T h e y w e r e q u i t e s m a l l t h e n y o u know. I g i v e up h a v i n g a p a r t n e r ; I was h a v i n g so much t r o u b l e w i t h p a r t n e r s . Weekends t h e y g e t a p a c k e r a n d go t o R u p e r t , g e t p l a s t e r e d . Y o u n e v e r s e e them no more y o u know. S o m e t i m e s t h e y g e t home l a t e , y o u n e v e r g e t o u t t o o p e n i n g o n S u n d a y . S o , I g a v e up h a v i n g p a r t n e r s . The b o y s s t a r t e d f i s h i n g w i t h me e v e r y summer t i l l Ronny g o t h i s own b o a t . T h e n he w e n t o n h i s own. J o h n n y was f i s h i n g w i t h h i m t h e n . W i l l a r d u s e d t o f i s h w i t h me. B u t b e f o r e t h a t b o t h o f them u s e d t o f i s h w i t h me i n B a n k s I s l a n d . T h e n I was g o i n g t o q u i t up t h e r e a n d J o h n n y a n d L y l e s t a r t e d f i s h i n g w i t h me o v e r h e r e . T h a t was j u s t f o r company y o u know. I q u i t S k e e n a a l t o g e t h e r f o r a b o u t s i x — e i g h t y e a r s . B e f o r e I q u i t g o i n g up t h e r e I u s e d t o go up B a n k s I s l a n d . A t t i m e s i t u s e d t o g e t r o u g h up t h e r e . No r u s h i n g l i k e y o u do i n S k e e n a . Y o u d o n ' t n e e d a p a r t n e r t h e n . A l l h a n d p i c k i n g , no d rums. They h a d a b l o o d y n i g g e r h e a d t o p u l l y o u r n e t a r o u n d . Y o u f a c e away f r o m t h e s t e r n when y o u ' r e p i c k i n g up. T a k e one w i n d o n t h i s t h i n g . T h i s t u r n s . We d i d w e l l up t h e r e y o u know. T h e r e was no f i s h i n '42, b u t '41 we d i d w e l l up t h e r e . We f i s h e d , Ronny a n d I , we f i s h e d o v e r t o w a r d s E d d y ' s P a s s . We d i d n ' t f i s h t h e r i v e r a t a l l , we s t a y e d o u t s i d e f i s h i n g a l l t h e t i m e . Ronny d i d g o o d . He was j u s t g o i n g o n s i x t e e n , y o u know, he w o u l d n ' t be s i x t e e n u n t i l S e p t e m b e r t h a t y e a r . B u t he knew how t o f i s h t h a t p l a c e . He was w i t h me f r o m 74 when he was about ten years o ld t i l l he got his own boat. Well, he worked. He did well over here when they got down in '42. Fishing used to be good one time you know. He got a whole bunch of f i s h j u st down below here one time (Musqueam L.S.). Then when i t slackened off — we fished here for about a week — we went to the main r i v e r over by Steveston. He did well there. In fact everybody did well, I guess. That year there were a l o t of f i s h . That's one of the biggest seasons I had, I guess, the Adam's River run. That's when the price begin to change from that time on — 1942. That year we got 50*. From that time on i t started to come up a l i t t l e b i t every year. Question: Were the f i s h increasing or decreasing i n number? Well, that's a r e a l l y big run (1942). I t was every four years, the Adams run. I t was kind of surprising you know. 1930 I guess was the beginning of that, or 1926. That's the year I went with Mike afte r I came back from Skeena. A l o t of sockeye showed up i n September over there in Canoe Pass. That was the beginning of that. Tape 26 Recorded: March 5, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrow WORK HISTORY We were t a l k i n g about 1942. No, 1930. 1926 was when I f i r s t noted the change i n the late run sockeye you know, that's what fhey c a l l the Adams River run. 1934, s t i l l bigger but i t was so cheap. Then ending of September you're getting next to nothing for sockeye, 15* or so apiece. The company says they didn't want them, there's not sale for them. Number two grade they c a l l them. So we believe them and accepted just a few cents. Then 1938 i t ' s s t i l l the same way. Their excuse i s there's no sale for them. They never did l i m i t , they just cut you o f f . Say we don't want your f i s h . In 1930 they cut us o f f about f i f t e e n t h of September, I guess. We didn't even f i s h u n t i l the sockeye cleared off from the r i v e r . I t was November I guess when we started f i s h i n g again. A l l the time the company didn't want the sockeye. The same thing 75 happened well, every year. 1938 they offered a n i c k e l apiece i f we wanted to f i s h you know. They were going to ship i t across the l i n e i s what they said. Everybody q u i t . I t r i e d one night, and to heck with i t , I give up. They dressed what they got. F i n a l l y the f i s h e r i e s department stepped i n and closed i t down. We lose pretty near a l l our f a l l f i s h i n g then. 1942, one day both Mike and I had about one thousand, six hundred for the day you know. Two d e l i v e r i e s (50* apiece). Then they dropped i t r i g h t a f t e r . The tenth of September I think when they dropped the price down again to 25* apiece then to 15* again. F i n a l l y they said they didn't want them. If you want to f i s h we'll give you a ni c k e l apiece and we'll dress and ship i t across the l i n e . But the Fi s h e r i e s Department says no and closed i t . And i t was closed again. And from there on the price started to change, improve, you know. Then both countries' governments, the United States government and Canada got together. They started t h i s i n f o r - mation program. They started tagging f i s h to s t a r t with. I t wasn't too s t r i c t you know, we were s t i l l getting three, four days a week f i s h i n g . I t was poor i n the summer months. Nothing at a l l . There was one good year of summer sockeye. I can't r e c a l l that year. There was a mixed run -- Chilco, Stelako and a l l them — Fraser. Fraser Lake sockeye petered r i g h t out for some reason. They started building other runs. There was a r e s t r i c t i o n put on — one or two days a week i n 1943 or '44. I t kept on and on and on t i l l I quit f i s h i n g . One, two days a week. I t got r e a l bad so you couldn't make a l i v i n g out of i t you know. I t started to bu i l d up. Different runs b u i l t up. They made f i s h ladders and so on you know. Build up. There's a l l kinds of d i f f e r e n t places they (salmon) go on the lakes i n the i n t e r i o r . I can't r e c a l l just what cycle there we had a pretty good season out of i t you know. Two, three days a week — we made money out of i t . Other following cycles i n the following years, i t wasn't too good. Stuart, and I can't r e c a l l the other places that b u i l t up. By'the time they come i n , the Northern fishermen used to get back. A l o t of times we wished they'd never get back for awhile. They get back and cut us o f f you know. Sometimes I stayed r i g h t i n Spring f i s h i n g instead of putting on a sockeye net you know. I did well at times while the other guys were f i s h i n g sockeye. Pretty soon everybody started doing the same thing. No sockeye, they f i s h springs. The pri c e of f i s h was getting pretty good then you know; started to come up, improve. I t paid us to f i s h springs. Just when the main run of sockeye was on I'd f i s h them. Other times I'd just stay with spring nets — do better that way. A l o t of people didn't r e a l i z e I was doing much better than they were for a long time. They started doing the same thing. 76 Question; When did you st a r t f i s h i n g with the old fellow, Tommy Musqueam? I must have been eleven, I think. I was useless. He ju s t wanted me for company. I could hardly move the boat you know. Two great big oars Columbia b u i l t boats i n them days, s a i l boats. You got to throw the net o f f . You didn't have no drums or nothing then. You gotta kind of spread i t as you throw i t out. Keep the l i n e s parted. I was kind of small for my age you know. I didn't mind. He'd buy me clothes at the end of the season you know. I used to stay out t i l l about the tenth of August I guess. I was supposed to be back at school the end of July, but they used to l e t me stay out because I worked. Get my clothes and a l i t t l e spending money, I was happy. Go back to school. I did that for two, three years, with him. I fished with Tommy Cole i n 1913, then I started f i s h i n g with the old f e l l a again. Then I started getting my t h i r d share as I got older you know, he gave me a t h i r d . From there on, i t wasn't the pric e , but the f i s h j u st petered out. That s l i d e i n 1913, nobody knew anything about i t you know. I t blocked the r i v e r so the f i s h couldn't get up, they just died o f f . Question; Was the old fellow f i s h i n g for a long time before you went out with him? Oh yes, he kept f i s h i n g by himself. He fished for a long time aft e r you know. He kept t r y i n g and t r y i n g . Well, his wife was working i n one of the canneries and he was f i s h i n g . He was a good fisherman. I guess i t was i n his blood; he never quit t i l l he got old, then he quit altogether. I don't know, he never worked, but he just knew the spots, d i f f e r e n t places at a certain time,. Broken tide we'd be away a l l night. He never went on the other side l i k e Tommy Cole did on Spanish Banks. They had t h e i r nets o i l e d . They were woven f i n e r and they were r e a l t i g h t . Tight twist I guess you'd c a l l i t . They'd o i l i t . When they put i t i n bluestone i t kind of turns greeny-black. Pretty near match the water out there. The same thing up the Skeena, but the nets don't l a s t too long. The majority of people never did that to t h e i r nets you know on account of the heat, I guess, from the sun. When you put i t out to mend i t , i t kind of burns. A l o t of people didn't bother to o i l t h e i r nets. And you have to have a certa i n kind of twist on your net. I t costs more I guess. The o i l l a s t s — well, you're lucky to get through one season. Used to get pretty so f t by the time you get through with it.,up Skeena. you know. You st a r t maybe twentieth June and quit about tenth of August. Your net was getting pretty soft by the time you quit , on account of heat, I guess, or laying i n the boats you know, bunched up. When there's no o i l on, well i t ' l l l a s t you a couple of seasons down here. Question: Did anyone else i n your family go into f i s h i n g ; cousins, etc., those about your age? 77 No. I was t h e o n l y b o y o f t h e f a m i l y y o u know. Do y o u mean i n o u r w h o l e f a m i l y ? I d o n ' t t h i n k s o , n o t f o r q u i t e a w h i l e a f t e r I s t a r t e d a g a i n i n 1924. Th e n t h e y a l l seemed t o s t a r t a g a i n g o i n g up R i v e r ' s I n l e t f r o m h e r e y o u know. A w h o l e b u n c h u s e d t o go up R i v e r s I n l e t y o u know. J u s t one p a r t i c u l a r s p o t . T h e y w e r e a l l s a i l b o a t d a y s t o o up t h e r e . T h e y u s e d s k i f f s o r s o m e t h i n g up t h e r e , a n d t h e y c o u l d n ' t move i t down. They u s e d t o go up t h e r e f o r t h e summer, and when t h e y ' r e f i n i s h e d , t h e y ' r e f i n i s h e d . T hey u s e d t o make b i g money up t h e r e y o u know. A l o t o f f i s h I g u e s s w e r e c a u g h t up t h e r e . V i c ( G u e r i n ) a n d a w h o l e b u n c h o f t h e m u s e d t o go up t h e r e . E d G u e r i n , S t e v e A u g u s t , P a t J o h n n y , C o r n e l i u s J o h n n y , w e l l p r a c t i c a l l y t h e w h o l e b u n c h o f p e o p l e f r o m h e r e , t h e y o u n g e r f e l l o w s y o u know. I t was a l l s a i l b o a t s t h e n , s k i f f s . T h e y ' r e a l i t t l e b i t l i g h t e r t h a n t h e C o l u m b i a b u i l t b o a t s . T h e y p u l l a r o u n d p r e t t y e a s y I g u e s s , t h e y ' r e l i g h t e r . T h e y h a d t u g b o a t s up t h e r e t o w i n g them a r o u n d , t h e same a s t h e y d i d o t h e r p l a c e s . G e t t o a s p o t w h e r e y o u t h i n k y o u ' r e g o i n g t o f i s h f o r t h e d a y , a nd y o u d r o p o u t f r o m a t o w . You l e t t h e bov; o u t l o o s e f i r s t , t h e n y o u h a n g o n t h e s t e r n a n d s w i n g t h e b o a t . I t s h o o t s y o u r i g h t c l e a r . I f y o u d i d n ' t know how, w e l l y o u c o u l d g e t t a n g l e d up and t i p o v e r . The t u g b o a t n e v e r s t o p p e d y o u know. Y o u j u s t l e t go when y o u f i n d a s p o t t o f i s h i n . We g o t q u i t e t o w e d up a n d s c a r e d q u i t e a f e w t i m e s t h a t way. M i s e r a b l e , o h , i t was a m i s e r a b l e p l a c e t o f i s h y o u know. I t r a i n s l o t s o f t i m e s up t h e r e . Much more t h a n i t d o e s h e r e i n t h e summer. When B i l l B a k e r was up t h e r e w i t h me i t d i d p r e t t y n e a r t h e w h o l e summer t i l l t h e end o f J u l y b e f o r e i t g o t l i k e t h i s . E v e r y t h i n g was s o damn w e t t h e r e . I n e v e r l a i d i n t h e b l o o d y bunk — we h a d a l i t t l e bunk up i n t h e h e a d o f t h e b l o o d y b o a t , a l i t t l e b i t h i g h e r t h a n t h e f l o o r o f t h e b o a t . I t u s e d t o g e t w e t . I n e v e r e v e n b o t h e r e d t o go i n t h e r e . I u s e d t o j u s t s t a n d b y t h e m a s t i n my r a i n o u t f i t . T h e n t h e r a i n w o u l d go down y o u r b l o o d y n e c k y o u know a n d y o u ' d g e t w e t j u s t t h e same. I n t i m e y o u ' d g e t w e t . I u s e d t o s t a y i n camp a n d d r y o u r c l o t h e s t h e r e . O t h e r g u y s w o u l d go and make h i g h w a t e r . We'd s t a y r i g h t t h e r e . F i n a l l y t h e camp man t o l d u s t o move e v e r y t h i n g t h e r e a n d we s l e p t i n h i s c a b i n ! Y e a h , a m i s e r a b l e l i f e t h a t S k e e n a R i v e r . I t h i n k t h a t ' s how Andy W i l s o n g o t t h a t a r t h r i t i s o r r h e u m a t i s m o r w h a t e v e r he g o t y o u know. I t ' s t h r o u g h g o i n g up t h e r e . He v/as p l a y i n g i t t o u g h , he w o u l d n ' t p u t o n a r a i n h a t . He'd p u t o n a l i t t l e s h o r t r a i n c o a t t h a t ' s a l l , a t t i m e s . M o s t o f t h e t i m e he h a s n ' t g o t i t o n . E v e r y b o d y was w a r n i n g h i m a b o u t i t . No, h e ' d j u s t l a u g h i t o f f . I'm s u r e t h a t ' s what h a p p e n e d w i t h h i m , y o u know. Q u e s t i o n : The o l d f e l l o w y o u w e n t o u t w i t h f i r s t — t h a t was y o u r u n c l e ? 78 G r a n d u n c l e . He's my g r a n d f a t h e r ' s c o u s i n . He'd be g r a n d u n c l e t o me, I g u e s s . My g r a n d f a t h e r d i d some f i s h i n g t o o , b u t he q u i t . He w a n t e d t o b u y a n o t h e r s a i l b o a t a f t e r h i s w e n t h a y w i r e y o u know, a n d he s t a r t e d w o r k i n g i n t h e c a n n e r y . I g u e s s he made 35* a n h o u r . He w o r k e d i n t h e c a n n e r y i n s t e a d o f f i s h i n g . He was h i r i n g . I d o n ' t know wh a t he was g e t t i n g p e r h e a d h i r i n g p e o p l e t o go t o w o r k . T h e y u s e d t o s e n d h i m a l l o v e r t h e p l a c e y o u know. Same t h i n g when he was a t t h e V a n c o u v e r C a n n e r y . He u s e d t o h i r e f o r a company t h e r e y o u know — M i l l a r d s t h e n . He must h a v e made good money b e c a u s e he w e n t a l l o v e r h i r i n g p e o p l e t o come and w o r k i n t h e c a n n e r y . I n e v e r a s k e d h i m , I n e v e r f o u n d o u t w h a t he was m a k i n g . Q u e s t i o n : D i d he go b a c k t o t h i s j o b y e a r a f t e r y e a r ? Oh h e c k , y e s ! He was h i r i n g f o r S c o t t i s h C a n a d i a n C a n n e r y f o r a l o n g t i m e . When t h a t w e n t , he came t o V a n c o u v e r C a n n e r y a n d he h i r e d p e o p l e t h e r e , c a n n e r y w o r k e r s . He was a l l o v e r . T h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n money i n i t f o r h i m . 0 Q u e s t i o n : Was he h i r i n g a l o t o f p e o p l e f r o m Musqueam? P r e t t y n e a r a l l t h e p e o p l e u s e d t o go t h e r e , w o r k f o r t h e c a n n e r y w h e r e he h i r e d . T h e r e was a f e w c a n n e r i e s t h i n n e d o u t a f t e r a b i t . No f i s h . M i l l a r d h a d t h e o n l y c a n n e r y o n t h e w h o l e r i v e r . A l l t h e f i s h f r o m t h e m a i n r i v e r a n d p a r t ways up n o r t h came t o one c a n n e r y . P e o p l e w o u l d h a v e a l o t o f w o r k t h a t way. Same way i t h a p p e n e d i n S t e v e s t o n . A l l t h e m l i t t l e c a n n e r i e s , company c a n n e r i e s , f o r m e d one b i g c a n n e r y . I m p e r i a l i s t h e one where t h e y b r o u g h t t h e f i s h t o . T h e y had A t l a s , q u i t e a f e w ; t h a t camp o v e r by P a c i f i c C o a s t camp. T h e y a l l c l o s e d t h a t down a n d h a d j u s t t h e one c a n n e r y g o i n g . T h e y h a d Canoe P a s s g o i n g , t h e B r u n s w i c k . T h a t c l o s e d down a n d a l l t h e f i s h c a u g h t f r o m t h e i r f i s h e r m e n w e r e c o m i n g t o I m p e r i a l t h e n y o u know. O t h e r c o m p a n i e s d i d t h e same t h i n g . T h e y g o t f a s t e r m a c h i n e s I s u p p o s e . No more h a n d w o r k . When t h e y w e r e h a n d w o r k i n g y o u know, t h e y h a d t o h a v e a l o t o f c a n n e r i e s t o p u t up t h e c a n n e d s a l m o n . Q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g t o s e e them g u y s w o r k i n g b e f o r e t h e m a c h i n i n g came o n . Y o u g o t t a be h a n d y w i t h a b u t c h e r k n i f e . Men w e r e t h e o n e s who h e a d a n d g u t t h e f i s h y o u know. Women f o l k s t h e y w a s h e d , do t h e c a n n i n g — c a n f i l l i n g I g u e s s . G r a n n y d i d q u i t e a b i t o f t h a t y o u know. E v e r y t h i n g was h a n d w o r k , h a n d w o r k , hand w o r k . P i t c h i n g f i s h y o u h a d t o p i t c h / t h e m up f r o m t h e b l o o d y f i s h h o l d y o u know, up t o t h e d e c k . F r o m t h e d e c k t h e y w e n t r i g h t up t o t h e w h a r f . We u s e d t o do t h a t t o o . I n t h e f a l l t h a t was h a r d w o r k y o u know — d o g s a l m o n . I d o n ' t know where t h e y w e re g e t t i n g t hem. E v e r y now and t h e n a b i g l o a d w o u l d g e t t o V a n c o u v e r C a n n e r y . 79 Q u e s t i o n : Y o u m e n t i o n e d a b o u t m a k i n g n e t s . How was t h a t d o n e ? T h i s was b e f o r e my t i m e . The o l d e r p e o p l e u s e d t o do t h a t y o u know. I c a n ' t r e c a l l , I was r e a d i n g a b o u t i t m y s e l f . T h e y f u r n i s h t h e m w i t h t h e t w i n e . My g r a n d f a t h e r was t e l l i n g me a l l a b o u t i t a n d V i c G u e r i n ' s m o t h e r . Some- t i m e s t h e y n e v e r come home a f t e r f i s h i n g s e a s o n y o u know. T h e r e was c a n n e r i e s a l l o v e r t h e m a i n r i v e r . T h e y s t a y r i g h t t h e r e a n d t h e y s t a r t m a k i n g n e t s . A l l n e e d l e w o r k y o u know. I d i d n ' t g e t t o f i n d o u t how much t h e y w e r e m a k i n g , b u t I g u e s s t h e y w e r e m a k i n g a l±ving o u t o f i t . T h e y w e r e t h e r e a l l w i n t e r m a k i n g n e t s . When t h e y g e t t h r o u g h d o i n g t h a t , t h e y s t a r t p u t t i n g on t h e l i n e s f o r t h e f i s h e r m a n . I n mos t c a s e s , t h e y w e re w o r k i n g b y d a y — t h e f i s h e r m e n y o u know — a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t I l e a r n e d f r o m my g r a n d f a t h e r a n d t h e o l d guy I u s e d t o f i s h w i t h . T h e y ' d g i v e them $3 a d a y e a c h . Two men t o a c r e w , t h a t ' s $6 a d a y . F o r a w h i l e t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g i t c h e a p e r t h a n t h a t . I d i d n ' t g e t t o f i n d o u t . B u t my g r a n d f a t h e r s a i d t h e mos t t h e y g o t b e f o r e t h e y s t a r t e d c o n t r a c t i n g b y p i e c e was $3 a d a y . They f u r n i s h e d t h e i r n e t an d b o a t a n d t h e y d i d t h a t , l i v i n g was so damn c h e a p i n t h e m d a y s I g u e s s . W e l l , y o u h a d t o w o r k t o s u r v i v e I g u e s s . . T h e y d i d a l o t o f h a n d made n e t s . T h e y w e r e p a i d b y t h e p o u n d a c c o r d i n g t o my g r a n d f a t h e r — so much f o r e a c h p o u n d o f t w i n e y o u m a t c h e d i n t o a n e t . I d o n ' t know how much t h e y w e r e m a k i n g . Some o f them p r e t t y f a s t ; some o f them d i d w e l l a c c o r d i n g t o my g r a n d f a t h e r , some d i d n ' t . T h e y s a y V i c G u e r i n ' s m o t h e r was f a s t m a k i n g n e t s . T h a t ' s a b o u t t h e t a i l e n d o f n e t m a k i n g t h e n y o u know. S t a r t e d g e t t i n g f a c t o r y made n e t s s h i p p e d h e r e t h e n . I t r i e d o n c e j u s t f o r t h e f u n o f i t . I d i d n ' t make a v e r y l o n g n e t , a b o u t t h i r t y f a t h o m s was e n o u g h f o r me. My h a n d s w e r e a l l c u t up. I u s e d t o do t h a t j u s t f o r t h e f u n o f i t i n my s p a r e t i m e f i s h i n g . M i k e W i l s o n d i d t h a t t o o , o n c e . I u s e d t o h e l p h i m when I was v i s i t i n g o v e r t h e r e . S h o u l d h a v e h a d a m o v i e c a m e r a t h e way t h i n g s w e r e g o i n g i n them d a y s y o u know. How t h e p e o p l e f i s h e d y o u know, s a i l e d . I u s e d t o go down t o t h e w h a r f a n d w a t c h t h e m when t h e y ' d s a i l u p. When i t was b l o w i n g s a y l i k e i t i s t o d a y , i t was a g o o d d a y f o r t h e f i s h e r m e n . P i c k up a n d s a i l u p , p i c k up a n d s a i l u p. When t h e r e ' s no w i n d y o u ' r e d o n e . Y o u c o u l d s e e a w h o l e b u n c h o f b l o o d y m a s t s c o m i n g up when t h e y g e t t o w e d up y o u know. The t u g b o a t w o u l d p i c k them up down t h e mouth o f t h e r i v e r a n d t o w them up. Q u e s t i o n : D i d y o u h a v e a w h a r f down h e r e — a t Musqueam? No, C e l t i c was t h e n e a r e s t p l a c e o v e r h e r e , y o u know. T h e s e p e o p l e u s e d t o b r i n g t h e i r b o a t s i n t o t h e s l o u g h h e r e , b e f o r e t h e y d i v e r t e d t h e s l o u g h t h e r e . Y e a h , b o a t s a l l i n t h e s l o u g h , t i e d u p. I u s e d t o b r i n g my b o a t home e v e r y y e a r f o r a w h i l e , t i l l I s t a r t e d l o s i n g t h i n g s o u t o f i t . I 80 k e p t i t i n S t e v e s t o n a f t e r . Some o f them g u y s a r e c r a z y y o u know, u n t i e t h e r o p e , s t e a l t h e r o p e . Y o u r b o a t i s d a n g l i n g t h e r e . P r e t t y s o o n i t ' s o n t h e b a n k a n d t i p s o v e r . M i n e t i p p e d o v e r t h r e e , f o u r t i m e s a n d I t h o u g h t i t was e n o u g h . I l e f t i t i n S t e v e s t o n a f t e r . E v e r y t i m e t h a t t h i n g t i p s o v e r i t c o s t s y o u a c o u p l e h u n d r e d d o l l a r s t o g e t g o i n g y o u know. B a t t e r i e s a n d e v e r y t h i n g g e t r u i n e d . T h e r e w e r e a l o t o f b o a t s f o r a w h i l e down t h e r e . S a i l b o a t s when I was a k i d , y o u know. I u s e d t o s e e t hem t i e d a r o u n d t h e f l a t s h e r e , a n c h o r e d f o r t h e w i n t e r a f t e r t h e y g e t t h r o u g h f i s h i n g . E a c h f a m i l y h a d one o r two o r t h r e e b o a t s . T h a t ' s a l l t h e y d i d when t h e y w e r e f i s h i n g . W e l l , t h e y s t a r t e d t o l o g t o w a r d s t h e e n d , t h a t ' s j u s t a b o u t t h e t i m e I was g o i n g t o s c h o o l . T h e y s t a r t e d t o l o g a r o u n d t h e r e s e r v e f o r a w h i l e . T h i n g s s t a r t e d t o p i c k up f o r them, I g u e s s . J o h n Cook d i d w e l l t h e r e , one o p e n i n g i n P o r t K e l l s . J o h n Cook g o t f i v e - s i x h u n d r e d one o p e n i n g . W i l l a r d . . . I u s e d t o go i n t o P o r t K e l l s . I was t h e f i r s t one s t a r t e d w i t h t h e m K a t z i e b o y s . P r e t t y s o o n e v e r y b o d y s t a r t e d t o go up t h e r e . T h a t ' s a f u n n y p l a c e y o u know, them g u y s up t h e r e i n P o r t K e l l s S l o u g h . E v e r y b o d y h a d a s p o t . T h e y ' d go a n d p u t t h e i r b u o y s a l l a l o n g t h e r e o n t h e s i d e t h e r e . T h e y p u t t h e i r b u o y o r f l a g t h e r e , t h a t ' s h i s s p o t . T h e n he g o e s home an d comes o u t o n t h e o p e n i n g Monday m o r n i n g . Y a u c a n ' t i n t e r f e r e w i t h t h a t . T h e y g e t mad a t y o u i f y o u ' r e t h e r e . I d i d n ' t know t h a t u n t i l J o e P i e r r e t o l d me y o u know. He was t h e one who b r o u g h t me t h e r e . I h a d t o t h r o w b e h i n d h i m — I d i d n ' t h a v e no s p o t , I u s e d t o j u s t go up t h e r e . I d i d p r e t t y w e l l t h e r e f o r a w h i l e . When I q u i t I s t a r t e d f i s h i n g D o u g l a s I s l a n d . Too much t r o u b l e t h e r e ( P o r t K e l l s ) c l a i m i n g y o u r s p o t . Then a f t e r t h e f i r s t d r i f t w e l l i t ' s f r e e , y o u c a n t h r o w a n y w h e r e a t a l l . B u t t h e y go and c l a i m a s p o t f o r t h e o p e n i n g Monday m o r n i n g on t h e d a y b e f o r e . P u t t h e i r b u o y t h e r e o n a boom o r w h e r e v e r t h e y ' r e g o i n g t o s t a r t f r o m . Y o u c a n ' t i n t e r f e r e . W e l l , I remember J o h n a n d W i l l a r d d o i n g g ood t h e r e one o p e n i n g . The m o s t I g o t o u t o f t h e r e was a b o u t two h u n d r e d i n P o r t K e l l s S l o u g h . B u t y o u f i s h c o n t i n u o u s l y t h e w h o l e d a y a n d i t b u i l d s up q u i t e a b i t . A f t e r t h e d a y ' s o v e r w e l l , t h e r e ' s no more. Once I remember we s t o o d up — t h a t ' s when t h e J a p a n e s e f i r s t come b a c k I g u e s s , t h e r e was a f e w J a p a n e s e b o a t s up D o u g l a s I s l a n d — i t was g ood f o r a b o u t t h r e e , f o u r d a y s . The w h o l e week we w e r e t h e r e a n y w a y s . 81 O n l y a few d i r e c t q u e s t i o n s w e r e r e q u i r e d b e f o r e G r a n d f a t h e r was a b l e t o c a r r y t h e r e c o r d i n g f a i r l y w e l l on h i s own. The k n o w l e d g e and s k i l l n e c e s s a r y t o be a s u c c e s s f u l f i s h e r m a n i s a p p a r e n t i n h i s e m p h a s i s on l e a r n i n g a b o r i g i n a l f i s h i n g s i t e s , a s w e l l as e x p e r i m e n t i n g w i t h new a r e a s , m e t h o d s and e q u i p m e n t . I t i s a l s o e v i d e n t t h a t he made i t h i s b u s i n e s s t o know a b o u t f i s h c y c l e s , f i s h movements, a n d t i d e s . He c a r r i e s i n h i s m i n d and r e l a t e d s u c h i n f o r m a t i o n t o e a r n i n g s , g o o d and b a d f i s h i n g y e a r s , s t r i k e s , o r who was f i s h i n g . The e m p h a s i s on f a m i l y i n v o l v e m e n t and d e p e n d e n c e on f i s h i n g m ust n o t be o v e r l o o k e d . E d d e s c r i b e s how c h i l d r e n l e a r n e d and h e l p e d w i t h w o r k . T h e y g a i n e d c o n f i d e n c e and e x p e r i e n c e , l e a r n e d t o c o o p e r a t e a n d assume r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s w i t h i n t h e f a m i l y . He l e a r n e d f r o m h i s g r a n d u n c l e , a n d t a u g h t h i s s o n s i n t u r n . The l i f e s t y l e , w o r k i n g and l i v i n g c o n d i t i o n s a s s o c i a t e d w i t h f i s h i n g a r e s e e n i n i n c i d e n t s b o t h on a n d o f f t h e f i s h i n g g r o u n d s . C h anges i n t h e i n d u s t r y h a v e b e e n m e n t i o n e d a l s o , s p e c i f i c a l l y m e c h a n i z a t i o n i n c a n n e r i e s l e a d i n g t o a d e c r e a s e i n number, and a d v a n c e s i n b o a t s and e q u i p m e n t r e q u i r i n g g r e a t e r i n v e s t m e n t , c h a n g e s i n m a i n t e n a n c e o r o p e r a t i o n . T h e s e f a c t o r s a l o n g w i t h f i s h e r i e s c o n t r o l s h a v e s i g n i f i c a n t l y a l t e r e d t h e o r i g i n a l N a t i v e i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h e f i s h i n g i n d u s t r y . A s i g n i f i c a n t r e d u c t i o n i n t h e number o f w o r k e r s and f i s h e r m e n c a n b e d i r e c t l y a t t r i b u t e d t o a d v a n c e s i n c a n n e r y t e c h n o l o g y and t h e s i z e a nd e f f i c i e n c y o f b o a t s . I n c r e a s e d n o n - I n d i a n c o m p e t i t o r s w i t h r e a d y c a p i t a l h a v e b e e n b e t t e r 82 s u i t e d t o cope w i t h i n c r e a s e d e x p e n s e s i n o w n i n g , o p e r a t i n g , and e q u i p p i n g f i s h b o a t s o f e v e r i n c r e a s i n g s i z e , a n d a l s o t o t r a v e l t o t h e more p r o d u c t i v e f i s h i n g a r e a s . Many l o c a l , w e l l known a r e a s h a v e b e e n c l o s e d o f f t o t h e N a t i v e f i s h e r m e n b y D e p a r t m e n t o f F i s h e r i e s r e g u l a t i o n s o r h a v e b e e n d e p l e t e d o f f i s h t h r o u g h o v e r f i s h i n g a nd i n d u s t r y . The c a p a c i t y o r n e c e s s i t y f o r h a r d w o r k a n d i t s r e w a r d s h a s become e v i d e n t . The t o n e o f t h e t e x t s u g g e s t s s e l f c o n f i d e n c e and a d a p t i v e n e s s t o c h a n g i n g s o c i a l a n d e c o n o m i c c o n d i t i o n s . H i s s e n s e o f humor i s a l s o r e v e a l e d h e r e , a nd i n s e v e r a l p l a c e s t h r o u g h o u t t h e t e x t . By t h e e n d o f t h i s s e s s i o n b o t h o f u s w e r e t e m p o r a r i l y q u i t e d r a i n e d o f i d e a s . N e i t h e r o f us h a d d e f i n i t e c o n c e p t s f o r c o n t i n u a t i o n o r s u m m a t i o n . We h a d become o v e r w h e l m e d b y t h e v o l u m e o f d a t a a nd i t s d i v e r s i t y . T h e r e was d i f f i c u l t y c o m pre- h e n d i n g , and r e m e m b e r i n g , w h a t h a d b e e n i n c l u d e d o r w h e r e i n f o r m a t i o n was l a c k i n g . G r a n d f a t h e r ' s r e c a l l seemed t e m p o r a r i l y e x h a u s t e d . Some means o f o r d e r i n g and a s s e s s i n g i n f o r m a t i o n h a d t o be e s t a b l i s h e d b e f o r e any t h o u g h t c o u l d be g i v e n t o c o n t i n u i n g . G r a n d f a t h e r was b e g i n n i n g t o f e e l f r u s t r a t e d . He knew h e h a d l e f t o u t p e r t i n e n t i n f o r m a t i o n . H i s r e a c t i o n was t o c o n s t r u c t i v e l y c r i t i c i z e t h e m e t h o d . I n h i s o p i n i o n we s h o u l d h a v e s a t down t o g e t h e r a nd w r i t t e n an a n n o t a t e d o u t l i n e b e f o r e t a p e r e c o r d i n g was i n i t i a t e d . G r a n d f a t h e r h i m s e l f s t a t e s he s h o u l d make n o t e s t o remember f a c t s a n d d e t a i l s when he r e f e r s t o s p e c i f i c i n c i d e n t s , e v e n t s , a nd o u t c o m e s . 83 As t h e t a p e t r a n s c r i p t s became a v a i l a b l e , c o p i e s o f e a c h t a p e w e r e p r e s e n t e d t o b o t h g r a n d p a r e n t s , i n o r d e r t o show t h e m w h a t t h e y h a d a c c o m p l i s h e d i n r e c o r d i n g a n d I i n i n t e r v i e w i n g a n d t r a n s c r i b i n g . I t h o u g h t t h i s w o u l d a l s o e n c o u r a g e t h e m t o r e a d t h e d a t a o v e r and s o a s s i s t me i n v e r i f y i n g t r a n s c r i p t i o n , a n d p o s s i b l y e n c o u r a g e b o t h o f t hem t o o f f e r a d d i t i o n a l i n f o r m a t i o n . D i s c u s s i o n o f G r a n d f a t h e r ' s s u g g e s t i o n s w i t h my a d v i s o r p r o d u c e d t w o s o l u t i o n s . F i r s t , an i n d e x o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t s was b e g u n . L i s t i n g s o f t h e c o n t e n t w e r e r e f e r e n c e s w h i c h I c o n - s i d e r e d r e l a t e d t o t h e r e s e a r c h a i m s . T h i s w o u l d b e an a i d t o me i n r e f e r r i n g b a c k t o t h e t e x t s t o l o c a t e a n d c l a r i f y r e l a t e d d a t a . I t was n o t i n t e n d e d t o b e a c o m p l e t e i n d e x o r t o be an i n t e g r a l p a r t o f t h e w r i t t e n a n a l y s i s . The s e c o n d d e v i c e p r o v e d t o be a k e y f a c t o r i n c o m p l e t i n g t h e r e s e a r c h . A d e t a i l e d y e a r by y e a r c h r o n o l o g y o f b o t h g r a n d p a r e n t s ' w o r k h i s t o r y was d r a w n up. The t r a n s c r i p t s w e r e c l o s e l y a n a l y z e d w i t h a l l r e l e v a n t w o r k h i s t o r y d a t a t r a n s f e r r e d i n a b b r e v i a t e d f o r m t o t h e p r e - l i m i n a r y c h r o n o l o g i e s . (See Work H i s t o r y C h r o n o l o g i e s , A p p e n d i c e s A l ' V G r a n d m o t h e r ' s c h r o n o l o g y o f c o u r s e was l i m i t e d s i n c e o n l y one t a p e h a d b e e n c o l l e c t e d s o f a r . On h e r s , I b e g a n f i l l i n g i n b i r t h d a t e s o f c h i l d r e n b y r e f e r r i n g t o t h e l i s t o f r e g i s t e r e d Musqueam Band members, and a p r e v i o u s l y r e c o r d e d g e n e a l o g y . G r a n d f a t h e r ' s c h r o n o l o g y h a d a r e a s w i t h f a i r l y c o m p l e t e i n f o r - m a t i o n w h i c h b e g a n t o f o r m s e q u e n c e s . A r e a s o f s e v e r a l y e a r s w i t h n o d o c u m e n t a t i o n w e r e i m m e d i a t e l y a p p a r e n t . The n e x t s t a g e o b v i o u s l y w o u l d be t o f i l l t h e s e i n f o r m a t i o n b l a n k s as s y s t e m - m a t i c a l l y a s p o s s i b l e t h r o u g h q u e s t i o n i n g . 84 3.5 Tape 27 Rose S p a r r o w May 2 9 , 1975 G r a n d m o t h e r was a s k e d a few d a y s b e f o r e t h e f o l l o w i n g i n t e r v i e w i f s h e c o u l d be p r e p a r e d t o t e l l more a b o u t t h e w o r k s h e h a d done i n h e r l i f e , o r t h e j o b s s h e h a d h a d . No o t h e r d i r e c t i v e s w e r e g i v e n , e x c e p t t h a t I s u g g e s t e d s h e t r y r e m e m b e r i n g f r o m h e r e a r l y l i f e t o t h e p r e s e n t . B u i l d i n g on e x p e r i e n c e w i t h E d , o u r m e t h o d h a d b e e n a d a p t e d a g a i n . W i t h t h e f r a m e w o r k o f a c h r o n o l o g y s e t u p , I i n t e n d e d t o a d d s p e c i f i c e v e n t s , d e s c r i p - t i o n a nd d e t a i l . I n p r e p a r i n g f o r t h i s i n t e r v i e w , c o n s i d e r a t i o n was g i v e n t o G r a n d m o t h e r ' s u n e a s i n e s s a b o u t d i r e c t q u e s t i o n i n g f o r s p e c i f i c i n f o r m a t i o n , a n d t o h e r a w a r e n e s s o f t h e t a p e r e c o r d e r . G r a n d m o t h e r was p r e p a r e d f o r t h i s s e s s i o n , and a s k e d t h a t we b e g i n as s o o n a s I a r r i v e d . W h i l e I was p r e p a r i n g t h e t a p e r e c o r d e r , s h e s t a r t e d w o r k i n g on an I n d i a n s w e a t e r a n d c o n t i n u e d k n i t t i n g t h r o u g h m o s t o f t h e i n t e r v i e w . H e r p o s i t i o n made l o c a t i n g t h e m i c r o p h o n e d i f f i c u l t . As a r e s u l t , a few o f t h e q u e s t i o n s a r e n o t w e l l r e c o r d e d a n d h a v e b e e n t a k e n f r o m n o t e s made b e f o r e t h e i n t e r v i e w , w i t h r e - w o r d i n g f o r t h e t r a n s c r i p t . G r a n d m o t h e r h a d e s t a b l i s h e d i n h e r m i n d w h a t s h e was g o i n g t o t e l l , s o I l e t h e r p r o c e e d o n h e r own. T h r o u g h t h e r e c o r d i n g I a t t e m p t e d t o r e l a t e t h e q u e s t i o n i n g t o w h a t s h e was t e l l i n g , t r y i n g t o m a i n t a i n some o r d e r i n h e r d a t a . Once s h e was a l i t t l e more r e l a x e d , q u e s t i o n i n g became more s p e c i f i c a n d r e l e v a n t t o a r e a s I h a d o u t l i n e d f o r m y s e l f b e f o r e t h e i n t e r v i e w . 85 I t seems a p a r t o f h e r commentary h a d b e e n i n f l u e n c e d b y t h e U B C I C ^ d e c i s i o n t o a c c e p t n o g o v e r n m e n t f u n d i n g . I was c u r i o u s t o d e t e r m i n e h e r r e a c t i o n s a n d w h a t s h e f e l t t h e i m p a c t w o u l d be f o r h e r s e l f a n d N a t i v e p e o p l e . She e x p r e s s e d h e r t h o u g h t s on t h i s m a t t e r w h i l e p r o v i d i n g h e r w o r k h i s t o r y d a t a . A n o t h e r t e c h n i q u e a p p l i e d a t t h i s t i m e , was q u e s t i o n i n g a b o u t p l a c e s o f r e s i d e n c e . , R e c a l l o f w h e r e s h e was l i v i n g a t a s p e c i f i c t i m e m i g h t e n a b l e an a s s o c i a t i o n b e t w e e n t y p e o f w o r k and t i m e . R a t i o n a l e s f o r m o v i n g m i g h t p o s s i b l y be d e t e r m i n e d as w e l l , a nd t h i s i n t u r n m i g h t be a s s o c i a t e d w i t h j o b s a n d w o r k . A b r i e f d i a l o g u e b e t w e e n b o t h g r a n d p a r e n t s was p r o m p t e d by a n e w s p a p e r a r t i c l e a nd p h o t o o f o l d M a r p o l e , an a r e a n e a r Musqueam. I h a d n o i n t e n t i o n o f u s i n g t h e p h o t o i n c o l l e c t i n g d a t a . I t was shown o n l y b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t i t w o u l d be i n t e r e s t i n g . S i n c e i t p r o d u c e d a r e s p o n s e w i t h h i s t o r i c a l r e f e r e n c e t h e d i a l o g u e was r e c o r d e d . E d was p r o m p t e d t o r e c a l l f a c t s a b o u t l i v i n g c o n d i t i o n s as t h e y u s e d t o b e . 5 UBCIC — U n i o n o f B. C. I n d i a n C h i e f s a n d r e a c h e d a g r e e m e n t a t i t s g e n e r a l a s s e m b l y i n l a t e A p r i l , 1975 n o t t o a c c e p t any f u r t h e r g o v e r n m e n t f u n d i n g a n d a d v i s e d a l l I n d i a n p e o p l e i n B. C. t o f o l l o w s u i t u n t i l t h e q u e s t i o n o f A b o r i g i n a l L a n d C l a i m s i s r e s o l v e d . 86 G r a n d m o t h e r was a l w a y s aware o f t h e t a p e r e c o r d e r d u r i n g i n t e r v i e w s e s s i o n s , a n d was a t t i m e s i n h i b i t e d b y i t . To e a s e h e r a p p r e h e n s i o n I a l l o w e d h e r t o c o n t r o l t h e m i c r o p h o n e a t t i m e s , o r u s e d t h e r e c o r d e r w i t h o u t a m i c r o p h o n e . I n b o t h c a s e s t h e q u a l i t y o f t h e r e c o r d i n g s was a f f e c t e d . On t h i s one t a p e i n p a r t i c u l a r , when s h e c o n t r o l l e d t h e m i c r o p h o n e , q u e s t i o n s o r t h e f i r s t few w o r d s o f s t a t e m e n t s w e r e n o t r e c o r d e d . V a r i a t i o n s i n v o l u m e and c l a r i t y w e r e a l s o n o t e d a t t i m e s , m a k i n g t r a n s c r i p t i o n o f t h e t a p e more d i f f i c u l t . O c c a s i o n a l l y , q u e s t i o n s w e re r e p e a t e d a f t e r t h e s t a t e m e n t h a d b e e n g i v e n . The b e s t r e c o r d i n g r e s u l t s w e r e o b t a i n e d when no m i c r o p h o n e was u s e d , r e l y i n g on t h e b u i l t i n m i c r o p h o n e o f t h e m a c h i n e . When t r a n s c r i p t i o n o f t h e t a p e s was c o m p l e t e d , i n f o r m a t i o n was t r a n s f e r r e d t o R o s e ' s c h r o n o l o g y as a c c u r a t e l y as p o s s i b l e . T h i s was d i f f i c u l t b e c a u s e o f a l a c k o f s p e c i f i c d a t e s . I n some a r e a s I p e n c i l l e d i n a s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s w i t h o u t r e f e r e n c e t o t i m e . A s s i s t a n c e f r o m G r a n d m o t h e r was r e q u i r e d t o c o r r e c t l y l o c a t e i n f o r m a t i o n . B u t e v e n w i t h o u t t h e d a t e s , w r i t i n g o f t h e s e q u e n c e s showed up a r e a s w h e r e f u r t h e r d e t a i l was r e q u i r e d . 87 Tape 27 Recorded: May 29, 1975 Mrs. Rose Sparrow EARLY LIFE HISTORY, WORK HISTORY This i s a l l my l i f e history I'm going to t e l l now. When I was a l i t t l e g i r l about three years o l d , my mother died. And um, my great grandparents took over, raised me. They were a l l of seventy or eighty years o l d then. Them days the b i d people never got no help from the government. My great grandmother was about seventy or eighty, she s t i l l went to town and washed clothes f o r the white people for her l i v i n g . That way she kept us a l i v e . There was no help from the government whatever for o l d age people or orphan ch i l d r e n . I was an orphan. My mother died but my father remarried, and I was l e f t with my great grandparents, for them to keep. We had hard times. Most of the times we ju s t barely get by by what she earns working out every day. My great grandfather, he goes on the canoe to set net to catch salmon. I used to go along, I quite remember. He used to have a l i t t l e place for me i n the bow i n the canoe and I'd lay there and f a l l asleep i n that canoe. Whatever he d i d he took me along i n t h i s canoe. By the evening he goes pick up h i s net, see i f there's any f i s h there and takes i t home. I never knew, l i k e other kids used to go i n the house and the meal would be prepared f o r them. 'Cause my granny was out working we'd ju s t grab whatever we could grab on the table and eat. That's the l i f e I went through. And as I was growing up, oh, I was about, oh, nine or ten years old before somebody come along and asked the o l d people why I wasn't i n school. But we were f a r out i n the ranch home that old people didn't know any better what to do about i t , you know. So they wanted to take me to Mission. But the old people wouldn't part with me because they raised me and they didn't want to l e t go. So I didn't get to go to school. When they b u i l t a school i n Chilliwack for the Indian childre n I was about nine or ten years old, maybe older before I got to school. I only reached Grade Three and the old people didn't want me to go back to school. They didn't believe i n i t . They said g i r l s go to school and they never learn nothing but bad things. So that's as far as I got. I followed other women that had chi l d r e n . My aunt, she had g i r l s . We a l l went to school together, but seems l i k e we a l l graduated ourselves together! She got to taking us out digging roots, whatever she thought was best. Taught us to s p l i t roots and make baskets. I t o l d that before. Whatever she did, pick b e r r i e s , we were there. (She) taught us how to preserve, how to pick and preserve our b e r r i e s . Everything l i k e that, and taught us how to work i n the farm. When we were able to work, we used to walk to t h i s farmer and work f o r maybe ten cents a day or ten cents an hour, I don't know what i t was. Anyways i t was very cheap. We didn't even know i f we got paid or not. But, that's the l i f e I went through. There was no way you could get help from anywhere. No, kept on l i k e that you know. When my granny would get home, then she managed to get hold of wool somehow and she'd spin the wool. She used to get me to card i t for her. I'd card wool t i l l I got t i r e d , and q u i t . Then she'd spin the wool, then she'd make socks. Then she taught me how to k n i t . So I t r i e d k n i t t i n g , then I managed to learn from her how to k n i t . Question; Was that a f t e r you went to school? I t was a f t e r , yeah, and before. We used to s i t down in the evenings, you know, and they teach me how to k n i t . I learned how to k n i t and make basket. That way we managed to get what we need, clothing or whatever i t was. Well, I don't think I have any more to t e l l about that. That was r e a l l y a sad story as fa r as the Indians were concerned. There was no help from the government whatever. Most of the old people you go see had nothing to eat. Not even a crumb of bread i n the house. My granny used to get home and she'd make bread or my grandfather bring f i s h and my granny would cut i t up and pass i t around to these people that had nothing to eat. See how bad i t was them days. The government got nothing to brag about. They did nothing for the Indians. I t ' s just now the people getting welfare. But how are they getting that? Through tax money. That's how they got t h i s welfare. But before that the government wouldn't step i n and help. But they s t e a l the lands from the people. That's a l l they did. There was land r i g h t through, an Indian Reserve where my mother comes from, they c a l l i t Shwayhala. The r a i l r o a d cuts r i g h t through. I wonder i f the Indians got something for that. The CNR went through that land. I don't think the Indians — and=they never ask permission or nothing. The old chief was too old , I don't think he knew any better. They j u s t cut through the land and that was i t . Question; Who was the Chief at that time? Chief Joe from KohKwaplat. 7 Yeah, that's a l l they did was s t e a l from the Indians but never made a move to come and see how they were l i v i n g . No way they'd come near the 6^Now Indian Reserve 7, l i s t e d as SKwala or Squi-a-ala. 7 Now Indian Reserve 6, l i s t e d as koquapilt or Kw awkw aw ap i 11. 89 Indian people — never. So that's a l l I can remember so f a r as that l i f e I went through. Hardship. Not only f o r me but the older people, and many other orphan childr e n — starving. Never got no help from anybody. Question: Could you t e l l me your grandfather's name? f v His Indian name or what? His Indian name was Exwamtan., That's the one Eddy got. My great grandmother's name was K w e l a s t e n a i but her English name was Mary. The o l d man was Charlie KohK waplat. They used to c a l l him Charlie KohK waplat. That's the name of the reserve. Question: Were you l i v i n g there (at KohK waplat)? That's where I was l i v i n g . They brought me up from three years o l d there at that KohK waplat Reserve, i n a l i t t l e ranch home. Question: Do you remember where your grandmother would go out to work? She went to work, oh, she had to walk for about two, three miles from the house to Chilliwack. The l i t t l e town there. But I didn't r e a l l y know, but she was ju s t going every day from house to house, that I remember. Question: Do you r e c a l l anyone she worked for? The ones she worked for? The only one, old people I remember i s Mr. Jackson. His house i s s t i l l there, but the re s t I kind of forgot. You know I think of i t when I go up there and see. Is that a l l ? Question: (Did you l i v e i n Chilliwack when you were married?)" A f t e r I l e f t home, I got married, and I went back to v i s i t my great grandparents because they were very o l d . I got there and the o l d man was sick i n bed and the old lady was j u s t about getting around. They were both too old and sick. So I stayed there. When I got there, the old lady, my great grandmother, she had a bin where they used to keep the f l o u r . And they run out of f l o u r and everything, and there she was t r y i n g to scrape up the f l o u r that dropped, that was scattered i n the bottom of t h i s crock, whatever i t was, to make bread to eat. They had nothing, and nobody On t h i s tape some questions are not on tape or are very d i f f i c u l t to hear on the tape — e s p e c i a l l y those i n parentheses therefore some are worded according to my notes and questions made before the taping. 90 would dare go and see how they were i n that reserve. Nobody, Chief or anybody never bothered. They wouldn't even miss them. But they were sick i n bed, had nothing to eat. Question; Did you f i s h i n the r i v e r ? Yeah, when my great grandfather took me we went out to the Fraser River. That's where he used to set net. And he used to set sturgeon l i n e s too, and get sturgeon. He used to get those r e a l big ones. That was t h e i r l i v i n g . Sometimes they'd dry i t . They f i l l e t and dry i t up f o r the winter. Question: Was any of that f i s h sold? No, they weren't allowed to s e l l anything. Yeah, I used to wonder why they weren't allowed to s e l l any f i s h . Because i f you s e l l f i s h you go to j a i l . But why i s i t they wouldn't come give them money for food or anything l i k e that. I wonder how the Indian Department and the Indian f i s h e r i e s think they'd l i v e on i f they didn't get any cash. They couldn't buy anything because they weren't allowed to s e l l any f i s h . And they were too old to work. Question; Did you do any f i s h i n g yourself? I d i d go out myself a f t e r because my husband, Ed Sparrow was up north f i s h i n g . I went up there (KohK^aplat) and stayed with them when I heard they were sic k . So I used to go out and set net myself. Get on the canoe and go set my net. I used to get f i s h to eat and bring i t home. I had two children then, Myrtle and Eddy. I used to j u s t leave them home with the o l d man you know, the o l d people. That way we get f i s h to eat. Question; Did your great grandparents do any gardening to r a i s e t h e i r own food? Oh yeah. As old as they were my great grandfather gardened. Plant potatoes, vegetables, everything l i k e that. He used to get his own wood. They wouldn't give him no wood. He was so o l d , he must have been about eighty or ninety. He used to go and cut wood i n the bush. Wood that's not too heavy to cut down, b i r c h wood and alder. And then he'd pack i t down mind you, one at a time, and then he'd cut i t up with a l i t t l e hand saw. They wouldn't bring o l d people wood because they had no money. You gotta buy the wood before you get i t . But he d i d that a l l h i s l i f e t i l l he was barely moving around. Ques :tlon; Were you the only one who was helping them? Well, I was the only one that got there and stayed with them towards the end, yeah. Because they brought me up, so me and Dad (Ed Sparrow) when he got home he went up 91 and stayed up. We stayed up there with them about seven years t i l l my great grandmother died, and then my great grandfather died a f t e r . Question: Do you remember when i t was they died? I don't remember the dates. I think about that time Myrtle must have been about two years and she's f i f t y - s i x or something. That's a long time ago. Myrtle must have been about two or three, three years o l d I'd say. Yeah, that's a long time ago. Question: Were you expected to do any work while you were at school? We never was taught how to do any kind of homework or cooking or anything when we were i n school. Nothing at a l l , j u s t reading and arithmetic, yeah that was a l l . Question: (Did you or your great grandparents do any gardening while you were up at Chilliwack?) They made t h e i r own gardens, had everything to eat as f a r as they were concerned about gardening. But what l i t t l e she (great grandmother) earned she bought l a r d or tea or sugar and a l l that you know, and coffee and things l i k e that. That's about a l l we could a f f o r d to buy, nothing e l s e . Question: Was clothing bought with those earnings? No, we couldn't even afford to buy clothes. She used to get cloth i n g from the white people she was working fo r . I didn't know what i t was to wear new shoes or a new dress, nothing l i k e that. We used to get the clothing from the white people. They used to give i t to her, the people she worked for give her clothing for her and her husband. Anything they didn't l i k e they'd give i t to her. That's how we were clothed. We couldn't buy i t no way. Sometimes I used to wear shoes ten times bigger than my feet. Anything we could get a hold of you know. That's how poor the Indians were. Not only us, the whole v a l l e y up there get used cloth i n g from the white people for t h e i r c h i l d r e n to go to school. They used to make baskets, the mothers, and trade i n f o r clothes for t h e i r children so they'd have clothes to go to school i n the day school they had there. Question: Can you r e c a l l where the houses you have l i v e d i n are located? After we were married we l i v e d here i n Musqueam. Then we went back home, we went to Chilliwack. I used to c a l l i t my home yet you know. So we stayed there, that's the time I was t e l l i n g you about, seven years, huh, Dad (Ed Sparrow) we stayed up there?> 'Cause that's the only place he got a job. There's no job here. This place was a r e a l l y 92 bad place. You couldn't get work anywhere! The people here, just whoever i s willing to cut cord wood, they're the only ones that made a l i t t l e money for their l i v i n g here. But he went up Chilliwack and he got on a logging camp. That's how we stayed up there. And for seven years then we came back here again to l i v e . We've been back and forth camping a l l over. Fishing grounds where he was fishing. In Brunswick Cannery, we were there just below Ladner, we were there I don't know how many years. But we come home in the winter. And then we got to Canoe Pass, and we stayed there too. And from there B. C. Packers buil t him a l i t t l e shack outside at Westham Island. The B. C. Packers buil t him (Ed Sparrow) that shack outside the dyke there behind Mike's (Mike Wilson) place. That was bui l t for us, so we stayed there for I don't know how many years. But we used to come home in the winter, but during the fishing season we'd stay there because that was the handiest place for him to fi s h . Question: What kinds of work were you able to find at Chilliwack? Me, well really I didn't do much. After I had my children I couldn't leave them. There was no work but weeding in the gardens you know. I was picking strawberries there that's a l l . But I really just stayed home, looked after my children and made baskets while I was home and cook for him. (Ed) Question: Were you collecting cascara bark or anything like that? Not here (Musqueam), no, no. Up Chilliwack he did that for awhile. We used to go out, a l l of us. Even my great grandparents; that's the only way they made their l i v i n g too was to go pick cascara bark. They were old, they used to just drag around and they go peel this. The old man used to knock i t down, they pack i t home, dry i t and s e l l i t . Question: Did you do that as well while you were staying at Chilliwack? Oh yeah, we went and do the same me and Dad and we a l l just helped one another. That's the only way they made the money, l i t t l e spending money. Not much. If you got $5, boy, you thought you were rich them days. Yeah, because you never see money coming in anywhere. Indians never had no jobs. They wouldn't give them no job! No way! The white people so prejudiced they wouldn't even look at you i f you try to go look for a job. That's the way they were. They're s t i l l the same I think. Question: Where did you s e l l the bark? 93 A wholesaler used to buy i t i n town somewhere. They used to send i t to Vancouver, I guess. Question; In Chilliwack (KohK waplat) did you and Ed l i v e with your great grandparents? Oh yeah, we had to, yeah. We l i v e d with them because we j u s t went up there to stay with them to help them out a l i t t l e b i t . But we used to move to a l i t t l e logging camp. When they were strong yet, when they were able to look a f t e r themselves, get wood i n summer we used to move to a l i t t l e logging camp. They used to have shacks there for t h e i r people i n Queens Island they c a l l i t . I t ' s an i s l a n d way out across the r i v e r . They had shacks for a l l the working men there, Indians, and they take t h e i r families and they l i v e there during the summer you know. We used to go l i v e there, l i v e d i n shacks there too. Question; Was there anything that you could do there i n the logging camp? Well, i t ' s where we used to dig roots. A l l the women, not only me go out and dig roots and come down and s p l i t them. A l l s i t outside and make baskets. Everyone did that. And I was saying that's the only way they got t h e i r c l o t h i n g f o r themselves and t h e i r c h i l d r e n . Question: Did you s e l l any of the baskets you made? Oh yeah, we trade i t i n for clothes. We never ask cash. Some way or another we didn't. I don't know i f we were a f r a i d to ask for money or what. But we ju s t ask for clothes because we needed them, badly. We couldn't afford to buy i t from a store, no way. Question: (Did you work up at Skeena while Ed was f i s h i n g there?) Myrtle i s the oldest, and she must have been about twelve years o l d . Then Dad used to go up Skeena to f i s h , so I thought I better go along. He didn't want me to go but I wanted to go. And I think I had Wil l a r d , Johnny, yeah and Myrtle. I had three ch i l d r e n . So Myrtle babysit and I worked i n the cannery. Prom then on we went up every year. Travel on the gas boat to get to Skeena from here. And then I worked and Myrtle babysit you know. But Lyle was born up there at Skeena River. I worked r i g h t up to the l a s t hour and went home. And that night Lyle was born, i n Skeena River. He was born j u s t before 12:00 and I l e f t work, oh about 8:00 I guess. I used to work overtime there. I went home about that time and he was born before 12:00. I stayed home ju s t a week, and I went back to work again. Myrtle babysit for Lyle when he was a l i t t l e baby. A l l I had to do was bathe him i n the morning. She took over looking a f t e r him. Change him, 94 give him bott l e — no, I used to run home and feed him, breastfed. They used to allow me to do that because we weren't f a r from the cannery. Did that for years. Most of my kids were born here. Two were born i n Chilliwack. Myrtle and Ronny born up Chilliwack, your Dad. But I wasn't working yet at that time. But the r e s t of the kids were a l l born at Musqueam, i n the h o s p i t a l . Myrtle was born at home, Lyle was born i n a cannery shack. Ronny was born at h o s p i t a l . Oh, Willard was born at home, w i l l a r d was born i n Chilliwack. I was up there, Dad went up Skeena River and I stayed with my great grandfather. He was alone then. That's when my great grandmother died so I stayed up there with him and Willard was born up there. Not i n a hosp i t a l but at home. Question; What jobs d i d you do i n the cannery at Skeena? Worked i n the cannery washing salmon. Sometimes they make us hand f i l l , everything l i k e that. Question; Was anyone else from Musqueam working up there i n cannery? Not too much. I t was the Wilsons from Ladner. Emma and Mike, a l l the Wilsons used to go up there. Hardly anybody from here, they didn't go up. Question: Did you work i n canneries at other places? When we qui t going up Skeena I started i n Imperial i n Steveston, and I worked seventeen years there at the Imperial plant. Question: You stayed there, did you? Yeah, stayed there. Seventeen years, I was r e t i r e d when I was s i x t y - s i x . Kind of cheated on my age! I was a l l around there. I was experienced — even to the l a s t year they had me working on the l i n e checking the bad cans and the good cans you know. Can used to come through the l i n e there, through the machine getting, put l i d s on. And we pick them up before they put the l i d s on. There used to be two hundred cans a minute and I had to watch that. Four of us, we pick i t and we f i l l i t and pick i t and we put i t back. I was s t i l l on that on my l a s t year, I was s i x t y - s i x years old . You had to be f a s t and know how to handle the f i s h . Question: You did quite a few d i f f e r e n t jobs then? Oh everything. I even worked i n the fresh f i s h f o r awhile o f f and on. And during the winter we d i d tuna a l l winter from September f i f t e e n t h up t i l l May, we did the tuna a l l winter. But i n between that i s when we used to get 95 oysters and clams to do too. They used to divide us up, experienced ones with your non-experienced. That's the only way they could do the work there, clams and everything, divide the women up. Question; Did you work a l l year? A l l year round. I worked Imperial. Not r i g h t from the s t a r t , but, oh, about f i v e years I worked steady. But I never got r i c h j u s t the same. I j u s t — you know, well f i s h i n g wasn't so good, i t was bad. My kids were going to school, I buy them clothes. The government didn't help us. Buy the kids clothes to go to school and a l l that you know. The wages were cheap at f i r s t . I t was just the l a s t two years I worked that the wages come up. Prom the f i r s t time I worked I used to get twenty-five cents an hour for years. Then t h i r t y cents, then t h i r t y - f i v e . We thought we was getting a l o t of money when used to get t h i r t y - f i v e cents r a i s e i n Imperial Cannery here an hour. Question: How long did you work i n a day? We worked eight hours and overtime i f the f i s h , salmon summertime, salmon we worked overtime. But I don't know i f we got overtime money at that time. That was before the union stepped i n . We got a l i t t l e more a f t e r . Question: Where were your children while you were working? Well, we had to send our kids to North Vancouver to the boarding school. That's the boys. Every two weeks we'd take them home on the weekends. Bring them back again. But we furnished t h e i r clothing. The government didn't help. Question: (Was Ed working at Chilliwack also?) Yes, he was working but i n the wintertime sometimes i t gets so cold you can't work (logging). But he was trapping and getting muskrats, and he'd bring i t home. I'd skin the muskrats and he'd go out and look at his t r a p l i n e again while I'm skinning them, putting them on boards to dry. Question: Was he working on the t r a p l i n e by himself up i n Chilliwack? Yes, uhuh. He used to go a l l over trapping. Question: Did you go hop picking while you were at Chilliwack? Oh yeah. We went hop picking. I picked hops every day. Even when the old people were a l i v e yet we used to a l l go together and camp there, stay there i n the camping grounds. Hulbert's camp i n Sardis. We used to pick hops every day from early i n the morning. Take my baby up there too. And we'd 96 take a lunch and eat up there, we never come home. Pick a l l day t i l l j u s t about dark then we'd come home. That's during the hop picking. Question: Was t h i s i n the l a t e summer? In September. Last week of August I think and a l l of September before they f i n i s h I think. 'Cause they used to a l l pick by hand. Question t Was t h i s while Ed was i n the logging camps? No, he worked i n the hop yard too. He used to work i n the k i l n drying hops. I picked. Yeah, we used to get a d o l l a r a box, big box maybe hundred pounds. We'd get a d o l l a r to f i l l that, a big box of hops! Question; Did you go with other people from Chilliwack? Oh, people from a l l over were there at the hop yard. From Pemberton, a l l over the place. Oh, a l o t of people from a l l over the place. We used to l i v e there during the hop picking time. Question; Did you enjoy the time? Oh yeah, good times on weekends you know. They play l a h a l on the weekends, you know. There wasn't much drinking them days. I t would be a strange thing to see a man drunk you know. Never see them Indians drinking them days, never. If you went to a dance you never see anybody drunk i n a dance. I f they see one happen to come i n they throw him out. 'Cause Indians never drink that much i n my days. They never drink or smoke. You never see a woman with a cigarette i n her hand, nothing. I t would be a disgrace i f she drank, and very few men drink. Question: Did you go to Skeena on the boat with Ed? Well, we went up by gas boat but when I started working steady they paid my fare — the Company did, B. C. Packers paid our fare to go up there and back. That's the women that's working up there. Question: How di d you f i n d your job at Skeena? How did I f i n d a job? Well, I j u s t went up with Dad, (Ed Sparrow), and there's so much work anybody can get on. Any woman who i s able to work can get on and work i n the cannery. I t wasn't l i k e now, you have to go by the union. You have to wait for your chance. Not them days. Soon as you get there they put you on to work i f you went i n the cannery. They t e l l you come on and work. You didn't have to wait another hour. Soon as you get there you go and see the boss, they t e l l you to go to work. Question; You worked r i g h t through the season? 97 Yeah, r i g h t through the season. Que sti o n ; The company provided you with a house too? Oh yeah. They had o l d shacks there. Well, every cannery had camps fo r working people. Que s t i o n : Which camp did you work at i n Skeena? Claxton Cannery. That was the biggest cannery i n Claxton. They had the Aiyansh there, K i t k a t l a , Metlakatla, Port Simpson, Hartley Bays and Greenville, Hazelton. A l l them people were at that cannery, and i t was the biggest camp there. So that's why I know a l o t of them people up north. Each group had t h e i r own town l i k e t h e i r own camp was separated, you know. I t ' s been l i k e that I guess for years. They had a church there and a big hotel l i k e where the b i g businessmen sleep i n there you know. They had an old church there and there was an Indian p r i n c i p a l there at that time. He was from Nass River. What was his name — Pierce or something l i k e that. Forgot his f i r s t name. Anyways he was an Indian preacher from Nass River. And they had a school there 'cause some people stayed there a l l year round, look a f t e r the cannery you know. The Nass people and the Aiyansh and the Greenville, they had a v i l l a g e of t h e i r own. And the people from Hartley Bay they had a v i l l a g e of t h e i r own; and the Skidegate people they were there too. Then us, we l i v e d next to them, the Skidegate people. The Greenville people l i v e d next to the Nass and K i t k a t l a people and Aiyansh and the Greenville. They're a l l together there. See, that was the biggest camp there was i n the cannery. Big f i s h i n g group there from a l l over, north and south. Question; (Who was there from South, i e . around Vancouver? You mentioned Wilsons*) Oh, the Wilsons were there, yeah. Mike Wilson, Frank Wilson, Ivan Wilson and Andrew Wilson, and, oh what you c a l l — Larry Wilson. They were a l l there. Question; Not very many people from Musqueam? No, j u s t us. We got i n there was through Mike. He was h i r i n g you know. He was h i r i n g for the fishermen there. He was h i r i n g for the company. He gets a l l the fishermen for the company, that * s how come we got i n there. Question; Was there anyone h i r i n g f o r the cannery workers? 98 No, no. You j u s t go t h e r e and they put you on t o work r i g h t t h e r e . You d i d n ' t have t o w a i t t i l l you're c a l l e d . But a f t e r you work, they know. I f you say you're going back next year, w e l l then they pay your f a r e see. And i f you went up on your own, they pay back your money what you p a i d on your f a r e . The Company d i d t h a t , because they need workers b a d l y . They used t o h i r e l o t s o f g i r l s from Vancouver, j u s t gather them up from anywhere and b r i n g them up t h e r e , make them work. Qu e s t i o n t Can you t e l l me i n what o r d e r you s t a r t e d moving from d i f f e r e n t p l a c e s , where Grandpa was working? You l i v e d i n C h i l l i w a c k . . . . We l i v e d i n C h i l l i w a c k because he was l o g g i n g . Moved home here a f t e r he got i n t o f i s h i n g b u s i n e s s . When we s t a r t g o i n g up North. And a f t e r he q u i t going up North, then we came down. He f i s h e d f o r I m p e r i a l Cannery i n the F r a s e r . Question; Where abouts d i d you l i v e when he was f i s h i n g t here? R i g h t i n Steveston, t h a t l i t t l e house I had t h e r e . That was the B. C. Packers house. We r e n t e d t h a t f o r $20 a month. You remember t h a t house t h e r e where I used t o l i v e ? Q uestion; D i d you s t a r t working i n the cannery r i g h t away? Yeah, I s t a r t e d working r i g h t away, soon as I got t h e r e jmoved t h e r e . Because my name was on the l i s t a l l time as b e i n g working up Skeena. Soon as I went a p p l y f o r work they took me. And I worked r i g h t through t i l l I was r e t i r e d . 'Cause I worked p r e t t y near a l l my l i f e f o r the B. C. Packers. Question; When was i t t h a t you were l i v i n g a t Westham, and you moved t o Iona I s l a n d and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t ? H a r r i e t i s over f o r t y now and she was a baby when we went t o Brunswick Cannery. They had a camp t h e r e . The cannery was working y e t a t Brunswick but I d i d n ' t work because I had a baby. And a l l my c h i l d r e n were going t o s c h o o l , I had no b a b y s i t t e r . So I j u s t stayed a t home. And t h a t was b e f o r e I s t a r t e d working, come back t o I m p e r i a l you know. And then from then on we went and l i v e d i n Canoe Pass. He was f i s h i n g . And then t o Westham I s l a n d . He was s t i l l f i s h i n g but I d i d n ' t work y e t , t i l l we come back S t e v e s t o n . Then I went back t o work. Q u e s t i o n : D i d you do any gardening o r . . . . ? No. Q u e s t i o n : Were you making baskets? 99 No, because I j u s t had my family to look a f t e r . But I used to go pick berries i n Westham Island. Raspberries — you know, to make my spending money. Question; Where did you f i n d berries? We j u s t picked f o r the farmers and they paid us to pick for them. Question; Did the childre n help too? Well, they were a l l i n school. I j u s t had the l i t t l e ones — Harriet and P r i s c i l l a and Geri, and Eddy was a baby. He was j u s t a l i t t l e t o t , you know, about eight months old when we l i v e d at Westham Island, Eddy was. He was j u s t a baby. Geri must have been about three years o l d . And Geri used to play under the house i n her l i t t l e canoe. She used to sing under there, she was singing there. So I brought a l l my c h i l d r e n up a l l over the place, everywhere we went, you know. We didn't r e a l l y stay i n Musqueam 'cause there was nothing to stay i n Musqueam f o r . No jobs or anything. We had to go out, go to earn our l i v i n g , to r a i s e our c h i l d r e n . A l l our l i f e we worked hard to bring our kids and never asked for welfare, never got anything from the government to help. We're s t i l l l i k e that as old as we are. We never went on welfare not once that I remember, and I never w i l l . Question: Were there any times (seasons, years, short times) when you didn't want to work or couldn't work because of Indian events l i k e Indian dances....? I used to be crying, running behind t h i s wagon waiting to go too! (to Indian dances) No, they chase me back with a s t i c k ! (Laughter) Then we'd get together us kids l e f t behind. Never allowed kids to go to Indian dances, never, no matter how o l d you were. So we stayed home and then we'd do our own dancing. Get together and we'd have our own Indian dance. We used to have l o t s of fun anyways. My grandaunt and (grand uncle?) get home, my, you guys must have been dancing again! She'd f i n d l o t of things we're not supposed to have, you know. Some feathers and odds and ends. Rose: (not taped) My grandmother could speak English but most of the time she used to speak Chinook to white people. Ed Sparrow: This road was r e a l l y rough from here to 49th, 51st, I guess, yeah. Rocks, sometimes the bloody wheel would be up there and the bloody buggy would drop again (laughter). Going up (New) Westminster, one of the worst roads there was, I guess. I don't know how they did i t with them bloody wagons. We used to go up there (New Westminster) for exhi- b i t i o n , you know. Stay there for a whole bloody week. I used to t r a v e l along with my grandparents several times. One time 100 we went up on the s a i l boat. Celebration. The whole family was (there) you know. Cousins, in-laws, brother-in-laws. They a l l bring t h e i r own (tents). When they get up there they p i t c h t h e i r tents up a l l around. One b i g f i r e i n the middle. They get drunk and sing. Rose; The o l d people, huh. Ed: Yeah. They were playing. Grand o l d time. Question: What exhi b i t i o n was this? We used to b u i l d our tents below that h i l l , you know. Just about where — what store i s that, one of the b i g stores there — Eaton's, i s i t , i n New Westminster? Rose: I guess so. Ed: Right below i t anyway. Come up the steps up the h i l l . There was a b i g drop o f f l i k e that one time there. Walk a l l the way up to Queen's Park from there. We used to anyway. The older people, I think they got on a streetcar. Streetcars going up there, you know. We didn't sleep. They d i d that i n Vancouver for awhile but they q u i t i t again. Heck, there was no bloody excitement i n that, j u s t the bloody clowns. Yet the people would go. Some of them stopped on the way home from hop picking. They pitched up t h e i r tents there. Rich, about $30 - $40 from hop picking! (laughter) That was money i n them days, you know! Goodness sake, a sack of f l o u r was t h i r t y - f i v e cents a bag. Big sack, you know. Rose: How much was the booze? Ed: Darned i f I know. Good booze was about s i x t y - f i v e cents a b o t t l e , good booze. Not bad, something l i k e that, you know. Rose: They used to be great ones to buy those l i t t l e f l a s k s , i s n ' t i t ? I seen a l o t of them. Ed: Used to l i v e on grub at the fairgrounds, some buy booze I guess on the way home (to camp). S i t around the f i r e and nobody bothers them. No p o l i c e come. They sing and play. Good times, that's what you c a l l a good time. Women f o l k , I didn't see hardly anybody drink, you know. Rose: I never see any women drink or smoke. Not much men too. Ed: My granny never drank or smoke. Paddy Johnny's grand- mother, she never drank. She was with her uncle a l l the time though. 101 Rose; Once i n awhile you'd see a man drunk and you'd be just scared s t i f f . My granduncle was the only one that drank but that was a f t e r us. How he s t a r t drinking was he was a musician. He played v i o l i n . He'd be hired to go play for the white people's dance and that's how he learned how to drink at them doos. 102 D u r i n g t h i s i n t e r v i e w G r a n d m o t h e r was n o t a s a w a r e o f t h e t a p e r e c o r d e r as s h e h a d b e e n p r e v i o u s l y . She was k e e n l y m o t i v a t e d t o e x p r e s s h e r o p i n i o n s and r e l a t e h e r p a s t l i f e t o c u r r e n t t o p i c a l i s s u e s . K n i t t i n g was a l s o a d i v e r s i o n ; s he h a d s o m e t h i n g o t h e r t h a n t h e r e c o r d i n g t o t h i n k a b o u t . D u r i n g t a p i n g o f t h e d i a l o g u e s h e was c o m p l e t e l y u n a w a r e o f t h e r e c o r d e r . E d became t h e s u b j e c t w h i l e s h e h a d a l m o s t r e v e r s e d h e r p o s i t i o n t o become t h e i n t e r v i e w e r a n d h e r i n t e r e s t was i n o b t a i n i n g i n f o r m a t i o n r a t h e r t h a n t h i n k i n g w h a t t o t e l l . T h i s c o u l d be a v a l u a b l e t e c h n i q u e f o r d a t a c o l l e c t i o n as w e l l as f o r i n c r e a s i n g an i n f o r m a n t ' s s e l f c o n f i d e n c e w i t h t a p e r e c o r d i n g . A n o t h e r p o i n t t o n o t e i s t h e g r e a t i m p r o v e m e n t i n h e r n a r r a t i v e s t y l e . Much b e t t e r f l o w a n d d i r e c t i o n , more i n t e g r a t e d s t a t e m e n t s c a n be f o u n d . P e r h a p s t h e s e a r e a p r o d u c t o f e a r l i e r r e c o r d i n g and d i s c u s s i o n , a n d a more c o m f o r t a b l e f e e l i n g . T h i s s u g g e s t s a n o t h e r r e s e a r c h a p p r o a c h u t i l i z i n g p r e p a r a t o r y s e s s i o n s , t h e n a s h o r t e r f i n a l r e c o r d i n g s e s s i o n . The s p o n t a n e o u s r e a c t i o n t o t h e n e w s p a p e r p h o t o a n d a r t i c l e c o n f i r m t h a t q u e s t i o n i n g i s n o t t h e o n l y means o f c o l l e c t i n g d a t a . O t h e r d e v i c e s s h o u l d be i n t r o d u c e d t o s t i m u l a t e r e c a l l , t o m o t i v a t e a n d i n t e r e s t i n f o r m a n t s . G r a n d m o t h e r ' s r e a c t i o n s p r o b a b l y a r e n o t u n l i k e f e e l i n g s o f o t h e r p e r s o n s a b o u t t h e UBCIC p r o p o s a l s . T h i s i n c i d e n t made h e r r e f l e c t on h e r own i n d e p e n d e n c e , l i v i n g c o n d i t i o n , a n d a t t i t u d e s t o g o v e r n m e n t a g e n c i e s . I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n p o i n t l e s s t o p u r s u e d i r e c t e d q u e s t i o n i n g w i t h o u t a l l o w i n g h e r t o r e l a t e t h e s e o b v i o u s l y i m p o r t a n t a n d r e l e v a n t f e e l i n g s . The n e c e s s i t y f o r a l l o w i n g i n f o r m a n t s f r e e d o m t o e x p r e s s t h e i r o p i n i o n s h a s 103 become more e v i d e n t . R e s t r i c t i o n s i n c r e a s e i n h i b i t i o n a n d f r u s t r a t i o n w h i c h c o u l d l e a d t o b o r e d o m o r d i s i n t e r e s t . P a r t o f t h e d a t a h e r e i s r e p e t i t i o n f r o m G r a n d m o t h e r ' s e a r l i e r t a p e . E v e n t s o r f a c t s w h i c h a r e r e p e a t e d a r e p r o b a b l y what i s m o s t i m p o r t a n t t o h e r , w h a t h e r l i f e i s b a s e d u p o n . H e r r e c a l l p a t t e r n a nd a s s o c i a t i o n s c a n be s e e n a n d c o m p a r e d w i t h t h e t r a n s c r i p t i o n i n Tape 22. I t i s a l s o p o s s i b l e s h e f e l t t h i s t o be w h a t I w a n t e d t o h e a r . A t any r a t e , r e p e t i t i o n c a n be u s e f u l i n v e r i f y i n g e v e n t s a n d t i m e s f o r c h r o n o l o g i c a l a n a l y s i s . R e l a t i n g h e r work o r r e s i d e n c e t o E d ' s w o r k i s s i g n i f i - c a n t . I n t h e t e x t , c o o p e r a t i o n a n d a d a p t a t i o n t o s i t u a t i o n s i n t h e i r m a r r i a g e a n d w o r k w e r e o b v i o u s . A t t h e same t i m e , t h e i r i n d e p e n d e n c e a l s o i s e v i d e n t . T h i s c a n be c l a s s e d as s e l f i n d e p e n d e n c e w h e r e t h e s p o u s e ' s w o r k d o e s n o t c o n f i n e w o r k c h o i c e , a n d c u l t u r a l i n d e p e n d e n c e w h e r e n e i t h e r f e l t u n c o m f o r t a b l e w o r k i n g on t h e i r own. E v e n w i t h o u t r e f e r e n c e i t w o u l d be p o s s i b l e t o d e t e r m i n e t h e s e f e a t u r e s f r o m t h e t e x t . S e t t i n g up a s i m p l e t a b l e o f s e a s o n a l a c t i v i t i e s i s e f f e c t i v e i n c h e c k i n g b a s i c s e a s o n a l c y c l e s . The p a t t e r n f o r Rose on t h i s t a p e was as f o l l o w s : s p r i n g - s k i n a n d d r y p e l t s d i g r o o t s c o l l e c t b a r k summer - c a n n e r y — s a l m o n , t r a v e l s o m e t i m e s c u t wood, make b a s k e t s when n o t i n c a n n e r y , b e r r i e s f a l l - c a n n e r y p i c k h o p s w i n t e r - s k i n a n d d r y p e l t s k n i t o r make b a s k e t s (Compare w i t h Ed's c y c l e , p . 44) 104 T h i s t r a n s c r i p t d e m o n s t r a t e s t h e a c c e p t a n c e a n d n e c e s s i t y o f m o b i l i t y . B o t h g r a n d p a r e n t s a n d l a r g e numbers o f N a t i v e p e o p l e g e n e r a l l y w e r e i n v o l v e d i n w o r k p a t t e r n s w i t h a h i g h m o b i l i t y b o t h w i t h i n t h e l a b o r f o r c e i t s e l f , a n d i n g e o g r a p h i c l o c a t i o n . A w i d e r a n g e o f e x p e r i e n c e a n d s k i l l l e v e l s a r e o b v i o u s c o n c o m i t a n t f a c t o r s , as a r e s o c i a l a d a p t a b i l i t y , i n d u s t r i o u s n e s s a n d e a r l y t r a i n i n g . A l l t h e s e f a c t o r s i n c r e a s e t h e e a s e w i t h w h i c h m o b i l i t y was a c h i e v e d . Much i n f o r m a t i o n g i v e n b y G r a n d m o t h e r i s t h e same t y p e as G r a n d f a t h e r ' s . E l i c i t i n g t h e w o r k h i s t o r y h a s e n t a i l e d c o l l e c t i n g a w i d e r a n g e o f v a l u e s a n d a c t i v i t i e s . I n t h i s t a p e f o r e x a m p l e , s h e r e f e r s t o h e r e a r l y l i f e when s h e l e a r n e d t o w o r k , r e a s o n s f o r and v a r i e t y o f w o r k , r e w a r d s o f w o r k . R e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o f a m i l y and k i n , s o c i a l i n t e r a c t i o n , a n d r e s i d e n c e h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s e d i n t e r m s o f j o b s and w o r k . G r a n d - m o t h e r h a s made d i r e c t r e f e r e n c e t o t h e b i r t h o r d e r and age o f h e r c h i l d r e n . She d i d t h i s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e t y p e a n d amount o f w o r k s h e c o u l d do. H e r s t a t e m e n t s a l s o i m p l i e d w h e r e r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s l a y , o u t l i n i n g an o r d e r o f p r i o r i t i e s i n l i f e . A f t e r t r a n s c r i p t i o n f r o m t h e t a p e , d a t a was t r a n s f e r r e d t o t h e c h r o n o l o g y a n d i n d e x f o r a n a l y s i s a n d p r e p a r a t i o n o f f u r t h e r i n t e r v i e w s w i t h e a c h g r a n d p a r e n t . 10 5 C h a p t e r 4 INTERVIEWS WITH WORK CHRONOLOGY 4.1 T a p e s 2 8 a n d 29 Ed S p a r r o w May 2 9 , 1975 B o t h c h r o n o l o g i e s w e r e e x a m i n e d a n d c o m p a r e d b e f o r e t h e t a p e s i n t h i s c h a p t e r w e r e r e c o r d e d . G r a n d f a t h e r ' s c h r o n o l o g y was f a r more c o m p l e t e a n d more e x a c t i n t i m e r e f e r e n c e s , b u t gaps e x i s t e d a n d q u e s t i o n s w e r e l i s t e d t o f i l l them. I t was p o s s i b l e t o a d d some i n f o r m a t i o n as a r e s u l t o f t h e c o m p a r i s o n , a n d i n - c o n s i s t e n c i e s w e r e a l s o p i c k e d up. I n o r d e r t o f a c i l i t a t e c o m p l e t i o n o f t h e w o r k h i s t o r i e s , t h e c h r o n o l o g i e s w e r e u s e d d i r e c t l y now. A s h o r t t i m e p r i o r t o t h i s i n t e r v i e w , G r a n d f a t h e r was g i v e n t h e r o u g h d r a f t o f h i s c h r o n o l o g y t o s t u d y . I t c o n s i s t e d o f a l o n g s h e e t w i t h a y e a r by y e a r l i s t i n g o f r e c o r d e d i n f o r m a t i o n . He s t u d i e d t h e c h r o n o l o g y f o r some t i m e b e f o r e d e c i d i n g t o p r o c e e d w i t h r e c o r d i n g . A r e a s r e q u i r i n g c o r r e c t i o n w e r e p o i n t e d o u t by h i m f o r n o t a t i o n t o f a c i l i t a t e r e c a l l d u r i n g t h e i n t e r v i e w . Q u e s t i o n i n g was b e g u n w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o a s p a n o f s e v e r a l y e a r s w h i c h was b a r e l y d o c u m e n t e d . He t h e n p r o c e e d e d t h r o u g h t h e y e a r s on h i s own t i m e , t e l l i n g w h a t he c o u l d r e c a l l , c o r r e c t i n g s e v e r a l p o i n t s . No a t t e m p t was made t o w r i t e c o r r e c t i o n s o r a d d i t i o n s on t h e c h r o n o l o g y . T h e s e w e r e a d d e d a f t e r t h i s r e c o r d i n g h a d b e e n f u l l y t r a n s c r i b e d . G r a n d m o t h e r was p r e s e n t d u r i n g t h i s s e s s i o n , b u t she was n o t d i r e c t l y i n v o l v e d a t f i r s t . She was aware o f w h a t was g o i n g 106 o n , and b e g a n c o n t r i b u t i n g i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h o u t p r o m p t i n g . What sh e was s a y i n g a b o u t h e r s e l f was a l s o r e l a t e d t o h i s comments. I n t h e d i a l o g u e (Tape 2 8) t h e y a g a i n v e r i f i e d and q u e s t i o n e d e a c h o t h e r . G r a n d f a t h e r w e n t t h r o u g h t h e e n t i r e c h r o n o l o g y y e a r b y y e a r d u r i n g one s e s s i o n a nd n e a r l y t w o t a p e s w e r e c o m p l e t e d . S h o r t b r e a k s w e r e t a k e n p e r i o d i c a l l y t o a l l o w h i m t o r e c a l l c e r t a i n f a c t s , t o t a l k a b o u t o t h e r t h i n g s , o r t o g i v e a d i v e r s i o n f r o m t h e d e t a i l o f t h e c h r o n o l o g y . 107 Tape 28 Recorded: May 29, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrow Musqueam QUESTIONS RELATED TO PRELIMINARY OUTLINE OP WORK CHRONOLOGY — AN ATTEMPT TO FILL IN YEARS WHERE INFORMATION IS MISSING OR CONFLICTING. 1932: Oh '32, yeah, well, we went up (to Skeena) you know. The whole family went up on gas boat. Same old routine, fished up Skeena and she worked i n the cannery. 1933 was the same; '34 same thing, up Skeena and back again with the whole family. 1934 was the beginning of Adams Run, I guess. F i r s t r e a l big run, you know. 1930 i t showed up but i t wasn't, you know, i t was r e a l l y l ate run. Sockeyes were dark and black, the companies didn't want them. You got things kind of mixed up there, huh? (Reference to chronology). On the years, I mean. Question: You t e l l me which years are mixed up then and I * 11 f i x i t . Ed: You got i t r i g h t , 1934, you're r i g h t . What happened i n ~'5? Where i s i t now? Nothing but f i s h i n g at Skeena. I forgot how many years I went up early worked i n the canneries and hang nets. What years or where I mean, I always worked up there every year. '36, yeah, we were up there. Same old thing, went up there with the family '35, '36. Fished up there. And '37 same old thing, no change. 1938, that was when Willard and Ronny (sons) started to f i s h with me. I gave up getting partners because i t was too much trouble. Sometimes (partners) keep hounding you over money and sometimes there's no money made. Not that much money made and they s t i l l come afte r i t so I qui t . The boys fished with me from '38, '39, '40, '41. Ronny got a boat of his own i n '42. '42 was the l a s t year I went up Skeena, I guess. You got i t here (on the chronology). 10 8 '33 was a r e a l bad season up there (Skeena). Did I t e l l you that? A r e a l bad one. Nobody was .... yeah, '33. 1940 was a bad one too, I think. She (Rose) paid my way down, gasoline and everything I guess, everything i s pretty well there now except '44. •42, '44, yeah, I think the Union (U.F.A.W.U.) formed i n '42, I think. Started to do something, I don't know what they were doing. You've got '44. '42 was a big run, '46 was Adams. What i s this? We're kind of mixed up here, '42 was a big Adams run here, you know, one of the biggest ever. '46 again. We didn't get the welfare (through Native Brotherhood) for quite some time. In other words when we started negotiating with the union I can't r e c a l l j ust what year we did f i n a l l y win out, you know. Question: You said the Fishermen's Union wasn't formed i n "r4~4? I don't think so. There was, what you c a l l i t now, Fraser River G i l l n e t t e r s Association, but what year they sort of amalgamated and then the union took over I can't r e c a l l just what year. But i n '42 the union was t r y i n g to dicker over that G i l l n e t t e r s Association then, but how f a r they got I don't know. I was a member but i t ' s hard to keep track of a l l that. I was a member of that G i l l n e t t e r s Association for quite some time before I joined Native Brotherhood. '46, I don't know, well, there was a big Adams run. '43 was a bad year on the Fraser, a r e a l bad one. Didn't make nothing, no money t i l l f a l l . Restrictions started to come on then, you know. Right aft e r '42 they started to work on i t , but I think they r e a l l y started to come into e f f e c t about '44, '45. Question: Were you limited to a couple of days a week? I t wasn't quite that bad, but you know, we were getting three, four days a week. But they started cutting the fishermen down. Chinese gardens, I don't know what you've got there. Question: You mentioned somewhere on the tape that you had worked on the Chinese gardens but I didn't know when or where. Oh, every now and then, you know. I used to work out i n the big f i e l d s where the golf course i s (at Musqueam). Just hoeing and gathering t h e i r vegetables i n , I guess, that was a l l . 109 Question; Was that e a r l i e r on (in your l i f e ) , a few years before? You've got i t questioned there betv/een '46 and '47. That's the only place I worked, but i t was e a r l i e r than that, you know. I t h i n k i t was shortly a f t e r we got back from Chilliwack when I worked there. I was working i n the cannery aft e r f i s h i n g time a l l during the war days and from sometimes after New Year's making lead l i n e s , preparing nets, cleaning, sweeping out the net l o f t and one thing and another. Then sometimes when somebody was i n a hurry they get me to hang net for awhile, you know. Then when they catch up to t h e i r work again, I go back to my own work. Moulding l i n e s i s what they r e a l l y c a l l e d i t . Moulding lead l i n e . And besides that we thread the corks onto the cork l i n e , pretty near a l l spring t i l l I f e e l l i k e q u i t t i n g . Then I go spring f i s h i n g ; sometimes I stay r i g h t with i t t i l l p retty near sockeye time, you know. That's s t a r t i n g from about '42 r i g h t on t i l l , oh, every year. I don't know how many years I did that for the spring. That's working with Imperial Cannery -(B. C. Packers), you know. That's where we were moulding l i n e s , threading l i n e s and sorting nets as they come i n from wholesalers. Question: Were you l i v i n g over at Steveston r i g h t then? No, I was l i v i n g here. I used to go there. We didn't move to Steveston t i l l '48, '46, '47, I think something l i k e that. Let's see now, no, we were s t i l l at Westham Island. We were l i v i n g there but our camp was i n Westham. We moved there aft e r Skeena River f i s h i n g . I can't r e c a l l when we moved. '48, I think, something l i k e that. 1953: Strike Both sockeye time and f a l l we had hardly any f i s h i n g time. The fishermen wanted a r a i s e . I think we were getting thirty-two, t h i r t y - t h r e e cents a pound then. For chums they were only o f f e r i n g us, hmm. We wanted, I can't r e c a l l what we wanted, you know, on chums. But they started buying chums by the pound then. I guess i t was about six or eight cents a pound, something l i k e that. We had a long, bloody s t r i k e one season but I can't r e c a l l what year. Question: Did Willard f i s h with you i n 1942? Yeah, he stayed r i g h t with me t i l l he stayed out of school t i l l the end of September before he went back. And afte r that, yeah, a couple of years he fished with me, I guess. Then he went on his own a f t e r . Maybe 3 years, I can't r e c a l l . 110 Anyways, Lyle and Johnny started to f i s h with me year a f t e r year. In the Fraser, you know, I never go anywheres no more. Sometimes I have a good season, other times they're kind of bad. There's so much r e s t r i c t i o n . We never know when we're gonna be, when they're gonna close the r i v e r down. They never put i t on a b u l l e t i n board. This welfare you've got here, you've got a question mark on (1944). That was brought up along with our f i s h prices negotiation but we never succeeded. We never did get i t t i l l somewheres around 1954 something l i k e that before i t came into e f f e c t , yeah. But that was brought up year aft e r year. From 1944 on or '45 I can't r e c a l l the exact year. 1947, I can't r e c a l l what happened i n 1947. I was just f i s h i n g around....I did well a l l the time I was f i s h i n g though, you know. Except '43 was a bad one. I didn't make no big money, but I made enough to l i v e on. A l i t t l e b i t to put away besides, we never used up, you know. '48 would be a big Adams run again. I t was advertised. I think i t started to die down i t was advertised too much. (Laughter) That's what r e a l l y happened. Oh, yeah, they a l l come down from Skeena River. Couldn't get your net out i f you were a l i t t l e b i t l a t e . You gotta have your net out about just l i k e t h i s . I f you were a l i t t l e b i t late you'd never get i t out. I t ' s dark, you know. The whole bunch of them (Northern people) were down i n 1948, I think. 1950 they had a good season up Rivers I n l e t . That's when we went. I didn't want to go but Lyle (son) and John were f i s h i n g together. I got a rental boat for them you know — John Cook. I t was Ace High I guess, t h e i r boat. They did pretty well. Not bad for young guys. I can't r e c a l l what year I t r i e d to g&t Lyle started. I think Willard got his boat — when was i t the war ended? '48, '46, '45? Well, he had his boat then I guess, '45. Fishing by himself then and he was only sixteen years old. Quit school before he was sixteen. I don't know what you had on trapping r e a l l y , you know. I can't r e c a l l what I said. (I was trapping) every- thing. Muskrats and minks. I used to track coons a l l over, Chilliwack and here. I didn't mention I guess that I was trapping up Chilliwack. Yeah, I was trapping a l l over the va l l e y i n a horse and buggy going around sloughs. Question: This was between your jobs i n logging camps I guess? Yeah, well sometimes the camp closes down you know, you gotta do something else. I t would get so damn cold, close down. Sometimes they don't work for, no sale and they close down. You know things weren't as valued as now. A l o t of times they get two or three booms and they can't get r i d of i t . I l l You gotta close the camp down. This was i n between times (that I trapped). Question: Did you have a big trapline? No, no. In sloughs and one thing and another. Over here when we were trapping here we used to trap around where the airport's now, you know. And I trapped a l l around here, look at my traps early i n the evening or early i n the morning. Then I'd go across to Dinsmore Island at nights and look at your traps with l i g h t s . The only chance you got was when the tid e was low. Otherwise during the day i t ' s half tid e you know, you can't see the traps. Sometimes you get home about three, four o'clock i n the morning. Sea Island, Lulu Island, I trapped a l l around there. B i g ditches you know, a l l along the f l a t s . I did the same thing up Chilliwack. Anywhere you know where. Rose: The most I ever skinned one day was t h i r t y . Ed: Forty something one day, you skinned i t a l l . I couldn't pack i t a l l home. I had to go and make another t r i p . Hard work though. Rose: Skin them and put them on the boards. I used to know how to do that. I f you didn't well they'd shrink up. He had a l l the boards made, and I'd s l i d e them i n , put the l i t t l e s t i c k i n both sides so they wouldn't get stuck. Then you n a i l i t on the bottom. Question: Did you trap r i g h t up u n t i l about when, the 1950s? Ed: Yeah, i t was '49 I think when I quit trapping. '49 or "•"̂O. I had a l l the boys trapping with me for awhile, Ronny. I t was so damn cold one morning when we were going out winter time, Ronny had a lantern to heat up our windshield. Hold the lantern up there so i t wouldn't freeze. I t was s t i l l dark when we leave to go to Sea Island yom know. We gotta get up there before the tide gets up. You couldn't heat your windshield no way then. The cars weren't rigged that way. You used to hold the bloody lantern up. Well, they had heat coming through but not going up your windshield. Ice was forming from your breath. Ronny used to hold the lantern there. That's aft e r he quit school, i s n ' t i t ? Rose: I guess so. That poor k i d r e a l l y worked hard. Ed: Sometimes he'd go out alone to look at the traps. I used to t r u s t him with the car. Sea Island was the best place for traps. We did well there on the reserve and outside the dike. Nobody knew anything about trapping outside the dike, you know. We did well, the price i s good. We l o s t big money one time, me and Ronny. We thought we'd get a 112 r a i s e , we was holding i t (furs)back. I t was three and a half d o l l a r s a p e l t then, you know and coming up r i g h t along. I to l d Ronny I don't think we'll s e l l ours t i l l the price gets higher. And the following week they went down (laughter), went down to about two do l l a r s apiece. T,Te l o s t out. I used to trap, go across here to Iona. I trapped there too, you know. Sometimes I'd go across and come back, get i n the car, go to Sea Island. I never hardly sleep for a month while the trapping was good. Question: T,Then was the best time for trapping? Anytime aft e r November. Used to open f i f t e e n t h . Rose: You get a trap, I ' l l show you how to trap. I used to trap when I was a k i d . Ed: Yeah, we did well. I made a l i v i n g out of i t . 19 what T?8, '29, i t was down to for t y cents apiece for some reason. I don't know why, yet I trapped. x<!e had to, yeah, i t was '43 I guess where we had a bad year ( f i s h i n g ) . Then p e l t s went down too, fo r t y cents apiece. I kept doing i t . Rose: I wonder why i t ' s s t i l l cheap? Ed: I guess the market went haywire i n Europe. That's where most of the pe l t s were going, you know. Question: Did you do pretty well just f i s h i n g a f t e r about 1950? Yeah, I did a l l r i g h t , r i g h t through. I didn't make no big money but I was pretty near high boat every year up on the Fraser. Question: Fere you f i s h i n g springs and sockeye? Yeah, sometimes I go spring f i s h i n g and other times I don't. I f I know i t ' s poor I don't bother (spring f i s h i n g ) . Soon as I hear a good report I go r i g h t away. One time, I can't r e c a l l i t may be '44, I fished r i g h t here. I used to go to Canoe Pass to f i s h springs and that year I didn't f e e l l i k e going there. I fished around here and I made more money than them guys i n Canoe Pass r i g h t at home here. I did a l l spring. That was about the l a s t time the r i v e r was any good. 1942 was good r i g h t here when sockeye went up. Ronny did good here after we got back from Skeena, r i g h t here. Then we moved to Steveston after awhile. Then there was another thing here (on the chronology) 1952, '53. I organized for Native Brotherhood for two years or so. Then l a t e r , I became an executive member after that. Question: After 1953? 113 Yes. Then I was elected to Board of Trustees. That's when they were f i r s t s t a r t i n g (in south??) Yeah, I was an executive member af t e r two years. I believe i t was '54 when we f i n a l l y won out on the welfare. That same year I was elected to the Board of Trustees representing the Brotherhood. From that year on u n t i l 1972 before I was r e t i r e d from i t . Question: Did you go f i s h i n g every year while you were working with the Brotherhood? Yeah, yeah. We have meetings aft e r f i s h i n g (season), or sometimes i n the evening or weekends. I only organized around here, I didn't want to spend no time out away from home because you never know when they're going to open the season i n the r i v e r . I t was short notice. They wanted me to t r a v e l i n the In t e r i o r b,ut I wouldn't do i t . I t wasn't worth my while. You've got some empty spaces here. I t ' s hard to r e c a l l each year you've got there. Question: Part of that time i n the l a t e r years, were you workingfor the band o f f i c e here at Musqueam? Well, i t must have been 1942 I guess when the old Chief died and I took over. Question: What Chief was that? Chief Jack Stogan. I took over for one year, act as Chief. That's when the band f i r s t started to go. See they l i k e t h e i r money because they were f i a t broke when I took over. Well, they had $292 or$298 i n the band fund. I d i d everything, started a booming ground here. We got not too much money for i t . The year a f t e r that we boost i t up, and I sold whatever I could get hold of, wood, you know. People used to accuse me. I sold that and a l l the money went into a bloody revenue account. I was los i n g money on i t when we were t r a v e l l i n g . Sold a l l the wood, beach wood and everything on Seal Island and over here. I never took nothing f o r my expenses. We got two or three booms to come i n , at a pretty low rate for a while. Then f i n a l l y they got interested and we boosted i t up. We used to get about $11,000, $12,000 a year out of i t . We kept b u i l d i n g i t up u n t i l 19.., we must have b u i l t i t up u n t i l about 1956 (or'66??) We had $132,000. The people were getting kind of leary about i t . They want to use i t , they want to see i f the money was there. They wouldn't believe me when I make my reports they thought I was getting r i c h . Then they found out they had money there and they s t a r t wanting everything on the reserve. 114 We started to help o l d people out of i t . For a year or two we were taking, oh, they were only b u i l d i n g one or two houses. 1956 I became Chief u n t i l , I can't r e c a l l , '56. No, l a t e r than that, I'm making a mistake. James Point was Chief for ten years I guess and I was his secretary. From '43 u n t i l — When did our la t e son (John) become Chief? He was the f i r s t one afte r James, but what year? Anyway James got on '43 I know that for sure. He was on for ten years I think. I got i t marked down i n a book. Then Dominic (Point) I guess. I can't r e c a l l how many guys took over. Then Johnny became a Chief a f t e r . Who was Chief when I ran for i t ? (asks Rose). Oh, Dominic (Point) I guess. I was on for four years. That's when I'm tryi n g to figure out (when). Four years, 1968 when I was beaten by Gerty (Guerin) I guess. Must have been 1964 (when I got into o f f i c e ) I can't r e c a l l , you could get i t from the o f f i c e I guess, properly. But i t ' s '68 when Gerty took over you know. No! E a r l i e r than that. There's something wrong here, I got mixed up. Chief after Gerty. Dominic came on, he was on for two years, '67. F i f t y - e i g h t when I r e t i r e d , that's r i g h t , not '68, because Dominic l o s t out and then Percy (Charles) I think. So Percy was Chief when my late son, Willard died, you know. That's r i g h t , '58 when somebody beat me to i t you know. Must have been 1954 when I became Chief. Johnny was Chief i n '52. I remember '52 when they wanted to get r i d . of James (Point) you know. People voted to go on a new system, e l e c t every two years. Then a l l the young kids got on. Johnny was Chief, B i l l y Guerin was a co u n c i l l o r and Smitty was a co u n c i l l o r . They didn't know what the h e l l they were doing! I used to go out there to help them. Question: Were you on the council for awhile too? Oh yeah, that was the old s t y l e . I never bothered to run when t h i s new system was c a l l e d for. Too busy, I didn't want to be involved i n anything you know. Chiefs were r e a l l y the boss, boss the people around. I never did run for Council, I did run once not too long ago and I got defeated again by two points or so. And I never bothered. Now I get interested when thing are going haywire. I might run t h i s time again for council. Question: You mentioned a big s t r i k e about 1963? 1963, sockeye, yeah. Fraser River and a l l over the coast. We didn't get our demands. I can't r e c a l l quite. I just burned my f i s h books not too long ago. I think they'd give everything, you know. You know what you make each year then you know, and what went on. Everytime we lose with a s t r i k e i t ' s marked i n my book, i n the black one you know. 115 Even the tides were marked i n my book so I know. From year to year I used the same books. Study, study the t i d e s . That's how we used to make a go of i t . Ronny did the same thing. Everybody wondered why we were always on time but we had i t marked down, you know. That's the only way you have to do i t . Even Skeena River we did the same thing. I kept a sort of log book, I guess they c a l l i t . What date you catch a c e r t a i n amount of f i s h and what kind of t i d e s . You know, how many feet tides. We never keep track of high t i d e s , one thing and another, we keep track 6f low ti d e s . When we got our catches you know. Even i f i t ' s a poor t i d e , poor day well i t went down. Just the same bloody book you know. You had to be one day, well we'd catch our bloody f i s h a day before delivery a l l the time you know, and you've got to back log a l l the time. And the time, when the tide was r i g h t , when i t was low. I t worked l i k e that the same way i n Skeena. You had to keep track of every tide and what sort of tide i t was, when you made your catch. Well we didn't hardly miss from year to year. You look at your book and you know. You probably miss a day or so. Sometimes the f i s h are a l i t t l e b i t l a t e . You get i t the next t i d e . You don't quit then, you keep t r y i n g . We had t h i s r i v e r down pat you know. That's a l l we did up Skeena that's why v/e were always high (boat — highest earnings) too you know. Had i t pretty well down pat. Only thing that beat us there was snags! Question: You sold your boat (Arctic Prince) about 1972? Yeah, *72 when I sold i t I think, yeah. Question: I got confused about when you bought your f i r s t boat? 1928. I sold i t i n 1942. Question: And i n 1942 you bought another boat? I bought a small one, the Seabird I I . Then, when did I get my new boat, A r c t i c Prince? 1953. I had that thing for — yeah, I got that i n '43, the l i t t l e one, that's Seabird II that was. Question: Did you keep that one u n t i l you got the A r c t i c Prince? Yeah, I r e b u i l t i t and made i t do. I sold i t i n '51, I guess. I didn't get my boat u n t i l , I think i t ' s the wrong year. I got my boat i n '52 I think, the new one. You've got '53 here. I bought another boat a f t e r the Seabird I I . I t should have been named Seabird I I I . I paid $5,200 for the Seabird IV, which was b u i l t by K i s h i Brothers (Boat Bu i l d e r s ) . I only kept i t for two years. I sold i t for $4,800 I think. 116 (It was) too deep for r i v e r f i s h i n g . I'd get grounded while the other guys were s t i l l a f l o a t . I t ' s s t i l l going. The Japanese (who bought i t ) said there's nothing wrong with i t . I t makes a good trawler. The Japanese used to season t h e i r material one or two years before they b u i l d with i t . When I r e b u i l t the A r c t i c Prince the r i b s were s t a r t i n g to go. I t (wood) wasn't seasoned. We a l l got our boats there (Kishi Brothers). Mike (Wilson), Roy (Wilson), even your Dad (Ron Sparrow, Sr.) got his f i r s t boat there. About $1,500 I think, and i t was only two years old I think (when Ron bought i t ) . Dan Thomas ( l i v i n g at Duncan) bought Ron's second boat. Question: What was your p o s i t i o n with the Native Brotherhood when you became a member? An executive member. Later on I became Vice-President of a l l the Southern D i s t r i c t . You're next to the Vice- President there you know. Whenever you decide on your d i s t r i c t w e ll, i t ' s brought up to the board. I was Vice-President f o r , up to the time I q u i t anyway from the time I was elected i n '54 I think up to '72. Yeah. There's nothing i n i t you know just a headache that's a l l . Got my expenses paid and meals and what not. Someone had to do i t , so. I enjoyed i t . The union always t r i e d to swallow us and we were f i g h t i n g back at them you know. Question: While you were on the band council here you were s t i l l f i s h i n g too, were you? Yeah, then I can't r e c a l l what year I was business manager now, '68. Yeah, '68 - '70. I started i n '68 and I quit '70, i n July or August. I had Brian running my boat. He wasn't making no money for me, and there wasn't much pay i n the bloody o f f i c e then you know. So I quit i t and I went f i s h i n g . Question: Can I go back to when you f i r s t started working? You went to a logging camp on Saltspring Island. You said that was your f i r s t logging? I t was about 1916 I think. Question: And that's where your father worked was i t ? Yeah, he was the foreman. That's the reason why I got on! (Laughter) My dad was foreman there i n the logging camp in Saltspring. Question: Can you r e c a l l your jobs i n order a f t e r that? Oh, I went to, hmm, I can't r e c a l l the name of i t . Toby's Inle t , yeah, we were there for quite awhile. Can't 117 g e t o u t . Q u e s t i o n : Do y o u remember a b o u t w h a t y e a r t h a t w o u l d be? A b o u t 1 9 1 7 , I g u e s s . Then I w e n t t o , a f t e r t h a t I w e n t t o H a l f m o o n B a y . T h e n , I w e n t t o B i d w e l l B a y , t h a t ' s up i n t h e i n l e t ( B u r r a r d I n l e t ) . I c a n ' t r e c a l l how l o n g I s t a y e d t h e r e . Y o u d o n ' t s t a y i n a camp f o r t o o l o n g . The g r u b was b a d a t t i r o e s y o u know. S o m e t i m e s y o u s t a y t h e r e f o r a c o u p l e o f months o r s o , t h e n y o u g e t a r o t t e n m e a l y o u w a n t t o q u i t r i g h t away. T h i n g s w e r e b a d i n T o b y ' s I n l e t . Y o u c o u l d n ' t h a v e a d e c e n t m e a l t h e r e , we c o u l d n ' t g e t o u t . We h a d t o row a c r o s s t o a l i t t l e s e t t l e r t h e r e y o u know. He h a d a l i t t l e b o a t a n d we p a i d h i m t o t a k e u s o u t t o t h e s t e a m b o a t l i n e . The o n l y t h i n g we w e r e e a t i n g was b a c o n a n d e g g s , w h i c h w e r e g e t t i n g r o t t e n . B e c a u s e t h e y h a d no r e f r i g e r a t o r o f a n y k i n d t h e r e y o u know. B a c o n m o s t o f t h e t i m e s . T h e y ' d go a f t e r s u p p l i e s , b u t y o u know t h e y ' d go b a d i n a week. By t h e w e e k e n d y o u ' v e g o t h a y w i r e m e a l s . We h a d a h e c k o f a t i m e . T h e r e was a c a n n e r y a t t h e n o r t h end o f T o b y ' s I n l e t . We had t o s t a y t h e r e f o r a b o u t e i g h t , t e n h o u r s , n o t h i n g t o e a t . (Laugh) We j u s t h a d e n o u g h money t o g e t on t h e s t e a m b o a t a n d no money t o b u y a m e a l o n t h e s t e a m b o a t . We h a d t i m e c h e q u e s , y o u know, t h e y d i d n ' t i s s u e no r e a l c h e q u e s , r e d e e m a b l e c h e q u e s I mean. Time c h e q u e s — y o u c o l l e c t y o u r money i n t h e o f f i c e i n t o w n o r i n (New W e s t m i n s t e r ) , w h e r e v e r t h e i r o f f i c e i s . We had n o t h i n g t o e a t a l l d a y c o m i n g down f r o m t h e r e . V a n c o u v e r b e f o r e we e a t . Q u e s t i o n : Where a b o u t s i s t h a t , T o b y ' s I n l e t ? I t ' s on t h e o t h e r s i d e o f L u n d , f i r s t i n l e t a f t e r y o u p a s s L u n d . R o s e : Where d i d y o u g e t y o u r money t o go e a t when y o u g o t t o t o w n ? Oh, I b o r r o w e d f r o m somebody. I f o r g o t who t h e h e l l g a v e me some money. We w e n t t o W e s t m i n s t e r t o t r y and g e t o u r c h e q u e . We c o u l d n ' t g e t i t f o r a week o r t w o , y o u know. Had t o g e t a l a w y e r b e f o r e we c o u l d g e t o u r money. He d i d n ' t w ant t o p a y us b e c a u s e w e q u i t I g u e s s a n d no w a r n i n g . We d i d n ' t w a r n t h e m when we q u i t b e c a u s e e v e r y t h i n g was so h a y w i r e . We p a c k e d up a n d w a l k e d down. We d i d n ' t know i f we w e r e g o i n g t o g e t away o r n o t . T h e r e was no b o a t s w e r e r u n n i n g t h e r e . We had t o come o u t t o t h e mouth o f t h e i n l e t t o — t h e r e ' s no s e t t l e r s i n t h a t i n l e t t h e n y o u know. O n l y one o r t w o . T h e r e was o n e , t h e r e was a r e s e r v e t h e r e b u t n o b o d y was l i v i n g t h e r e . T h e r e was a s e t t l e r a c r o s s , two o r t h r e e h o u s e s . We w e n t and b o r r o w e d a b o a t f r o m t h a t r e s e r v e a n d we r o w e d a c r o s s w i t h i t a b o u t f o u r o r f i v e m i l e s t o g e t i n t o u c h w i t h a guy w i t h a g a s b o a t . T h e r e was e i g h t o r t e n o f u s w i t h t h i s l i t t l e b o a t ! ( L a u g h t e r ) We had t o t r a v e l 118 night time, when we came out toward the mouth you know, nothing but straight wall l i k e that, the bloody mountains. If we tipped over we'd never be able to hang onto nothing. Bad place. We heard bears and everything. You hear them making a h e l l of a racket at night you know, by the r i v e r . Quite a big r i v e r up there. And Bidwell Bay, that's i n what they c a l l the North Arm of I n l e t you know. I went there for quite awhile. And then, P i t t Lake, that's way up there too. That's another haywire place. The food's a l i t t l e better but you know, i t used to get bad i n the summer. I quit and came home. Question: You mentioned working i n the sawmills around Vancouver? Oh yeah, that's way back i n 1916, '17 when I worked there. Yeah, i t must be 1916, '11. I worked night s h i f t there. I worked day s h i f t for awhile and switched to night. I worked i n sawmills a l l over too you know whenever I get a chance. I was loading open cars i n Squamish, timber, for a sawmill there. I must have worked there for two, three months, I guess. Question: Was that r i g h t after you'd been working i n Vancouver? This was 1917, 'l8 I guess, '17 I guess. Oh yeah, w e l l , yeah that's r i g h t . Oh, I drove teams over here hauling wood. That's af t e r we were married I guess, 1918. Question: During the winter or the summer? Time l i k e t h i s . I used to have to walk to Kerrisdale where the yard i s to feed the horses and harness them. Be on the road by 7:00. Walked from here you know. No streetcar, didn't run t i l l about 7:00 I guess. I'd be ready to come out by the time the thing started to come down the road. They'd switch from the main l i n e from False Creek to Marpole, Steveston. You could hear them when they're switching o f f the farm, where I was working. Question: You mentioned working at Halfmoon Bay also? Yeah, I was there a couple of times. There was a good camp, but. I went with one fr i e n d from Saltspring Island. It's so damn lonesome you can't stay there too long you know. 119 Weekends, Sunday what the h e l l you gonna do? You walk along the bloody bush, you get homesick! (Laughter) We went down from Halfmoon Bay with that guy, I can't r e c a l l h is name, he was from Saltspring. He was just about the same age or maybe just a l i t t l e b i t older than I was. He was a whistle punk. We went down towards the beach, walk about three miles to where the main camp was, the r a i l r o a d camp. While we were i n the bush picking salmon berries a bloody eclipse came on! Got dark! (Laugh) We dicfh't know what the h e l l was going on! We didn't know, we got no newspaper or radio or nothing you know. A l l we know, the place got dark. Gives you a funny f e e l i n g you know. He says what the h e l l ' s going on, he says, am I getting b l i n d , he says. I don't know, I says to him. I crawled out of the bloody bushes i n a hurry and turned around on the bloody road. I never thought of anything. I got kind of scared! Real dark for a couple of minutes I guess. I t was kind of cloudy when I came down. I t was so damn lonesome. There was a whole bunch of us, we were a l l parted. Some went looking at the booms down there you know. Question: When did you say that was? 19.., l e t ' s see now. That'd be 1917 because we got together (married) i n 1918. I went up there early and I had to qu i t , come down to play lacrosse. They wanted me home, so I came down and played lacrosse. And I went back again a f t e r . Tape 29 Recorded: May 29, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrov; REFERENCE TO PRELIMINARY CHRONOLOGY OF WORK HISTORY Question: Do you remember when you were building nets with Mike Wilson? You mean hanging nets. That's i n Skeena River, some- time before the f o r t i e s we used to go up there. I think I mentioned that before. Well, I'm tr y i n g to r e c a l l . We used to go up early. 1924, '25, '26, '27, '28, a l l those years we were up there working early before f i s h i n g season, preparing nets and what not. Making, threading rope with f l o a t s . Helping around; i f they were behind on t h e i r work they'd ask 120 you t o hang n e t s t o c a t c h up. A l l c a n n e r i e s hung t h e i r n e t s f o r t h e i r f i s h e r m e n . I f t h e y had t h r e e hundred f i s h e r m e n t h e y had t o have t h r e e hundred n e t s r e a d y f o r them f o r t h e season. Most c a n n e r i e s had o v e r a hundred f i s h e r m e n I guess. C l a x t o n had w e l l o v e r a hundred t h e l a s t few yeais I was t h e r e . I t k e p t i n c r e a s i n g , i n c r e a s i n g e v e r y y e a r . They g o t a bunch o f Swedes up t h e r e i n — I've got t o l o o k t o r e c a l l — I k i n d o f t h i n k i t was d u r i n g t h e l a s t war days when t h e y b r o u g h t them t h e r e . They r e t u r n e d a l o t o f guys home who c o u l d n ' t h a n d l e a s a i l b o a t . They made them p r a c t i c e o u t i n f r o n t o f t h e cannery b e f o r e t h e y g o t axed. I don't know why t h e y b r o u g h t them o u t , t h e y had a l o t o f f i s h e r m e n . I guess t h e y wanted p r o b a b l y t h e i r f o u r t h s t a k e , t h e s e guys. There were a l o t o f Norwegians and Swedes i n t h e l o g g i n g camps, I t a l i a n s . There was a few o f them s t a y e d up, I mean made i t , you know. And, t h e y became good f i s h e r m e n . A l o t o f guys were s e n t back. Oh, t h e y had a whole bunch up t h e r e . What e l s e ( d i d you want t o a s k ) ? Q u e s t i o n : Do you r e c a l l when (; ,< a t what time) you were f i s h i n g a t Banks I s l a n d ? I f i s h e d f o r q u i t e a l o n g t i m e t h e r e , you know. When d i d Ronny g e t h i s b o a t — "42, i s n ' t i t ? c I must have s t a r t e d about '35 o r '36 t h e r e because th e F r a s e r , I mean t h e Skeena r u n was g r a d u a l l y d y i n g o u t from t h a t s l i d e t h e y had. They d i d n ' t know i t , t h e r e was s l i d e i n B a b i n e . Babine R i v e r I g u e s s , below Babine Lake. I t d i e d o f f t h e same way as t h e F r a s e r d i d i n 1913 — t h e r e was a s l i d e t h e r e , you know. I was one o f t h e f i r s t ones t h a t went o u t t h e r e w i t h t h e bunch out t h e r e . The f i r s t y e a r I g o t t h e r e I d i d n ' t make — done v e r y w e l l , b u t b e t t e r t h a n s t a y i n g i n Skeena. Q u e s t i o n : You d i d n ' t f i s h t h e Skeena t h o s e y e a r s you went t o Banks I s l a n d ? No. Sometimes towards t h e end o f t h e season when i t d i e s o f f q u i c k e r o u t t h e r e you p r o b a b l y f i s h one o r two weeks up Skeena a t t h e end o f t h e season b e f o r e h e a d i n g f o r home. We went o u t i n '42 when Ronny got h i s b o a t . I t was no good so we came back t o t h e Skeena and f i s h e d out i n Eddy's P a s s , I guess. You've g o t i t here (on t h e c h r o n o l o g y ) . Q u e s t i o n : There was a few y e a r s wjhen you f i s h e d a t P o r t K e l l s (on F r a s e r ) , wasn't t h e r e ? We used t o go up f o r o p e n i n g day. As soon as i t d i e s o f f we d r i f t down t o S t e v e s t o n a g a i n . We d i d w e l l up t h e r e a t t i m e s . Got so many b o a t s g o i n g up t h e r e a f t e r a b i t , g o t so I g i v e i t up. I never (?) went up t h e r e t h e l a s t few y e a r s I was f i s h i n g . 121 Eddy's Pass was i n s i d e o f Stephens I s l a n d . I don't know whether you g o t i t here o r n o t . I t ' s i n s i d e . The c h a n n e l goes round t o the n o r t h w e s t , r i g h t c l e a n around Stephens I s l a n d o u t t o t h e s o u t h . I t ' s an i s l a n d , you know, we d i d w e l l t h e r e . We d i d n ' t f i s h i n Skeena. We f i s h e d o u t s i d e a l l t h e t i m e . Ronny was j u s t about a c o u p l e o f hundred y a r d s away from me a l l t h e t i m e . F i s h t r y t o g e t a s h o r e a l l t he t i m e , h a r d l y move. You g o t t a p i c k up y o u r n e t e v e r y now and t h e n , t o k i n d o f c l e a n i t up, you know, t h e n throx-/ o u t a g a i n . Q u e s t i o n : Do you r e c a l l w h i c h y e a r s you f i s h e d a t P o r t K e l l s , o r Douglas I s l a n d ? F i r s t t i me I went t h e r e I went b r o k e . We must have s t a r t e d g o i n g up t h e r e — a whole bunch o f us g o i n g , we used t o go up Sunday n i g h t s from maybe '61 - '62 o r '63 when we s t a r t e d . We go up f o r t h e o p e n i n g say and u s u a l l y Mondays e v e r y t i m e r i g h t a l o n g . We f i s h a l l day. As soon as t h e f i s h s l a c k e n s o f f up t h e r e , we head down. We must have s t a r t e d e i t h e r one o f them y e a r s . We s t a r t e d e a r l i e r t h a n t h a t ! When d i d t h e Japanese f i r s t come down from t h e i n t e r i o r , 1953, 1954? We must have s t a r t e d way b e f o r e t h a t you know, because some o f t h e Japanese s t a r t e d g o i n g up t h e r e t o o . We'd u s u a l l y j u s t go up f o r t h e one day, t h e o p e n i n g t h a t ' s a l l because t h e f i s h used t o s c h o o l up around Douglas I s l a n d . P o r t K e l l s , I went i n t o P o r t K e l l s two o r t h r e e t i m e s ; t h e r e ' s t o o many p e o p l e t h e r e , t o o many f i s h e r m e n . There's h a r d l y anybody a t Douglas I s l a n d t h e n , you know. I made some b i g c a t c h e s t h e r e . But towards t h e end w e l l , a l o t o f p e o p l e from down below used t o go up t h e r e . I mean from down S t e v e s t o n , a l l o v e r , s t a r t e d moving up f o r t h e o p e n i n g . I t wasn't w o r t h w h i l e towards t h e end, everybody q u i t . I was t h e l a s t v one t o t r y i t , I guess. I t h i n k i t was 1970 when I went up. t h e r e l a s t — 1971 o r '70. N o t h i n g , i t wasn't w o r t h my w h i l e . Too many b o a t s . You're l u c k y i f you g e t (any f i s h ) . I f you m i s s i t you don't g e t n o t h i n g . Some guys g e t q u i t e a few, you know, th e l u c k y ones. So, I q u i t i t a l t o g e t h e r . Q u e s t i o n : W h i l e you were l i v i n g a t C h i l l i w a c k where o r a t what camps d i d you work? I was booming on t h e (Vedder) C a n a l f o r a l o n g t i m e , maybe a c o u p l e y e a r s , I guess, t h e r e . Same company you know, t t e y m u s t move around. Q u e s t i o n : You worked f o r t h e . . . . p r e t t y w e l l t h e same company f o r t h e whole t i m e you were a t C h i l l i w a c k ? Never t o o f a r away from C h i l l i w a c k ? Yes. W e l l , t h e r e was a camp t h e r e ; I'd go home e v e r y S a t u r d a y . Vedder C a n a l , you know. W e l l , i t was about s i x , seven m i l e s away from C h i l l i w a c k I guess. Something l i k e t h a t , maybe not t h a t f a r . We used t o walk on t h e r a i l r o a d t o 122 go home. T a x i was h a r d t o g e t , y o u know. Y o u c a l l a t a x i , w a i t a l l d a y . N e v e r g e t t h e r e s o m e t i m e s . So we w a l k e d . T h e y c l o s e d t h e camp down when a b l i z z a r d came o n . T h e y c l o s e t h e camp down, y o u h a v e a h e l l o f a t i m e g e t t i n g home. We'd b l o w up a n d down. We'd h a v e a r e s t , t u r n a r o u n d , g e t y o u r w i n d a nd s t a r t a g a i n . I g o t home, s h e (Rose) w e n t t o t o w n , t r y a n d g e t s u p p l i e s . W a l k i n g t h e r a i l r o a d t o o j h e r . F i n d i n g h e r way home, y o u know. R e a l b l i z z a r d . C l o s e d t h e camp down f o r f o u r (?) m o n t h s , I g u e s s t h a t y e a r . C a n ' t g e t g o i n g , t o o c o l d . S t i l l i c e o n t h e l i t t l e p o n d s a n d l a k e s i n M a r c h up t h e r e . One o f t h e w o r s t w i n t e r s I e v e r s e e n . The w h o l e r i v e r was f r o z e n a c r o s s t h e F r a s e r . Guys w e r e w a l k i n g a c r o s s . I c e c h u n k s , y o u know, jammed i n t h e r e . D r i f t down, I g u e s s . J u s t l i k e waves o n t h e b l o o d y r i v e r . I w o u l d n e v e r x^alk a c r o s s ; them g u y s w a l k e d a c r o s s . Guys h o l d i n g t h e b l o o d y p o l e s c o m i n g a c r o s s i n c a s e t h e y f a l l t h r o u g h I g u e s s . I ' d n e v e r do t h a t . T h e y d i d t h a t when t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g a t (Queen's?) I s l a n d t o o . I came home when t h e r i v e r s t a r t e d t o f r e e z e . T h e y t o l d me t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o c l o s e down a n y t i m e . No more boom work f o r me so I came home. Q u i t e a few f a l l e r s a n d b u c k e r s a n d swampers w e r e s t i l l t h e r e w o r k i n g . O v e r n i g h t t h e r i v e r f r o z e , t h e y g o t s t u c k t h e r e . Some g u y s h a d t o go down t o M i s s i o n , c r o s s o v e r . I d o n ' t know how t h e h e l l t h e y g o t home f r o m A b b o t s f o r d . R e a l b l i z z a r d s o m e t i m e s up t h e r e t h e n . No more o f t h a t k i n d o f w e a t h e r . F u n n y . I g u e s s t h e r e ' s t o o many f a c t o r i e s a n d one t h i n g a n d a n o t h e r t h e r e k e e p s i t warm o r t i m e s a r e c h a n g i n g , I g u e s s . I h a d t o f i n d s o m e t h i n g t o do a t home. I u s e d t o c u t c o r d w o o d h e r e a n d s e l l . When t h i n g s g e t b a d y o u c a n ' t g e t n o t h i n g . W e l l , y o u c o u l d n ' t f i n d w o r k i f y o u d i d go o u t , t o o much d i s c r i m i n a t i o n t h e n , y o u know. L o g g i n g camps and m i l l s was a b o u t t h e o n l y p l a c e y o u c o u l d g e t o n . I was k i n d o f l u c k y when I was up C h i l l i w a c k . I g o t on w e l l . The r e a s o n why I c o u l d g e t o n a t a n y t h i n g up t h e r e was I u s e d t o p l a y s o c c e r a n d b a s e b a l l a n d l a c r o s s e w i t h them. W e l l , I g r e w up t h e r e . When I was a t s c h o o l up t h e r e I g o t p r e t t y v / e l l a c q u a i n t e d w i t h w h i t e a n d I n d i a n s up t h e r e . I was t h e o n l y I n d i a n r u n n e r o n t h e r e l a y t e a m t h e y h a d . C h i l l i w a c k was one o f t h e b e s t i n B. C. t h e n , y o u know. I n e v e r was s t u c k f o r a j o b up t h e r e . O v e r h e r e ( V a n c o u v e r a r e a ) , r e a l l y r o u g h . Y o u c o u l d n ' t g e t no w o r k h e r e h a r d l y . A s s o o n a s t h e y f i n d o u t y o u ' r e a f i s h e r m e n , t h e y won't l o o k a t y o u . They know y o u ' r e n o t g o i n g t o go o n s t e a d y . I t r i e d t i m e a n d a g a i n a r o u n d h e r e i n t h e m i l l s . T h e y t o l d me y o u ' l l n e v e r f i n d no w o r k , t h e g o v e r n m e n t w i l l l o o k a f t e r y o u ! W e l l , I s t a r t e d b e a c h c o m b i n g a n d w o r k i n g o n my own, y o u know. I made a go o f i t . I made p r e t t y g o o d o n b e a c h - c o m b i n g e v e n a f t e r t h e y l i c e n s e d i t . I p i c k e d up s e v e r a l booms, k e p t q u i t e a f e w b o y s f r o m h e r e w o r k i n g f o r me. I p a i d them s e v e n t y - f i v e c e n t s an h o u r , t h e y w e r e o n l y g e t t i n g 123 t h i r t y , f o r t y c e n t s an hour e l s e w h e r e . J u s t t o h e l p them ou t . I don't know i f i t done any good. We used t o have a' g r e a t b i g boom o v e r h e r e , and I g o t t a g e t h e l p from t h r e e o r f o u r l o c a l boys t o boom t h e l o g s , t o move t h e boom. S t i l l , y o u 're r e a d y , t h e same as you do i n l o g g i n g camp. You p u t s w i f t e r s on e v e r y boom. Chained up so t h e y wouldn't b r e a k t h e n you tow i t away. Q u e s t i o n : A t t h e t i m e you b r o k e your l e g , were you o f f work f o r a w h i l e ? W e l l , I c o u l d n ' t work, I d i d n ' t work t i l l March, I guess . I broke i t i n September. I c o u l d n ' t f i s h , I had t o q u i t . I o n l y had a l i t t l e o v e r a hundred d o l l a r s t h a t y e a r . We had a l o t o f ducks t o e a t . We had a few t h i n g s t h a t t h e o l d l a d y (Rose) p u t up. Jam and w e l l , b o t t l e d salmon, a few s a l t salmon. We managed. I n F e b r u a r y we t r i e d t o g e t r e l i e f b u t t h e y wouldn't g i v e i t t o u s . 1929 when I broke my l e g . 1930 I was k i n d of l i m p i n g around y e t when I went up n o r t h . I broke i t a second time — I f e l l i n t h e h a t c h o u t i n the g u l f a f t e r I came back from n o r t h . I g o t , what t h e h e l l d i d t h e y g i v e us — $10 o r something? I had t o pay i t back, t h e r e l i e f t h a t t i m e I br o k e my l e g . $10 w o r t h , o r $10.50, something l i k e t h a t . Rose: A sack o f f l o u r , f i v e pounds o f sugar and r i c e . J u s t t h a t once, a i n ' t i t ? We had about s i x o r seven k i d s t o f e e d , more t h a n t h a t , I guess. Ed: I s t a r t e d t o c u t c o r k b a l l s t h e y c a l l i t , make new f l o a t s you know.- . . Rose: Then t h e I n d i a n agents were s i t t i n g i n t h e o f f i c e g e t t i n g a l l t h e money and t h e p e o p l e hungry. Ed: V i c (Guerin) and I were d o i n ' t h a t . He was h e l p i n g me Tmake f l o a t s ) . Rose: Agents and s e c r e t a r i e s and e v e r y t h i n g . Ed: I used t o s i t down on a box and c u t w h i l e he s p l i t . We delivered i t t o a Vancouver Cannery, Acme. We made p r e t t y good on t h a t you know, enough f o r t h e w i n t e r . Rose: The poor I n d i a n s d i d n ' t t h i n k t h a t t h e I n d i a n a gents and t h e i r s e c r e t a r i e s were g e t t i n g a l l t h e money from t h e government i n s t e a d o f coming t h r o u g h t h e I n d i a n s . They weren't d o i n g a n y t h i n g , i s n ' t i t ? Ed: I don't know, I don't a sk! W e l l , . . . . Rose: I wonder what t h e y were- s i t t i n g t h e r e f o r as a g e n t s . I a l w a y s wonder. What were t h e agents f o r ? They never l o o k a f t e r t h e I n d i a n s . 124 Ed: Sure! They gave us $3.20 a month r e l i e f ! (Laughter) That's what they got, you know, $3.20 worth. Rose: That's for the people that can't hardly move. Ed: Destitute people and o l d people. We never got any cash. A l i t t l e sugar, about that much i n a bag, a l i t t l e r i c e , a l i t t l e brown beans, baking powder, l i t t l e sugar. What else — that's about a l l , I guess, maybe a l i t t l e f l o u r . You gotta l i v e on that for a month. Huh! Well, things were cheap then. Rose: Now the Indians i s j u s t now waking up. And most of the agents don't want to help these people that's t r y i n g to break that. White people getting paid big s a l a r i e s every year when i t should be going to the Indians. I t ' s going to the white people that's working i n the parliament buildings a l l over. For what I wonder? Ed: Well, mama, i t sort of works two ways you know. When tEey started funding Indians, well what the h e l l were they doing? They were drawing big s a l a r i e s , the Indians that worked. That P a u l l guy, $22,000 every year. These guys (UBCIC) were getting $12,000, $15,000 i n town; t h e i r secretaries were getting $6,000, $7,000 a year. Accountants $16,000 a year. What the h e l l good did they do? Rose: Nothing. Ed: They got f i e l d s t a f f , f i e l d o f f i c e r s going around asking you questions about land claims. What the h e l l ! The band should look a f t e r that. That was a bloody farce that thing was. Sending out people to ask you questions about how much land you l o s t . What the h e l l ! We know how much land we l o s t . We l o s t the whole of B. C. as far as I know! They had a whole bunch of people going around doing that. Too much. I wonder how many bloody secretaries they have up there? They a l l draw $6,000, $7,000, $8,000 a,year. We should have kicked them out long ago. Kick them out the same as they do the Indian Department o f f i c i a l s . I wonder what they'd say i f i t was brought up to them l i k e that. Question: Were there any times when you didn't, couldn't or didn't want to work....during winter dances, for sports or other reasons? Well, I never r e a l l y took i n t e r e s t i n Indian dances before that, (before Rose became a dancer). I used to go and 125 watch, but I only took i n t e r e s t i n the dances a f t e r she became one. But, they're mostly i n the winter and i t ' s o f f season for fishermen and I never bothered to look for a job anywhere else. I was hopping (hop kilns) and one •thing, you know. Cut wood at home. Make a few d o l l a r s cutting wood. Rose; I t was so nice here long ago. Not l i k e now. Old people had a l o t of fun. Danced every night from house to house. They never used to c a l l outsiders, Lummi's or anybody. Just dance here, have a good time amongst them- selves. Ed; There was no jobs outside the reserve hardly, you Know. I never, I wouldn't leave a job i f there was sports you know. I f I had something to work on I'd work, make a d o l l a r for myself instead of wasting i t . A l o t of times they t r i e d to c a l l me o f f work, or even i f I was working for myself I wouldn't. That's the reason why I quit from p u l l i n g i n the canoes. Too much waste time. You're away from one or two weeks at a time. I could be making a d o l l a r or two just even cutting wood here. Later on I'd go up Skeena. I did a l l r i g h t cutting wood for these Chinese before they started using o i l . Does that answer your question? Not quite?! I'd be crazy to run my car a l l the way down to Coupville on the American side somewhere. Leave my job, with a chance of getting fir e d ? No. Just stay r i g h t there, stay working. They even sent for me to come down and play lacrosse i n the Indian Sports. I wouldn't come down. That's my work, making my l i v i n g . Fooling around, that's a l l i t i s you know. They wouldn't pay my expenses, I'm not going to t r a v e l on my own. Share my expenses, w e l l , I might think i t over, but I doubt i f I ever .. Well, when you're r a i s i n g a family you can't afford to leave your job. A l o t of guys think I'm f o o l i s h f o r not coming down when they asked me. I don't think i t was that f o o l i s h . My family needed the extra d o l l a r . Question: The type of jobs you've had, you had a l o t of contact with your family and with friends a l l along? Oh, I did everything else. I didn't give i t a l l (information about work). I've got to read over what you've got printed before I give i t a l l . I worked for the Ci t y of Chilliwack, worked for trucking people — swamper they c a l l them — hauling pulpwood. Many others — when I was up Chilliwack. Well, I worked on the farms too! (laugh) Next to nothing there when you work for a farmer. They say they don't make money, but gee, they get to go for a b i g holiday a f t e r the season's over. The guy who's supposed to seed for us (Musqueam land i n Ladner) i s down i n C a l i f o r n i a and we're waiting for him to seed. He l i v e s i n Lulu Island. 126 Yeah, I worked building a b i g septic tank r i g h t there i n the c i t y (Chilliwack). Seventy-five cents an hour, that's more than they were getting i n the logging camp. I was laying sewer pipes. A l l shovel or pick work. I went back to the camp a f t e r that was over though. The guy took me back. Can't l e t go of a good boom man. I only did that because they give you more money. They give you f i f t y cents an hour i n the Ci t y of Chilliwack. I was working with Jack Chenoir, Francis James and a whole bunch of us working up there working fo r the c i t y . I quit booming that time. He didn't l i k e that, kind of said you're not going to work for me no more. Okay, there's a l o t of other jobs, I says to him. I went back there looking for a job. Sure, sure. He used to c a l l me 'Head', he don't c a l l me 'Ed'. Frenchman - Gauthier, he can't say 'Ed*, he used to c a l l me 'Head'. Everybody started c a l l i n g me 'Head* a f t e r . Question: What you haven't t o l d me about i s your farming i n the l a s t few years since you sold your boat? I thought maybe i f I could make a d o l l a r well, i t would help me because I don't know how long I ' l l l i v e . Well, we l i v e d on i t (c a t t l e raising) anyways, and helped my children whenever they needed i t out of the meat. I never even figured out what I made. I got a l l my b i l l s and what not. I haven't even checked whether I was ahead or behind. I think I was a l i t t l e b i t ahead. I f I had my own feed and my own place to work, we l l , there's money i n i t you know. Even i f you got your feed cheaper than what you get from Co-ops and one thing and another—Buckerfield's. They're h i t t i n g the farmers. Not only me. I t got too bad i n the end and I thought I better get out of that. I sold i t , p r a c t i c a l l y gave my l a s t seven (cattle) away. I kept three, and I sold seven. We had a fridge f u l l and we gave P r i s c i l l a one. If I was able to look a f t e r i t myself and stay r i g h t there, I would have been able to ra i s e better meat you know, I mean c a t t l e . But I had l i t t l e Mikey (grandson) looking a f t e r i t . Sometimes I don't think they got watered. I t seemed to me they got stunned one time, you know. Good breed of c a t t l e l i k e that, i t should be easy to help fatten them up. At times I worked overtime to bring them up. Water was one of the main things when you're r a i s i n g c a t t l e . I f you don't give i t to them they won't gain weight. You gotta give them a l o t of s a l t so they drink water. What the h e l l ' s the use of giving s a l t when there's no water. I had minerals there. I thought A l was giving i t to them a l l the time. I went and he had a big bunch i n the sack yet. I said what the h e l l ' s that? Oh, that's the minerals you picked up, he says. How come you haven't been giving i t to them? Oh, I guess I forgot i t , or Mike forgot i t , he says. That's something they should have, you know. Towards the end they started chewing up his apple trees and took the bark o f f I That's the lack of mineral they didn't have, you know. Any c a t t l e would do that. In the i n t e r i o r when they're getting the s a l t and grain you know. 127 I f I c o u l d g e t i t (the l a n d a t Ladner) cheap enough, I t h i n k I'd buy ( c a t t l e ) . I f I g e t a good chance a t c a t t l e . L i k e t h e r e was a bunch, t h i r t y head a l l c a l v i n g i n A p r i l and May f o r $135 a p i e c e . W e l l , you g e t double t h a t much i n f o u r o r f i v e months you know, s i x months. I t h o u g h t what t h e heck's t h e use o f b u y i n g i t . You g e t t h a t many head o f c a t t l e you've got t o have two ~ t h r e e hundred a c r e s t o l o o k a f t e r them p r o p e r l y . So I d i d n ' t b o t h e r . Then I t h o u g h t I s h o u l d have went and asked t h e c o u n c i l what k i n d o f d e a l I c o u l d make. I s t i l l c o u l d do i t . I'm j u s t w a i t i n g f o r t h i n g s t o change you know. Heck, I c o u l d r e n t t h e Tsawwassen l a n d t h e r e (Tsawwassen R e s e r v e ) . P e a r l ( W i l l i a m s ) g e t s $1,000 f o r e i g h t a c r e s . Heck, i f I p a i d t h a t much o u t I c o u l d make money, you know. Won't h a r d l y c o s t you n o t h i n g t o f e e d them, g r e a t b i g p a s t u r e l i k e t h a t . $1,000, gee, t h a t ' s cheap. 12 8 C o n t e n t o f t h e s e two t a p e s c o v e r s s u b j e c t s s k i p p e d o v e r i n e a r l i e r s e s s i o n s . E d a d d e d i n f o r m a t i o n w h e r e he c o n s i d e r e d i t n e c e s s a r y , b e g i n n i n g w i t h t h e f i r s t l a r g e g ap. He r e l a t e d h i s i n f o r m a t i o n t o s p e c i f i c a c t i v i t i e s , y e a r , a nd l o c a t i o n more t h a n t o p l a c e o f r e s i d e n c e o r f a m i l y c o m p o s i t i o n . A s t r i k i n g f e a t u r e i s t h e v o l u m e o f m a t e r i a l r e c o r d e d i n one s e s s i o n b y e a c h g r a n d p a r e n t — t h i s was one o f t h e m o s t p r o d u c t i v e s e s s i o n s . Once a g a i n , t h e v a r i e t y o f w o r k i s v e r y e v i d e n t , c o n - f i r m i n g t h e r e s o u r c e f u l n e s s and i n d u s t r y o f my g r a n d p a r e n t s ' w o r k p a t t e r n . B o t h e m p h a s i z e d t h e s c a r c i t y o f j o b s a n d i n c o m e w h i c h n e c e s s i t a t e d t h e h a r d w o r k t h e i r p r e v i o u s t r a i n i n g a n d l i f e s t y l e p r e p a r e d t h e m f o r . The c h r o n o l o g i e s , w h i c h h a d b e e n drawn up p r i m a r i l y t o a s s i s t i n a n a l y z i n g d a t a , p r o v e d i n v a l u a b l e a s s e t s i n a s s i s t i n g E d a n d Rose w i t h r e c a l l . E d commented, s a y i n g t h e y w e r e a g o o d i d e a , e n a b l i n g h i m t o draw f r o m p a s t e v e n t s a nd f i l l t h e i n f o r - m a t i o n g a p s . T h i s m e t h o d o f r e c a l l a l s o a i d e d i n p r o d u c i n g a f i r m e r s e q u e n t i a l f o u n d a t i o n f o r f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n i n g and a n a l y s i s . The c h r o n o l o g y was i n s t r u m e n t a l i n d r a w i n g h i m i n t o c l o s e r i n v o l v e m e n t w i t h t h e u l t i m a t e d i r e c t i o n o f r e s e a r c h . Q u e s t i o n i n g became l e s s f r e q u e n t and l e s s d i r e c t i v e . A t t h i s p o i n t I was n e c e s s a r y o n l y t o r e c o r d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n and a s k b a s i c q u e s t i o n s t o c l a r i f y o r r e l a t e m a t e r i a l , a n d d e t e r m i n e s i g n i f i c a n t d e t a i l s . G r a n d f a t h e r h a d a c t u a l l y assumed c o n t r o l o f t h e i n t e r v i e w f o r m a t . He became more p o s i t i v e o f t h e o u t c o m e , and more c o n f i d e n t a b o u t g i v i n g a d d i t i o n a l i n f o r m a t i o n . I n f o r m a t i o n f r o m h i s c h r o n o l o g y was c r o s s - r e f e r e n c e d 129 w i t h G r a n d m o t h e r ' s b e f o r e i n t e r v i e w i n g h e r w i t h h e r c h r o n o l o g y . T h i s was done t o d a t e and v e r i f y i n f o r m a t i o n , t o d e t e c t a r e a s w i t h s i m i l a r i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h c o u l d be e x p a n d e d , t o f i n d l e a d s f o r more e x p l i c i t q u e s t i o n i n g o f h e r h i s t o r y . 130 4.2 Tapes 30 and 31 Rose Sparrow June 25, 19 75 On t h e same day, j u s t b e f o r e Ed was i n t e r v i e w e d w i t h h i s c h r o n o l o g y , I had r e c o r d e d a tape w i t h Rose (Tape 2 7 ) . Her c h r o n o l o g y was n o t used a t t h i s t i me f o r n o t enough d a t a had been c o l l e c t e d t o make i t w o r k a b l e . I f e l t a l s o t h a t she s h o u l d be g i v e n an o p p o r t u n i t y t o r e c a l l more i n f o r m a t i o n on h e r own b e f o r e i n t r o d u c i n g t h e c h r o n o l o g y . She had seemed u n c e r t a i n what the c h r o n o l o g y was f o r a t f i r s t , and how t o r e l a t e t o i t when I mentioned a t some p o i n t t h a t I was w r i t i n g up a l i s t o f j o b s and work t a k e n from t h e tape r e c o r d i n g s . S i n c e she had been p r e s e n t w h i l e G r a n d f a t h e r was u s i n g h i s - c h r o n o l o g y , she had become a t l e a s t s l i g h t l y f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e i d e a o f r e l a t i n g t o her own c h r o n o l o g y . She now seemed q u i t e a t ease w i t h h e r own, and i n t e r e s t e d i n d e c i p h e r i n g what I had w r i t t e n . Grandmother and I s a t w i t h h e r c h r o n o l o g y s p r e a d o u t i n f r o n t o f us w h i l e she l o o k e d o v e r t h e e n t i r e c h r o n o l o g y b e f o r e any q u e s t i o n s were asked. I e x p l a i n e d how t h e c h r o n o l o g y would be u s e f u l f o r c h e c k i n g i n f o r m a t i o n and d a t e s as I had done w i t h Ed d u r i n g the p r e c e d i n g s e s s i o n . We worked t o g e t h e r w i t h h e r c h r o n o l o g y , s i n c e she seemed t o r e spond more r e a d i l y i f s p e c i f i c a reas where i n f o r m a t i o n was m i s s i n g were p o i n t e d o u t . I c o u l d t h e n ask q u e s t i o n s w h i c h would r e l a t e h e r work and a c t i v i t y t o h e r f a m i l y , b i r t h o r d e r o f c h i l d r e n , Ed and h i s work, o r h e r own p r e v i o u s work as i n d i c a t e d on t h e c h r o n o l o g y . Q u e s t i o n i n g was d i r e c t e d t o h e r c h r o n o l o g y f i r s t , w i t h e x p a n s i o n o f d e t a i l wherever p o s s i b l e . A t t i m e s we d i s c u s s e d c e r t a i n areas and i n f o r m a t i o n b r i e f l y e i t h e r b e f o r e r e c o r d i n g 131 q u e s t i o n and r e s p o n s e , o r a f t e r r e c o r d i n g t h e q u e s t i o n . R e f e r e n c e t o u s e o f q u e s t i o n s l i s t e d d u r i n g a n a l y s i s o f h e r t r a n s c r i p t s a n d c h r o n o l o g y o c c u r r e d w h e n e v e r s h e s t o p p e d v o l u n t e e r i n g i n f o r m a t i o n . G r a n d f a t h e r ' s c h r o n o l o g y was a l s o k e p t c l o s e a t h a n d , b u t f o r my r e f e r e n c e o n l y . S p e c i f i c q u e s t i o n s w e r e d i r e c t e d f i r s t t o t y p e s , l o c a t i o n s a n d d u r a t i o n o f w o r k d u r i n g e a r l i e r y e a r s . Q u e s t i o n i n g t h e n s h i f t e d f r o m d i r e c t r e f e r e n c e t o w o r k t o p l a c e s o f r e s i d e n c e . T h i s was done w i t h t h e i d e a o f i n t r o d u c i n g a new r e f e r e n c e p o i n t w h i c h c o u l d s t i m u l a t e a n o t h e r a r e a o f r e c a l l r e l a t i n g t o w o r k . I a l s o s p e c u l a t e d on t h e p o s s i b i l i t y o f r e l a t i n g G r a n d m o t h e r ' s i n f o r m a t i o n on p l a c e s a nd e v e n t s w i t h E d ' s s e q u e n c e o f t i m e and p l a c e . 132 Tape 30 Recorded: June 25, 1975 Mrs. Rose Sparrow Musqueam QUESTIONS RELATED TO PRELIMINARY OUTLINE OF WORK CHRONOLOGY Question: (Could you t e l l me about the d i f f e r e n t canneries you have worked at, and when you worked?) Let's see now, we worked i n t h i s cannery there. I t was f i r s t year I went to work there, that was before Myrtle was born. You got i t (recorder) on now? And I don't know what year. I think i t was 1919, we worked at a cannery at Sea Island. I think that cannery used to be M i l l a r d ' s Cannery where I worked. Everything was done by hand. There wasn't any ir o n chink or anything l i k e that, you know. The Chinese used to j u s t cut the heads o f f and open the stomach of the f i s h and throw i t i n our bins, you know, b i g bins. And we had to gut the darn things, take the guts o f f , and clean i t then shove i t into the next tank. Then we clean i t , take guts o f f , and scrape i t , clean i t . We had to do a l l that. There wasn't any machinery. I t was a l l done by hand. That was very hard work. I don't know i f we were getting twenty-five cents an hour, must have been twenty-five cents because we used to work for hours and hours you know. No matter what f i s h , how big they were, we did take the guts out ourselves. There wasn't any too much of machinery, most of the f i l l i n g was done by hand. Question: Was that cans f o r the f i s h ? Yeah, by the Japanese. There wasn't much Indians there that l i k e d to hand f i l l because you had to contract on that. You get punches for that. So none of us went i n f o r that. Question: Were you j u s t washing f i s h then? Just washing f i s h , yeah. Cleaning them and washing them, that was a very awkward job. We worked a l l hours from morning and go back again a f t e r suppertime. There was no overtime. Straight time r i g h t through. 133 Question; Could you work pretty well any hours you want then? Yeah, we worked a l l hours of the day, you know, along t i l l about eight or nine o'clock at night, I guess then we qu i t . Question: Could you t e l l me again about your work i n the cannery at New Westminster? I worked i n New Westminster, I forgot the name. I don*t even know the name of the cannery there. I was just goofy yet. Question; Was that your f i r s t job? F i r s t job i n a cannery, away from home. And, uh I came with a aunt of mine. Her people were working there and we stopped by that (cannery). And so we weren't hired, we ju s t went to v i s i t . But i t was, then she stayed there, she got a chance to work you know. So they hired anybody, didn't go by age. As long as you was able to wash f i s h or do some- thing. So at f i r s t t h i s , he was an Indian boss, he put me on as a hand f i l l i n g and I was too slow. So he changed me to washing f i s h . I don't know, I didn't have any sense or nothing. Nobody t o l d me I had to have boots to wash f i s h . So I was washing f i s h with j u s t my ordinary shoes and I was soaking wet, washing f i s h . They never t o l d me you have to go and get boots and apron you know. I t was very f o o l i s h and I didn't know any better because I was j u s t a k i d . Never been to work before i n my l i f e . So I worked there f o r awhile. And one f e l l a there, worked there, he came along gave me apron. I was a l l r i g h t then, but my feet was always wet. So, i t was i n the f a l l . Must have been September I guess, October, something l i k e that. I t was i n the f a l l , getting cold. So I got, I used to have t o n s i l s . So both of my t o n s i l s swole up, got cold. And I was so sick I couldn't swallow water or nothing. So they put me i n the hospital i n (New) Westminster, St. Mary's. I was there, they waited t i l l i t went down before they cut my t o n s i l s out. I don't know, I was there t i l l j u s t before Christmas i n that h o s p i t a l . I was just put there and forgotten that I was i n there. Just stayed there. Well they didn't mind keeping me there; the nurses, I got to know them. They used to make me help them pass trays around i n the h o s p i t a l , you know. They give me, and I used to look a f t e r t h i s o l d p r i e s t . They used to c a l l him Father Lamontin I think or was i t Lamonting, he was an o l d , o l d p r i e s t . He was just bed- ridden i n there. I think he must have had cancer because he had a hole i n the side of the stomach. And I used to bring his food i n there, and take his tray out you know. I was there f o r , i t was just about a week or so before Christmas before they came a f t e r me. And for some reason, what I made i n the cannery I didn't get i t . I guess the lady that was taking care of me took i t , 'cause you know for my board or my fare or whatever i t was. I didn't get nothing a f t e r I got 134 better you know, so I went home. And that was the end of that cannery workI (laughter) Question: Did you go home to Chilliwack? Did you go by yourself? Went home to Chilliwack, yeah. She came a f t e r me, t h i s woman (who had brought me down to New Westminster). Yeah, she's my grand aunt. She came picked me up, took me home. Question; Is that the same lady who brought you down to New Westminster? Yeah, the same lady that came down with me, to see her people working i n that cannery. She was Mrs. Alec Charley. Yeah, she l i v e d there (Chilliwack area, Kohkaplat). I t was my grandparents' daughter-in-law. Mhm, i t was t h e i r daughter-in- law, So I got home. Question: (Was there mainly Indians working at that cannery?) I t was a l l Japanese. I t was quite a l i t t l e bunch. Question: (That was your f i r s t cannery job?) Yeah, I never got a job because I was too young to go out, I worked helping them with housework a l i t t l e b i t and everything. But i n the summer we used to work out. Work out i n the farm you know, weeding. Weeding for farmers you know. That was a l l i n the summertime. 'Cause, uh, I was going to school then, but I used to work a f t e r holidays. I used to go to school at a l i t t l e school at Chilliwack. That's an o l d l i t t l e school they had there. Question: Do you remember what years that was or how o l d you were? Well, I started school when I was about, oh, nine or ten years o l d , I guess. I was quite old when I started school there at that. And I l e f t maybe when I was twelve or th i r t e e n . In that picture there (refers to photograph on mantle) -— and I l e f t school again when them old people took me out. They didn't want to send me back again. See, r e a l l y had no regular guardian them days. Whoever once said don't send her to school that was i t . Nobody was behind me that knew any better to keep sending me to school. You know, I was j u s t on my own, and they didn't care less as long as I was a l i v e that's a l l . Then no future. But af t e r I got a l i t t l e older I began go looking for jobs. Like what I was t e l l i n g you, farm work and a l l that. Question; Did you go looking with someone or on your own? A l l us g i r l s went working together. Work at the farm 135 'cause there was no jobs for us around at that time. I t was during the war. Well, the war was on you know, but we wasn't hired to go do heavy jobs or anything l i k e that, you know. We did get on the working f o r a plant there that was drying vegetables, l i k e carrots, turnips, potatoes. They were drying i t i n that hop k i l n there, where they dry the hops. And they used that plant, and they had machinery there, and we worked there. They used to put the potatoes through these b i g peelers, b i g round things. Runs by machine and peel potatoes. Then they come out from there along a wide b e l t you know and we kind of clean them l i t t l e spots, you know that the machine didn't get o f f . And from there i t goes through the cutter, about j u s t l i k e the s i z e of these, what you — the; fryers (potato chips) they make now, you see them i n the sacks. Like that. Then we put them on the trays. Trays there stacked up, trays you know, about four layers high, and you spread the potatoes there and then you shove them i n a dryer. And they go there, and they dry i n there. And when they come out, they're j u s t dry, you could almost see through the potatoes. I t ' s dried up and i t ' s j u s t l i k e i t ' s kind of yellow, you know. It's dried r i g h t through. I t doesn't shrink or anything, i t ' s j u s t nice and glossy looking, about the s i z e of these fryers you buy them. You go to the factory and buy a bag of fryers i f you want to s e l l at a concession store. You want a bag of f r y e r s , well that's the way they used to be, only difference i s they're dryer. And when they come out from there we put them i n f i v e pound cans by hand. And we send — we f i l l i t up, weigh i t and then go through a machine, get l i d s on and they ship them away, ship them away to the overseas to the war, army. That's what we were doing that was ju s t three d i f f e r e n t kind of vegetable. We worked a l l , pretty near a l l winter and a l l summer that time. That's the same year I came down here. That wasn't, we l l , that wasn't too bad. We were getting $2 an hour up there. Oh, $2 a day I Oh, we thought i t was a b i g money you know. Mhm. That was the l a s t job I did up at Chilliwack. Question; Who were you working with at t h i s farm or plant? Oh, j u s t a bunch of people. G i r l s you know, white g i r l s and Indian g i r l s , but just a few I knew by heart the names of. Emma Joe and Maggie and Sarah Jimmy, and one o l d lady there, she was Louisa. What's her name now, Cha r l i e , I guess. Margaret, I don't know, Dan or something. So many of them, I only knew the ones that were my r e l a t i o n s . But there was a l o t of women working there because there 1 were .no ,rmen around to do the work. Even the f i e l d when you go, ju s t o l d , old men that couldn * t go to war. They were the only ones d r i v i n g team you know, to go pick up the potatoes and turnips and things l i k e , from farmers, they bought i t from farmers. A l l the farmers sold t h e i r potatoes, carrots and turnips to t h i s plant to prepare to send overseas. I don't know how many years i t run, that plant. That's the only way they could get t h e i r food out there, the can. 136 Question; I t was j u s t the one year you worked there? Yeah, j u s t the one winter and spring. Question; Then you came down to Vancouver. Was that when you were married? Yeah. Yeah, I came over here. That's the same year we started working i n the cannery. Question; Millard's Cannery? Yeah. But a f t e r that, and a f t e r that I went to l i v e up Chilliwack you know. When I had Myrtle I l i v e d up there and the old f o l k s . Both me and Dad (Ed). He done, he was on logging camps up there. And I went from one camp to the other with him. The people had l i t t l e shacks here and there where they l i v e d r i g h t close together. The woman worked, cooked for t h e i r husbands. That's w