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UBC Theses and Dissertations

Work histories of a Coast Salish couple Sparrow, Leona Marie 1976

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WORK HISTORIES OF A COAST SALISH COUPLE  b  y  LEONA MARIE SPARROW B.A., U n i v e r s i t y o f B r i t i s h Columbia, 1973  A THESIS SUBMITTED IN PARTIAL FULFILLMENT OF THE  REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DEGREE OF MASTER OF ARTS  in THE  FACULTY OF GRADUATE STUDIES  (Department o f Anthropology  and Sociology)  We accept t h i s t h e s i s as conforming t o the r e q u i r e d  THE  standard  UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA May, 1976  In p r e s e n t i n g t h i s  thesis  an advanced degree at the I  Library shall  in p a r t i a l  the U n i v e r s i t y of B r i t i s h Columbia,  make i t  freely available  f u r t h e r agree t h a t p e r m i s s i o n  for  for  I agree  r e f e r e n c e and  f o r e x t e n s i v e copying o f  this  that  study. thesis  s c h o l a r l y purposes may be granted by the Head of my Department or  by h i s of  f u l f i l m e n t o f the requirements f o r  representatives.  this  written  thesis  It  i s understood that copying or p u b l i c a t i o n  f o r f i n a n c i a l gain s h a l l  permission.  Department of The  University of B r i t i s h  20 75 W e s b r o o k P l a c e V a n c o u v e r , Canada V6T 1W5  Date  ftfa,  tf%  Columbia  not be allowed without my  ii  ABSTRACT T h i s t h e s i s attempts t o d e p i c t time space i n the l i f e o f two s e l e c t e d from the Musqueam Reserve.  and analyze an area o r Coast S a l i s h informants  A s e r i e s o f i n t e r v i e w s w i t h the  informants produced an e x t e n s i v e and comprehensive account of t h e i r work p a t t e r n s ,  i n f o r m a t i o n on other c l o s e l y r e l a t e d  facets  of the l i f e s t y l e o f the i n f o r m a n t s , and t h e i r r e l a t i o n s h i p t o v a r i o u s c u l t u r e groups.  Perhaps the most important  revealed  the informants' concepts o f s e l f i n  society.  are i m p l i c i t —  Through these t e x t s  h i s t o r y can be seen emerging. in  a Native perspective This perspective  features  of recent  i s more e v i d e n t  t h e v e r b a t i m t r a n s c r i p t s than i t would be i n a c l o s e l y  text.  edited  The a n a l y s i s attempts t o demonstrate the r e l a t i o n s h i p o f  work h i s t o r y t o t o t a l l i f e h i s t o r y , t h e importance o f t h e c u l t u r a l l y r e l a t e d p a t t e r n s and c y c l e s  t o work.  iii  TABLE OF CONTENTS Page L I S T OF TABLES Chapter 1.  INTRODUCTION  1  2.  OUTLINE OF METHOD  5  3.  I N I T I A L INTERVIEWS ON WORK HISTORY PROJECT  4.  5.  6.  7.  . . .  16  3.1 Tape 2 2 : Rose S p a r r o w  17  3.2 Tape 2 3 : E d S p a r r o w  28  3.3 Tape 2 4 : E d S p a r r o w  46  3.4 T a p e s 25 a n d 26: E d S p a r r o w  61  3.5 Tape 2 7 : Rose S p a r r o w  84  INTERVIEWS WITH WORK CHRONOLOGY  105  4.1 T a p e s 28 a n d 2 9 : E d S p a r r o w  107  4.2 T a p e s 30 a n d 3 1 : Rose S p a r r o w  130  E A R L I E R TRANSCRIPTS RELATED TO WORK HISTORY  . . .  163  Tape 2: E d a n d Rose S p a r r o w  164  T a p e s 3, 8, a n d 9: Rose S p a r r o w  172  ADDITIONAL INTERVIEWS WITH WORK CHRONOLOGIES  . .  190  Tape 3 2 , i n p a r t : E d a n d Rose S p a r r o w  192  Tape 3 3 , i n p a r t : Rose S p a r r o w  199  SUMMARY INTERVIEWS Tape 3 3 , i n p a r t :  215 Rose S p a r r o w  217  T a p e 3 4 : Rose S p a r r o w  220  Tape 3 5 : E d S p a r r o w  223  iv Chapter 8.  Page SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS  229  M e t h o d Summary  230  D a t a Summary  233  Conclusions  249  BIBLIOGRAPHY  256  APPENDICES: A-JL WORK CHRONOLOGY — A  2  Rose S p a r r o w  WORK CHRONOLOGY —  B  WORK SEQUENCE —  C  GENEALOGY  E d Sparrow  Rose a n d E d S p a r r o w . . .  259 26 3 265 266  V  L I S T OF T A B L E S  TABLE I II  PAGE C U L T U R A L F E A T U R E S I N D E X W I T H PAGE T E X T S OF T A P E S 2 , 3, 8, 9 MALE AND  F E M A L E WORK C A T E G O R I E S  REFERENCES  TO  D E R I V E D FROM T E X T S  188 234  ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS I would to  like  t o express  my t h a n k s  and a p p r e c i a t i o n  t h e Musqueam Band a n d Band C o u n c i l f o r t h e u s e o f e q u i p -  ment a n d f a c i l i t i e s A special  thank  utilized  you i s extended  encouragement and support time. ledge  T o my g r a n d p a r e n t s , t h e time  preparing  this  while completing  throughout a special  and knowledge thesis  t o my f a m i l y  they  this  thesis.  for their  t h e r e s e a r c h and w r i t i n g "huychx qu" w  t o acknow-  h a v e s h a r e d w i t h me i n  1  Chapter 1 INTRODUCTION A number o f good accounts  o f Coast S a l i s h c u l t u r e are  a v a i l a b l e b u t t h e r e i s a g r e a t d e a l of knowledge and experience which has e i t h e r never been documented o r which i s i n a c c u r a t e , misunderstood, and not r e p r e s e n t a t i v e o f how the people see themselves.  P a r t o f the d e f i c i e n c y e x i s t s because much i n f o r -  mation i s not c o n s i d e r e d by the S a l i s h people of g e n e r a l p u b l i c knowledge. f a m i l y possession.^" these f a m i l i e s .  t o be i n the realm  I t i s p r i v a t e and p e r s o n a l , o r a  I am a p a r t o f , and i d e n t i f y w i t h one o f  In r e l a t i n g t o my p a t e r n a l grandparents,  who  have been my i n f o r m a n t s , I have been very much aware o f d i f f e r e n t c a t e g o r i e s o f i n f o r m a t i o n which they w i l l share w i t h me s o l e l y because o f f a m i l y t i e s , and other i n f o r m a t i o n which i s open. t e x t of t h i s t h e s i s i s d i r e c t e d i n t e n t i o n a l l y away from  The  areas  which c o u l d d i s c l o s e knowledge o f the f i r s t s o r t which they do not wish t o be made p u b l i c . For s e v e r a l years I have been c o l l e c t i n g f o r my grandparents p i e c e s of i n f o r m a t i o n which can l a t e r be c o l l a t e d a d u a l biography  1  or a p a r t i a l h i s t o r y o f Musqueam.  into  Research f o r  Refer t o : S u t t l e s , Wayne P., P r i v a t e Knowledge, M o r a l i t y and S o c i a l C l a s s e s Among the Coast S a l i s h , American A n t h r o p o l o g i s t n.s. v o l . 60, 1958, pp. 497-507, Menasha.  2 t h i s t h e s i s was i n t e n d e d these  t o be o f v a l u e  o r i g i n a l objectives without  i n furthering either of  v i o l a t i n g the p r i v a t e / p u b l i c  knowledge d i s t i n c t i o n which i s a fundmanetal p a r t o f t h e c u l t u r e . B o t h Rose a n d E d S p a r r o w h a v e b e e n e x t r e m e l y and  cooperative  patient  through t h e r e c o r d i n g , t r a n s c r i p t i o n and e d i t i n g  of t h e m a t e r i a l s f o r t h i s  thesis.  Neither expects  any r e w a r d  o t h e r t h a n t o have t h e i n f o r m a t i o n documented and p o s s i b l y t o have a p a r t o f i t p u b l i s h e d i n t h e f u t u r e .  They w e r e , h o w e v e r ,  b o t h b e c o m i n g e a g e r t o move i n t o o t h e r a r e a s f o r r e c o r d i n g b y the time t h e l a s t  few t a p e s w e r e made f o r t h i s t h e s i s .  knowledge has been e x p o s e d and a r o u s e d r a t h e r t h a n by  this  Their  exhausted  exercise. Studies  o f Canadian Indians  i n the labor market, o r of  t h e i r economic development have approached t h e t o p i c from a number o f a n g l e s  over a p e r i o d o f time.  s t a t i s t i c i a n s h a v e gone t o g r e a t p o p u l a t i o n i n economic surveys,  lengths  R e s e a r c h e r s and t o locate the Native  t o analyze  and d e s i g n a t e  their  p o s i t i o n complete w i t h c o n t r i b u t o r y f a c t o r s , i m p l i c a t i o n s , and 2 proposed  alternatives.  2 Refer t o : F i e l d s , D. B. a n d W. T. S t a n b u r y , The E c o n o m i c I m p a c t o f t h e P u b l i c S e c t o r Upon t h e I n d i a n s o f B r i t i s h C o l u m b i a , s u b m i t t e d t o Department o f I n d i a n A f f a i r s and N o r t h e r n Development. V a n c o u v e r , The U n i v e r s i t y o f B r i t i s h C o l u m b i a P r e s s , 1 9 7 3 . H a w t h o r n , H. B., A S u r v e y o f C o n t e m p o r a r y I n d i a n s o f Canada, a r e p o r t on e c o n o m i c , p o l i t i c a l , e d u c a t i o n a l needs and policies. I n d i a n A f f a i r s , O t t a w a , 196 8. H a w t h o r n , H. B., C. S. B e l s h a w , S. M. J a m i e s o n , T h e Indians o f B r i t i s h Columbia: a study o f contemporary s o c i a l a d j u s t m e n t , U n i v e r s i t y o f T o r o n t o P r e s s , T o r o n t o , 195 8. (continued)  3 Implications person's  apparent  established  are  generally centered  lack of  ability  labor patterns.  or rate of  assimilation  Incomplete  absorption into  The  into  among t h e  attainment  the  s o c i e t y and  by  Natives  and  non  Native  adapt  to  on  degree  Indian  society.  r e s u l t a n t under-  available  being  the  seems t o be  a predominantly  leading factors  realized  and/or d e s i r e to emphasis  development of personal p o t e n t i a l t o be  around  resources  implicated i n the  appear  level  i n economic development of  of  their  region. There which  i s not,  the Native  complementary Native.  The  views  aspects  taken  Valuesplaced related  on  examples  concepts  the nature  t o determine of  areas  are  t o work, the  In this  to  incorporates to this,  I refer  frame of  in itself,  concept  w o r k , and  to meaning.  emerge t o g e t h e r other  relative  By  from the  meaning of work  position  knowledge, a current  or which  of work.  assume i n t h e N a t i v e  their  present  i n v e s t i g a t e s i n depth,  extent  may  t o my  any  to  various  instrumental i n  these  values  respect, values  and  Native  of work.  concepts  the  forms i t  economy. are  their  consider i n investigating  of  unoerstandin-  l a b o r f o r c e , and of  great  the  reference  or the  study  closely  nature There  are  Native  of work: c o n t r i b u t i o n s t o work, b e n e f i t s r e c e i v e d  from,  2  (continued) S t a n b u r y , W. T., D. B. F i e l d s , D. S t e v e n s o n , B. C. I n d i a n s i n an U r b a n E n v i r o n m e n t : i n c o m e , p o v e r t y , e d u c a t i o n and v o c a t i o n a l t r a i n i n g . Canada. D e p a r t m e n t o f Manpower and Immigration. Manpower R e v i e w , P a c i f i c R e g i o n v o l . 5 No. 3 ( J u l y - S e p t e m b e r , 1972") p p . I I - 3 3 . the  S t a n b u r y , W. T. a n d J . H. L a b o u r M a r k e t , V a n c o u v e r , 19 7 3 .  Siegel,  Urban  may  Indians  in  4 expectations  o f work  being  of the labor  a part  individuals  or fellow workers, restrictions force,  p e r i o d s o r seasons  d i d n o t work, i n f l u e n c e  of family  felt  by  when  members  or  family  life. It  i s n o t my  intention  already  exists.  attempt  t o e x p l o r e t h e uses  collecting to  The main purpose  established  b y my  history  to clarify  we w i l l  investigate  a n o t h e r means o f a p p r o a c h i n g  work for —  that  i s through I hope  the life  o n l y hope  history  their  possible  this  work p a t t e r n s the nature of  the topics i n this  as  seen  project to  approach  to the topic of  t o a i d i n the establishment of a cultural  contribution, barriers adjustment,  t o understand  N a t i v e p e o p l e , what  how t h e y  areas considered  the s u b j e c t o f work.  an u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e N a t i v e p o s i t i o n  development,  to  I would  be an  of the regional  c e n t e r around  the culture.  which  approach i n  possible  i n development  from w i t h i n  It  thesis w i l l  g r a n d p a r e n t s , and through  Throughout,  information  and d e s c r i b e work  Wejalso hope  Indian participation  economy.  of this  of a l i f e  data, t o determine  be i m p o r t a n t .  Native  to discredit  a r e moulded.  society  met, n a t u r e o f i n v o l v e m e n t i n  and so f o r t h .  f u r t h e r what their  i n Canadian  basis  life  In this  w a y , i t may  m e a n s t o my  order of p r i o r i t i e s  be  grandparents,  are i n l i f e ,  and  5  Chapter  2  OUTLINE OF METHODOLOGY Data f o r t h i s  s t u d y w e r e c o l l e c t e d a t Musqueam  a suburb o f Vancouver, B r i t i s h Columbia. u r b a n C o a s t S a l i s h community. " 1  mainly  from January  c o l l e c t e d i n 1972.  to July,  Reserve,  I t i s a medium s i z e d  T h e t a p e r e c o r d i n g s w e r e made  1975, w i t h a few r e l a t e d p o r t i o n s  The i n f o r m a n t s , my p a t e r n a l  grandparents,  a r e now r e s i d e n t a t Musqueam, E d S p a r r o w , S r . b e i n g a n a t i v e o f Musqueam, a n d Rose S p a r r o w (nee G e o r g e ) o r i g i n a l l y Kwaw-kwah-a-pilt  (Koh k a p l a t ) n e a r S a r d i s , B. C. w  from They a r e  s e v e n t y - s i x a n d s e v e n t y - t h r e e y e a r s o f age r e s p e c t i v e l y . The f r a m e w o r k f o r a p p r o a c h i n g c e n t e r e d on e l i c i t i n g histories. mation  Both  t h e work h i s t o r y p o r t i o n o f i n d i v i d u a l  grandparents  were encouraged t o r e c o r d  most i m p o r t a n t t o t h e m s e l v e s ,  community.  t h e g o a l a n d a i m s s e t was  The i n t e r v i e w s u n c o v e r e d  be c o n s i d e r e d a s c o m p l e t e  much d e t a i l b u t c o u l d n o t  or exhaustive.  l i v e s i s concerned.  infor-  their family or their  The o r d e r o f r e c o r d e d  d a t a i s n o t c h r o n o l o g i c a l a s f a r as o r d e r o f o c c u r r e n c e grandparents*  life  i n my  T o p i c , r e c o r d i n g o r d e r , and  1 The p o p u l a t i o n , O c t o b e r , 19 75 — a p p r o x i m a t e l y 430 r e g i s t e r e d Band members. I t was e s t i m a t e d t h a t 320 B a n d members w e r e r e s i d e n t on r e s e r v e , a s w e l l as 100 n o n B a n d members ( i n c l u d e s non s t a t u s and t h o s e r e g i s t e r e d w i t h o t h e r b a n d s ) .  6 depth  of study  record  were  largely  and by t h e i r  tolerance  recall capacity.  for questioning  considered  amount o f m a t e r i a l  a part as  thorough  record  area  their  were  factors i n determining  also  the  t h e method o f c o l l e c t i n g  the f i r s t  stage  of specific  o f my  from the time  allowed  I have  answering of  employment o r work  up t o t h e  f o r w o r k , p r o b l e m s and o b s t a c l e s style,  and d e f i n e  cost  i n triplicate.  and o r d e r e d  encountered,  taxonomic diagrams  o r work  verification  grandparents  t a s k was within of  b y my  done w i t h  the personal  order  before  chronologies.  accounts.  from the  being  while  minimally,  worked  The n e x t phase  and a n a l y s i s by m y s e l f .  the idea of c l a s s i f y i n g  and between t h e h i s t o r i e s  end  of l i v i n g , e t c .  They were t h e n e d i t e d  i n recording  history  the work, the  Recorded m a t e r i a l s were t r a n s c r i b e d v e r b a t i m  indexed,  questions,  The work  grandparents describe  and typed  of  perspective.  necessity  tapes,  Further  f o r enlargement  My  life  and  made t o  of the couple.  present.  or rewards,  been  used  an a t t e m p t was  references,  grandparents' of f i r s t  important  them.  of the study,  each grandparent  expression  total  i s aa  as a n a l y s i s and summation.  or discarding  eliciting  results  of  as p o s s i b l e i n d e s c r i b i n g t h e p r o c e d u r e s  with  detail,  limits  of study  an o u t l i n e o f t h e work h i s t o r i e s  sessions  spans  study,  for using In  and  this  The  willingness to  collected.  of the exercise  reasons  i n this  as s i g n i f i c a n t  For  d e t e r m i n e d by t h e i r  patterns  maintaining  and the  into  was This features  richness  7 Relationships classification, and  found i n the data  require  and i n t e r p r e t a t i o n i n regard  description, the individuals involved  social/cultural  disposition.  what t h e category  description,  t o t h e work  type  and t h e i r  In effect, this  i s describing  o f w o r k means t o t h e i n d i v i d u a l w i t h i n h i s  culture. Initially, the  I had s e t out t o determine  Coast S a l i s h i n t h e f i s h i n g industry  River,  and c o n t r i b u t i o n s  development o f t h i s Although fishing  non-library  thesis.  continuation My  area,  research  or  this  with  Native  ment i n t h e d i f f e r e n t a s p e c t s  The  the fishing  would  industry.  reveal  fishermen  t o forego a t hand.  and workers,  t o survey  their  or ethnic  cycle  p e o p l e who h a d l i v e d  A thesis proposal  I had  of  i n f o r m a n t s w e r e t o be r e s t r i c t e d t o Musqueam B a n d Indian  both  involve-  of the fishing industry.  a patterning  Native  was t o be an e s s e n t i a l l y  the opportunity  a n d m a l e o v e r t h e age o f s i x t y ,  hoped t h i s  t o the economic  I t would have been u n r e a s o n a b l e  of f i e l d  Fraser  on t h e h i s t o r y o f f i s h i n g and  River  i n t e n t was t o i n t e r v i e w  female  through  I d i d some r e a d i n g i n the Fraser  on t h e l o w e r  made b y t h e N a t i v e s  region  involvement of  activity.  members  i n t h e Musqueam-Vancouver  was d r a w n up a n d s u b m i t t e d  t o my  area.  Committee  Chairman. At up.  point  a list  of possible  i n f o r m a n t s was  The t o p i c h a d t o be changed b e c a u s e o f d i f f i c u l t y  enough  fishermen  limiting the  this  and workers  a t hand  f a c t o r s began t o emerge.  occupational  difficulty  f o rinterviewing.  Within  d i v e r s i t y was i n s u c h  limiting  a survey  t h e group  a wide  range  t o the fishing industry  drawn locating Other  a t hand, there  was  alone.  8 Another  important  individuals The a  f e a t u r e was t h e v a r i e t y o f j o b s  had attempted i n t h e i r next phase  determining  of perhaps with  p o s s i b l e work p a t t e r n s  advisor,  was e s t a b l i s h e d . the  nature  approval  a research  a t t e m p t s w e r e made t o c o n t a c t informants  available  time.  participate  related  A few o t h e r s  research  of possible  informants  research.  With  Musqueam  t o contact  people, Some  during the to  p r i m a r i l y because of lack of time or t o p a r t i c i p a t e was f o runversity  also  research.  t o U.B.C. h a s e x p o s e d t h e M u s q u e a m p e o p l e  t o many  o r i e n t e d p r o j e c t s , and r e s i s t a n c e o r d i s i n t e r e s t a r e  understood.  record  because o f t h e i r  own i n t e r e s t  o f f a m i l y h i s t o r y and legends,  Sparrow  showed a w i l l i n g n e s s t o work w i t h  feature  i n working with  through  a grandparent-grandchild  these  me.  i n having  relationship.  an  Rose and E d A very p o s i t i v e  two i s t h e r a p p o r t  of  the Chief's  d i s p l a y e d some u n w i l l i n g n e s s  the information  Primarily accurate  group  After discussion  a few o f t h e i n f o r m a n t s .  of the reluctance  t o using  Proximity  easily  Part  list  program w i t h  were d i f f i c u l t  i n the study  the intent  o f t h e Musqueam Band was i n f o r m e d  and i n t e n t o f t h e propose  desirable  collecting  or cycles within a  a t Musqueam.  a preliminary  The C h i e f  t o conduct  interest.  lifetime.  o f Musqueam r e s i d e n t s w i t h  eight t o ten persons  a faculty  occupations  o f d e v e l o p m e n t was t o c o n s i d e r  s e r i e s o f work h i s t o r i e s  of  or  which  exists  They have  a  9 knowledge with  o f what they  family.  realize  I a l s o have  things which  would  take  I  they  had  taped  periodically  a l s o worked  understanding  important  and w r i t t e n over  f e a t u r e was t h e  material  four or five  from  years.  as an i n f o r m a n t w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e .  together produced  which  would have been d i f f i c u l t  an a f f a b l e ,  almost  casual  both Ed  Sparrow  A l l factors atmosphere  to duplicate with a larger  group  informants. Also  at this  time  I was r e a d i n g T h e L i f e  Anthropological Science2 t o determine method and purpose  c o u l d be r e l a t e d  validity This any  o f r e c o r d i n g work h i s t o r i e s  first  t a p e was t r a n s c r i b e d  further the last  data  felt  parallels i n  to collecting  thesis  to test the  and a t t i t u d e s  and p a r t i a l l y  c o l l e c t i n g was a t t e m p t e d .  t o work.  analyzed  With  data.  before  the exception  t w o t a p e s w i t h R o s e , a l l r e c o r d i n g w a s d o n e i n my  grandparents* they  History i n  i fp o s s i b l e  A t a p i n g s e s s i o n w i t h Rose S p a r r o w was a r r a n g e d  of  o f some  not associated with the family  Another  taken  of  particularly  had o f what i s i n v o l v e d i n tape r e c o r d i n g .  had recorded both  grandparents  an i m p l i c i t  a person  much l o n g e r t o d e t e r m i n e . understanding  s h o u l d be s h a r e d ,  home w h e r e t h e y  could locate  themselves  wherever  comfortable.  L a n g n e s s , L e w i s L . , "The L i f e H i s t o r y i n A n t h r o p o l o g i c a l S c i e n c e " , S t u d i e s i n A n t h r o p o l o g i c a l Method, H o l t , R i n e h a r t and Winston, 1965. ~ ~  10 T h e r e w e r e some p r o b l e m s i n v o l v e d i n t h i s recording session. for  I had w r i t t e n out a l i s t  my g r a n d m o t h e r t o r e s p o n d  to.  initial  of possible questions  These were v e r y  general  q u e s t i o n s d i r e c t e d a t c l a s s i f y i n g work r a t h e r t h a n d e s c r i b i n g t h e t y p e s o f work done b y an i n d i v i d u a l . stage t o determine vealed.  T h i s was done a s a t e s t i n g  w h a t i n f o r m a t i o n m i g h t be o b t a i n e d a n d r e -  The a i m o f t h i s s e s s i o n was t o s e t o u t an o u t l i n e f o r  a s e r i e s o f q u e s t i o n s w h i c h c o u l d be u s e d as a s u r v e y b a s i s f o r a group w i t h v a r i e d work e x p e r i e n c e . of t e n t a t i v e q u e s t i o n s used t o guide i n t e r v i e w ; t h e s e were r e p h r a s e d  The f o l l o w i n g i s a the January  list  1 5 , 19 75  and e x p a n d e d b e f o r e  and d u r i n g  the i n t e r v i e w : 1.  I n g e n e r a l terms: what t y p e s o f a c t i v i t y can y o u i d e n t i f y i n Native c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s ? l e i s u r e - s i n g l e , group )essential or pleasure )optional w o r k - s i n g l e , f a m i l y , group)  2.  A r e there d i f f e r e n t k i n d s o r c a t e g o r i e s o f work? male, female e s s e n t i a l , non e s s e n t i a l : k n i t t i n g / w o o d cutting housework/work f o r money a s examples. seasonal hereditary life sustaining activities material, non-material orientation  3.  How o r why do y o u c l a s s i f y  certain activities  as w o r k ?  4.  A r e t h e s e c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s t h e same now a s y o u c a n remember them f r o m e a r l i e r t i m e s ?  5.  C o u l d y o u g i v e a b r i e f summary o f w o r k y o u h a v e done i n your l i f e t i m e work? work s e a s o n and y e a r location reasons f o r choice  11 General, than  open ended q u e s t i o n s  could specific,  questions  was  survey-like questions.  reviewed  and r e o r g a n i z e d  further questioning w i t h both Rose  further,  done  to test  sessions with the u t i l i t y  He w a s  asked  work he h a d done directed  concerned  spontaneous. and this  first  Very  tape  informant  was  seemed  or account  Questioning approach  q u i t e a t ease  was  was  very  than  un-  were  good and p r e c i s e as t o  to clarify He  t o work  a n d was  H i s responses  of the now  than  d i r e c t e d q u e s t i o n i n g was  same a p p r o a c h was  f r o m Musqueam.  a brief  synopsis  willing  t o respond  H o w e v e r , he was recorded.  recall  Again  o f t h e work  ordered  attempted  amounts  of  time  required at earnings,  h i s work e x p e r i e n c e  done.  This  into  informants,  terms.  directed at was  the information  there  seemed  and f a m i l y e x p e r i e n c e .  very  tape  w r i t t e n down. t o be  T h i s was  i f the questioning required the informant  even i n g e n e r a l  male  d i r e c t e d t o him.  one i n t e r v i e w a l l d a t a was  three  of personal  another  informant  and answer a l l q u e s t i o n s  this  these  with  t h e q u e s t i o n i n g was  not receptive t o having  During  With  apparent  This  s e q u e n c e o n h i s own. This  of  were begun.  recall  recorded.  little  session other  trend i n  Before interviewing  history  his life.  e m p l o y e r , o r work p a r t n e r s . a recall  a brief  Grandfather  Information  location.  of the  of the revised questions.  the personal  about being  The n a t u r e  Rose and E d .  to give  more t o w a r d  response  to follow this  grandfather  throughout  classification.  evoked b e t t e r  an  ease  n o t as  to categorize  12 After brief interviews, complete  analysis  c o n s i d e r a t i o n was  life  history  o f my  the present  was  directed  a t an i m p o r t a n t  the  narrower  work h i s t o r y  which  time.  seemed  I t appeared  likely  a group o f people d e c i s i o n was  cooperate,  area  a  already  collected  f o r anthropologicalresearch  each  Collection  o f my  grandparent  thesis  grandparents.  f a r outweigh with  work h i s t o r i e s  a  from  available.  The  collected  from  material  to data  Rapport,  willingness  r e c o r d i n g were  data  approach  t h a n was  —  grandparents.  would  a survey  of complete  r e q u i r e d f a r more t i m e  and an i n i t i a l  first  rejected  t h a t t h e volume and r i c h n e s s o f  made t o l i m i t  t w o i n f o r m a n t s , my  these  i d e a was  that the data  impersonal data obtained through  group o f i n f o r m a n t s .  This  sector of the lives  c o u l d be o b t a i n e d from  sketchy  from  given to the idea of collecting  grandparents.  for  It  of the transcripts  to  instrumental i n this  decision. In  discussion with a faculty  the work h i s t o r i e s approach work  to, obtaining life  cycles,  determine  a critical  activity  possible, flexible  data.  f o r , or a  The  areas  e t c . w o u l d be  sector of l i f e  decided  o f b o t h my  grandparents  and m y s e l f .  grandparents  by t h e work  Whenever  and d u r a t i o n o f i n t e r v i e w s were  to record a specified  to  i n general. t o and r e s t r i c t e d  my  different  investigated  xvere r e l a t e d  to avoid placing  that  of work,  times  the time  obligation  as s u p p o r t  history  economic d i s p o s i t i o n ,  Recording and  c o u l d be v i e w e d  a d v i s o r i t was  left  under pressure  amount o f m a t e r i a l .  very or  There  were  13 d a y s when no r e c o r d i n g was  attempted.  was o t h e r w o r k o r b u s i n e s s  t o b e d o n e o r d a y s when i t seemed  appropriate  to visit  Delays other  factors.  review  taped  recording session.  t h e r e were  interviews while  decided  t o begin  respond  other events.  him  events  to  opportunity to following with  some c o m p l i c a t i o n s e x p e r i e n c e d determining  our procedure,  a  t o exhaust  than  i n the  i t was  grandfather  i n an o r d e r w h i c h  At times,  disruptive  who  my  seemed  grandmother.  stimulated recall  q u e s t i o n i n g seemed u n n e c e s s a r y  t o h i s thought  his recall  patterns.  at first.  and was  I attempted  When some t y p e  of  t o allow  of barrier  were d i r e c t e d t o gaps i n t h e c o n t i n u i t y  of  data. As  necessary be  more  typed  the direction  f u r t h e r t a p i n g w i t h my  appeared, questions his  allowed  t o q u e s t i o n i n g more s p o n t a n e o u s l y  He a l s o r e l a t e d  fact  also attributed  D a t a was a l s o d i s c u s s e d p e r i o d i c a l l y  initial  in  there  advisor. Since  to  This  m a t e r i a l and t o determine  might take.  faculty  were  Tapes were g e n e r a l l y t r a n s c r i b e d and  the next  when  work.  between r e c o r d i n g dates  before  tapes  r a t h e r than  These were times  more t a p e s t o begin  important  data.  and t r a n s c r i p t s were c o l l e c t e d ,  setting  up an i n d e x  Separate  detailed  o f w h a t was chronologies  i t became  considered of both  to  work  3  histories  were  chronologies  also written out.  With  the year  by  a t h a n d , i n f o r m a t i o n g a p s became e v e n more  The  c h r o n o l o g i e s became an i n v a l u a b l e a s s e t t o b o t h  and  researcher  3  Refer  year  i n r e c o r d i n g and o r d e r i n g  t o A p p e n d i c e s A l , A2  apparent.  informant  data.  f o r C o n d e n s e d Work  Chronologies.  14 The  data  collected  but  i t seemed n e c e s s a r y  was  available,  recording broken It  interested  f l o w and  and  and  chronology  as  i n v o l v e d w i t h a second chronologies  g r a n d m o t h e r was  involved i n completing Extended  t o work  interruption  toward  f a r as p o s s i b l e  chronology.  actually  common i n f o r m a t i o n .  The  T h e r e may  from  consecutive r e c a l l  t a p i n g was  y e a r by  year,  i n f o r m a t i o n was handling year  by  the year  done.  I  she  also  activity his  too  i t was  of  that  have produced  some  his  an  certain  advantages  Grandfather went over and  these  felt  verifying  to  dis-  to  collaborate.  and  surveyed,  chronology  i n f o r m a t i o n as  he  o p p o r t u n i t y t o q u e s t i o n where  vague o r c o n t r a d i c t o r y .  chronology  He  felt  sheet himself, r e l a t i n g  more  comfortable  i n f o r m a t i o n on  a  basis.  ask  t o her  work, or her  what the  before becoming  out  gave  the other hand, responded  w e r e shown s p e c i f i c  could then  have  one  been w r i t t e n  correcting  G r a n d m o t h e r , on if  may  c h r o n o l o g i e s had  adding, This  he  of  omission of personal data i n order  further  went along.  completion  have been c e r t a i n  tractions  When b o t h  might  p r o v i d e d a means o f v a l i d a t i n g  information concurrently, but  and  limited  the  separateness  eliciting  difficulties  s t i l l  led to omission of pertinent information.  seemed more r a t i o n a l  history  my  t o c o n t i n u e r e c o r d i n g w i t h Ed w h i l e  of h i s information.  the  also  from  a r e a s w h e r e i n f o r m a t i o n was  questions which family, birth own  chronology  would r e l a t e  order of her  p r e v i o u s work. was  at  more  first,  and  She how  her work  children,  had  readily missing. and  husband  seemed u n c e r t a i n  to relate  to i t .  and  15 After  hearing  and  w a t c h i n g Ed  became more a t e a s e w i t h After i n t e r v i e w was or  an  e v a l u a t i o n of  Basically Since and to the my  the  data  Notes period it  of  they  I f they would  on  grandparents  at  of  d i d not  study,  a a  synopsis begun.  Rose and their  respond  Ed.  interests  a l s o h a v e an  invite  summation  a n a l y s i s was  both  around  should  least  full  give  opportunity  analytically,  opinions.  analysis should  m e t h o d o l o g y w e r e made p e r i o d i c a l l y  u s e f u l i n the with  she  not  It is be  left  researcher.  thesis research.  w o u l d be  collection  the  chronologies,  been centered  I considered  i n some way.  with  the  were asked  that i n ethnographic  entirely  by  materials before  had  l i n e of q u e s t i o n i n g view  guided  same q u e s t i o n s  references,  h i s chronology  own.  t o h a v e my  the  collection  analyze  her  interviews arranged  work w i t h  these  and  This  was  a n a l y s i s of other  done w i t h data  informants.  and  the  through  the  expectation  i n future  data  16  Chapter 3 INITIAL INTERVIEWS ON WORK HISTORY PROJECT 3.1  Tape 22  Rose Sparrow January 15,  Tape 22,  1975  as noted above, was  an i n t r o d u c t o r y attempt  to o r i e n t the d i r e c t i o n of r e s e a r c h , t o f a m i l i a r i z e both myself and my  grandparents with the t o p i c .  questions  (see page l o ) was  T h i s o r i g i n a l o u t l i n e of  r e l a t e d to general topics  and  c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s r a t h e r than s p e c i f i c p e r s o n a l i n f o r m a t i o n . questions were intended to be  only t o p r o v i d e  re-worded and re-ordered  The  a g u i d e l i n e f o r ideas  as necessary.  No r i g i d  frame-  work had y e t been e s t a b l i s h e d . Grandmother began o r d e r i n g responses to her own and  concepts  frame of r e f e r e n c e very q u i c k l y , at times l e a v i n g the  q u e s t i o n apparently  unanswered.  to the o r i g i n a l q u e s t i o n q u e s t i o n i n g w i t h her  list,  When p o s s i b l e I r e l a t e d back attempting  t o i n t e g r a t e the  response.  Grandmother began to e x p l a i n her concept of work i n g e n e r a l , c u l t u r e o r i e n t e d terms.  She  moved q u i c k l y from the  present t o e a r l y t r a i n i n g , then t o p e r s o n a l e x p e r i e n c e s .  This  account appears q u i t e d i s j o i n t e d and u n r e l a t e d t o o r i g i n a l p l a n s , but the r i c h n e s s of d e s c r i p t i v e d e t a i l cannot be Tapes 22 and  ignored.  23 were o r i g i n a l l y t r a n s c r i b e d verbatim  f a m i l i a r i z e me with the responsiveness assure no p e r t i n e n t i n f o r m a t i o n was  of my  omitted.  to  grandparents, and  to  17  Tape 22 Recorded:  January 15,  1975  Rose Sparrow Musqueam QUESTIONS RELATED TO WORK HISTORY Question: Can you t e l l me how you spend your time, how order your work and spare time?  you  I spend my time during the day f i r s t of a l l I have to clean house the same as anybody e l s e . Ah w e l l , you know a l l the work I have to do l i k e the bathtub i s housework included i n i t or just the work I do. Question:  Any kind of work you  do?  Well, f i r s t of a l l we had to learn how to clean house, wash clothes everything l i k e that. Learn to be clean. Ed Sparrow:  F i r s t of a l l you were a housewife.  Rose: When we were single we were taught a l l that. Taught how to work, go out and work for yourself. Not making money. You learn how to go out and get things to work with. Like you go out and dig roots, cedar tree root for your roots. Bring i t home then s i t down and s p l i t them the length we want to use i t for you know. And then we're taught to make them (baskets)}. That's the f i r s t lessons we got as we were growing up. Like from seven years up we're taught that, taught how to make baskets. And another thing we have to be clean. F i r s t thing i n the morning they wake us up early, t e l l us to go out and bath. Not i n the hot water, but i n the cold water outside somewhere, i n a creek or a slough. Then you come out clean and then you do a l l your work. That's the f i r s t thing we're taught, to be clean. Keep yourself clean, your clothes clean, everything.  1 Entries i n parentheses were added by the after t r a n s c r i p t i o n to c l a r i f y the text.  interviewer  18  We enjoy d o i n g a l l t h a t . You know we used t o climb up t h e mountain, go d i g i t (roots f o r b a s k e t s ) . We were happy t o do a l l those t h i n g s because we knew we'd get somet h i n g o u t o f i t . Because we knew when we'd g e t through making these l i t t l e baskets we were t o l d t o go and s e l l them. We go s e l l them. I f we wanted cash I guess we'd ask f o r i t , but money d i d n ' t mean anything t o us when we were c h i l d r e n . Nothing, b u t we used t o t r a d e f o r whatever we thought we needed — c l o t h i n g and a l l t h a t f o r our work you know. When we were l i t t l e t h a t ' s how we were c i o t h e d because we d i d n ' t work f o r money. We t r a d e i n our work f o r c l o t h e s and everything l i k e that. I f you d i d n ' t have t h i s and t h a t you make baskets and you go peddle i t . Whatever you ask f o r , you g e t i t , you t r a d e i n . That's how we earned what we needed i n t h e house and c l o t h i n g and a l l t h a t . There was no jobs f o r us. We d i d have t o go t o work i n t h e f i e l d s weeding. We o n l y used t o g e t v e r y l i t t l e f o r working o u t l i k e t h a t . I used t o go o u t w i t h my g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r . We used t o g e t up e a r l y , g e t i n t h e canoe and then we'd go o u t and s e t n e t . Go back t h e next morning, g e t the f i s h , b r i n g i t home, c l e a n i t , smoke i t and a l l t h a t . We d i d n ' t have no o t h e r way o f s a v i n g i t but smoke i t , you know, o r s a l t i t . 2  We were taught t o go o u t and work o u t s i d e . Help w i t h the groundwork, t o p l a n t our seeds and t h a t what you need enough o f . P l a n t those and so on. We l e a r n e d how t o do t h a t . When the f a l l comes you d i g i t up and p u t i t away. You were taught t o h e l p w i t h e v e r y t h i n g l i k e t h a t , l i k e g e t t i n g wood. We'd go o u t and h e l p c u t the wood down, l i t t l e t r e e s you know, c u t them down. You need h o r s e s . When the f i r s t s n o w f a l l we used t o go o u t and g e t the wood. Get g r e a t b i g s l e i g h s and h i t c h t h e horses on and l o a d i t down, take i t home. Get i t a l l c u t up ready f o r t h e w i n t e r . I s t h a t a l l a l r i g h t , you can t e l l a l l those t h i n g s ? I used t o h e l p my g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r . He was v e r y o l d and we went along t o do a l l these t h i n g s . I n t h e w i n t e r we stopped making baskets because i t ' s so c o l d . You'd have t o have water t o d i p your r o o t s i n as you go a l o n g making them. That's where I f i r s t l e a r n e d how t o do t h i s wool I'm d o i n g now ( f o r I n d i a n sweaters). My g r e a t grandmother used t o s p i n and I watched h e r . She'd t e a c h me how t o s p i n t h i s wool you know and she taught me how t o k n i t socks o r something l i k e t h a t . We l e a r n e d a l l those t h i n g s . We were taught e v e r y t h i n g l i k e t h a t . We used to k n i t these socks and s e l l them i n t h e w i n t e r and they'd be cheap but we got our l i v i n g o u t o f i t . •^Refer t o Appendix C — names and f a m i l y members.  GENEALOGY f o r r e f e r e n c e s t o  Q u e s t i o n t Everyone c o n t r i b u t e d t o s u p p o r t i n g t h e f a m i l y ? Yes. We done i t because we knew we had t o do i t . We had t o do a l l these t h i n g s t o g e t a l o n g you know....through the y e a r s t o come. We had t o l e a r n i t because when we grow up we had t o do a l l these t h i n g s a f t e r w a r d s . That's why we were taught t o do a l l these t h i n g s . J u s t l i k e you going t o s c h o o l . So we were taught a l l these t h i n g s t o take c a r e o f o u r s e l v e s and our f a m i l y i n y e a r s t o come. That's why we were doing a l l these t h i n g s . I was taught t o go f i s h i n g . I used t o go o u t alone i n a canoe and s e t my n e t , and go see i t , a f t e r w a r d s when I was o l d and b i g enough then t o paddle my canoe. I went up and g e t a l l these t h i n g s , f i s h , then take i t home. A l l those t h i n g s and you have t o know what t o do. Another t h i n g I f o r g o t t o t e l l you. I t h i n k i t ' s i n the f a l l . I was o n l y a k i d , b u t , they had t r a p s f o r muskrats then i n them days. We used t o go set up t r a p s t o g e t these muskrats. We'd g e t them and I ' l l s t a r t t o s k i n them, take the f u r o f f and p u t i t on t h e boards, n a i l i t on, d r y i t . I can s k i n muskrats, weasels, they were the s m a l l e s t l i t t l e animals, t h e weasels, white ones. I know how t o s k i n them. And I know how t o s k i n mink. Mink a r e l o n g and t h i n you know. I knew how t o s k i n a l l t h a t , p u t i t on a board and d r y i t . That was another way o f making money. We c o u l d s e l l i t . The f u r buyers used t o come along and buy i t after. So we knew we had t o do t h i s , and we had t o l e a r n i t . When I g o t married he (Ed Sparrow) was d o i n g t h e same t h i n g , he was a t r a p p e r . I used t o s k i n whatever he brought home. I'd s k i n them. He's gone f o r the day a g a i n and I'm home s k i n n i n g them. Put them on t h e boards and d r y them. J u s t t o keep the c h i l d r e n g o i g . -  Q u e s t i o n;  D i d you have times f o r r e l a x i n g ?  Oh y e s . We'd s i t and r e l a x i n the evening o r i n the a f t e r n o o n . I'd go o u t and s i t down w i t h o t h e r l a d i e s and we'd j u s t s i t t h e r e o r go o u t p i c k i n g b e r r i e s . That's something. We'd go o u t p i c k i n g w i l d b e r r i e s , enjoy o u r s e l v e s i n t h e woods, p i c k i n g them. That was o u r . . . . w e l l , pastime. To go o u t and g e t b e r r i e s and b r i n g i t home. I f we canned, then we canned them. That's a l l I can remember. We'd g e t t o g e t h e r and we'd go o u t t o a swimming p o o l or somewhere, s t a y t h e r e and have l o t s o f f u n . We done e v e r y t h i n g l i k e t h a t . A f t e r I was m a r r i e d we used t o take the k i d s o u t you know. Take them out swimming o r go o u t i n the woods w i t h them when t h e b e r r i e s a r e r i p e . Teach them how t o p i c k . I used t o have a l l my c h i l d r e n w i t h me. I used to go up here (near Musqueam) i n the woods when i t was a l l my c h i l d r e n . The l i t t l e boys, they used t o l o v e p i c k i n g b e r r i e s , w i l d b e r r i e s you know. P i c k l o t s and s t a y up t h e r e . That was our pastime work. That's a l l I can remember now.  20 Q u e s t i o n : (not on t a p e ) : I s l o o k i n g a f t e r and r a i s i n g a f a m i l y work? I'd say i t ' s work l o o k i n g a f t e r your c h i l d r e n , cause t h a t ' s a hard j o b . You know, f i r s t t h i n g i n the morning when I had l i t t l e k i d s . Get them up, the l i t t l e ones I'd bathe them; bath them, d r e s s them, change t h e i r c l o t h e s . Every day I used t o have them d r e s s e d i n the morning, c l e a n c l o t h e s you know. And I used t o scrub c l o t h e s by hand on a s c r u b b i n g board. We used t o do t h a t . And we had no t a p water, n o t h i n g . We used t o pack our water from over here. The c o r n e r over here where G e r i (daughter) i s , r i g h t down t o where o u r house i s way down t h e r e . In p a i l s , t o do our l a u n d r y . And I used to wash a l l day sometimes. Of course when you're washing d i a p e r s you have t o be washing every day, every morning. You c a n ' t miss one morning. Then you have a c e r t a i n day f o r washing your c l o t h e s , another day f o r t h a t . And another day f o r i f you have t o wash your sheets and b l a n k e t s and a l l t h a t , because we had a hard time g e t t i n g water. The c i t y was f a r up, up t h e r e and we had no money t o put i n water p i p e s o r a n y t h i n g t o g e t water. Our d r i n k i n g water was up the s p r i n g up here, the s p r i n g water up h e r e . In t h e e a r l y evening the boys would go pack water. Send t h e boys and they'd go up t h e r e , g e t p a i l s o f water. We'd always send them up t h e r e . That's f o r cooking and d r i n k i n g . But f o r washing c l o t h e s we used t o come t o t h i s w e l l over here. We d i d n ' t want t o d r i n k t h a t i n the w e l l t h a t was up t h e r e . We jiust use t h a t f o r washing. And I scrub my f l o o r s . Wooden f l o o r , we d i d n ' t have the c a r p e t s o r a n y t h i n g . Every weekend I'm s c r u b b i n g the house. Indians weren't d i r t y J We t r i e d t o beat t o see who'd have the c l e a n e s t f l o o r a l l down t h e r e . Scrub our f l o o r s . Now we've got l i n o l e u m we don't even t h i n k o f doing t h a t . I'd g e t up maybe 6:00 o r e a r l i e r . I'm on my f e e t when my c h i l d r e n a r e s m a l l t i l l the time t h e y ' r e a l l i n bed. I f e e d them. About 8:00 I say time t o go t o bed boys. First of a l l , you guys g o t t o say your p r a y e r s . I t o l d them k n e e l down on t h e c h e s t e r f i e l d . They a l l k n e e l down say t h e i r p r a y e r s . I n a l i t t l e w h i l e W i l l a r d would be sneaking back like this. I t o l d him — no, no, you say your p r a y e r s now. A f t e r t h a t they a l l go t o bed. I t was a r e s t f o r me then. I s i t down. We d i d n ' t have no r a d i o , n o t h i n g . W e l l , whatever I wanted t o do t h a t evening I would. Bake something, o r something f o r the next day. That was o u r evening. Then I'd go t o bed because I know I have t o be up e a r l y t o s t a r t a l l over a g a i n the same r o u t i n e . Bathe them, change them, wash.  21 I don't know r e a l l y what k i n d o f work I d i d a f t e r I had my c h i l d r e n . I was r e a l l y j u s t a mother. I done a l l the housework and t h e washing. That's a l l I c o u l d handle you know. Question; work?  You don't t h i n k o f i t as b e i n g d i f f e r e n t k i n d s o f  No. J u s t t o work t o take care o f your f a m i l y . How to r a i s e them, h e a l t h y . A f t e r they grew up I went t o work. We used t o t r y and weed t o make a l i t t l e money — you know i n the gardens. I don't know i f I have t o t e l l t h a t . We done e v e r y t h i n g . We used t o go o u t the P o i n t (Point Grey) t h e r e i n the s p r i n g , a l l t h e women. P i c k seaweed, number one seaweed down the P o i n t . We'd p i c k t h e seaweed, d r y them, and s e l l them f o r money. That's work. And another t h i n g we used t o go a f t e r was the Cascara bark. That's making money, t h a t ' s work. We used t o go p e e l the t r e e s , take i t home, pack i t home, t h e bark. Dry i t and a f t e r i t ' s d r y , we s e l l them. That was making money f o r a l i v i n g too. But Dad (Ed Sparrow), he used t o work hard. He c u t cordwood because i n them days they c o u l d n ' t g e t no j o b nowhere i f they wanted t o . They wouldn't h i r e anybody. That's when my k i n d s were growing up I was d o i n g t h a t . But afterwards when fehey grew up, then I went t o work f o r t h e cannery. I worked u n t i l I was 60. I worked j u s t t o keep going you know. Buy c l o t h e s f o r t h e k i d s . We weren't making enough t o save. We used t o be l u c k y t o g e t by. Question:  Your main concern was j u s t t o keep t h e f a m i l y going?  Keep t h e f a m i l y g o i n g , y e s . But a f t e r , when I worked i n t h e cannery I saved my money I was making cause a l l my k i d s were gone now. They a l l grew up. Eddy and G e r i were t h e o n l y ones I had. Question:  Are you working r i g h t now?  I'm working r i g h t now. Every hour o f t h e day. F i r s t t h i n g i n t h e morning I'm s p i n n i n g wool downstairs then I'm knitting. Q u e s t i o n : I s t h i s work, what you're t e l l i n g me now; t h e recording? I t must be, because both.  I'm working  ( k n i t t i n g ) and t a l k i n g  22  I was taught t o d i g r o o t s and make baskets from seven y e a r s o l d up. We had t o l e a r n a l l those t h i n g s as we were growing up t o f o u r t e e n o r f i f t e e n y e a r s . Then we knew everyt h i n g what t o do then. To d i g your r o o t , make your basket, a n d work on t h e farm. We l e a r n e d a l l t h a t from c h i l d h o o d . We were taught. Question: Where were you r a i s e d ; what d i d you do a f t e r f o u r t e e n o r f i f t e e n y e a r s o f age? Up C h i l l i w a c k . Then I got m a r r i e d — s i x t e e n when I got m a r r i e d . I wasn't t h e f i r s t one t o g e t m a r r i e d a t t h a t age. Them days, t h a t was t h e I n d i a n s t y l e . Long ago t h e I n d i a n s marry o f f t h e i r c h i l d r e n young — t h e g i r l s . You weren't allowed t o go o u t the way they do now. They s t a y home, taught t o work. F i r s t t h i n g you know someone propose to them f o r t h e i r daughter i f she was f o u r t e e n o r f i f t e e n o r s i x t e e n . They l e t them go. I don't know what you c a l l i t , i f they wanted t o have a good name o r something, but t h a t was t h e i r ways. Marry o f f t h e i r daughter young. I n them days i t was a g a i n s t t h e i r laws I guess o r whatever they c a l l i t , they t e l l t h e i r daughter when you g e t m a r r i e d don't you l e a v e your husband. They say i t was a d i s g r a c e i f a g i r l goes and l i v e s w i t h a guy f o r so l o n g and l e a v e . I t was a d i s g r a c e t o the f a m i l y and t o t h e t r i b e . That was t h e i r ways. There was no such t h i n g as d i v o r c e s i n the I n d i a n s , n o t h i n g . I went t o s c h o o l up C h i l l i w a c k for a l i t t l e w h i l e . I d i d n ' t go steady t o h i g h e r grades because my g r e a t grandparents was t h e ones t h a t r a i s e d me and they d i d n ' t know any b e t t e r . W e l l , when you're a c h i l d you don't know. They were o l d . I t h i n k I j u s t went t o s c h o o l f o r a couple o f y e a r s . J u s t l e a r n e d how t o w r i t e my name and w r i t e a l i t t l e b i t . My mother d i e d when I was t h r e e y e a r s o l d and I was brought up by /these o l d people, my( ) g r e a t grandparents. So I was brought up the hard way; I t wasn't easy. My g r e a t grandmother used t o go t o work everyday. She used t o go work f o r t h e white people and I stayed home. I had t o t r y and do what she d i d , d u r i n g t h e day. T r y t o do housework and t r y t o h e l p t h e o l d man i n as many ways as I c o u l d . . . c o o k i n g o r something...After I was about seven o r e i g h t y e a r s o l d you know. But they were my p a r e n t s , my g r e a t grandparents. When my g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r would go o u t f i s h i n g he'd take me a l o n g . I'd be s i t t i n g i n the bow o f the canoe. I remember, I don't know how o l d I was. I (don't) quite remember. I had a l i t t l e bed t h e r e . . . a b l a n k e t f o r me. I'd go t o s l e e p t h e r e . When he goes o u t f i s h i n g , I'd be w i t h my g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r . Question; What was your g r e a t grandmother d o i n g when she was working out? Washing c l o t h e s . Every day she'd go work wash c l o t h e s f o r these p e o p l e . One day she'd be another house, next day she'd be another. You know, keep on l i k e t h a t . My g r e a t  23 g r a n d f a t h e r c o u l d n ' t work. He was t o o o l d . H i s j o b was s t a y i n g home and l o o k i n g a f t e r t h e f i s h . He'd go f i s h i n g and b r i n g i t home. Then he'd work on the garden — you know, weeding o r hoeing t h e p o t a t o e s . Or he'd be c u t t i n g wood. Get a l l t h e wood c u t and he'd pack i t home. He'd chop i t up and I M pack i t i n the k i t c h e n , l i n e i t a l l up so my g r e a t grandmother would have a l l t h a t ready when she gets home. Go down t h e w e l l , and pack water. Two p a i l s , b r i n g i t i n t h e r e a l l s e t . We done a l l t h a t . I'd go home and cook you know. I was brought up i n hard way because o l d people l i k e t h a t . They done t h e b e s t way they c o u l d t o b r i n g me up. I d i d n ' t have much s c h o o l i n g because nobody t o l d them you b e t t e r . Nobody was t h e r e t o t e l l them you b e t t e r send h e r t o s c h o o l I guess, o r something l i k e t h a t . I was j u s t brought up a t home t h e b e s t way they brought me up. I was f e d good anyways. Q u e s t i o n : When you were r a i s i n g your own f a m i l y how d i d you work t o make money? L i k e what I was t e l l i n g you. We go p i c k seaweeds, p i c k the Cascara bark. That's a t home here (Musqueam). And then we l e a r n e d how t o s p i n wool afterwards here. I used t o make socks and s e l l i t t o the s t o r e s i n town a f t e r we l e a r n e d how t o do t h e wool. But i t took a l o n g time b e f o r e we found out what t o do about making t h e wool i n t o y a r n . I t took a l o n g time t o g e t t h a t i n my head anyways. That was another way o f making money. He (Ed Sparrow) used t o f i s h . Go f i s h i n g , and c u t t i n g cordwood t o s e l l . That's how we r a i s e d our f a m i l y . There was no steady j o b anywhere. We had t o do whatever you can do j u s t around home here. We never got no r e l i e f l i k e what t h e y ' r e g e t t i n g now. No w e l f a r e . I f you go t o the I n d i a n Department. He got h u r t and broke h i s l e g once. We went t h e r e (Indian Department) — they wouldn't g i v e him (any money). No way, t h e government would say. Oh, $3.00 a month i s what they gave the o l d people t h a t c a n ' t work no more — $3.50 — Know what they used g e t (for $3.50)? L i t t l e sack o f f l o u r , l i t t l e bag o f r i c e , l i t t l e bag o f white beans, t e a . I don't know i f they g o t sugar — oh, a l i t t l e bag. $3.50, mind you, f o r a whole month! You had t o l i v e on t h a t ! And they wouldn't g i v e i t t o me because he was a b l e t o work. But he broke h i s l e g t h a t time. I had the whole f a m i l y , yeah — I had about seven o r e i g h t c h i l d r e n . How we got by I don't know. When t h e k i d s grew up, about seven o r e i g h t y e a r s o l d , they went t o thefeboarding s c h o o l . I j u s t had t h e l i t t l e ones w i t h me. But they used t o come home every weekend t o us o r e v e r y o t h e r week (weekend). Stay w i t h us o v e r n i g h t (probaby  24 F r i d a y n i g h t t o S a t u r d a y n i g h t ) and go b a c k . They used t o t r y and do l i t t l e t h i n g s t o h e l p u s . P i l e wood f o r t h e i r Dad when he was c u t t i n g wood. And when t h e h o l i d a y came t h e y u s e d t o go o u t w i t h t h e i r Dad and t r y and h e l p f i s h i n g . T h a t was Ronny and them d i d t h a t — go w i t h t h e i r Dad f i s h i n g — and I'm home w i t h t h e r e s t . T h a t ' s how t h e y l e a r n how t o be f i s h e r m e n , t h e y went o u t w i t h t h e i r Dad, f i s h i n g — W i l l a r d and Ronny. So Ronny knows what a t o u g h l i f e he went t h r o u g h . ( I t was r o u g h ? ) "3 i n them d a y s . T h e r e was no s u c h t h i n g a s TV o r r a d i o . The k i d s when t h e y g e t up, t h e y d i d n ' t j u s t l o a f a r o u n d , t h e y worked. They h e l p e d . I f I'm c l e a n i n g h o u s e t h e y h e l p e d . If I'm g o i n g t o wash t h e f l o o r s t h e y h e l p e d . They never j u s t l o a f e d around. T h e y a s k w h a t ' s t o be done a n d t h e y do i t . The p r o b l e m we u s e d t o h a v e : p a c k wood i n , b o y s . The l a m p s , e a r l y i n t h e m o r n i n g t h e y had t o be c l e a n e d , we u s e d c o a l lamps and t h e y had t o wash t h e g l o b e s , g e t i t a l l r e a d y f o r t h e n e x t n i g h t . T h a t was t h e i r j o b . T h e i r j o b was t o f i x t h e i r b e d s , c l e a n t h e i r room . I n d i a n k i d s were t a u g h t l i k e that. They weren't l a z y . N o t l i k e now. I d o n » t s e e anybody do t h a t anymore. No more lamps I g u e s s I B u t t h e y knew now t o keep a house c l e a n . One t h i n g when Dad was f i s h i n g we u s e d t o go o u t camping. L e a v e home h e r e . We'd go t o Westham I s l a n d o r somewhere — B r u n s w i c k t h e y c a l l i t , way down b e l o w Canoe Pass. We u s e d t o go t h a t way t o f i s h . We s t a y e d i n t h i s cannery shack. W e l l , t h a t ' s where I r e a l l y w o r k e d . He (Ed S p a r r o w ) b r i n g s t h e f i s h i n on t h e weekends. Then I'd c u t the f i s h . Sometimes I ' d do a h u n d r e d f i s h i n one day — f i l l e t them. And we'd smoke some, and s a l t some, and I ' d c a n some. I f I had any c a n n i n g I ' d do i t one d a y . Then t h e n e x t t i m e I smoke i t — t h a t ' s a n o t h e r d a y ' s work a n o t h e r week. Smoke t h e f i s h , g e t i t a l l hung up and smoke i t . T h e n we do t h a t f o r a b o u t a month o r more. Smoking f i s h , s a l t i t , canning f i s h , everything l i k e that. That's f o r our w i n t e r s u p p l y , when we g e t t h a t a l l done a n d t h e y u s e d t o p i c k p o t a t o e s o v e r t h e r e and we'd go h e l p t h e f a r m e r s p i c k p o t a t o e s . Sometimes we u s e d t o t a k e p o t a t o e s home. T h e y ' d g i v e u s s o much. L i k e , i f we d i d n ' t want c a s h we'd g e t p o t a t o e s . We t a k e t h a t home and we d o n ' t n e e d much more f o r o u r w i n t e r supply. B e c a u s e we d i d n ' t h a v e t i m e t o do o u r g a r d e n t h e n . He was t o o b u s y f i s h i n g , a n d I was o v e r t h e r e d r y i n g f i s h . A t t h a t t i m e we d i d n ' t have a h o r s e o r a n y t h i n g t o do t h e ploughing here. So we d i d n ' t do f a r m i n g h e r e r i g h t away. B u t when I was up r i v e r I d i d . B u t h e r e t h e y d i d n ' t , b e c a u s e t h e y had f a r m e r s a l l o v e r h e r e . C h i n e s e , so t h e y d i d n ' bother doing that.  Difficult  t o hear on  t a p e when q u e s t i o n e d .  25 Question;  and  D i d you s e l l  No, j u s t spring.  any o f t h e f i s h  f o r ourselves.  y o u smokeSor c a n n e d ?  Keep u s g o i n g  f o rthe winter  We went t h e r e i n t h e summer a n d s t a y e d t h e r e t i l l late i n the f a l l . O c t o b e r I g u e s s when we come home, h e y Dad, November? We were t h e r e a l l summer t i l l t h e s e a s o n c l o s e d , t h e n we move home. Question;  D i d y o u do t h a t f o r q u i t e a few y e a r s ?  Oh y e a h , many y e a r s . We j u s t move f r o m o n e p l a c e t o the o t h e r . T h e l a s t p l a c e we were a t was i n Westham I s l a n d . We s t a y e d t h e r e I d o n ' t know how many y e a r s — we s t a y t h e r e i n t h e summer a n d f a l l a n d t h e n we come home. G e t e v e r y t h i n g done t h e r e t o o . I ' d smoke f i s h t h e r e t o o , do t h e same t h i n g . I wasn't i d l e . He (Ed) u s e d t o go h u n t i n g . He l i k e d h u n t i n g d u c k s and e v e r y t h i n g . When we w e r e n ' t f i s h i n g h e ' d g e t d u c k s a n d he'd go h u n t i n g game s o m e t i m e s .  26 By with at  comparing the l i s t o f proposed  actual questions presented,  this  with  point i s evident.  responses  little  apprehensive  advantage t o both carried  this  the flexibility  Rose was  she could r e l a t e about tape  questions  even  comfortable  Since  s h e was  a  r e c o r d i n g i n f o r m a t i o n , i t was  o f us t o a l l o w h e r t h i s  uneasiness  i n format  o b v i o u s l y more  to directly.  ( s e e p a g e 10 )  freedom.  an  Grandmother  about d i r e c t q u e s t i o n i n g throughout  the  research. The aboriginal  early  activities  making baskets wood, f i s h i n g family  training  mainly.  and socks  related  t o e a r n i n g money  Leisure  activities  and  weekly  separated  personal  She r e l a t e s type,  family oriented. a  daily  She h a s  marriage, aspects  location,  feature i s the variety  an&discussed  work h i s t o r y ,  After decided  and were  raising  of her season,  and e a r n i n g c a p a c i t y .  e n o u g h t o be p i e c e d  I  goods and w e a l t h .  a pattern: before  t o work  i s to  i s not particularly  around t h e family.  the family.  A conspicuous  brief  into  and f a m i l y h i s t o r y  introduced  collecting  description  work w h i c h  or accumulating  routine revolving  after  gardening,  The t r e n d i n t h i s  sustaining  or  collectingroots,  o f work, Grandmother has o u t l i n e d  her activity  necessity,  or s e l l ,  are discussed b r i e f l y  h e r account  a f a m i l y , work  t o was i n t r a d i t i o n a l  These i n c l u d e d  t o trade  and t r a p p i n g .  o r i e n t e d and l i f e  In  referred  very  by Grandmother.  of  activities  The t r a n s c r i p t  i s a  much o u t o f s e q u e n c e , b u t d e s c r i p t i v e  together.  listening  to this  tape  i t w o u l d be more f e a s i b l e  and t r a n s c r i b i n g  the data  and p r o d u c t i v e t o a l t e r t h e  questioning collecting and  format. data  By d o i n g  on work,  work h i s t o r i e s which  easily.  is  partially  informant less  an i n f o r m a n t could  Grandmother.  subjective  Another  responses.  could  be u t i l i z e d  a result of the close  relationship.  I hoped t o f i n d  a t t i t u d e s t o work, work  Questioning which  s e e m e d i r r e l e v a n t t o my  this  a means  categories,  r e l a t e t o more i n a survey  I t i s possible  predetermined  interviewer  of  may  that  approach this  interviewerhave  elicited  28 3.2  Tape 2 3  Ed  Sparrow  February 18, The  1975  approach t o r e c o r d i n g  t h i s tape with Grandfather  d i f f e r s from the f i r s t r e c o r d i n g w i t h Grandmother. categories  and  c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s of work on a broad c u l t u r a l  l e v e l , the q u e s t i o n i n g was  From  s h i f t e d to a personal  level.  The  stress  t o be on r e c a l l about s e l f r a t h e r than making judgments  s e t t i n g up  classifications.  I f e l t the r e v i s e d q u e s t i o n i n g t o see  and  i f h i s response would be  the summary of work h i s t o r y was  should be t e s t e d w i t h  at a l l s i m i l a r t o Rose's.  If  a s u c c e s s f u l means of c o l l e c t i n g  b a s i c data on o c c u p a t i o n , d i v i s i o n of l a b o r , l o c a t i o n and e t c . , i t would be used to o b t a i n  him  s i m i l a r information  season,  from a  group of i n f o r m a n t s . At t h i s p o i n t the i d e a of working w i t h e i g h t or informants was  still  a p a r t of the o b j e c t i v e .  The  ten  intention  was  to gather a s e r i e s of work h i s t o r y o u t l i n e s i f the work h i s t o r y summary was  feasible.  Data would then be  p o s s i b l e work p a t t e r n s , contributions  followed.  s e a s o n a l c y c l e s , d i v i s i o n of l a b o r ,  t o the d e v e l o p i n g economy.  further b r i e f interviews  a s s i m i l a t e d to determine and  I f t h i s evolved,  r e l a t e d only t o these areas would have  Grandfather was  asked a day  or two  before  recording  t h i s p a r t i c u l a r tape i f he c o u l d be prepared t o r e c o r d  a brief  summary of the work or jobs he had  life.  done throughout h i s  T h i s would i n c l u d e dates, l o c a t i o n , employer, and wherever p o s s i b l e . methodology.  Again, t h i s r e c o r d i n g was  f e l l o w workers  t o be a t e s t o f  29 Grandfather partially for in  this  was  t o p i c had already  work  He w a s  at this  been e s t a b l i s h e d .  the fact  time  small part  Equally  he was n o t i n v o l v e d  session  t o begin  of h i s history —  tape  After  the actual recording, Grandfather  want t o w a i t A slightly  he t h o u g h t s h o u l d  i tshould  while  another  edited version  or  at least  a  e s p e c i a l l y s i n c e Grandmother had  taping.  however, consider  important  for travelling.  recording  begun  d e a l more i n f o r m a t i o n  as  rapport  i n gardening  and had no immediate p l a n s  also w e l l motivated  already  f o r this  because of the family r e l a t i o n s h i p through which  s e l e c t i n g h i m was  other  s e l e c t e d as i n f o r m a n t  recalled  be t o l d .  of these  notes  great  He d i d n o t  n e c e s s a r i l y be r e c o r d e d , t a p e was s e t up.  a  and d i d n o t  Notes were  i s included  enough.  after the  transcript. G r a n d m o t h e r was session.  She was b u s y w i t h  interaction. considered the  would  Grandfather's  employer, to  I t was  the nature  of  instructions.  also stimulate her recall  past  and s h o r t  s p e c i f y how  h e r e was  descriptions.  jobs were  same i n f o r m a t i o n  Rose, b u t w i t h  fewer  intended  to elicit  work, i n c l u d i n g l o c a t i o n ,  f o r events i n  a brief time,  potential.  sought i n t h e f i r s t restrictions  summary  duration,  When p o s s i b l e , h e was  a c q u i r e d , what t h e working o r  c o n d i t i o n s were, and e a r n i n g the  there.  her with  giving specific  to the  own w o r k h i s t o r y . Questioning  of  the recording  from being  of familiarizing  altered questioning, without this  during  h e r own w o r k , b u t l i s t e n i n g  She was n o t d i s c o u r a g e d  a g o o d means  anticipated her  also present  This  asked  living  i s essentially  recording  and g u i d e l i n e s .  session  with  I  30  Tape 23 Recorded: February 18, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrow Musqueam WORK HISTORY OUTLINE I c o u l d s t a r t back i n 1906 and 1907 when I s t a r t e d to work as a k i d , you know. I worked i n t h e c a n n e r i e s s h o o t i n g cans down from t h e can l o f t s . F i v e cents an hour. Question:  Where was t h a t ?  C e l t i c cannery. We d i d t h a t f o r a couple o f y e a r s ( v e r i f y from notes) (worked w i t h Joe P e t e r , A l e x and Andrew P e t e r — we had f u n . I was about t h e youngest). Then l a t e r on we were d r i v i n g l o g s down t h e slough here, you know. There was a c a m p over here j u s t about where the Musqueam Park i s now. I used t o h o l d t h e l i g h t s f o r Dunstan Campbell when they were d r i v i n g l o g s down. Every n i g h t when t h e t i d e was going o u t we'd be o u t t h e r e d r i v i n g l o g s down. Walk a l o n g the dyke. I don't know — he gave ae whatever he f e l t l i k e . W e l l , I was g l a d t o g e t t h e e x t r a odd d o l l a r , you know. I d i d n ' t know where I spent i t . I don't remember. There was no s t o r e o r n o t h i n g . I k i n d o f t h i n k I gave e v e r y t h i n g I made t o my grandmother, you know, because t h e r e was no way o f me spending money here u n l e s s I walked t o Vancouver then,, < Then we used t o go a f t e r cannery work. The grandp a r e n t s go up S a r d i s , C h i l l i w a c k — p i c k hops. I'd h e l p them r i g h t a l o n g p i c k i n g f o r a box o f popcorn o r something. Question:  D i d you spend avmonth o r so up t h e r e , o r a week?  J u s t about a month, I guess we were up t h e r e . Question:  D i d you go up alone o r w i t h t h e f a m i l y ?  You go up on t h e s t e r n wheeler. I t h i n k they c a l l e d i t 'Sampson' then. Every y e a r , w e l l I don't know how l o n g they kept on, b u t they move r i g h t a f t e r ( f i s h i n g season)..  31 They used t o c l o s e t h e season down here, you know, ending J u l y o r so. Then t h e 10th o f August I t h i n k they Used t o c l o s e the season down, no more f i s h i n g from t h e r e on. But the ending o f August people would move r i g h t up t o C h i l l i w a c k for hop p i c k i n g . I used t o go out, g e t up t h e same time as my grandp a r e n t s would. Go up i n t h e f i e l d , 5:00 - 6:00 o ' c l o c k i n the morning, s t a y t h e r e t i l l j u s t about the same time i n the evening, a f t e r n o o n . I don't know what they were g e t t i n g . I don't know how much they were g e t t i n g f o r i t then. Question: all  That's when you were p r e t t y young, i s i t ?  YeahI That's b e f o r e I went t o s c h o o l we were d o i n g t h e s e , you know.  Then i n 1909 I went t o s c h o o l . (Coqualeetza) Nothing much from t h e r e except s c h o o l work. Then 1911 I s t a r t e d b o a t - p u l l i n g f o r my granduncle. S a i l b o a t days then. I s t a r t e d f i s h i n g , you know. I'd f i s h a l l summer w i t h him. Question:  Was t h a t j u s t i n t h e r i v e r  here?  T e r r a Nova Cannery. I t ' s i n t h e middle arm they c a l l it. I used t o f i s h w i t h him maybe, every h o l i d a y I f i s h e d w i t h him f o r a w h i l e . Used t o buy my c l o t h e s and one t h i n g and another. I was s a t i s f i e d you know. I f i s h e d w i t h him about two, t h r e e y e a r s , I guess. In 1913 I f i s h e d w i t h Tommy C o l e . There was t h e b i g g e s t r u n ever I guess, on sockeye a t t h a t time. We'd o n l y make one d r i f t , l i m i t e d t o one hundred and f i f t y sockeye t o one boat every day. I t was t h a t way f o r a l i t t l e over a week t h e r e , l i m i t e d t o one hundred and f i f t y t i l l the run k i n d o f passed over, then they'd open i t o u t a g a i n . We'd go o u t make one d r i f t j u s t when the t i d e s r i g h t and when we get i n I'd go and work i n t h e cannery. I'd h e l p them tallying fish. I done t h a t f o r two, t h r e e y e a r s . Weekends w h i l e I was f i s h i n g w i t h Tommy I used t o go and work a t a n y t h i n g I c o u l d g e t i n t h e cannery, you know. Mostly t a l l y i n g f i s h o r weighing f i s h . Question:  Was i t p r e t t y easy t o g e t on t h e r e ?  W e l l yes, as l o n g as you knew how t o read o r count, or p r e s s t h e c o u n t i n g machine. W e l l , they t r u s t e d me although I was q u i t e young. I knew the manager p r e t t y w e l l t h a t ' s t h e reason why I was g e t t i n g on, I guess. The year a f t e r t h a t 1914, 1915 I f i s h e d w i t h t h e o l d f e l l a a g a i n . Tommy Musqueam, he's a c o u s i n o f my g r a n d f a t h e r . In 1916 I thought I c o u l d handle a boat myself — sailboat. I kept up w i t h t h e guys b u t i t g o t so poor i t wasn't worthwhile f i s h i n g . That's t h e l a s t time I went f i s h i n g f o r a l o n g time a f t e r t h a t .  a  32 I went t o s t a r t w o r k i n g i n t h e Question:  Was  there poor f i s h i n g  l o g g i n g camps.  f o r everybody?  Yes. See t h e r e was a s l i d e i n H e l l ' s G a t e and t h e f i s h c a n ' t g e t t h r o u g h t o spawn. 1913 when t h a t h a p p e n e d . 1914 w a s n ' t t o o b a d , t h e f i s h were g e t t i n g o u t . . . . I t go s o b a d y o u ' d o n l y g e t two h u n d r e d , t h r e e h u n d r e d s o c k e y e i n t h e s e a s o n , w h e r e a s y o u g e t two, t h r e e t h o u s a n d b e f o r e , y o u know. I t g o t s o b a d i t w a s n ' t w o r t h w h i l e , b e c a u s e y o u were o n l y g e t t i n g f i f t e e n o r twenty c e n t s a sockeye then. I w o r k e d i n a l o g g i n g camp e v e r y c h a n c e I g o t , y o u know. I w o r k e d a r o u n d h e r e f o r a w h i l e b u t t h e r e was n o t h i n g much d o i n g h e r e . I went o u t i n camps and s t a y e d t h e r e f o r two, t h r e e months, come home. Gave what I g o t e a r n e d t o my g r a n d m o t h e r , go b a c k a g a i n . I k e p t d o i n g t h a t u n t i l 1918 I s t a r t e d d r i v i n g a team. H a u l i n g wood o u t f o r a wood d e a l e r . I done t h a t f o r a b o u t a y e a r , I g u e s s a r o u n d h e r e . I t was j u s t a s w e l l t o work a t home b e c a u s e y o u g o t t a pay b o a r d i n t h e l o g g i n g camps. I t ' s h a r d t o make a n y t h i n g t o o , y o u know — very l i t t l e . Question:  What wages d i d y o u  get i n the  camps?  T h e y o n l y g i v e me $3 a d a y . I t ' s a t e n hour day. You g o t t a g e t up a t 5:00 and s t a r t w a l k i n g t o g e t t o where t h e work i s a t 7:00 — when t h e w h i s t l e b l o w s i f y o u ' r e n o t t h e r e , they g i v e you a w a l k i n g t i c k e t . Question:  What k i n d s o f  j o b s d i d you  do  i n the  camps?  I s t a r t e d wood b u c k i n g . T h e y had s t e a m d o n k e y s i n them d a y s , y o u know. I u s e d t o go o u t , w a t c h t h o s e g u y s what they're doing. I ' d c u t a w h o l e b u n c h o f wood, g e t a h e a d . T h e n I ' d go o u t and w a t c h what t h e y ' r e d o i n g . I wanted a l i v i n g and I was o n l y g e t t i n g $2.75 a day t h e n a s a wood c u t t e r I g u e s s , I d o n ' t know. You c u t them i n s h o r t l e n g t h s y o u know, j u s t enough t o u s e f o r t h e f i r e p l a c e . T h e n I ' d go o u t and w a t c h . S t a r t w a t c h i n g t h e r i g g i n g s , how t h e y work i t I d i d t h a t f o r a b o u t a month o r s o t h e n I q u i t t h e j o b , came b a c k and h i r e d o u t t h e c h a s e r . You go a l o n g w i t h t h e l o g a s t h e y p u l l them o u t , y o u know. I f they get stuck or h i t a stump o r s o m e t h i n g t h e n y o u c h a n g e t h e h o l d . R o l l i t o r you c a n b a r - b u c k l e t h e t h i n g and jump i t o v e r . I did that for q i t e a while. u  T h e n , l a t e r on I went.... i t was o n l y a b o u t $ 3 a day f o r t h a t j o b , y o u know. We had t o p a y $1 a d a y f o r b o a r d . Then I went h o o k i n g on the s k y l i n e . G e t a l i t t l e more money on t h e r e . T h a t ' s a b o u t the) l a s t j o b I d i d i n t h a t camp. I q u i t t h e r e ( H a l f m o o n Bay) a b o u t 1918, I g u e s s . I was a l l o v e r t h e c o a s t , y o u know. q u i t e o f t e n . You c a n ' t s t a y t o o l o n g i n one t i m e s t h e f o o d i s no g o o d . You o n l y s t a y t i l you g e t out o f t h e r e . One p l a c e I g o t t o o n  I c h a n g e d camps place. Somel payday then Toba I n l e t  33 (1916 o r 17), I t h i n k I l o s t about twenty pounds. I c o u l d n ' t e a t n o t h i n g they had t h e r e . They had no r e f r i g e r a t o r o r i c e box o r n o t h i n g t h e r e . By t h e time t h e food g o t up t h e r e i t ' s r o t t e n . That was bacon and eggs. We got o u t o f t h e r e — t h e r e was t h r e e o r f o u r o f us up t h e r e from here, you know. I f o r g o t — t h e Grants were up there f o r w h i s t l e punk, and Andrew C h a r l e s was t h e r e w i t h me and Joe P e t e r . We had a hard time t o g e t o u t o f t h e r e . That p l a c e was i s o l a t e d . No boats go i n t h e r e ; we had t o h i r e a boat out t o g e t o u t . That was k i n d o f a dangerous p l a c e t h e r e , you know r i g h t on t h e r i v e r . I was twenty b e f o r e I went t o Halfmoon Bay a f t e r t h a t . I was a l l over. I was over on I n d i a n Arm. I was t h e r e working about a couple o f months, I guess i n a l o g g i n g camp t o o . I was r i g g i n g t h i s t h i n g then. That's a l i t t l e b e t t e r job a g a i n . ;  I q u i t then we went back t o work i n the cannery. I was w i t h my w i f e then, you know. We worked i n Vancouver Cannery f o r a l l summer. We made about s e v e n t y - f i v e c e n t s per hour, t h a t ' s a l l we got. Most o f t h e time we were u n l o a d i n g some f i s h . When t h e r e was noi boats around I go on r e t o r t s , go wash cans. Question;  Was t h a t cannery r i g h t i n Vancouver?  On Sea I s l a n d , the south s i d e o f Sea I s l a n d . We worked t h e r e a couple o f seasons, I guess. Then 1920 we went up t o C h i l l i w a c k . We were working t h e r e and we d e c i d e d t o go hop p i c k i n g . We went up i n t h e gas boat a l l t h e way to C h i l l i w a c k . We came down a f t e r i t was a l l over. What was i t , s e v e n t y - f i v e c e n t s a box? Rose Sparrow;  No, a d o l l a r a box.  Ed; I don't know i f we made any money, b u t we got home anyways. The year a f t e r t h a t I c u t wood around here t o make a living. Question;  D i d you s e l l wood l o c a l l y ?  A wood buyer would come down here. the bush around here, you know.  We'd c u t a l l a l o n g  W e l l , a f t e r I got through d r i v i n g a team I got a McGregor t o c u t wood, you know, c u t wood f o r c o n t r a c t i n g . One guy was w i t h me a l l the time. A l o t o f d i f f e r e n t guys worked w i t h me. I'd pay them a d o l l a r a c o r d f o r s p l i t t i n g . I was o n l y g e t t i n g $3 a c o r d f o r t h e wood. I had d i f f e r e n t splitters. Every now and then they'd q u i t . I used t o walk a l l t h e way t o I m p e r i a l Road — t h a t ' s way up about 28th, I guess. Walk t h e r e every morning. Then l a t e r on t h e r e was h a r d l y any more wood t o c u t up t h e r e , you know, a n d we q u i t .  34  I s t a r t e d c u t t i n g s h i n g l e b o l t s j u s t on t h i s s i d e o f UBC. I used t o go up there every day on a b i c y c l e . Worked t h e r e f o r two, t h r e e months, I guess. Then i n the s p r i n g of 1920 we l e f t here, we went up C h i l l i w a c k . And, stayed t h e r e u n t i l i t s t a r t e d t o cap a g a i n (winter). I worked i n l o g g i n g camps. F o r awhile I was j u s t a handyman. Almost anything t h e boss t o l d me t o do you had to do i t o r e l s e get f i r e d . Swamping; i t was a s k i d road camp, team camp they c a l l e d i t i n those days, I guess. They h a u l l o g s w i t h a f o u r horse team, they c a l l e d i t . I'd swamp the roads f o r them and l a y the s k i d s f o r them. I was doing t h a t p r e t t y near a l l summer and p a r t o f the f a l l and w i n t e r . About 1921 I got s t a r t e d working the booms. w i t h i t f o r a l o n g time. Question:  I stayed  I s t h e r e more money i n working the booms?  Oh yeah, I got $5 a day then f o r being a head boom man, you know. That was b i g money I guess i n them days. I d i d n ' t know. The o t h e r guys were g e t t i n g $3.00, $3.50 a day. I was g e t t i n g b e t t e r pay, g e t t i n g as much as t h e teamsters were, I guess. I worked a t Queen's I s l a n d f o r about a year, I guess. I used t o g e t up a t 4:00 i n t h e morning. You can't s t a y t h e r e on account o f t h e f r e s h e t . You have t o c r o s s over on the boat every morning. We used t o g e t up a t 4:00 i n the morning, r u n about a m i l e on a b i k e , g e t on a boat and c r o s s over. Took about an hour t o c r o s s over on a gas boat. I d i d that f o r a l o n g time, then camp moved t o F a i r f i e l d I s l a n d . That's outs i d e o f Rosedale. I stayed on the booms then. I don't know how l o n g we were t h e r e . Then i t moved t o C a n a l . I t was t o o low f o r a boom i n the c a n a l , t o o shallow. That's b e f o r e they dredged i t — the Vedder C a n a l , you know. I had the boom on the o u t s i d e r i g h t on t h e r i v e r . When we f i r s t got t h e r e i n t h e f a l l the c a n a l was t o o low t o boom so I had t o boom on t h e o u t s i d e r i g h t i n the r i v e r . You c o u l d n ' t c o n t r o l n o t h i n g f o r a long time t h e r e . The r i v e r c a t c h t h e t a i l o f the boom and bounce i t up and down. We'd d r i v e l o g s down and the t h i n g would shoot r i g h t underneath (out o f boom). ... The boss was s h o r t o f blaming me f o r i t and I c o u l d n ' t h e l p i t . I t o l d him the o n l y t h i n g they c o u l d do i s l e t a whole bunch o f l o g s down dogged t o gether. L i n e them a l l up and dog i t t o g e t h e r , snub i t down. He says you're gonna l o s e me l o t s o f money i f you l o s e a l l these l o g s . W e l l you've l o s t l o t s a l r e a d y , you've g o t t a t r y something I says t o him. You leave me alone I ' l l see what I can do, I says t o him. He'd a l r e a d y l o s t about f i f t e e n o r twenty l o g s . I got a whole bunch o f l o g s , l a i d them a b r e a s t and dogged them up. Bind them up t i g h t and you lower i t down w i t h a team by b l o c k , h i t the t a i l and i t stopped bouncing.  35 And for  we h a d a s n u b b e r t h e r e t o h o l d i t . a long time, a l l winter.  T h a t ' s how we d i d i t  I n t h e meantime t h e y d r e d g e d t h e c a n a l a n d I boomed t h e r e f o r , oh, about a y e a r , I guess, r i g h t through t h e winter, L o g s were dumped o n t o p o f t h e i c e . You g o t t a b e c a r e f u l what y o u do t h e r e . F a l l o v e r b o a r d i f t h e r e ' s i c e o n y o u r shoe. M u s t h a v e b e e n a b o u t 1926. I g o t a h e a d o f my s t o r y somewhere. I n 1924 I went b a c k f i s h i n g a g a i n i n t h e summer months I s t a r t e d t o go up S k e e n a . When I g e t b a c k f r o m f i s h i n g I ' d go b a c k t o t h e camp a g a i n , y o u know. The j o b was a l w a y s o p e n f o r me t h e r e o n t h e boom. T h e y g i v e me two months o f f e v e r y y e a r . I d i d t h a t f o r 1924 u n t i l 1927 t h e n we moved home. F i s h e d e v e r y y e a r up S k e e n a . Question; D i d t h e f a m i l y go w i t h y o u t o Skeena? u s e a company b o a t ?  D i d you  No, I was g o i n g up t h e r e a l o n e f o r a w h i l e . I used a company b o a t — s a i l b o a t days. T h e r e was no g a s b o a t s up t h e r e t h e n , y o u know. T h e y were towed up and down t h e r e . You n e v e r g e t d r i f t s i f t h e r e ' s no w i n d . A t u g boat would be w a i t i n g down a t t h e mouth o f t h e r i v e r . You g o t t a l i n e up a w h o l e b u n c h o f g u y s b e f o r e h e ' l l tow y o u b a c k a g a i n , b e c a u s e y o u c a n ' t p u l l (row) a g a i n s t t h e s t r e a m , t i d e . A w h o l e b u n c h o f .us w o u l d come up t o g e t h e r . T h e same t h i n g was h a p p e n i n g a r o u n d S t e v e s t o n , a l l a l o n g t h e r e . T h e y h a d t u g b o a t s w a i t i n g f o r them. No w i n d and t h e y ' d tow them u p s t r e a m and t e y ' d a l l s t a r t d r i f t i n g down a g a i n . I was d o i n g t h a t f o r a b o u t t h r e e y e a r s t h e n I g o t a company g a s b o a t . They j u s t c u t o f f t h e o l d s a i l b o a t . C u t down p a r t o f t h e b l o o d y s t e r n , p u t a s h a f t and p r o p e l l e r t h e r e , f i v e - s i x horsepower motor. L o n g a s i t made n o i s e y o u t h o u g h t y o u were g o i n g t o b e a t h e l l ! I d i d that f o r a couple o f years. T h e n I g o t my own b o a t i n 1928. I m a g i n e g e t t i n g a new b o a t f o r $1,180! E n g i n e , e v e r y t h i n g c o m p l e t e . That's what I p a i d f o r t h e f i r s t o n e I g o t , y o u know. We g o t f r e e nets then. A s l o n g a s y o u went up t h e r e and w o r k e d f o r t h e company t h e y gave y o u f r e e n e t s . No m a t t e r how much l e a d l i n e y o u l o s e , t h e y change i t f o r y o u , g i v e y o u some more a t no c o s t . Question;  What company was  this?  W a l l a c e , Tom W a l l a c e (B.C. P a c k e r s t o o k o v e r E d S.) I g u e s s i t was 1928 - 29 when t h e c a n n i n g c o m p a n i e s a m a l g a mated. B. C. P a c k e r s , Tom W a l l a c e and some o f t h e o t h e r companies. T h a t ' s when t h e y became B. C. P a c k e r s , t h a t ' s what s h e ' s (Rose Sparrow) t a l k i n g a b o u t . I d i d a l l r i g h t b u t f i s h were s o p o o r . Actually a l o t o f s a l m o n a l l r i g h t , b u t p r i c e was p o o r . The f i r s t y e a r I went up t h e r e I was o n l y g e t t i n g 20? a s o c k e y e , 1924.  36 But we d i d n ' t know t h e p l a c e , but I managed t o come home w i t h a couple hundred d o l l a r s from t h e r e . That was q u i t e good money i n them days, you know. I t h i n k i t was 1930 sockeye were o n l y 35* each then. I t stayed t h a t way f o r '35, '36, '37. F i n a l l y i n '42 i t reached 50* a p i e c e . There was a b i g s t r i k e on i n 1930 up t h e r e (Skeena). We o n l y f i s h e d about f o u r weeks. W e l l , I was onto t h e r i v e r then. I d i d p r e t t y w e l l , I came home w i t h $400-$500, I guess. Question:  D i d you g e t a h i g h e r p r i c e f o r your  strike?  No, we j u s t wasted time t i e d up f o r t h r e e weeks. The Japanese A s s o c i a t i o n were l o o k i n g a f t e r i t then. I mean they were the l e a d e r s . Up t o today we don't know i f they got a b e t t e r p r i c e f o r t h e i r f i s h o r not. Anyways they Ve-v»t b&z.y:ir\^ o f f and never l e t us know when they went o f f , you know. They might have had f o u r t o f i v e hundred sockeye b e f o r e we got o u t . No warning. I suppose they got s e t t l e m e n t o f some k i n d but we d i d n ' t g e t i t . I should have t o l d you about 1913. There was a b i g s t r i k e on too, you know. F i f t e e n cents a p i e c e f o r sockeye a t t h a t time. We were t i e d up f o r about a week, week and a h a l f , I guess I kept f i s h i n g year a f t e r y e a r , c u t wood i n the o f f season, trapped. D i d p r e t t y w e l l t r a p p i n g muskrats, o n l y i t ' s hard work. By time you g e t through and g e t home i t ' s 3 - 4 o ' c l o c k i n the morning, sometimes d a y l i g h t when I'd get home. Go over our t r a p s mostly a t n i g h t time, u n t i l about February, then we go a t daytime, e a r l y i n the morning. Q u e s t i o n:  D i d you t r a p r i g h t around  here?  A l l over — Sea I s l a n d , L u l u I s l a n d , go o u t i n t h e c a r , and I trapped a c r o s s t h e r e on Iona I s l a n d . Your dad (Ron Sparrow, Sr.) used t o go t r a p w i t h me when he f i r s t l e f t school. We had t o keep going t o make a l i v i n g . Things were k i n d a hard. I t was hard t o make money. I f you d i d n ' t make any more than $400 - $500 a y e a r . We managed t o l i v e on about $400 - $500 a year then. As the f a m i l y i n c r e a s e d I had t o keep on working. No time t o l a y o f f . I kept c u t t i n g wood. Sometimes you c a n ' t g e t a buyer, your wood would be l a y i n g t h e r e f o r awhile. You wonder how you're going t o make your d o l l a r . A f t e r , i f I got stuck w i t h wood I'd go back t r a p p i n g a g a i n . We d i d good a t times. Other times, I t h i n k i n 1940 f u r s were r e a l cheap — 40* a p i e c e f o r muskrats. I don't know what happened t h a t time.  37 FISHERMEN'S STRIKE: 1913 I t h i n k they got 15* ia f i s h ) A buyer came around. When you throw your n e t o f f , you know you g e t f o u r t o f i v e hundred sockeyes. What a r e you going t o do w i t h the rest? Some o f them j u s t threw i t away. Question:  Was t h e r e a quota on how many you c o u l d t u r n i n ?  Yes, one hundred and f i f t y . That's a l l they were allowed t o s e l l p e r day. I t ( s t r i k e ) went on f o r a week, a l i t t l e over a week maybe. I don't know what would have happened i f we f i s h e d r i g h t through. During the s t r i k e m i l l i o n s and m i l l i o n s o f f i s h went through, you know. When i t was open, h e l l , we j u s t throw o u t seventy, e i g h t y fathoms (of net) . We'd j u s t throw i t o u t and p i c k i t r i g h t up a g a i n . We had f i v e hundred I t h i n k t h e f i r s t s e t w i t h a s h o r t n e t . We went t o the cannery, they took o n l y one hundred and f i f t y . We threw away the r e s t . You c o u l d n ' t h o l d i t t i l l t h e next day because i t was t o o warm — they g e t s o f t , threw i t a l l away. The next day we p l a y e d i t smart. We outsmarted ours e l v e s I guess. The buyer came around and was paying 5C a p i e c e f o r them. Tommy Cole had about t h r e e hundred over t h e l i m i t , he got 5<= a p i e c e f o r them. B i g d e a l ! $15 f o r t h r e e hundred f i s h ! Question:  That was a l o c a l f i s h d e a l e r ?  Yes, he came from Vancouver I guess. He (Tommy Cole) was g l a d t o g e t r i d o f i t i n s t e a d o f throwing i t away. You get n o t h i n g f o r i t when you throw i t away. That was a long way back, you know — 1913. I t was mostly s a i l b o a t s — h a r d l y any gas boats, two c y c l e b o a t s . No m u f f l e r s on them, you c o u l d hear the damn t h i n g s bang away f o r m i l e s . Question:  Was t h e r e two men on every boat?  Oh yes, s a i l boats you know. One guy would be p u l l i n g w i t h t h e o a r s and t h e o t h e r guy would be throwing the n e t o u t i n t h e s t e r n , you know. You had t o heave i t o u t . I used t o have a heck o f a time t h e f i r s t time I went o u t w i t h my granduncle. Sometimes you put up the s a i l a l i t t l e b i t when you g e t a f a i r wind when you're throwing o u t . L e t t h e n e t out and s t e e r w i t h an o a r . You got a r o l l e r i n t h e s t e r n , you know and i t r o l l s r i g h t out. That's what I d i d when I was f i s h i n g alone i n 1916. My c o u s i n John f i s h e d w i t h me f o r awhile. F i s h was so poor he got d i s g u s t e d and q u i t . He  38 stayed w i t h me about three weeks. We weren't making no money. $150 f o r a n e t , and g e t t i n g 15* a sockeye. I t h i n k I got about two hundred sockeyes a l l season. That's a l o t b e t t e r than some o f the guys d i d , you know. That's about a l l I c o u l d t e l l you f o r now want t o pay me more. Question: Could you t e l l me Chilliwack?  unless  about working when you  you  l i v e d at  LIVING AT CHILLIWACK - C u t t i n g Pulpwood I f o r g o t what we were g e t t i n g . You c u t cottonwood i n l i t t l e b e t t e r than cordwood l e n g t h . I was c u t t i n g w i t h her (Rose) r e l a t i o n s . Three o f them worked t o g e t h e r . I t h i n k we were g e t t i n g $2 a cord f o r pulpwood, you know. You g o t t a p e e l i t , s p l i t i t and p i l e i t . F i r s t of a l l you f a l l the t r e e and c u t i t up i n t o the r i g h t l e n g t h s . That's why we o n l y do two - three cords a day. You get a bad day you h a r d l y do anything. Some o f the wood i s tough, t w i s t e d — you can't split i t . I used t o do t h a t almost every w i n t e r when the camps c l o s e down. Sometimes we got t o l a y o f f from t h a t t o o , i t gets so c o l d . You can't s p l i t the wood, i t f r e e z e s . Lots of sap i n pulpwood. I t ' s wet wood, you know. When I q u i t I s t a r t e d as a t r u c k swamper working w i t h a guy h a u l i n g pulpwood a l l over the p l a c e . We'd load i t a l l , unload i t . He bought a l l the pulpwood people here were c u t t i n g . F i v e - s i x cords a l o a d we were h a u l i n g i n a b i g t r u c k , t r a i l e r t r u c k I guess i t was. Load i t onto box c a r s o r open c a r s you know — t h a t ' s hard work. I'd do t h a t f o r a few years when the camps c l o s e . That's when t h e r e ' s a hard f r e e z e up i n the w i n t e r you know, we j u s t p i l e the l o g s up on the bank. When they get so much they j u s t c l o s e e v e r y t h i n g down. Then I'd go and c u t . Oh, I d i d a l o t of t r a p p i n g up there t o o , you know. When we f i r s t moved up there I d i d w e l l t r a p p i n g up t h e r e . Nobody h a r d l y trapped up t h e r e . I s o r t o f s t a r t e d them o f f I guess. I trapped as soon as I got up t h e r e , the f i r s t w i n t e r we were up t h e r e . I d i d n ' t know how t o s k i n those t h i n g s , she (Rose S.) d i d a l l t h a t work. I j u s t b r i n g home the muskrat and she d i d i t a l l f o r me. I d i d w e l l t h e r e , we made a good l i v i n g t h e r e w h i l e we were t h e r e . B e t t e r than s t a y i n g home here. Worked r i g h t through and trapped. Question: Was - Musqueam)?  i t harder  to f i n d work down here?  (Vancouver  Yes, u n l e s s you were a l o g g e r . And then you g o t t a walk, you know. There was a l o g g i n g camp about 28th, 29th  39 Avenue there I guess. You g o t t a get up t h e r e , you g o t t a go to work about 7:00 p r e t t y near a l l over. There was a l o g g i n g camp a t 51st Avenue, way up p a s t where Magee High School i s . now. There was a m i l l t h e r e and l o g g i n g camp, you„know. I t ' s so f a r t o walk. There was no roads, j u s t t r a i l s you know. There was j u s t one road going t o New Westminster. You c a n ' t even r i d e a b i k e on a rough road l i k e t h a t . The buggies, every time they h i t a r o c k , i t would bounce r i g h t over; wagons same t h i n g . No paved roads then. Year a f t e r year a f t e r (during) the f o r t i e s , you know I f i s h e d i n the summer months and c u t wood. I f I d i d n ' t do good I c u t wood j u s t about a l l w i n t e r , and t r a p p e d . Made a home and went t r a p p i n g . I f o r g o t , when Ronny came out o f s c h o o l we trapped t o g e t h e r . We'd go t o Sea I s l a n d , L u l u I s l a n d e a r l y i n the morning b e f o r e daybreak, go around w i t h a f l a s h l i g h t l o o k i n g a t our t r a p s . Sometimes we'd do good, o t h e r times n o t h i n g . Make $10 - $15 a day. Then when we'd get home I'd go c u t cordwood. She (Rose) d i d a l l the s k i n n i n g . Sometimes we'd get f i f t e e n - twenty a morning we were o n l y g e t t i n g a d o l l a r a p i e c e , you know. You g o t t a dry i t and take a l l the f a t o f f . You get an average of a d o l l a r a p i e c e I guess a t t h a t time. L a t e r on i t came t o about $3.50 a p i e c e . When W i l l a r d f i r s t came out o f s c h o o l we made j u s t about $1,000 by Christmas one year. Nothing but t r a p p i n g . There were a l o t o f r a t s t h a t year t o o . One day we had f o r t y - t w o muskrats. We went t o L u l u I s l a n d , Sea I s l a n d . I had j u s t about t h r e e hundred t r a p s a l t o g e t h e r , you know. We l a i d them out b e f o r e the season opened, j u s t s t i c k them out. Then when the season opened, you go through the l i n e and open the t r a p s o u t . Kept doing t h a t year a f t e r y e a r . As I get o l d e r . . . . a s my c h i l d r e n grew up I made headway, you know. I never bothered about c u t t i n g wood or t r a p p i n g no more. J u s t stayed w i t h f i s h i n g t i l l November and I q u i t , l a y around a l l w i n t e r j u s t about. But when they were growing up I c o u l d n ' t l a y around otherwise we'd have a h e l l of a time. We d i d e v e r y t h i n g t o l i v e . I even worked i n a Chinese garden f o r 20* an hour weeding and hoeing. R i g h t up u n t i l the time I q u i t ( f i s h i n g ) a couple o f y e a r s ago, I j u s t took i t easy though. Summer months and f a l l , quit. I never worked i n w i n t e r no more. I g o t t a take i t easy because I want t o l i v e t i l l I'm 1021 Question: D i d you have your own were f i s h i n g ?  boat most of time w h i l e you  Oh, yes. A f t e r I got my f i r s t boat p a i d o f f i t was e a s i e r f o r me. When you're s t a r t i n g o f f you have a heck o f a time. E s p e c i a l l y w i t h a f a m i l y you have t o pay so much out of your earnings every y e a r . You have a c o n t r a c t - $500 $600 a year, whatever i t t a k e s . That was hard t o make a t times. F i s h was so cheap. My f i r s t boat I had t o pay $500  40  a y e a r . I was l u c k y t o make $1,000 you know. P i s h wasn't t h a t p l e n t i f u l t h e way i t i s now. A f t e r t h e s l i d e i n H e l l ' s Gate i n 1913, they j u s t went down t o n o t h i n g . The o n l y p l a c e where... i t even happened t o be poor up n o r t h on the Skeena R i v e r . We never made n o t h i n g , t h e F r a s e r was so poor. I t was 1930 when i t s t a r t e d t o p i c k up, change. The s t a r t o f Adams r u n was 1930. You know i t was a k i n d o f s u r p r i s i n g season. Got a l o t o f f i s h , but 30* a p i e c e — you c o u l d n ' t make money o u t o f t h a t , you had t o g e t so many f i s h . That was t h e s t a r t . Things s t a r t e d t o change, b u i l d up a f t e r they c l e a r e d H e l l ^ s G a t e , you know. The f i s h s t a r t e d t o come back. They made l a d d e r s and e v e r y t h i n g — i t got narrower a f t e r the s l i d e you know. I don't know which one o f the r a i l r o a d companies was b l a s t i n g t h e r e ; they never t o l d they b l o c k e d the r i v e r up and t h e f i s h can't g e t by. From 1913 they kept dying o f f , d y i n g o f f . Nobody knew what was going on u n t i l an American Surveyor went w a l k i n g around t h e r e and happened t o see i t . The two c o u n t r i e s met and agreed t o h e l p one another w i t h t h e expense t o c l e a r i t p r o v i d i n g they d i v i d e up the salmon. That's how the Americans get h a l f o f the salmon as they were coming i n from then on. I t s t a r t e d to b u i l d up. Well d u r i n g t h e war we were l i m i t e d t o f i s h i n g days. They d i d g r a d u a l l y b r i n g them back t h a t way. Sometimes we o n l y f i s h one - two days a week. I t ' s been t h a t way as f a r as I remember from, I guess 1940 o r '42 when they s t a r t e d t h a t you know. The Adams r u n came back i n a h u r r y b u t t h e o t h e r runs were almost wiped out. Stelakwo, F r a s e r Lake and o t h e r s . A c c o r d i n g t o r e c o r d s some o f them had o n l y twenty - t h i r t y sockeye r e t u r n t o spawn. The fishermen were making n o t h i n g . We d i d n ' t g e t f i s h i n g days w h i l e they were b u i l d i n g up days. The most we got was t h r e e days a l l t h a t time. I t ' s s t i l l t h a t way — t h e y ' r e s t i l l l i m i t i n g f i s h i n g days. Worse than ever now, I guess, because t h e r e ' s so many fishermen. Q u e s t i o n: I guess i t was p r e t t y d i f f i c u l t t o move around up and down the coast? Nobody ever thought o f d o i n g t h a t u n t i l they got f a s t e r b o a t s . We used t o go up i n gas boats year a f t e r year from 1928 when I bought my boat u n t i l 1942 when I q u i t g o i n g to Skeena R i v e r . Move my f a m i l y up t h e r e on t h e boat. When Ronny went up t h e r e , he s t a r t e d 1942 I guess when he got h i s boat. He was j u s t going on s i x t e e n when he f i r s t s t a r t e d o f f you know. He was one o f t h e l u c k y ones. He p a i d o f f h i s boat t h e f i r s t year he g o t i t . I t h i n k he bought i t f o r $1,500, something l i k e t h a t . He p a i d i t o f f , p a i d me back what I p u t down f o r him. I gave him a good t a l k i n g t o when he g o t t h a t boat — no f o o l i n g around. Somebody had t o t a l k t o him. He thought I was b e i n g tough b u t l a t e r on he  41  r e a l i z e d I was r i g h t , you had t o work. you§d never make n o t h i n g you know.  I f you d i d n ' t work  L o t s o f them guys here got b o a t s , and easy come easy go back I guess. They l o s t t h e i r b o a t s . They'd go out f o r a l i t t l e w h i l e , come back i n . A l l my f a m i l y worked p r e t t y hard t o get what they got now. They never f o o l around l i k e o t h e r guys you know. Go t h e r e and f i s h p u l l i n t o shore, start drinking f o o l i n g around. That's t h e way i t ended f o r a l o t o f these guys. They l o s t t h e i r boats and e v e r y t h i n g . Question:  D i d t h e companies take t h e i r boats back?  Oh y e s . They d i d n ' t pay f o r them. They d i d n ' t show any f i s h i n t h e f i s h book. Then t h e r e ' s something going on, you're s e l l i n g o r something. P r e t t y near a l l these guys who were younger than I am had boats around here, you know. They a l l l o s t i t f o r n o t t a k i n g c a r e o f themselves, n o t working. Question:  What companies d i d you f i s h f o r over t h e years?  B. C. Packers mostly. I was f i s h i n g T e r r a Nova or the B. C. Packers. I n 1924 I f i s h e d Oceanic - t h a t was B. C. P a c k e r s . 1925 I moved t o C l a x t o n - i t was s t i l l under Wallace. Wallace Canning Co. I t h i n k i t was 1929 when they amalgamated w i t h B. C. Packers. I t ' s q u i t e a s t o r y about going up and down the c o a s t w i t h gas boats you know. Sometimes we were stranded f o r two - t h r e e days i n one spot when i t ' s blowing. Other times we have i t good, no wind r i g h t through. One time we were going up w i t h the whole f a m i l y . We got caught i n Johnstone S t r a i g h t ; we were t h e r e f o r t h r e e days. Crossed o v e r . A f t e r we got going we went t o C h r i s t i e Pass t o c r o s s t h e Sound. We got a c r o s s and another b i g storm came. We stayed t h e o t h e r s i d e o f Namu f o r two o r t h r e e days I guess. We had a t e n t i n t h e s t e r n o f t h e boat f o r the kids to sleep. » I t was q u i t e rough. We had t o do i t . That's the o n l y way we were g e t t i n g any money a t a l l was f i s h i n g up n o r t h . Question:  Do you remember t h e names o f the boats you had?  The f i r s t one I had was S e a b i r d . The next one was S e a b i r d I I , b e f o r e t h e t h i r d boat I had was S e a b i r d I I I . The l a s t boat I g o t , I had i t f o r about twenty y e a r s . I r e b u i l t that thing. I t was A r c t i c P r i n c e — t h a t ' s the l a s t boat I had. I q u i t a f t e r t h a t . I had t o r e b u i l d i t . I t c o s t me about $4,000 - $5,000 t o r e b u i l d i t ; i t ' s good as new. I made k i n d o f a f o o l i s h move t h e r e , I s o l d i t so cheap you know. I shouldn't have q u i t t o s t a r t w i t h because the p r i c e s o f l i c e n s e s and boats have gone sky h i g h a f t e r I s o l d mine.  42 Q u e s t i o n; When d i d you s e l l t h a t boat? government buy-back?  Was  t h a t on the  In 1972, Roy's boy, W i l f r e d Wilson bought i t . He kept a f t e r me, a f t e r me. I d i d n ' t want t o s e l l i t t o him. W e l l , I was o n l y k i d d i n g when I t o l d him i t would be $7,000 - $8,000. R i g h t away they got me, and I hated t o go back on i t . I knew i t was too cheap. I hated t o go back on the p r i c e . I should have got $10,000 - $12,000 f o r t h a t boat you know. Anyway, I don't mind. I t don't even bother me now. I don't even t h i n k about f i s h i n g no more. A l o t of guys l i k e t o go back t o i t . I f I ever get a boat I'd be f i s h i n g f o r my own s e l f . I don't want t o work hard anymore. Question;  Could you t e l l me when you bought your boats?  1928, i n B-arch when I bought the f i r s t one. Then I had t h a t f o r t e n y e a r s . Be '38 or '30 when I s o l d i t . I must have had i t f o r twenty y e a r s . 1942 I s o l d i t f o r $480. I o n l y p a i d $1,170, $1,180 f o r i t , new. Things were so cheap. Then I bought S e a b i r d I I I guess r i g h t a f t e r I s o l d t h a t , bought i t i n 1943 i n the s p r i n g . That c o s t me money, over $5,000 f o r t h a t one. A b i g g e r boat, but I d i d n ' t l i k e it. I o n l y kept i t f o r two - t h r e e y e a r s , and s o l d i t . I bought a l i t t l e one d u r i n g the war days. I think i t was the second year o f the war. I was l u c k y , I got t h a t one f o r $1,100. Boats were coming up i n p r i c e then. I got t h a t one f o r $1,100. I f i s h e d t h a t one f o r q u i t e a l o n g time u n t i l about 1952. I s o l d thatjsarae boat f o r $3,500. That's when the Japanese s t a r t e d t o come back. In 1953 I got the new one, b u i l t . That c o s t me $5,500, $6,000. I c a n ' t r e c a l l e x a c t l y what I p a i d f o r t h a t one. C l o s e t o $6,000 by the time I got through. I t wasn't too b i g , j u s t the way I wanted i t . I d i d n ' t l i k e the g r e a t b i g b o a t s . Mostly r i v e r f i s h i n g . . . I d i d . I kept t h a t u n t i l I q u i t i n '72. I got i t r e b u i l t about t h r e e - f o u r y e a r s before I q u i t . I t was about 32' l o n g , 8' beam. Question;  D i d you l e t anyone e l s e f i s h your boats?  No. I t r i e d i t one y e a r , t r i e d my grandsons but I never made no money out o f i t , I go i n the h o l e . I worked i n the (Musqueam Band) O f f i c e then as b u s i n e s s manager and I l e t B r i a n run i t f o r me. I went i n the h o l e so I q u i t the b u s i n e s s manager and went f i s h i n g a g a i n . I d i d n ' t i n t e n d to q u i t but the way t h i n g s were going w i t h my boat I had t o . I was j u s t l o s i n g money. I t was c o s t i n g too much t o keep the gear up. We were o n l y g e t t i n g $1,100 a year i n the o f f i c e then. That was not enough you know I went back t o  43  fishing. I could make more at t h a t , sometimes make i t i n one n i g h t . I went back ( t o f i s h i n g ) a g a i n u n t i l I r e t i r e d . That's 1972 when I q u i t . I haven't been on a gas boat s i n c e .  44 These tapes work  and l i f e .  reveal  the importance o f kinship  The p r i n c i p l e s o f l e a r n i n g work  e x p e r i e n c e were r e i n f o r c e d . or  f o r changing  jobs  or  convenience —  —  Some r e a s o n s  money, w o r k i n g  teaching  children  mentioned k i n s h i p with  h i s own l i f e .  self-support  years,  impressions  Mobility  force  the labor  been introduced. ations job  An i m p o r t a n t  made b y G r a n d f a t h e r .  expectations,  progressions confidence  and m o t i v a t i o n .  e v e n t s , he has c o n t r i b u t e d From t h e d a t a be  he has  responsibility  associated  and evaluations  and w i t h i n feature  of  jobs.  geographic areas has  t o note  i s self  evalu-  He h a s m e n t i o n e d h i s c a p a c i t i e s ,  experiences, motivations  i n h i s jobs.  t o work,  o f h i s work h i s t o r y i n  sequences g i v i n g personal within  and advances o r  His presentation In addition facts  indicates  t o these  on l o c a l h i s t o r y  so f a r , a possible  self  personal and development.  y e a r ' s work  cycle  can  outlined: spring  —  summer —  fall  winter  —  —  jobs  better job,  learning  and r e s p o n s i b i l i t y ;  parts  certain  Grandfather.  r e l a t i o n s and f a m i l y He p l a c e s  gaining  fortaking  conditions,  have been r e l a t e d by  He h a s s u m m a r i z e d h i s s c h o o l  and  ties i n  garden o c c a s i o n a l l y logging fishing fishing or logging cannery work i n e a r l y  years  fishing logging hop p i c k i n g , c h i l d t o e a r l y m a r r i e d c u t w o o d some y e a r s trapping logging — variety c u t , h a u l wood.  of jobs  here  years  Following could  h i s job outline,  locations,  be d e t e r m i n e d more e a s i l y Information  examining  separate  i n the tape sections  leading to misrepresentation Interviewing in and  testing  uneasy w i t h be  recorded.  being  i n giving  Since  of the tape  could  of Grandfather's  approach.  and asked  This  and  distort  information,  life. was  the next  informant  was  However, he  that  he h a d no a p p r e h e n s i o n s  w r i t t e n d o w n , I made n o t e s  account.  i s a l l inter-related,  of information.  a tape recorder,  mobility, etc.  accurately.  a second male i n f o r m a n t  t h e work h i s t o r y  cooperative  and  earnings,  willing  felt  the information about  of h i s brief  These notes have n o t been i n c l u d e d  phase  but  not  information informative  i n this  data.  46 3.3  Tape 2 4  Ed  Sparrow  February Conversation  27,  1975  a f t e r r e c o r d i n g Tape 2 3 c e n t e r e d  around  p o s s i b l e areas  o f t h e w o r k h i s t o r y w h i c h c o u l d be f u r t h e r  investigated.  Grandfather  s e v e r a l areas with this  and  l e f t out a great d e a l .  incompleteness.  record another  F r o m 1952  He  Brotherhood, He was  u n t i l 19 72 he was  but not informed  has  o f B.  C.  him,  of the extent of h i s  for this interview.  t o prompt the b e g i n n i n g .  No  4  b e e n made i n t h e  He  had no  c o m p l e t e l y on r e c a l l , b u t no q u e s t i o n i n g was  about h i s involvement  to  to  involved with organization  aware o f h i s a s s o c i a t i o n w i t h t h e  w e l l prepared  relying  arranged  r e l e v a n t t o h i s work h i s t o r y .  m e n t i o n -of t h i s p h a s e o f h i s l i f e I was  over  seemed d i s s a t i s f i e d  important  a d m i n i s t r a t i o n of the N a t i v e Brotherhood  recording.  skipped  A t h i s s u g g e s t i o n , we  p h a s e o f h i s l i f e w h i c h was  and w h i c h I f e l t was  and  h i m s e l f f e l t he h a d  Native involvement. notes, required  I simply advised Grandfather  w i t h the Native  earlier  to  tell  Brotherhood.  ^Refer to: D r u c k e r , P., The N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d s : M o d e r n I n t e r t r i b a l O r g a n i z a t i o n on t h e N o r t h w e s t C o a s t . B u l l e t i n of the Bureau of A m e r i c a n E t h n o l o g y , No. 16 8, S m i t h s o n i a n I n s t i t u t e , W a s h i n g t o n , 1958. Kopas, L e s l i e , P o l i t i c a l A c t i o n of the Indians of B r i t i s h C o l u m b i a , M. A. T h e s i s , U n i v e r s i t y o f B r i t i s h C o l u m b i a , V a n c o u v e r , B. C. 1972. o f B.  C.  G l a d s t o n e , P. N a t i v e I n d i a n s and t h e F i s h i n g I n d u s t r y C a n a d i a n J o u r n a l o f E c o n o m i c s and P o l i t i c a l S c i e n c e .  J a m i e s o n , S. and P. G l a d s t o n e , U n i o n i s m i n t h e F i s h i n g Industry of B r i t i s h Columbia. C a n a d i a n J o u r n a l o f E c o n o m i c s and P o l i t i c a l Science. V o l . 16, No" 1, pp. 1-11, No. 2, pp. 1 4 6 - 1 7 1 .  47  Questions  asked  up b y G r a n d f a t h e r . details to  relating  s h o w how  Other questions  the Native Brotherhood  considerations.  points  brought  prompted him t o enlarge  t o the operation of the Native Brotherhood,  Recollections  important,  were g e n e r a l l y t o c l a r i f y  eventually brought education  From h e r e ,  opening  benefited Native  a new  h i s own  line  education  or  fishermen. into his  and t r a i n i n g  for investigation.  on  became  48  Tape 24 Recorded:  February 27, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrow, S r . WORK HISTORY —  NATIVE BROTHERHOOD  I t was 1952 o r 53 when I f i r s t took i n the N a t i v e Brotherhood. F o r a w h i l e I d i d n ' t b e l i e v e i n them, you know. I was a member o f the Fisherman's P r o t e c t i v e A s s o c i a t i o n from t h e time I s t a r t e d f i s h i n g u n t i l 1952 o r 53. Then I j o i n e d the N a t i v e Brotherhood. F o r awhile they d i d n ' t want t o have a n y t h i n g t o do w i t h the Southern people. In 1930 they had a b i g s t r i k e up Skeena and they wouldn't r e c o g n i z e us, you know, wouldn't c a l l us t o t h e i r meetings and one t h i n g and another. That's the reason why I d i d n ' t want t o have anything t o do w i t h them. Then I s t a r t e d o r g a n i z i n g i n 1953. They were broke, we had t o g e t some money somewhere. I s t a r t e d s i g n i n g a whole bunch o f guys from Canoe Pass. I got q u i t e a few from here. P r e t t y near a l l the fishermen t h a t were heie I guess j o i n e d up. Then I went u p r i v e r and got them guys a l l signed up up t h e r e — K a t z i e , some from Langley. I went a c r o s s t o Chemainus and signed them up, Kuper I s l a n d . I f i t wasn't f o r t h a t I t h i n k the N a t i v e Brotherhood would have wemt on the s k i d s . We were broke, n o t h i n g a t a l l . There were j u s t Northern members, and I don't t h i n k they were a b l e t o keep up t h e i r o r g a n i z a t i o n w i t h t h e i r f e e s . I t was o n l y $3.50. You can't do b u s i n e s s w i t h seven - e i g h t hundred members and h o l d o f f a t the same time, you know, a t $3.50. We had a meeting a f t e r and I t o l d them you guys should r a i s e your bloody f e e s otherwise y o u ' l l go f l a t a g a i n - Next time you go f l a t , I s a i d , I ' l l never g i v e you one penny. So they r a i s e d the f e e s the f o l l o w i n g year t o $10, I t h i n k i t was. That s t i l l wasn't enough but they were scared t o take too much o f a jump you know. Maybe t h e members would q u i t and j o i n the P r o t e c t i v e A s s o c i a t i o n a g a i n . Then the Union was j u s t s t a r t i n g then i n 1944 you know. Nobody was j o i n i n g them. P r e t t y near a l l (natives?) belonged t o the P r o t e c t i v e A s s o c i a t i o n but when t h e Union formed i t was a very weak t h i n g you know. They amalgamated w i t h the P r o t e c t i v e A s s o c i a t i o n . There was a l o t o f crooked t h i n g s going on, you know. They d i d n ' t know where the bloody fees were going, so they l o s t a l o t o f members. From t h e r e on I stayed w i t h them.  I had a p r e t t y hard  49  time w i t h them. There was no r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s down here, you know. We kept up w i t h t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n I t h i n k , Nahanee (Squamish Band )and a few o t h e r guys here. We d i d n ' t seem t o be g e t t i n g no h e l p from t h e Northern group. Anyways 1953, '54 we b u i l t r i g h t up so we had about the same amount o f members as the Union had. We had them on t h e run f o r a w h i l e . They ... o n l y t h i n g , t h a t o r g a n i z a t i o n c o u l d n ' t get a c h a r t e r because i t was an a s s o c i a t i o n . I t wasn't under a labour code. They weren't r e c o g n i z e d . That was the reason why t h e Union s t a r t e d t o form. They j o i n e d the l a b o r congress and they came up s t r o n g e r than the N a t i v e Brotherhood. And they were k i c k e d o u t again from t h e r e i n about one o r two y e a r s because they were communists. And our o r g a n i z a t i o n b u i l t up. We had a l o t o f a s s o c i a t e members from there on. Then, t h i s went on. I was t r y i n g t o get them t o change t h e i r c o n s t i t u t i o n r e a d , you know. They wouldn't do i t . They s a i d they were s c a r e d o f the government. F o r what, I don't know. I can't f i g u r e i t out. I was t r y i n g t o t e l l them there was n o t h i n g t o be s c a r e d o f . But no, they wouldn't l i s t e n t o me. Anyway I s t a y e d up and worked my head o f f s t r i k e a f t e r s t r i k e . And a l o t o f times I'd never get home t i l l two o r three o'clock i n t h e morning from the meetings i n town. In 1961 o r 62 we had a long s t r i k e . That's on t h e F r a s e r , you know, I q u i t going up North by now. We l o s t q u i t e a few members t h a t time. Some o f our people s t a r t e d s e l l i n g f i s h on the s l y . They were b r e a k i n g the r u l e s o f the s t r i k e . They were t o be f i n e d and they d i d n ' t want t o pay the f i n e ; they q u i t the o r g a n i z a t i o n . There's n o t h i n g much d i f f e r e n t from there on. J u s t strikes. I t went p r e t t y smooth. Oh, I f o r g o t t o mention i n the e a r l y '40's we got w e l f a r e f o r our fishermen j o i n t l y w i t h the Union. T h i s had money b u i l t up, you know. The companies were p a y i n g s o much a case i n t o t h e fund. That's how t h a t w e l f a r e was b u i l t up. There was t h r e e d i f f e r e n t p a r t i e s : V e s s e l Owners, N a t i v e Brotherhood, and the Union n e g o t i a t e d j o i n t l y t o get t h i s fund s t a r t e d . I t took us about t h r e e y e a r s b e f o r e the companies f i n a l l y agreed t o i t . Then i t s t a r t e d t o b u i l d up. L a s t I've known o f t h a t fund i t was about a m i l l i o n and a h a l f . T h i s was about two y e a r s ago. The Union got c o n t r o l o f i t ; they i n v e s t e d t h a t money. Now a l l fishermen, w i t h any one o f the t h r e e o r g a n i z a t i o n s get s i c k b e n e f i t o r funeral benefit. I t h i n k t h e widow would get $3,700 - 3,800 now. H o s p i t a l i z a t i o n , I t h i n k you get $7.50 a day; something l i k e a p r e s e n t , I guess. They allow you t h a t much whether i t ' s i n season o r i n w i n t e r . I used i t l a s t s p r i n g when I was i n h o s p i t a l . I got $87 — t h a t ' s the f i r s t time I ever b e n e f i t e d w i t h t h a t . They gave me $7 a day.  50 I t h i n k i t ' s a good t h i n g ; you know a l o t o f people don't g i v e us c r e d i t f o r t h a t . But we worked hard t o g e t i t . There was meeting a f t e r meeting. The companies d i d n ' t want to have n o t h i n g t o do w i t h i t f o r a w h i l e . I f they g i v e i n to t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n , i t ' s l i k e a chopping b l o c k f o r us, you know. We can p r a c t i c a l l y get whatever we demand from t h e r e on and they d i d n ' t want t h a t , you know. They kept opposing i t a l l the time. I t ' s b u i l d i n g up r i g h t along. I don't know how t h e y ' r e going t o make out p r e t t y soon. They've got t o s t a r t u s i n g t h a t money p r e t t y soon otherwise the companies are going t o b a l k . They won't pay i n t o the fund when the time comes. I f we don't use t h a t money, i t doesn't do no good t h e r e . You got t o s t a r t g i v i n g the members more money I t h i n k . I mean g i v e them b e t t e r b e n e f i t . That accumulates from year t o year, you know, and what good i s i t going t o do you i f you got two o r t h r e e m i l l i o n d o l l a r s t h e r e and you can't use i t . I f you don't use i t I mean, I t h i n k they wouldn't have no problem w i t h membership i f they went t o work and i n c r e a s e d the v a l u e o f b e n e f i t . That's what I was a f t e r a l l the time I was t h e r e , you know, i n c r e a s e the benefits. I don't know r e a l l y what the b e n e f i t i s now but when I was t h e r e , when I q u i t . I was a member o f the Board o f T r u s t e e s from 1952 u n t i l a couple o f y e a r s ago. I was the o l d e s t member o f the board. We were supposed t o have two o r t h r e e t h e r e but we c o u l d n ' t g e t nobody t o go i n , t o take i n t e r e s t i n the w e l f a r e . Question:  Were you e l e c t e d t o t h e board?  Yeah, I r e p r e s e n t e d t h e N a t i v e Brotherhood. Vessel owners had two members, two (from the) Board o f T r u s t e e s , Brotherhood had two o r t h r e e . The Union e l e c t t h e i r s every c o n v e n t i o n . I was t h e r e , nobody e l s e would take my p l a c e , so I was there from '52 u n t i l '72. W e l l , we got p a i d f o r our time, time l o s t and one t h i n g and another. When we c a l l e d f o r a meeting, they take i t o f f t h e i r fund they got t h e r e , you know. I don't know where the h e l l from, i t wasn't enough though. zation.  I was i n t e r e s t e d i n t r y i n g t o b u i l d up the o r g a n i -  Q u e s t i o n : Do you remember any o f t h e people who worked w i t h you i n the N a t i v e Brotherhood? When I f i r s t j o i n e d there Ed Nahanee was our b u s i n e s s manager. Andy P a u l l was p r e s i d e n t and t r e a s u r e r , I t h i n k , and Dan Asu. That's about '52, '53, you know. Something went wrong t h e r e . That's t h e reason why they went broke. L a t e r on, W i l l i a m Scow was e l e c t e d p r e s i d e n t , and Nahanee stayed w i t h him as b u s i n e s s manager. I agreed w i t h him, W i l l i a m , he d i d n ' t want me t o q u i t . He c o u l d n ' t get nobody e l s e t o g i v e him a hand. But s i n c e then a l o t o f people have  51  moved down from N o r t h . You got a l l Northern group working down here again. Cap Mudge, and t h e r e ' s some A l e r t Bay people l i v i n g i n town and t h e y ' r e members o f the E x e c u t i v e Board, I guess. There's a l o t o f people here they wanted t o take an i n t e r e s t i n i t . They wanted L y l e (Sparrow) and Eddy (Sparrow, J r . ) t o go i n t o i t . They wanted t o t r a i n Eddy t o be an e x e c u t i v e b u t he won't go. He s t a r t e d and q u i t . Then l a t e r on when W i l l i a m r e t i r e d — w e l l , he d i d n ' t r e t i r e , he was outvoted by Bob C l i f t o n , I t h i n k . He went on f o r years and I c a n ' t r e c a l l e x a c t l y what y e a r , you know. But they were g e t t i n g on t o the e a r l y '60's then. Then , was e l e c t e d t o b u s i n e s s manager and t r e a s u r e r , s e c r e t a r y — t h r e e j o b s . That's when we went t o p i e c e s . He had f u l l c o n t r o l o f e v e r y t h i n g , you know. Nobody ever knows what happened t o the money t h a t was t h e r e . We c o u l d n ' t d i g up n o t h i n g . And t h e r e was a s t r i k e on. I can't r e c a l l what y e a r . 1962 o r '63. I was busy over t h e r e l o o k i n g a f t e r food f i s h i n g i n S t e v e s t o n . Every time I c a l l e d t h e i r o f f i c e , you know, I c o u l d n ' t get no answer. I c o u l d n ' t leave because I was working. F i n a l l y Homer (Stevens) g o t h o l d o f me one evening. He t o l d me t o go i n t h e next day, f i n d o u t what t h e h e l l was going on because nobody was i n t h e o f f i c e . So I went. I went d i r e c t l y t o t h e meeting then about 11:00 I excused myself. I went up t o the o f f i c e ; i t was l o c k e d , I c o u l d n ' t g e t i n . So I decided t o go look f o r him, young I went down a couple of b l o c k s , who d i d I see. I gave him h e l l , I don't t h i n k i t sunk, b u t anyway he rushed o f f t o the o f f i c e . He was two months r e n t behind f o r the o f f i c e ; no l i g h t s , no phone. I p a i d f o r i t . We canned him s h o r t l y a f t e r t h a t and Nahanee came back. We b u i l t up t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n from s c r a t c h a g a i n . We formed a l o c a l i n Ladner w i t h the W i l s o n s , and a few whites j o i n e d . They had about t h i r t y - t w o members o r s o over t h e r e . I t went on p r e t t y good f o r f o u r or f i v e y e a r s , I guess, i n Ladner. Again, somebody was squandering our money. You can't prove who was doing i t . They wouldn't l e t us look i n t o the books. Although we c o u l d have. Seeing as we were the s e n i o r members we demand anything we wanted. We were e x e c u t i v e members you know. But we d i d n ' t want t o get anybody i n t r o u b l e so we dropped i t . They d i d n ' t l i k e i t , I guess, They q u i t when they d i d n ' t know what was going on. They a l l j o i n e d the Union over t h e r e from t h a t time on. We o n l y got a few members l e f t over t h e r e . That's the o l d members you know. I guess t h e r e ' s o n l y f o u r l e f t from the o l d members — Johnny W i l s o n and Wally (Wilson). Roy  52 (Wilson) I t h i n k he q u i t , a member o f the Union now. My own group, you know — Ronny, L y l e , my own f a m i l y , and a few from here stayed w i t h us. The reason they got weak here i s the I n d i a n s got weeded out o f the f i s h i n g i n d u s t r y . They weren't p r o d u c i n g . The Japanese came back and they took o v e r . I t ' s b u i l d i n g r i g h t up a g a i n , so I hear. I haven't been i n the o f f i c e t o check f o r a l o n g time — about a y e a r , I guess. They b u i l t r i g h t up because t h e r e ' s a l o t o f Northern members l i v i n g r i g h t here i n town and S t e v e s t o n , a l l over t h e r e . They got a local. You've got t o have twenty-two members t o form a local. They've got a l o c a l i n Vancouver and they want t o form one i n Steveston now. I guess they've got q u i t e a few members down t h e r e . I never heard no more. They wanted me t o go t o a meeting a couple o f weeks ago. But no n o t i c e , they wanted me t o go i n e x a c t l y an hour or two from when the meeting s t a r t e d you know. I d i d n ' t want t o go so I d i d n ' t a t t e n d . I t h i n k young Ronny went i n to t h e meeting. He wasn't q u i t e s a t i s f i e d w i t h what happened. They wanted n o n - h e r r i n g fishermen t o v o t e , which i s n ' t r i g h t . I t should be o n l y h e r r i n g fishermen c a l l e d (to vote f o r h e r r i n g f i s h i n g L . S . ) . Yet they wanted a g e n e r a l meeting. They vote t o check the o f f e r , I guess i t was. That's how i t i s r i g h t up t o now, they ( h e r r i n g fishermen L.S.) a r e s t i l l on strike. That's about a l l I can tell°you about i t now. Q u e s t i o n : You've been i n v o l v e d w i t h the N a t i v e Brotherhood p r e t t y w e l l s i n c e i t s beginning'around here? No, they s t a r t e d i n the e a r l y '30's, I guess, p r o bably e a r l i e r . I got i n t o i t about 1950, '53. Q u e s t i o n: And you've maintained a c o n t a c t a l l the way through from t h e r e ? Yes, I stayed r i g h t from t h a t time on. I d i d a l o t of work f o r them. One t h i n g I don't l i k e about them. They make you an honorary member, then you s t i l l g o t t a pay your fees. I haven't been able t o get i n touch w i t h them guys you know. Based on the c o n s t i t u t i o n o f t h e unions, honorary members, I t h i n k i t ' s a $5 f e e f o r honorary members, i n o r d e r to b e n e f i t from t h a t w e l f a r e . We're o n l y supposed t o be p a y i n g $3.50 j u s t f o r t h a t same purpose. That's t o get b e n e f i t from t h a t w e l f a r e . Now they've r a i s e d i t t o $5, and you've a l s o got t o take out the N a t i v e V o i c e . I t ' s $10 a year f o r t h e N a t i v e V o i c e . W e l l , I don't b e l i e v e i n t h a t . An honorary member should g e t the t h i n g f o r f r e e . He shouldn't have t o be p a y i n g , because he's r e t i r e d , he's got no income anymore, you know. I c a n ' t see me o r a l l t h e  53 r e t i r e d members paying p r a c t i c a l l y your bloody membership fee and $10 d i c t a t i n g t o you t h a t way,; .•  $15. You g o t t a p a y $5 f o r f o r the paper. They're  Q u e s t i o n : Were you on the t r u s t e e committee most o f the time you were w i t h the N a t i v e Brotherhood? Yes, r i g h t from the time I j o i n e d the N a t i v e o r g a n i z a t i o n / N a t i v e Brotherhood o r g a n i z a t i o n . In the f a l l , when a l l f l e e t s come i n we have a meeting. Sometimes i n November. Then, oh about a couple of weeks b e f o r e Christmas j u s t so we c o u l d help a l l those t h a t are i n need, or t h a t l o s t someone i n the f a m i l y . We g o t t a get them a l l straightened* out b e f o r e Christmas. Then we meet again i n January, once or twice i n t h a t month. In February we meet about three times when they're p r e p a r i n g r e p o r t s f o r conventions you know. You g o t t a r e p o r t t o conventions, the Union and the o t h e r o r g a n i z a t i o n s how much money you've got l e f t and how much you've spent, and so on, you know. That's a l l down on the book. I was s i g n i n g cheques, I was a t r u s t e e f o r about ten years I guess. There was f o u r or f i v e of us doing t h a t r i g h t a l o n g . J u s t the S e c r e t a r y of the o r g a n i z a t i o n he's i n , and they s e l e c t from the board t o s i g n cheques. There's got t o be two c o - s i g n e r s a l l the time or the cheques are no good. Question:  Where d i i you have your v a r i o u s conventions?  Oh, sometimes i n Cape Mudge, we had a couple i n Vancouver, one convention i n V i c t o r i a , about t h r e e or f o u r i n P r i n c e Rupert i n my time and, uh, two or t h r e e i n P r i n c e George. Then I can't r e c a l l the r e s e r v e a c r o s s M i l l b a n k Sound — we had one convention t h e r e . Kind of an i s o l a t e d p l a c e , we had a hard time g e t t i n g i n t h e r e . We had t o go by boat from P o r t Hardy. Question: Did the Northern and Southern p a r t s o f the N a t i v e Brotherhood get t o g e t h e r f i n a l l y ? Yes, do you mean amalgamated o r work together? You had t o work t o g e t h e r because yoii^re a member of the same group, you know. I r e p r e s e n t e d the southern group most of the time from the time I j o i n e d . Whenever t h e r e ' s b u s i n e s s to be taken care o f down here. Our o f f i c e i s downtown — i t was easy f o r me t o go. Nahanee was there or I'd get i n touch w i t h him by phone. Then you'd arrange a meeting maybe a week or two a f t e r t h a t , and we'd take up the g r i e v a n c e s o f the members, whatever i t i s . Question: Does the N a t i v e Brotherhood food f i s h i n g ?  have c o n t r o l over  Dh yes, each o r g a n i z a t i o n has t h e i r own.  Union  54  (UPAWU) t r i e d t o c o n t r o l i t , b u t i n 1953 I s a i d we don't want t o be under anybody. We're going t o do our own food f i s h i n g . So we s t a r t e d . I went out j u s t t o t e s t them, you know, see what t h e y ' r e going t o do. They threatened t o saddle my n e t you know — t h a t ' s put weight on each end. I s a i d you guys do t h a t — t h i s was i n a meeting — you're a s k i n g f o r t r o u b l e . You're i n t e r f e r i n g with p r i v a t e p r o p e r t y , you can't do t h a t I says t o them. You know they s a i d they c o u l d , they w i l l . That's the members; t h i s i s a g e n e r a l meeting w i t h t h e t h r e e o r g a n i z a t i o n s . I t o l d I'm going out tomorrow. You guys s i n k t h a t and I ' l l g i v e you t r o u b l e . So I went o u t t h e next day. They came around me. I s a y s , you guys keep away from t h e r e . I had two, t h r e e guys w i t h me. You touch t h a t n e t I ' l l b l a s t you, I s a i d . I was j u s t k i d d i n g them you know. I d i d n ' t have my gun, I was j u s t f o o l i n g them. They were c i r c l i n g around us. The next day they c a l l e d us and they s t i l l wanted t o c o n t r o l . I s a i d no, we're going t o do our own food f i s h i n g . We s o l d f i s h j u s t t o h e l p the s t r i k e r s you know. We made q u i t e a few d o l l a r s t h a t way. I t a l l went t o the members. I t was q u i t e a long s t r i k e the f i r s t one we had. We g i v e them money t o buy grub you know, t h a t ' s the members, out o f the s a l e o f the salmon. We gave Union members salmon too when they came around; we weren't s t i n g y l i k e them. F i n a l l y we agreed t o work t o g e t h e r on the food f i s h i n g . I was one o f the guys l o o k i n g a f t e r the s t r i k e i n '63. the reason why I c o u l d n ' t get i n t o the o f f i c e when was t h e r e , you know. You had t o be there a l l the time because t h e r e were people buying salmon. They were s e l l i n g i t f o r r e l i e f purposes. We had t o keep t r a c k o f money coming i n , t h i n g s l i k e t h a t , the members g e t k i n d o f goofy, you know. You've got t o be there because they were d r i n k i n g and e v e r y t h i n g e l s e . They d i d n ' t know what the h e l l was going on t h e r e , g i v i n g f i s h away. I don't know, some fishermen got p a i d t w i c e . They were a l l o w i n g so much a t o n , some guys got p a i d t w i c e . You had t o be t h e r e t o look a f t e r them, t h a t ' s the reason why I c o u l d n ' t leave. That's  Question; Was there a r e s t r i c t i o n on the amount o f f i s h each fisherman c o u l d b r i n g i n ? Yes, I t h i n k we were allowed two hundred f o r each fisherman. You only got about $70, $80 out o f t h a t , you know, f o r your time. That's supposed t o be v o l u n t e e r work, but i t ' s f o r r e p a i r i n g your gear and expenses. That's the reason why they give them so much. They were w i l l i n g t o do it. L a t e r on they got p a i d by the p i e c e . Some guys made $200 a day. They c o u l d a l l go out one day, then somebody e l s e go out. They made b i g money. The Union, they d i v i d e d up what money was over I guess what you c a l l r e l i e f . They gave money t o buy  after  55 g r o c e r i e s y o u know. We d i v i d e d i t u p a m o n g s t t h e t h r e e o r g a n i z a t i o n s a f t e r t h e s t r i k e was o v e r . I t was s m a l l b e n e f i t f o r the time you l o s t . A fishermen's s t r i k e , I c a n ' t s e e them h o l d i n g o u t t o o l o n g y o u know. Other i n d u s t r i e s w i l l go i n t o s t r i k e b u t t h e y d o n ' t — they lose t h e i r wage, y e s , b u t t h e y c a n a l w a y s go b a c k t o w o r k . But when f i s h e r m e n go o n s t r i k e , y o u p r a c t i c a l l y l o s e a s e a s o n . You c a n ' t s t o p t h e f i s h f r o m g o i n g up r i v e r . I d o n ' t b e l i e v e i n l o n g s t r i k e s m y s e l f , b u t maybe i t d o n e t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n some g o o d . The c o m p a n i e s , f o r a w h i l e t h e y p r a c t i c a l l y a g r e e d t o a n y t h i n g y o u ' d demand. But I t h i n k w e ' v e o v e r d o n e o u r t h i n g s m y s e l f r i g h t now y o u k n o w , o v e r p r i c e d our salmon. W h e t h e r we d i d o r n o t . B u t t h e b l o o d y g e a r i s so h i g h t o o , y o u know, k i n d o f e v e n t h i n g s out again. I t h i n k w h e r e t h e money i s made i s s e n i o r c o m p a n i e s . T h e y c o n t r o l i t a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e y m u s t make money, much more money t h a n t h e y l e t o n y o u know. They were b l a m i n g w h o l e s a l e r s , b u t I d o n ' t s e e no w h o l e s a l e , no m i d d l e guys handling fish. Wholesale, they don't handle that. I t comes d i r e c t from t h e cannery t o t h e warehouses. From t h e r e i t goes i n t o t h e s t o r e s . We c h e c k e d u p o n t h a t y o u k n o w , R i d l e y a n d I c h e c k e d u p I d o n ' t k n o w how m a n y t i m e s . Then A l e c Gordon. Three o r f o u r o f us t r a v e l l e d around t o g e t h e r . E s p e c i a l l y w h e n a s t r i k e i s o n we t r a v e l a r o u n d , g o o u t a n d w a t c h t o s e e w h a t t h e h e l l i s g o i n g o n . We n e e d e d t o o m u c h money f o r i t t h e n . When t h e y q u e s t i o n t h e p r i c e o f s a l m o n i n t h e s t o r e , who g e t s t h e m o n e y , w h o ' s t h e m i d d l e g u y , they can't answer t h a t . I t goes d i r e c t from t h e cannery t o t h e s t o r e y o u know. They're the wholesaler, they're the one t h a t makes t h e money, b u t t h e y d e n y i t a l l t h e t i m e . Same w a y w i t h f i s h t h e y e x p o r t , r a w f i s h . Quite a b i t o f salmon goes t o t h e S t a t e s . I t goes d i r e c t t o them guys u n l e s s t h e r e ' s w h o l e s a l i n g a c r o s s t h e l i n e . We d o n ' t k n o w , t h a t s o m e t h i n g we d i d n ' t f i n d o u t . T o n s a n d t o n s , e s p e c i a l l y f r o m S e p t e m b e r on y o u know. They don't s e l l raw sockeye, whole sockeye t h e y want t o c a l l i t , u n t i l t h e season i s over. W e l l , t h e season e x p i r e s around t h e f i f t e e n t h , t w e n t i e t h o f September. Then t h e y ' r e a l l o w e d t o s e l l sockeye i f they wanted t o . But t h e sockeye a r e k i n d o f o l d t h e n , t h e c a n n e r y don't want i t anymore t h e n . Most o f t h e chums go a c r o s s t h e r e . A f e w w i l l b e s a l t e d f o r t h e J a p a n e s e a n d C h i n e s e y o u know, d r y s a l t . But the majority o f t h e ehums go a c r o s s ( t o S t a t e s ) . That's what they c a l l dog salmon. T h e y h a v e a d i f f e r e n t name y o u k n o w . Question; D i d t h e f i s h i n g companies continue t o o b j e c t about fishermen being i n t h e Brotherhood? No, t h e y  don't  object.  They want t o see t h e N a t i v e  56 B r o t h e r h o o d i m p r o v e , o r g e t s t r o n g e r , g e t more membership. T h e r e a s o n w h y we c o u l d o n l y — n o w we c a n s i g n b r e e d s , n o n - s t a t u s i fy o u want t o c a l l them t h a t . As long as a member h a s , o h t h r e e - q u a r t e r I n d i a n I g u e s s y o u ' d p u t i t , y o u c a n s i g n h i m . I t ' s i n t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n now. Oh, e v e n o n e - e i g h t h w i t h I n d i a n b l o o d i n y o u , y o u s t i l l c o u l d be a m e m b e r o f t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d now. I d o n ' t know. I haven't seen t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n . M a y b e t h e y ' r e l y i n g t o me. I've g o t t o see i tt o b e l i e v e i t . T h a t ' s w h a t t h e y t o l d me j u s t b e f o r e I q u i t o r g a n i z i n g y o u know. W e l l , t h e y ( N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d ) s o l v e d many I n d i a n problems. They weren't o n l y l o o k i n g a f t e r t h e f i s h e r m e n . They had o t h e r work t o do b e s i d e s n e g o t i a t i n g f o r t h e i r members a s f i s h e r m e n . Time and a g a i n t h e y ' v e t a k e n up e s p e c i a l l y f a m i l y a l l o w a n c e s and one t h i n g and a n o t h e r . I t was t h r o u g h t h e N a t i v e B r o t h e r h o o d t h a t s t a t u s I n d i a n s g o t t h a t y o u k n o w . We h a d s e n i o r m e m b e r s g o i n g l i k e P e t e r K e l l y and Guy W i l l i a m s , Bob C l i f t o n a n d a f e w o t h e r s . They went to Ottawa time and a g a i n , j u s t t o t r y t o g e t t h e b e n e f i t s for our people. I t ' s t h r o u g h t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n t h a t we g o t t h a t , f a m i l y a l l o w a n c e , o l d age p e n s i o n , w e l f a r e and so o n , you know. N o t h i n g t h r o u g h a n y o t h e r o r g a n i z a t i o n . We fought f o r i ttime and again. We e v e n s e n t o u r s e n i o r m e m b e r s t o Ottawa t o n e g o t i a t e . I t t o o k us a b o u t t e n y e a r s o r so t o g e t t h i s y o u know. T o s t a r t w i t h we g o t t h e f a m i l y a l l o w a n c e t o o u r s t a t u s I n d i a n s , r e g a r d l e s s o f w h e t h e r t h e y ' r e members ( o f B r o t h e r h o o d —L.S.) o r n o t . A l l Indians got i ti n B r i t i s h Columbia. We worked on t h e pension. I t t o o k u s l o n g e r t o g e t . We g o t w e l f a r e b e f o r e we g o t o l d a g e p e n s i o n f o r o u r p e o p l e . I think i t w a s a b o u t t w e l v e y e a r s a g o , s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t w h e n we g o t i t f o r our people. T h e y s a i d we w e r e n o n - s t a t u t o r y , w h i c h i s t r u e , b u t I t^ilnk we're e n t i t l e d t o i t . Well, I wouldn't say we w e r e n o n - s t a t u t o r y b e c a u s e we p a i d i n c o m e t a x j u s t l i k e e v e r y b o d y e l s e w h e n we w e r e c o m p e t i n g o u t s i d e t h e r e s e r v e . T h e r e f o r e we s h o u l d b e e n t i t l e d t o i t y o u k n o w . I think the m a j o r i t y o f t h e I n d i a n fishermen p a i d income t a x e s . I f they w o r k e d o u t s i d e i n l o g g i n g c a m p s , y o u w e r e t a x a b l e same a s everybody e l s e . Any work y o u went t o . You're p a y i n g taxes on y o u r c l o t h i n g , h i d d e n t a x e s . Cigarettes — I t h i n k I made t h e g o v e r n m e n t a l o t o f money when I was s m o k i n g b e c a u s e I was a c h a i n smoker. People gained q u i t e a b i t . For a fact there, a l l those things I mentioned. I t was t h r o u g h t h e Native Brotherhood they got i t . I t was e f f o r t s o f t h e N a t i v e Brotherhood that brought t h i s about. Better education. Our o r g a n i z a t i o n was t h e one t h a t was a b l e t o g e t o u r c h i l d r e n i n t o p u b l i c s c h o o l s . Before t h a t , as u s u a l , as non-taxpayers they d i d n ' t want t o have n o t h i n g t o do w i t h o u r c h i l d r e n i n p u b l i c s c h o o l s . We k e p t working on i t . F i n a l l y they t r i e d i t . I t h i n k i t was much b e t t e r f o r o u r p e o p l e anyway, i n s t e a d o f h a v i n g r e s i d e n t i a l schools. R e s i d e n t i a l school i s a l l r i g h t f o r orphan c h i l d r e n ,  57  one t h i n g and another, you know. But c h i l d r e n w i t h p a r e n t s , I t h i n k they were much f u r t h e r ahead by going t o p u b l i c s c h o o l s . R e s i d e n t i a l s , you've got t o work. You o n l y have a few hours s c h o o l each day and the r e s t o f the day you're working f o r the s c h o o l whether i t was C a t h o l i c o r P r o t e s t a n t . You had t o work because t h e i r grants were so s m a l l a t t h a t time. Not too l o n g ago they i n c r e a s e d i t from $92 t o $132. That's p e r c a p i t a grant f o r each c h i l d i n s c h o o l . I t ' s s m a l l you know. We had t o work t o h e l p a l o n g . I mean the c h i l d r e n had t o work. I d i d i t i n my time a t s c h o o l . In s p r i n g months a f t e r I was about twelve, t h i r t e e n years o l d I h a r d l y go t o s c h o o l . I worked o u t on the farm a l l t h e time plowing, d i s c i n g , harrowing. I n the evenings, I used t o go up i n the classroom and study, prepare myself f o r examinations a t t h e end o f t h e y e a r . Q u e s t i o n:  Most o f the day time was spent working on the farm?  I d i d , y e s . Q u i t e a few o f us d i d t h a t you know. I d i d a l l t h e p l o u g h i n g , p r a c t i c a l l y , w h i l e I was n o t going t o s c h o o l . Handy w i t h a team, you know. Question:  How many y e a r s d i d you spend up a t Coqualeetza?  1909 when I went, came out i n 1916. S i x years I was t h e r e I guess, s i x and o n e - h a l f y e a r s . I t would have been seven. I went t o s c h o o l i n September, October a f t e r hop picking. I had t o work. Yes, 1916 when I came o u t . Q u e s t i o n: school?  Who went t o s c h o o l w i t h you, worked w i t h you a t  I can't r e c a l l t h e i r names now, i t ' s so long s i n c e I left. There was guys from Masset, Queen C h a r l o t t e I s l a n d s , Skeena R i v e r , Cowichan, West Coast. In my time j u s t my s i s t e r and I were from here I guess. There was a few went up t h e r e from here b e f o r e my time. L o c a l people from t h e r e , I'm speaking o f Coqualeetza you know, t h a t ' s up S a r d i s , C h i l l i w a c k — t h e r e was q u i t e a few l o c a l people from up t h e r e . There was people, c h i l d r e n , from a l l over. There was one hundred and t h i r t y o r so t h e r e then when I was going. They i n c r e a s e d i t t o over two hundred c h i l d r e n a f t e r I l e f t . They extended the b u i l d i n g . I got no complaint. A t l e a s t I l e a r n e d how t o work you know. I d i d n ' t get much e d u c a t i o n but I know how t o work. I reached e i g h t h grade i n the s h o r t time I was t h e r e . I shouldn't have q u i t , I guess. I thought I was smart, you know! I came out o f s c h o o l on account o f my grandmother. She was g e t t i n g k i n d o f weak. P r e t t y near e v e r y t h i n g I made a f t e r I was working out I gave t o her t o keep up the house. Although, I h a r d l y l i v e d a t home. I was going from j o b t o job.  58 I f o r g o t t o t e l l you I worked i n sawmills t o o , you know — Vancouver, Sguamish. Anywhere I c o u l d get a j o b i n a mill when I c a n ' t get i n a camp. Mostly n i g h t s h i f t . I used t o p l a y l a c r o s s e , and I c a n ' t take day work. I was working a t n i g h t . S t a r t 8:00 a f t e r a hard game o r something. Q u i t 7:00 i n the morning. I used t o walk up t o K e r r i s d a l e and take the tram. There was no s t r e e t c a r s r u n n i n g then, you know, when I worked i n town. There's no m i l l s so I had t o work a t Red P o r t e r ' s r i g h t i n F a l s e Creek. I worked q u i t e a w h i l e i n Squamish l o a d i n g . A l l I d i d was l o a d i n g c a r s , r o l l i n g timbers on. I was t h e r e about f o u r o r f i v e months working the same j o b . You don't g e t n o t h i n g payday — 25* o r 30* an hour. But, you've got t o do i t t o l i v e , I guess.  59 No c h a n g e i n m e t h o d w a s restrict  incorporated here  q u e s t i o n i n g t o a minimum.  himself  forthis  Grandfather  s e s s i o n , a n d was a b l e Information  recorded  because o f i t s s i g n i f i c a n c e  Again,  after  on t h e N a t i v e  Grandfather  unrelated  t o h i s w o r k , b u t he was t e l l i n g learn f o r myself  A great father's and  values  t o him. he w e n t  on  given  facts  and f o r h i s l i f e  was  which  he  history.  and c h a r a c t e r —  h i s industriousness, leadership  i n general  recording primarily  are very  of Native  evident.  Grand-  i n the fishermen  H i s awareness o f  What s t a r t e d  o u t as a  and s a t i s f a c t i o n  p r o d u c e d r e v e a l i n g comments i n d i c a t i n g the Native  about  and i n t e r e s t  f o r the welfare  forhis interest  problems which have b e s e t  chapter  involvement  economic c o n d i t i o n s i s a l s o e v i d e n t .  loss  was  i n this  peoples  membership,  prepared  deal i s revealed  i n d u s t r y , and concern  Native  me  to  o n h i s own  information being  administrative capability,  fishing and  k n e w some  than  Brotherhood  the r e c o r d i n g had stopped,  talking.  knew I s h o u l d  had  t o proceed  most o f t h e time. primarily  other  actually  some o f t h e r e c u r r i n g  Brotherhood  o f contact between e x e c u t i v e  —  maintaining  a n d members,  p r o v i d i n g b e n e f i t s and s e r v i c e s t o members, n e g o t i a t i o n s and strike  work.  fishing  Problems encountered  i n d u s t r y have  competition,  a l s o been brought  forth  Indians —  i n the  increased  equipment c o s t s , t e c h n o l o g i c a l advances.  A delay  until  Method, procedures, required  by N a t i v e  the next  choice  re-evaluation.  i n t e r v i e w was  of informants  During  this  time  novi  7  necessary.  and goals the three  o f t h e study tapes  were  60 transcribed  verbatim  informant.  Cursory  m a t e r i a l brought  and t y p e d content  f o r each rich  attained.  t h e number o f i n f o r m a n t s  detailed  i n f o r m a t i o n was  restrict  the research t o collecting  E d S p a r r o w was As t h e s e  features and  finalized  transcripts  became a p p a r e n t .  easily  specific  work h i s t o r y  to t h e i r attempt such  were n o t b e i n g history was  an i n t e g r a l  life  history  approach  which  required  Here the d e c i s i o n  t h e work h i s t o r i e s  approved.  were  reviewed  grandparents  of their  to  o f Rose  s e v e r a l common  past.  related  very  In addition  were v o l u n t a r i l y  ethnographic  details.  well t o the  and  These  f o r b u t were n e v e r t h e l e s s p e r t i n e n t  and r e l e v a n t t o t h e f o r t h c o m i n g  made t o c u r t a i l  of  and t h e scope o f t h e d a t a i f  r e f e r e n c e s , they  asked  sets  most u n a t t a i n a b l e  A workable  and  relating  third  to the surface.  an i n depth  collected.  Both  to a recollection  perhaps unconsciously details  t o be  the  because of the ease w i t h  limiting  and  time  from  three  possibilities  collecting  informants  c o u l d be  of these  but at this  t o continue  of the l i s t e d  collections  analysis  some i n t e r e s t i n g  The most o b v i o u s , a l t e r n a t i v e was  along w i t h notes  this  analysis.  i n f o r m a t i o n s i n c e i t seemed  part of the r e c a l l p a t t e r n .  No  3.4  Tapes 25, 26  Ed Sparrow March 5,  1975  I n t e r v i e w i n g with Ed was  continued,  p r i m a r i l y because of  h i s a v a i l a b i l i t y and i n t e r e s t perhaps s t i m u l a t e d by concern over incompleteness of h i s e a r l i e r tapes. list  of p o s s i b l e questions  i n d u s t r y was  drawn up.  centered  Before  the i n t e r v i e w a  around f i s h i n g and the  I hoped t h a t i n answering these,  fishing  addi-  t i o n a l r e c o l l e c t i o n s would be s t i m u l a t e d p r o v i d i n g enough e x p l i c i t d e t a i l t o b u i l d on sequences of work and Grandfather wanted t o . r e c o r d e r was  activity.  spoke when he p l e a s e d and  f o r as long as  he  There were pauses d u r i n g the i n t e r v i e w when the turned o f f i n order t h a t he had  r e c o l l e c t i o n s before  continuing.  We  time t o order h i s  d i g r e s s e d from the s u b j e c t  matter many times throughout the i n t e r v i e w s , e s p e c i a l l y i f Grandfather  seemed t o be t i r i n g or d i s t r a c t e d .  Copies of the tape t r a n s c r i p t s were compiled t o my was  and  given  grandparents as the t r a n s c r i p t s became a v a i l a b l e .  to encourage them t o read the m a t e r i a l f o r accuracy  content,  This and  t o keep them f a m i l i a r w i t h the m a t e r i a l s a l r e a d y  w h i l e u r g i n g them t o d i s c l o s e a d d i t i o n a l i n f o r m a t i o n .  covered  62  Tape 25 Recorded:  March 5, 1975 Mr.  Ed Sparrow, S r .  Musqueam WORK HISTORY — Question:  FISHING LOCATIONS AND COMPANIES  Who d i d you f i s h f o r , where d i d you f i s h ?  T e r r a Nova cannery, t h a t ' s when I f i s h e d w i t h my granduncle, but I d i d n ' t even get a p l a c e . I f i s h e d two - t h r e e years w i t h my  granduncle.  I t h i n k i t was 1916, '17 when we l a s t f i s h e d t h e r e . Things got so bad then I went i n the camps f o r a few years and f o r g o t about f i s h i n g . I went t o f i s h w i t h Mike (Wilson) 1915, '16 I guess f o r one season. I t was bad, I never made no money. I gave i t up and went t o l o g g i n g camps. In 1924 the f i r s t cannery I went t o was Oceanic i n Skeena. 1925 I moved t o C l a x t o n . I f i s h e d t h e r e from 1925 t i l l 1942, I t h i n k , when I q u i t going up t h e r e . Question:  Where d i d you f i s h i n the F r a s e r ?  Sometimes r i g h t out here ( o f f Musqueam). Wherever the o l d f e l l a f e l t l i k e going. Sometimes o u t s i d e the d r o p o f f , sometimes we were f i s h i n g o u t s i d e the lookout. I t used t o be a good p l a c e there you know. Sometimes i t used t o be a t the sturgeon t r a p s ; t h e r e was a k i n d o f a hole i n the sandbanks, w i t h a l i t t l e slough going by. I d i d n ' t even know but the o l d guy knew. He j u s t f e l t around w i t h h i s oar then we'd anchor t i l l the t i d e goes low then we'd throw our n e t o u t . The f i s h get caught i n there you know. I t ' s shallow a l l around except t h a t 'lake' when the t i d e goes o u t . Sometimes we'd go t o Steveston, s a i l over t h e r e . Wait f o r the t i d e and chuck out. When we'd come back, maybe make a d r i f t o r two out i n the G u l f on evening s e t . We never worked l i k e you do now days you know. There was so much f i s h you d i d n ' t have t o work as hard as you do now. L a t e r on I was f i s h i n g w i t h Tommy C o l e .  He used t o  63 go a l l o v e r t o o , y o u know. He h a d a g a s b o a t . There used t o be good s o c k e y e f i s h i n g o v e r on S p a n i s h Banks. Come a l l t h e w a y f r o m T e r r a N o v a , o u t t h a t way a n d f i s h o v e r t h e r e . We d i d e x a c t l y t h e s a m e t h i n g , f i s h e d a r o u n d o u t h e r e o n t h e f l a t s when t h e t i d e i s r i g h t . Most of the time there's a broken t i d e a t n i g h t . You d o n ' t go o u t t o o l o w . You f i s h t h e r e p r a c t i c a l l y a l l n i g h t y o u know. Question;  D i d you  fish  around  t h e end  of Point  Grey?  Yes. We u s e d t o d r i f t o u t f r o m t h e r i v e r . Anywhere around the f l a t s . Where t h e r e ' s k i n d o f a r i v e r g o i n g o u t f r o m j u s t o u t s i d e w h e r e t h e t r e a t m e n t p l a n t i s . The o l d f e l l a used t o f i s h r i g h t on the drop from where t h e d i r t y water i s out. The n e t s t h e n w e r e t o o c o a r s e , y o u d o n ' t f i s h in clean water then. We d i d n ' t g o d o w n C a n o e P a s s way w i t h s a i l b o a t s , mostly j u s t around the f l a t s here. J u s t w h e n we h e a r t h e r e ' s f i s h s o m e w h e r e e l s e t h e n we g o . Follow the fleet. Question:  Were o t h e r p e o p l e f i s h i n g  a t Canoe  Pass?  A l o t o f p e o p l e go t h e r e . F r o m M u s q u e a m some g o t o C a n o e P a s s , some t o D e a s I s l a n d a b o v e t h e t u n n e l . Quite a few p e o p l e u s e d t o go t h e r e . They used t o s c a t t e r a l l o v e r . Some w o u l d b e i n A c m e C a n n e r y a c r o s s f r o m T e r r a N o v a ; a f e w go t o S t e v e s t o n . I n t h e f a l l when I was u s e d t o go up S q u a m i s h t o f i s h s t a y t h e r e f o r a l m o s t a week. Question: Were y o u f i s h i n g Howe S o u n d a t S q u a m i s h ?  f i s h i n g w i t h Tommy C o l e we dog salmon. S o m e t i m e s we'd  a t t h e mouth o f t h e r i v e r  or i n  T h e r e was a b o u n d a r y t h e r e . You c a n ' t go up t h e r i v e r y o u know. T h e r e ' s a b o u n d a r y a b o u t two m i l e s o u t f r o m the wharf. Y o u c a n ' t g o i n s i d e o f i t . We u s e d t o g o u p there. I d o n ' t k n o w , Tommy l i k e d i t . T h e r e w a s n ' t t o o m u c h m o n e y made b u t I j u s t w e n t a l o n g . Coho and dog salmon i s a b o u t a l l y o u g e t up t h e r e a t t h a t t i m e o f y e a r . That's a b o u t t h e o n l y p l a c e s we w e n t t o y o u k n o w w h e n we f i s h e d around here. Question:  When y o u  fished  w i t h Mike  Wilson?  We f i s h e d a t C a n o e P a s s t h e n i n t h e f a l l . In the f a l l I was w o r k i n g a t S c o t t i s h C a n a d i a n c a n n e r y when t h e y a s k e d me t o g o f i s h w i t h h i m . T h a t ' s a f t e r I g i v e up, started fishing for myself. T h i n g s were so bad. I fished w i t h him f o r o v e r a month I guess. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r how much I made, i t w a s n ' t v e r y much anyway. Up a n d d o w n t h e Canoe P a s s R i v e r , y o u know. M i k e was l i v i n g w i t h h i s  64 p a r e n t s t h e n , w h e r e A n d y i s s t a y i n g now. T h e r e was a l o t o f f i s h t h e r e i n t h e f a l l b u t t h e y were so c h e a p . That t i m e o f t h e y e a r .... b u y w h i t e s p r i n g s f o r a n y m o n e y . A l o t o f guys were t h r o w i n g t h e i r w h i t e s p r i n g s away, a l s o t h e i r humpback. T h i s i s i n t h e f a l l you know, m i d d l e o f October. Question; D i d you f i s h w i t h o t h e r boats boats t r a v e l t o g e t h e r anywhere?  or  alone?  Did  You d o n ' t t r a v e l w i t h anybody. Y o u go m o s t l y i n d i v i d u a l anywhere. You p l a n y o u r f i s h i n g d a y s ahead o f t i m e , where y o u ' r e g o i n g t o go. P r a c t i c a l l y t h e same t h i n g up n o r t h . I t ' s j u s t when y o u ' r e m o v i n g f r o m one fishing ground t o t h e o t h e r you t r a v e l w i t h two, t h r e e o t h e r b o a t s most of the time. But here t h r e e - f o u r days you s t a y w h e r e v e r y o u w a n t t o go t o f i s h . Sometimes q u i t e interesting t o see them. Question; to fish?  D i d you  have s p e c i f i c  areas  you  'claimed*  in  order  T h e r e ' s some a r e a s w h e r e y o u g o t t a w a i t y o u r t u r n you know. B u t n o b o d y was g o i n g t o c l a i m a s p o t a n y w h e r e . A t l e a s t t h e y won't be. I g u e s s when t h e I n d i a n s were f i s h i n g b e f o r e t h e c a n n e r i e s came, you c a n ' t i n t e r f e r e . One p l a c e where you f i s h . Commercial f i s h i n g , anywhere you go, I g u e s s as l o n g as y o u d o n ' t i n t e r f e r e w i t h one another. But i n most p l a c e s you change d r i f t s . People wait f o r t h e i r turn. When t h e i r t u r n c o m e s t h e y d r i f t d o w n s t r e a m ; They s t i l l d o i t now, w a i t f o r t h e i r t u r n . That hasn't changed, i t ' s s t i l l t h a t way.. T a k e a n o t h e r man's d r i f t , w e l l t h e war w i l l s t a r t . Question; Were t h e r e c e r t a i n a r e a s on t h e r i v e r could catch f i s h b e t t e r than i n other areas?  where  you  I t a l l depends. I t ' s a l l a c c o r d i n g t o t h e way the f i s h move. S o m e t i m e s y o u go o u t b e t w e e n s p o t s w h e r e t h e y r a i s e t h e s u r f a c e o f w a t e r o r come o u t o v e r t h e b a r , o r r i g h t a t the mouth o f the r i v e r where you w a i t . You s t i l l have t o w a i t your bloody t u r n a t t h a t time. I t seems y o u c o u l d f i s h anywhere you t h r e w y o u r n e t a f t e r when t h e t i d e is right. T h e r e was s o many f i s h . We u s e d t o a n c h o r . Like w h e n we w e r e a t T e r r a N o v a f i s h i n g w i t h my g r a n d u n c l e you know, u s e d t o a n c h o r b e h i n d a p o i n t . J u s t before the t i d e t u r n e d he'd t h r o w h i s n e t r i g h t b e h i n d t h e p o i n t o f t h e sandbar. The f i s h w o u l d seem t o come a l o n g t h e r e . He'd l o a d up a n d go b a c k a g a i n . Never f i s h e d too long. Half the t i m e we w e r e w a l k i n g a r o u n d t h e c a n n e r y a t t h e c a m p . Question; cannery?  Did  you  have t o take  your  own  fish  into  the  65  Oh, yes then. D e l i v e r i n T e r r a Nova they d i d h ' t have no c o l l e c t o r going around then you know. They had scows a t the wharf. You get a chance, you go r i g h t t o the f r o n t o f the cannery. Conveyor, I guess they c a l l i t , the chute where they p i c k up the f i s h . Shoots r i g h t up i n s i d e the cannery. Them days we d i d n ' t have no c o l l e c t o r s . I seen them throw f i s h onto a scow anchored i n S t e v e s t o n . No c o l l e c t o r going around except a scow would be towed by a tug boat and he anchored t h e r e . A t a l l y man would be aboard. I t ' s the only d i f f e r e n t system I seen t h e r e when I was a k i d . Seems t o me everybody came home a f t e r the t i d e was over then you know. You never s t a y e d out a l l hours o f the day l i k e you do now. Question;  Were you p a i d cash d i r e c t l y f o r your  fish?  No. You get p a i d a f t e r the end of the season u n l e s s you were independent. I d i d n ' t t h i n k i t would pay anybody t o be independent. H a r d l y any cash buyers them days. Question; When you s t a r t e d f i s h i n g around C l a x t o n ( i n the Skeena River) what areas d i d you f i s h ? Were you f i s h i n g j u s t i n the river? A l l over t h e r e . At n i g h t we used t o go out. I f t h e r e was no f i s h i n the r i v e r we'd go o u t s i d e , same as we do here. Go o u t s i d e L a u r i e r l i g h t s I guess i t would be. I t ' s quite a ways down below, about t e n , f i f t e e n m i l e s away from the r i v e r . We went q u i t e r e g u l a r . When t h e r e ' s no f i s h i n the r i v e r you have t o keep moving around. Sometimes we go t o Eddy's Pass — t h a t ' s behind Stephens I s l a n d , when t h e r e ' s no f i s h above. Mostly i n the e a r l y p a r t o f the season when we was doing t h a t you know. But when the f i s h gets i n the r i v e r , w e l l you don't have t o go on no more. That's at l e a s t we d i d n ' t , most o f our F r a s e r R i v e r gang never run a l l over the p l a c e . Of c o u r s e , i t ' s harder work t o be doing t h a t . Once i n a w h i l e I'd run out a f t e r I get t i r e d you know and s l e e p there f o r a w h i l e . When the f i s h i s i n the r i v e r we back up t o the gap they c a l l i t .... Kenny's I s l a n d . A l l the way up then we p i c k up and c r o s s over. Anyway around C l a x t o n we back up t o P o i n t Lambert. I f you're t o o e a r l y you p i c k i t up again f o r h i g h water and chuck i t out a g a i n . We t r a v e l l e d about f i v e - s i x m i l e s an hour up there when we were b a c k i n g up. Same way as when the t i d e i s going out. We'd go q u i t e a long ways up the r i v e r b e f o r e they moved the boundary. We used t o go r i g h t up t o a p l a c e they c a l l e d P o r t E s s i n g t o n . The boundary was about e i g h t - t e n m i l e s above t h a t a t one time. As time went along they kept  m o v i n g i t you know. J u s t b e f o r e t h e l a s t y e a r I w a s u p there7 t h e l a s t c o u p l e o f y e a r s t h e b o u n d a r y was way down b e l o w Port Essington. I t was a p l a c e , P o i n t M o w i c h I g u e s s y o u ' d call i t . Then I'd s i g h t P o i n t Lambert. They were g e t t i n g down p r e t t y l o w y o u know. O n l y a b o u t f i v e - s i x m i l e s away from the mouth o f the r i v e r t h e n . I guess the reason why i s t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g t o o many f i s h e r m e n up t h e r e t h e n . The?! s t a r t e d p u t t i n g r e s t r i c t i o n on. Gas b o a t s a n d w h a t n o t w e r e g e t t i n g around too f a s t . S a i l b o a t ; d a y s , w e l l , when y o u ' r e done d r i f t i n g , you a n c h o r somewhere a t t h e s i d e o f t h e r i v e r . Y o u d o n ' t d r i f t no m o r e b e c a u s e y o u ' r e n e v e r a b l e t o g e t (back). I t ' s q u i t e q u i e t a f t e r you get p a s t P o i n t Lambert and P o i n t M o w i c h y o u know. Take you a l o n g time t o get ashore there. Y o u c a n d r i f t a l o n g way t o o b e f o r e y o u g e t ashore. Question: Were t h e r e more b o a t s as t h e y e a r s went on?  g o i n g up  from Vancouver  areas  For a while. I g u e s s J o K i p p was one o f t h e e a r l y o n e s t h a t w e n t up S k e e n a . We d i d n ' t b o t h e r a b o u t g o i n g up t h e r e y o u know. We k n e w t h e r e was a l o t o f f i s h b u t t h e t h i n g i s they were cheap. A s t i m e w e n t o n t h e r e was q u i t e a few f i s h e r m e n f r o m h e r e s t a r t e d t o move up t h e r e e v e r y summer, j u s t f o r the season. They used m o s t l y r e n t a l b o a t s them days. T h e y u s e d t o g o up o n a s t e a m b o a t a n d r e n t a b o a t u p t h e r e . When t h e s e a s o n w a s f i n i s h e d , w e l l t h e y j u s t t i e t h e b o a t u p and l e a v e i t . I t was d i f i f e r e n t w i t h u s . We h a d o u r own b o a t s . A l o t o f g u v s g o up t h e r e f r o m t h e F r a s e r d u r i n g t h e r e g u l a r (season • : 5. We s t a r t e d g o u p t h e r e i n t h e e a r l y p a r t o f J u n e t h e n y o u know. The s e a s o n u s e d t o o p e n a b o u t t h e t w e n t i e t h of June. We'd g e t up t h e r e f o r t h e o p e n i n g . There was f i s h e r m e n f r o m a l l o v e r . I knew q u i t e a few g u y s f r o m L a n g l e y u s e d t o go up t h e r e . M o s t l y b r e e d s and w h i t e s . Not v e r y m a n y I n d i a n s go u p S k e e n a y o u k n o w . T h e y m o s t l y go t o Rivers Inlet. They s c a t t e r e d a l l o v e r . They had a l o t o f b l o o d y c a n n e r i e s up t h e r e . T h e r e w a s N. P. — Northern P a c i f i c , B. C. P a c k e r s , C a n a d i a n F i s h , w e l l t o w a r d t h e e n d , N e l s o n B r o t h e r s got i n t h e r e w i t h a l i t t l e c a n n e r y i n P o r t E d w a r d s . T h e r e w a s some o t h e r c o m p a n i e s t h e r e . We s c a t t e r e d a l l o v e r y o u know. O n l y t h e m a i n c o m p a n i e s a r e a c t i v e now, t h e b i g companies. F i r s t y e a r when I w e n t up was 1 9 2 4 . I w a s w i t h B. C. Packers. T h e n I s w i t c h e d t o Tom W a l l a c e , W a l l a c e Canning Company I g u e s s t h e y c a l l e d them. A y e a r o r t w o a f t e r I was a t C l a x t o n t h e y a m a l g a m a t e d w i t h B. C. P a c k e r s . Q u i t e a few o t h e r s m a l l c o m p a n i e s j o i n e d b . C. P a c k e r s y o u k n o w . They bought the l i t t l e f e l l o w s out I guess. They bought Wallace F i s h i n g Co. N o t t o o l o n g a g o , Tom W a l l a c e w a s t e l l i n g me t h e y n e v e r g o t a l l t h e i r m o n e y w h e n t h e y s o l d o u t t o B. C. Packers.  Question:  D i d you ever go f i s h i n g a t R i v e r s I n l e t ?  67  Yes. I went there one season a f t e r I q u i t Skeena. L y l e and John Cook heard rumors there was g r e a t b i g r u n up t h e r e . I d i d n ' t want t o go up t h e r e . I had enough o f t r a v e l l i n g back .and f o r t h . I t h i n k i t was 1950 when they went up. They had a r e n t a l boat from I m p e r i a l (B. C. P a c k e r s ) . They were q u i t e young. They got e x c i t e d , they wanted t o go up t h e r e . A whole bunch o f guys. I t o l d them — you guys w i l l be up there too damn l a t e . I t might have been '50. A . whole bunch s t a r t e d o f f . Mostly B. C. Packers boats as I remember. I d i d n ' t want t o go, but the o l d lady t o l d me t o go a l o n g w i t h t h e boys. So I went up. B i l l McDonald and Ed Peterson, a whole bunch. About t e n o r f i f t e e n boats s t a r t e d o f f f o r R i v e r s I n l e t . We went running a f t e r them, the f i s h was a l r e a d y canned. We d i d a l l r i g h t though f o r the s h o r t time we were t h e r e . I got e i g h t hundred sockeye; I f o r g o t what John and them g o t . Roy (Wilson) happened t o be home t h a t year too, and he went t e a r i n g up. We were l a t e ; the main run was f i n i s h e d when we got up t h e r e . I j u s t happened t o be l u c k y ; I got more than the other guys t h a t went up. Running a f t e r canned salmon, you know! I f i g u r e d i t would be t h a t way because t h a t run up there never l a s t s very l o n g . One o r two weeks, t h a t ' s i t . Only s t r a g g l e r s a f t e r . I guess i f we'd made i t . We c o u l d n ' t make i t a c r o s s the sound when we got there Sunday morning. We wanted t o get up there f o r the opening. We d i d n ' t get up there t i l l the Monday. T h i s about the t e n t h o f J u l y when we s t a r t e d going up t h e r e . Late you know. That's the o n l y time I was ever i n Rivers I n l e t . I made up my mind t o q u i t going up and down the c o a s t l o n g before t h a t . That's o n l y once I was up R i v e r s I n l e t . Never bothered no more, although they had some good seasons a f t e r t h a t . I thought I b e t t e r stay p u t a t home. Question:  D i d you f i s h anywhere on your way up t o Skeena?  No. J u s t went s t r a i g h t up. When t h i n g s got bad i n Skeena R i v e r I s t a r t e d f i s h i n g on the Banks I s l a n d . Minkt r a p Bay a l l around t h e r e . I f i s h e d t h e r e f o r about f i v e , s i x years I guess. Skeena was j u s t — w e l l our main camp was a t C l a x t o n , but t h e r e was a camp i n Minktrap. We stayed t h e r e p r e t t y near a l l summer. They had no bath or nothing out t h e r e . We used t o get on a packer and go up t o C l a x t o n , get cleaned up every o t h e r week. Whole bunch ' started f i s h i n g out t h e r e . We'd get a packer t o go up, come back e a r l y Sunday morning. We g o t t a be t h e r e f o r opening Sunday, 6:00 (P.M. ) you know. We used t o f i s h up t o F r i d a y , 6:00 i n the a f t e r n o o n . Get home and g e t t o the camp, p u l l your n e t on the r a c k . Then get on a packer and t r a v e l a l l n i g h t j u s t t o g e t t o the camp. I d i d w e l l t h e r e . Question:  I s there no l i m i t on the number o f f i s h caught?  68  1930 i s the o n l y time I remember. There was a b i g run i n 1930 and they l i m i t e d fishermen f o r a w h i l e t o about two hundred f o r one o r two days, t h a t was a l l ; t h a t ' s the o n l y time I remember them l i m i t i n g up t h e r e . There was so many c a n n e r i e s a l l over you know. There was c a n n e r i e s a l l over Inverness Slough I guess. I can't r e c a l l how many, I o n l y went through t h e r e a few times, j u s t t r a v e l l i n g . Port E s s i n g t o n , t h e r e was c a n n e r i e s a l l over there the same way as they were i n Steveston you know. I t s t a r t e d t o p e t e r o u t too, the same way as what happened here. The s l i d e i n Babine — Babine must have been one o f the main spawning grounds. Nobody kiew t h e r e was a s l i d e t h e r e too. The r i v e r was blocked o f f f o r q u i t e a few y e a r s b e f o r e they found out. I t h i n k t h e r e a l l y bad year: was 1938 o r *39. There was n o t h i n g . I had maybe s i x , seven, e i g h t hundred sockeye f o r the season. That was p r e t t y c l o s e to the t o p s . At 50* a p i e c e , my God, you can't pay f o r expenses up (Skeena) — g a s o l i n e , n e t s , l i v i n g up t h e r e . I j u s t never made n o t h i n g . In f a c t I was about $300 - $400 i n debt. I had t o borrow money from Granny (Rose) t o get down, t o buy gas. Question:  Was she (Rose Sparrow) working up there?  Yes, she worked up t h e r e . She worked up t h e r e — w e l l , not every year. Sometimes she stayed home you know. The l a s t few years I went up t h e r e she .... she worked u n t i l 1926, I guess. Oh, she went up t h e r e i n 1927. I went up e a r l y t h a t year. B u i l d a cannery wing. I t h i n k t h a t was t h e f i r s t year she went up. She went up i n '25, t h a t ' s r i g h t . . . . I went up t h e r e t o work on t h e cannery r e p a i r s . We went up i n March. They were s t a r t i n g t o r e b u i l d the cannery. I'd do t h a t f o r two o r t h r e e y e a r s . I used t o go up e a r l y . I t h i n k 1930 she d i d n ' t go. I can't r e c a l l t h e o t h e r years she stayed home. I d i d n ' t want t o go up w i t h k i d s . She'd i n s i s t t o go a f t e r t h a t . So I'd have t o take h e r a l o n g . Sometimes you go up on the steamboat and o t h e r times you want to t r a v e l on the boat. You can't make money t r a v e l l i n g on t h e steamboat a l l the time, t o o many k i d s . I don't know how many years she worked up t h e r e . knows h e r s e l f . 1928 Question:  She  when I bought my f i r s t new boat, you know.  D i d you f i s h o t h e r than i n t h e r i v e r ?  When we got home from Skeena we used t o f i s h out here. We t r a v e l l e d up and down t h e c o a s t from 1927 up u n t i l the time I q u i t . Mike and them kept going up t h e r e f o r f i v e - s i x years a f t e r I q u i t going up. 1942 the l a s t year I went up. Ronny went up i n 1943, Mike and Ronny went up t h e r e  69 a few times a f t e r I q u i t going you know, w i t h Mike and them. I c a n ' t r e c a l l how many times he went up, but he t r a v e l l e d w i t h Mike and them f o r a few times up t h e r e . When he (Ronny) q u i t he s t a r t e d f i s h i n g R i v e r s I n l e t . I t h i n k Mike went up t h e r e f o r s i x , seven years a f t e r I q u i t . I j u s t d i d n ' t l i k e t o run around w i t h my f a m i l y on board the boat you know. That's the o n l y way you make money going up t h e r e when the f i s h a r e so damn cheap. You count your expenses from the time you l e a v e here. There's gas and g r o c e r i e s ; i f you break down somewhere a l o n g the way, §?ou g o t t a stop and r e p a i r your engine. You get up t h e r e you got a n e t t o pay f o r . They s t a r t e d t o r e s t r i c t the l i n e s and one t h i n g and another. One time they used t o g i v e us the net f o r n o t h i n g , and the l i n e s f o r n o t h i n g . They r e p a i r your n e t when you snag and don't charge you n o t h i n g , r e p l a c e your l e a d l i n e s i f you l o s t i t — no charge. That's the l a s t f o u r o r f i v e years up t h e r e . They made everybody pay f o r e v e r y t h i n g we got. F o r a w h i l e e v e r y t h i n g was good — f r e e . In f a c t they gave me a n e t sometimes when I came down when I got a bum season up t h e r e . They helped, they were p r e t t y good t o me up t h e r e you know. I broke down one y e a r . I guess i t was about '36, '37. I l o s t about two weeks f i s h i n g . They never had no spare boat up t h e r e . I got used t o a gas boat. I t r i e d s a i l b o a t ; and I c o u l d n ' t make a go o f i t . F i n a l l y they got an engine sent up. I t took about two weeks b e f o r e I got going a g a i n , they g i v e me the engine f o r n o t h i n g ; they never charged me f o r i t . I guess they f i g u r e I l o s t too much time. Sometimes t h e y ' g i v e me a n e t t o s t a r t w i t h down here. When you're paying f o r a boat, and your gear and e v e r y t h i n g e l s e you don't have much money coming through i n them days. When you get down here you g o t t a s t a r t t o use d i f f e r e n t k i n d s of nets down here. Nets you used up t h e r e were o i l e d you know, f i n e r . I t doesn't stand up here f o r any l e n g t h o f time. I t breaks much e a s i e r . L i n e n nets they have over here — f l a x , made o f f l a x . S t r o n g e r , but t h e y ' r e c o a r s e r . E a r l y i n the season, I went one year t o Nass R i v e r . That's o u t s i d e o f P o r t Simpson. Sometimes you do p r e t t y w e l l t h e r e on sockeyes you know. I t takes about f i v e - s i x hours to g e t t h e r e from C l a x t o n . That's b e f o r e we s t a r t e d going out Banks I s l a n d . I k i n d o f t h i n k Ronny went t h e r e two o r t h r e e times a f t e r , t h e same p l a c e where we used t o go. M o s t l y the e a r l y p a r t . There's never any f i s h i n Skeena as f a r as I c o u l d remember i n the opening. 1930 was the o n l y time. I t opened on the t w e n t i e t h (of June? L . S . ) . I got up l a t e t h a t year. I bumped a k i d (with the car) i n town and had t o stay t h e r e t o f i n d out how he was. A t l e a s t I was t o l d t o stay around. The same day I was supposed t o be moving up n o r t h . When t h a t happened I took some guys t h a t were going t o Skeena from here t o Union Wharf. They were going t o go up on a boat. On my way back a k i d c r o s s e d me on a b i c y c l e a t the o l d Georgia V i a d u c t .  70 I was one week b e h i n d M i k e a n d t h e m . They were w a i t i n g f o r me d o w n t h e P o i n t ( P o i n t G r e y ). There was no r a d i o p h o n e s o r n o t h i n g i n t h e m d a y s . They s t a y e d t h e r e t i l l 4:00 t h a t d a y a n d f i n a l l y t h e y l e f t . When I g o t up t h e r e , I was a week and two d a y s b e h i n d t h e o t h e r g u y s y o u know. I t was T u e s d a y when I g o t up t h e r e , M i k e a l r e a d y had e i g h t hundred s o c k e y e . I n j u s t a week a n d a h a l f he h a d e i g h t hundred sockeye. I guess Mike had f o u r t h o u s a n d , e i g h t hundred. I had f o u r t h o u s a n d , f o u r hundred f o r t h e y e a r , f o r t h e s e a s o n a f t e r g e t t i n g up l a t e . P r e t t y near c a u g h t up t o M i k e . I d o n ' t t h i n k h e h a d t h a t m a n y -- o n l y two hundred d i f f e r e n c e anyway. M i k e was h i g h b o a t and I came s e c o n d f o r t h e s e a s o n . I g u e s s we w e r e l u c k y . Year a f t e r y e a r we w e r e d o i n g t h e s a m e t h i n g y o u k n o w . I f Mike d o n ' t come h i g h b o a t , I came h i g h b o a t . V e r y s e l d o m somebody e l s e beats us. W e l l , we w o r k e d h a r d , h a r d l y e v e n s l e e p . Question: up t h e r e ?  How  d i d t h e o t h e r p e o p l e who  went f r o m Musqueam  do  They w e r e m o s t l y on r e n t a l b o a t s y o u know. You c a n ' t go up t h e r e a n d e x p e c t t o make money i n S k e e n a R i v e r r i g h t off the bat. You've got t o l e a r n the p l a c e s . I t ' s a hard place to fish. Take you f o u r , f i v e y e a r s t o g e t onto t h a t place. ' Over here, chuck out your n e t i n the g u l f at n i g h t , w e l l you're l u c k y you get a bunch of f i s h . Up there i t ' s something d i f f e r e n t . You've g o t t o be on t h e j o b the w h o l e b l o o d y t i m e y o u know. You've got t o l e a r n , s t u d y the t i d e s and what n o t . I don't t h i n k t h e y done v e r y good. E d d y G u i e r i n w e n t up t h e r e , B u s , o l d J a c k — Walker's f a t h e r , B i l l y G r a n t , Tony P o i n t , t h e r e ' s a bunch o f them w e n t up t h e r e . But they d i d n ' t l a s t long. I t h i n k Ed G u e r i n o n l y w e n t up o n e s e a s o n up t h e r e . Tony w e n t up t h e r e f o r a few y e a r s , oh — Sammy G r a n t w e n t u p t h e r e s e v e r a l t i m e s . A l P e t e r s , I s a a c W i l l i a m s f r o m T s a w w a s s e n w e n t up t h r e e , f o u r t i m e s , B i l l Jacob from Tsawwassen, P e t e r Jacob. They a l l g i v e up i n t i m e . I f y o u d i d n ' t k n o w how t o w o r k t h a t p l a c e v / e l l y o u ' r e j u s t w a s t i n g t i m e y o u know. Question: How d i d y o u l e a r n how t o f i s h u p t h e r e — t r y i n g o r d i d y o u h a v e someone t o show y o u ?  just  by  Well, I studied the place. Study the t i d e s . Some g u y s w o u l d go o u t a n y o l d t i m e . Well, you're j u s t wasting your time then. I t ' s n o t l i k e t h i s p l a c e y o u know. You t h i n k t h e F r a s e r R i v e r i s f a s t b u t Skeena i s t w i c e as f a s t . I f y o u go o u t t o o e a r l y y o u r n e t f l o a t s . Leadline wouldn't s t a y down. Q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g t o watch a l o t o f guys work t o b e a t h e l l , a l l t h e t i m e y o u s a y t h e y s h o u l d n ' t e v e n be out but they t r y . I  never  told  you  about  the Norwegians  they  brought  71 up t h e r e . T h e y b r o u g h t a b u n c h o f g u y s up t h e r e y o u know. I t h i n k i t was d u r i n g t h e w a r d a y s — Claxton. W e l l , they h a d no b u s i n e s s — a man w i t h a b l o o d y s a i l b o a t h a d n o b u s i n e s s g o i n g up t h e r e . B u t t h e y d i d , t h e y b r o u g h t t h e m u p t h e r e . We h a d g a s b o a t s t h e n y o u k n o w . They sent a l o t of them back. They c o u l d n ' t r i s k t h e i r l i v e s when t h e y d i d n ' t k n o w how t o w o r k . About four or f i v e boats — George J u n e n s o n , J a c o b s o n , J e t m u n d s o n , and I g u e s s two o r t h r e e o t h e r guys. T h e r e was f o u r o r f i v e b o a t s , t h a t ' s a l l . Two men t o a c r e w t h e n . I t l o o k e d c o m i c a l when t h e y t o o k them o u t a t s l a c k w a t e r and t r a i n e d them y o u know. They'd p u l l a n d t h e b l o o d y o a r s w o u l d come w a y u p o u t o f t h e w a t e r a n d t h e y ' d f a l l down. We'd w a t c h on t h e Weekend when t h e y ' r e t r a i n i n g them. K i n d o f f o o l i s h t o b r i n g t h e m g u y s up t h e r e . No e x p e r i e n c e o f a n y k i n d . B u t t h o s e t h a t w e r e k e p t up t h e r e t u r n e d o u t t o be g o o d f i s h e r m e n a f t e r a b i t . J a c o b s o n , and Jetmundson, George Junenson and h i s b r o t h e r , E l m e r , O l a f Jensen. T h e y made g o o d u p t h e r e , b u t i t t o o k t h e m a l o n g t i m e t o make g o o d . O l d Tom W a l l a c e h a d f a i t h i n t h o s e g u y s , he k e p t t h e m . T u r n e d o u t t o be good f i s h e r m e n l a t e r on. One g u y w a s d r i f t i n g u p . We'd already finished with t h e t i d e b u t he came d r i f t i n g u p . P r e t t y s o o n he s t o p p e d . I was s a y i n g y o u w a t c h t h a t g u y , h e ' s g o i n g t o h i t t h a t b l o o d y snag on t h e p o i n t o f t h a t b l o o d y b a r . Sure enough, w h e n he g o t t h e r e t h e b l o o d y b o a t s w u n g a r o u n d t h e o t h e r way I said — he g o t t h e s n a g . S u r e he had i t . He w a s p i c k e d u p w h e n h e g o t t o t h a t p l a c e . He c o u l d n ' t h a v e h a d v e r y much ( t o p i c k up ). We h a d n o b i n o c u l a r s o r n o t h i n g o n t h e b o a t s i n them d a y s y o u know. I g u e s s he t o o k t h e b l o c k off t h e boom. The m a s t . Y o u w a n t t o u s e i t a l l up when y o u want t o s a i l . He t i e d i t o n t o t h e b l o o d y n e t . He f i g u r e d he was g o i n g t o p u l l h i s n e t o f f t h e s n a g t h a t way. Pretty soon h i s b l o o d y b o a t went o v e r and l a i d on i t s s i d e . Dropped his mast. We d i d n ' t k n o w w h a t t h e h e c k w a s g o i n g o n . We were w a t c h i n g him a l l t h a t t i m e . A w h o l e b u n c h o f us guys w e r e t i e d u p w a i t i n g f o r t h e t i d e t o s l a c k d o w n b e f o r e we go again. When h e g o t t o t h e c a m p we a s k e d w h a t h a p p e n e d , C h r i s . T h a t ' s w h a t we u s e d t o c a l l h i m . He w o u l d n ' t t e l l . We saw h i m c h o p p i n g h i s b l o o d y m a s t when he was s n a g g e d , y o u know. He c o u l d n ' t f r e e i t , w e l l t h e d a m n t h i n g g o t s o damn f a r away i t w e n t and t i p p e d . The l i n e s w e n t t h a t way a n d he was over here. T h e n i t was l a y i n g o v e r o n i t s s i d e . Chopped t h e b l o o d y m a s t a n d t h e b o a t s a t up a g a i n , f u l l o f w a t e r y o u know. I t was c o m i c a l . T r y i n g t o t e a s e h i m . T h e L a n g l e y b u n c h w e r e u p t h e r e ~. . a b u n c h o ^ breeds. E v e r y w e e k e n d t h e y go i n t o R u p e r t a n d I g u e s s t h e y were a l l d r i n k e r s . A t n i g h t one t i m e t h e y s t a r t e d s h o o t i n g from the windows o u t . I d o n ' t know what t h e h e l l t h e y w e r e shooting at. Guys were s c a t t e r i n g , h i d i n g . We w e r e o u t m e n d i n g o u r n e t s i n t h e e v e n i n g when t h e y w e r e d o i n g t h a t you know. T h e r e were w h a r f s o u t on t h e f l a t s . J o e Kip, t  72 a n d I w e r e c l o s e t o g e t h e r , we w e r e m e n d i n g o u r n e t s . Prettysoon t h e y s t a r t e d s h o o t i n g . W e l l t h e y were q u a r r e l l i n g I guess. I c o u l d hear them a l l t h e t i m e . B u l l e t s were f l y i n g a l l over. We r a n b e h i n d t h e b l u e s t o n e t a n k s . Question:  How  often  do  you  have t o b l u e s t o n e your  net?  E v e r y weekend when y o u g e t i n , y o u know, y o u g o t t a re-bluestone i t . S o m e t i m e s we b l u e s t o n e i t a s we c o m e i n t h e n we g o a n d h a v e s u p p e r o r a b a t h . We c o m e b a c k a n d r a c k it. O n l y t h i n g you g o t t a wash i t r e a l c l e a n t o t a k e a l l t h a t b l u e s t o n e o f f . M o s t o f t h e t i m e we r a c k i t , w a s h i t , mend i t , b l u e s t o n e i t a n d h a u l i t r i g h t i n t o t h e b o a t a f t e r . So i t w o u l d n ' t b u r n t h a t way, y o u know. Your net c o u l d burn from b l u e s t o n e i f you don't get i to f f . Some p l a c e s — i t ' s a r o u g h p l a c e t o f i s h , y o u know. On a g r e a t b i g t i d e a t P o i n t - L a m b e r t w e ' d g o a l o n g f r o m Claxton. Sort of a r i p would form r i g h t from the p o i n t you know. You c o u l d n ' t g e t o v e r i t . You s t i c k a l o n g t h e b l o o d y r i p ; some g u y s ' n e t w o u l d c l i m b o v e r t h e b l o o d y p o i n t . You see t h e b l o o d y n e t d r a g o v e r t h e b l o o d y r o c k s l i k e t h a t . A l o t o f g u y s g o t c a u g h t t h a t way; t h e y l o s e e v e r y d a r n t h i n g . T r y t o p i c k up t h e i r n e t a f t e r , w e l l t h e r e ' s n o t h i n g l e f t o f i t , you know, i t goes t o p i e c e s d r a g g i n g o v e r . Oh, d o u b t make n o t e s .  i f I could  remember e v e r y t h i n g .  I  should  I g u e s s i t was l a t e ' 3 0 ' s . We w e r e w a i t i n g f o r t h e t i d e t o s l a c k e n up. I t was b a c k i n g up f o r t h e m . Close to h i g h w a t e r b e f o r e we m o v e . Somebody s a i d , t h e r e was a f i r e at Claxton. We w e r e a n c h o r e d a t t h e G l o r y H o l e . A l l the f i s h were gone t h e n . We w e r e b e h i n d t h e p o i n t — we c o u l d n ' t see C l a x t o n . I d o n ' t k n o w who c a m e d o w n t o t h e b o a t t o l e t us know. We h a d a b o u t f o u r o r f i v e m i l e s t o r u n I g u e s s f r o m t h e camp t o t h e c a n n e r y . We g o t s c a r e d . The b o i l e r room caught on f i r e . They s a i d the tank might e x p l o d e , a n d t h e y s c a r e d e v e r y b o d y a w a y f r o m t h e camp y o u k n o w . I c o u l d n ' t f i n d my f a m i l y w h e n I g o t t o t h e c a n n e r y . They were a l l up i n t h e b u s h . Nobody around. They packed e v e r y t h i n g we h a d a n d h e a d e d t o w a r d t h e s l o u g h r e a l q u i c k . A l l our j u n k was down t h e r e a t t h e e d g e o f t h e c r e e k down b e l o w . I d o n ' t k n o w how; G r a n n y p a c k e d a l l t h o s e t h i n g s I g u e s s . P e o p l e f r o m up t h e r e p a c k e d e v e r y t h i n g down. The w h o l e camp a l m o s t e m p t i e d t h e i r s h a c k s and r a n away. I t was q u i t e a ways. The b o y s w e r e a l l h e l l a n d gone up t h e t r a i l t o w a r d C a r l y l e C a n n e r y when I c a u g h t up t o t h e m y o u know — Willard and Ronny and t h e whole b u n c h o f them. A l l the young boys f r o m camp, r u n away. I w e n t a n d a s k e d t h e man, w h a t t h e h e c k y o u s c a r e a l l t h e p e o p l e f o r . Gee w h i z , t h e y r u n a l l o v e r h e c k . Some o f t h e m c o u l d h a r d l y w a l k w h e n we c a u g h t u p t o t h e m . Them  73 N o r t h e r n p e o p l e h a d some o l d l a d i e s t h e r e y o u k n o w . We told t h e m t o go b a c k , t h e b l o o d y f i r e was o u t . I quit fishing for t h e day t h e n . We h a d a h e c k o f a . t i m e p a c k i n g t h e m t h i n g s back. I d o n ' t k n o w how t h e h e c k y o u r G r a n n y p a c k e d t h e m o u t . S h e was s c a r e d I g u e s s . I t s t a r t e d a f i r e i n our shack. The w i n d was b l o w i n g p r e t t y g o o d y o u know; w e s t w i n d b l o w i n g r i g h t from the cannery to our shack. The s h a c k s w e r e l i n e d up. The c a n n e r y was way o f f o n t h e b l o o d y f l a t s , y o u know. Yeah, i t s t a r t e d a f i r e on our r o o f . Question: Did the t o r e n t them?  cannery  provide housing  or d i d you  have  They s u p p l i e d t h e h o u s e s f o r f i s h e r m e n and cannery workers. No r e n t t h e n . Same w a y i n S t e v e s t o n , y o u d i d n ' t have t o r e n t t i l l Ken F r a s e r and them g o t t h e r e and t h e y started that rental business. Everybody paying r e n t i n the cannery shacks. Question: Did the boys ever Skeena? ( W i l l a r d and Ron)  go  out  fishing  w i t h you  at  Oh y e a h , t h e y f i s h e d w i t h me. The w h o l e f a m i l y was up. A l l t h e t i m e I was g o i n g t o B a n k s I s l a n d t h e y w e r e f i s h i n g w i t h me. They w e r e q u i t e s m a l l t h e n y o u know. I g i v e up h a v i n g a p a r t n e r ; I w a s h a v i n g s o m u c h t r o u b l e w i t h partners. W e e k e n d s t h e y g e t a p a c k e r a n d go t o R u p e r t , g e t plastered. You n e v e r s e e them no more y o u know. Sometimes t h e y g e t home l a t e , y o u n e v e r g e t o u t t o o p e n i n g o n S u n d a y . S o , I g a v e up h a v i n g p a r t n e r s . T h e b o y s s t a r t e d f i s h i n g w i t h me e v e r y s u m m e r t i l l R o n n y g o t h i s own b o a t . T h e n he w e n t o n h i s own. J o h n n y was f i s h i n g w i t h h i m t h e n . Willard u s e d t o f i s h w i t h me. But b e f o r e t h a t b o t h o f them used t o f i s h w i t h me i n B a n k s I s l a n d . T h e n I was g o i n g t o q u i t u p t h e r e a n d J o h n n y a n d L y l e s t a r t e d f i s h i n g w i t h me o v e r h e r e . T h a t was j u s t f o r company y o u know. I q u i t Skeena a l t o g e t h e r f o r about s i x — eight years. B e f o r e I q u i t g o i n g up t h e r e I u s e d t o go up Banks I s l a n d . A t t i m e s i t u s e d t o g e t r o u g h up t h e r e . No r u s h i n g l i k e y o u do i n S k e e n a . You don't need a p a r t n e r then. A l l h a n d p i c k i n g , no d r u m s . They had a b l o o d y niggerhead to p u l l your net around. You f a c e away f r o m t h e s t e r n when y o u ' r e p i c k i n g up. T a k e one w i n d on t h i s t h i n g . This turns. We d i d w e l l up t h e r e y o u k n o w . T h e r e was no f i s h i n ' 4 2 , b u t '41 we d i d w e l l u p t h e r e . We f i s h e d , R o n n y a n d I , we f i s h e d o v e r t o w a r d s E d d y ' s P a s s . We d i d n ' t f i s h t h e r i v e r a t a l l , we s t a y e d o u t s i d e f i s h i n g a l l t h e t i m e . Ronny d i d good. He w a s j u s t g o i n g o n s i x t e e n , y o u know, he w o u l d n ' t be s i x t e e n u n t i l S e p t e m b e r t h a t y e a r . B u t h e k n e w how t o f i s h t h a t p l a c e . He w a s w i t h me from  74 when he was about t e n years o l d t i l l he got h i s own boat. W e l l , he worked. He d i d w e l l over here when they g o t down i n '42. F i s h i n g used t o be good one time you know. He got a whole bunch o f f i s h j u s t down below here one time (Musqueam L . S . ) . Then when i t slackened o f f — we f i s h e d here f o r about a week — we went t o the main r i v e r over by S t e v e s t o n . He d i d w e l l t h e r e . In f a c t everybody d i d w e l l , I guess. That year t h e r e were a l o t o f f i s h . That's one of the b i g g e s t seasons I had, I guess, the Adam's R i v e r r u n . That's when the p r i c e begin t o change from t h a t time on — 1942. That year we got 50*. From t h a t time on i t s t a r t e d t o come up a l i t t l e b i t every y e a r . Q u e s t i o n:  Were the f i s h i n c r e a s i n g o r d e c r e a s i n g i n number?  W e l l , t h a t ' s a r e a l l y b i g run (1942). I t was every f o u r y e a r s , the Adams r u n . I t was k i n d o f s u r p r i s i n g you know. 1930 I guess was the b e g i n n i n g o f t h a t , o r 1926. That's the year I went w i t h Mike a f t e r I came back from Skeena. A l o t o f sockeye showed up i n September over t h e r e i n Canoe Pass. That was the b e g i n n i n g o f t h a t .  Tape 26 Recorded:  March 5, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrow WORK HISTORY  We were t a l k i n g about 1942. No, 1930. 1926 was when I f i r s t noted the change i n the l a t e run sockeye you know, t h a t ' s what fhey c a l l the Adams R i v e r r u n . 1934, s t i l l b i g g e r but i t was so cheap. Then ending o f September you're g e t t i n g next t o n o t h i n g f o r sockeye, 15* o r so a p i e c e . The company says they d i d n ' t want them, t h e r e ' s not s a l e f o r them. Number two grade they c a l l them. So we b e l i e v e them and accepted j u s t a few c e n t s . Then 1938 i t ' s s t i l l the same way. T h e i r excuse i s t h e r e ' s no s a l e f o r them. They never d i d l i m i t , they j u s t cut you o f f . Say we don't want your f i s h . In 1930 they c u t us o f f about f i f t e e n t h o f September, I guess. We d i d n ' t even f i s h u n t i l the sockeye c l e a r e d o f f from the r i v e r . I t was November I guess when we s t a r t e d f i s h i n g a g a i n . A l l the time the company d i d n ' t want the sockeye. The same t h i n g  75 happened w e l l , every y e a r . 1938 they o f f e r e d a n i c k e l apiece i f we wanted t o f i s h you know. They were going t o s h i p i t a c r o s s the l i n e i s what they s a i d . Everybody q u i t . I t r i e d one n i g h t , and t o heck w i t h i t , I g i v e up. They dressed what they got. F i n a l l y the f i s h e r i e s department stepped i n and c l o s e d i t down. We l o s e p r e t t y near a l l our f a l l f i s h i n g then. 1942, one day both Mike and I had about one thousand, s i x hundred f o r the day you know. Two d e l i v e r i e s (50* a p i e c e ) . Then they dropped i t r i g h t a f t e r . The t e n t h o f September I t h i n k when they dropped the p r i c e down again t o 25* a p i e c e then to 15* a g a i n . F i n a l l y they s a i d they d i d n ' t want them. I f you want t o f i s h w e ' l l g i v e you a n i c k e l a p i e c e and w e ' l l d r e s s and s h i p i t a c r o s s the l i n e . But the F i s h e r i e s Department says no and c l o s e d i t . And i t was c l o s e d a g a i n . And from t h e r e on the p r i c e s t a r t e d t o change, improve, you know. Then both c o u n t r i e s ' governments, the U n i t e d S t a t e s government and Canada got t o g e t h e r . They s t a r t e d t h i s i n f o r mation program. They s t a r t e d t a g g i n g f i s h t o s t a r t w i t h . I t wasn't too s t r i c t you know, we were s t i l l g e t t i n g t h r e e , f o u r days a week f i s h i n g . I t was poor i n the summer months. Nothing a t a l l . There was one good year o f summer sockeye. I can't r e c a l l t h a t year. There was a mixed run -- C h i l c o , Stelako and a l l them — F r a s e r . F r a s e r Lake sockeye p e t e r e d r i g h t o u t f o r some reason. They s t a r t e d b u i l d i n g other runs. There was a r e s t r i c t i o n put on — one o r two days a week i n 1943 o r '44. I t kept on and on and on t i l l I q u i t f i s h i n g . One, two days a week. I t got r e a l bad so you c o u l d n ' t make a l i v i n g out of i t you know. I t s t a r t e d t o b u i l d up. D i f f e r e n t runs b u i l t up. They made f i s h l a d d e r s and so on you know. B u i l d up. There's a l l k i n d s o f d i f f e r e n t p l a c e s they (salmon) go on the l a k e s i n the i n t e r i o r . I can't r e c a l l j u s t what c y c l e t h e r e we had a p r e t t y good season out o f i t you know. Two, t h r e e days a week — we made money out o f i t . Other f o l l o w i n g c y c l e s i n the f o l l o w i n g y e a r s , i t wasn't too good. S t u a r t , and I can't r e c a l l the o t h e r p l a c e s t h a t b u i l t up. By'the time they come i n , the Northern fishermen used t o get back. A l o t o f times we wished they'd never get back f o r a w h i l e . They get back and c u t us o f f you know. Sometimes I stayed r i g h t i n S p r i n g f i s h i n g i n s t e a d of p u t t i n g on a sockeye net you know. I d i d w e l l a t times w h i l e the other guys were f i s h i n g sockeye. P r e t t y soon everybody s t a r t e d doing t h e same t h i n g . No sockeye, they f i s h s p r i n g s . The p r i c e o f f i s h was g e t t i n g p r e t t y good then you know; s t a r t e d t o come up, improve. I t p a i d us t o f i s h s p r i n g s . J u s t when the main run o f sockeye was on I'd f i s h them. Other times I'd j u s t s t a y w i t h s p r i n g n e t s — do b e t t e r t h a t way. A l o t o f people d i d n ' t r e a l i z e I was d o i n g much b e t t e r than they were f o r a l o n g time. They s t a r t e d doing t h e same t h i n g .  76 Question; When d i d you s t a r t f i s h i n g w i t h the o l d f e l l o w , Tommy Musqueam? I must have been e l e v e n , I t h i n k . I was u s e l e s s . He j u s t wanted me f o r company. I c o u l d h a r d l y move the boat you know. Two g r e a t b i g oars Columbia b u i l t boats i n them days, s a i l boats. You got t o throw the n e t o f f . You d i d n ' t have no drums or n o t h i n g then. You g o t t a k i n d o f spread i t as you throw i t out. Keep the l i n e s p a r t e d . I was k i n d o f s m a l l f o r my age you know. I d i d n ' t mind. He'd buy me c l o t h e s a t the end o f t h e season you know. I used t o s t a y o u t t i l l about the t e n t h o f August I guess. I was supposed t o be back a t s c h o o l the end o f J u l y , but they used t o l e t me stay out because I worked. Get my c l o t h e s and a l i t t l e spending money, I was happy. Go back t o s c h o o l . I d i d t h a t f o r two, t h r e e y e a r s , w i t h him. I f i s h e d w i t h Tommy Cole i n 1913, then I s t a r t e d f i s h i n g w i t h the o l d f e l l a a g a i n . Then I s t a r t e d g e t t i n g my t h i r d share as I got o l d e r you know, he gave me a t h i r d . From t h e r e on, i t wasn't the p r i c e , but the f i s h j u s t p e t e r e d out. That s l i d e i n 1913, nobody knew a n y t h i n g about i t you know. I t blocked the r i v e r so t h e f i s h c o u l d n ' t get up, they j u s t d i e d o f f . Question; Was the o l d f e l l o w f i s h i n g f o r a long time b e f o r e you went out w i t h him? Oh yes, he kept f i s h i n g by h i m s e l f . He f i s h e d f o r a l o n g time a f t e r you know. He kept t r y i n g and t r y i n g . W e l l , h i s w i f e was working i n one o f the c a n n e r i e s and he was fishing. He was a good fisherman. I guess i t was i n h i s blood; he never q u i t t i l l he got o l d , then he q u i t a l t o g e t h e r . I don't know, he never worked, but he j u s t knew the s p o t s , d i f f e r e n t p l a c e s a t a c e r t a i n time,. Broken t i d e we'd be away a l l n i g h t . He never went on the o t h e r s i d e l i k e Tommy Cole d i d on Spanish Banks. They had t h e i r nets o i l e d . They were woven f i n e r and they were r e a l t i g h t . T i g h t t w i s t I guess you'd c a l l i t . They'd o i l i t . When they put i t i n bluestone i t k i n d o f t u r n s greeny-black. P r e t t y near match the water o u t t h e r e . The same t h i n g up the Skeena, but the nets don't l a s t too l o n g . The m a j o r i t y o f people never d i d t h a t t o t h e i r nets you know on account o f the heat, I guess, from the sun. When you put i t o u t t o mend i t , i t k i n d o f burns. A l o t o f people d i d n ' t bother t o o i l t h e i r n e t s . And you have t o have a c e r t a i n k i n d o f t w i s t on your net. I t c o s t s more I guess. The o i l l a s t s — w e l l , you're l u c k y t o get through one season. Used to g e t p r e t t y s o f t by the time you get through w i t h it.,up Skeena. you know. You s t a r t maybe t w e n t i e t h June and q u i t about t e n t h of August. Your n e t was g e t t i n g p r e t t y s o f t by the time you q u i t , on account of heat, I guess, o r l a y i n g i n the boats you know, bunched up. When t h e r e ' s no o i l on, w e l l i t ' l l l a s t you a couple o f seasons down here. Question:  D i d anyone e l s e i n your f a m i l y go i n t o  c o u s i n s , e t c . , those about your age?  fishing;  77 No. I was t h e o n l y b o y o f t h e f a m i l y y o u know. Do y o u mean i n o u r w h o l e f a m i l y ? I don't t h i n k so, not f o r q u i t e a w h i l e a f t e r I s t a r t e d a g a i n i n 1924. Then t h e y a l l seemed t o s t a r t a g a i n g o i n g up R i v e r ' s I n l e t f r o m h e r e y o u know. A w h o l e b u n c h u s e d t o go up R i v e r s I n l e t y o u know. J u s t one p a r t i c u l a r s p o t . They were a l l s a i l boat days t o o up t h e r e . They u s e d s k i f f s o r s o m e t h i n g up t h e r e , a n d t h e y c o u l d n ' t move i t down. They u s e d t o go up t h e r e f o r t h e summer, a n d when t h e y ' r e f i n i s h e d , t h e y ' r e f i n i s h e d . They u s e d t o make b i g money up t h e r e y o u know. A l o t of fish I g u e s s w e r e c a u g h t up t h e r e . V i c (Guerin) and a whole bunch of them u s e d t o go up t h e r e . Ed G u e r i n , Steve August, P a t Johnny, C o r n e l i u s Johnny, w e l l p r a c t i c a l l y t h e whole bunch of p e o p l e f r o m h e r e , t h e y o u n g e r f e l l o w s y o u know. I t was a l l s a i l b o a t s t h e n , s k i f f s . They're a l i t t l e bit l i g h t e r than the Columbia b u i l t boats. They p u l l around p r e t t y easy I guess, they're l i g h t e r . They h a d t u g b o a t s up t h e r e t o w i n g t h e m a r o u n d , t h e same a s t h e y d i d o t h e r p l a c e s . Get t o a s p o t where you t h i n k you're g o i n g t o f i s h f o rt h e d a y , a n d y o u d r o p o u t f r o m a t o w . Y o u l e t t h e bov; o u t l o o s e f i r s t , t h e n you hang on t h e s t e r n and swing t h e b o a t . I t shoots you r i g h t c l e a r . I f y o u d i d n ' t know how, w e l l y o u c o u l d g e t t a n g l e d up a n d t i p o v e r . The t u g b o a t n e v e r s t o p p e d y o u know. Y o u j u s t l e t go when y o u f i n d a s p o t t o f i s h i n . We g o t q u i t e t o w e d u p a n d s c a r e d q u i t e a f e w t i m e s t h a t way. M i s e r a b l e , o h , i t was a m i s e r a b l e p l a c e t o f i s h y o u know. I t r a i n s l o t s o f t i m e s up t h e r e . Much more t h a n i t d o e s h e r e i n t h e summer. When B i l l B a k e r w a s u p t h e r e w i t h me i t d i d p r e t t y n e a r t h e w h o l e summer t i l l t h e e n d o f J u l y before i tgot l i k e t h i s . E v e r y t h i n g w a s s o damn w e t t h e r e . I n e v e r l a i d i n t h e b l o o d y bunk — we h a d a l i t t l e b u n k u p i n t h e head o f t h e b l o o d y b o a t , a l i t t l e b i th i g h e r t h a n t h e f l o o r of the boat. I t used t o g e t wet. I never even b o t h e r e d t o go i n t h e r e . I used t o j u s t s t a n d by t h e mast i n my r a i n o u t f i t . T h e n t h e r a i n w o u l d go down y o u r b l o o d y n e c k y o u know a n d y o u ' d g e t w e t j u s t t h e same. I n time you'd get wet. I u s e d t o s t a y i n camp a n d d r y o u r c l o t h e s t h e r e . O t h e r g u y s w o u l d go a n d make h i g h w a t e r . We'd s t a y r i g h t there. F i n a l l y t h e camp man t o l d u s t o m o v e e v e r y t h i n g t h e r e a n d we s l e p t i n h i s c a b i n ! Yeah, a m i s e r a b l e l i f e t h a t Skeena R i v e r . I t h i n k t h a t ' s how A n d y W i l s o n g o t t h a t a r t h r i t i s o r r h e u m a t i s m o r w h a t e v e r he g o t y o u know. I t ' s t h r o u g h g o i n g up t h e r e . He v/as p l a y i n g i t t o u g h , h e w o u l d n ' t p u t on a r a i n h a t . He'd p u t on a l i t t l e s h o r t r a i n c o a t t h a t ' s a l l , a t t i m e s . M o s t o f t h e t i m e he h a s n ' t g o t i t o n . E v e r y b o d y was w a r n i n g h i m a b o u t i t . No, h e ' d j u s t l a u g h i t off. I'm s u r e t h a t ' s w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h h i m , y o u k n o w . Question: The o l d f e l l o w your uncle?  you went o u t w i t h  first  —  that  was  78  Grand u n c l e . H e ' s my g r a n d f a t h e r ' s c o u s i n . He'd b e g r a n d u n c l e t o me, I g u e s s . My g r a n d f a t h e r d i d some f i s h i n g t o o , b u t he q u i t . He w a n t e d t o b u y a n o t h e r s a i l b o a t a f t e r h i s w e n t h a y w i r e y o u know, a n d he s t a r t e d w o r k i n g i n the cannery. I g u e s s h e made 35* a n h o u r . He w o r k e d i n t h e cannery instead o f f i s h i n g . He w a s h i r i n g . I d o n ' t know w h a t he was g e t t i n g p e r h e a d h i r i n g p e o p l e t o go t o w o r k . They u s e d t o send h i m a l l o v e r t h e p l a c e y o u know. Same t h i n g when he was a t t h e V a n c o u v e r C a n n e r y . He u s e d t o h i r e f o r a company t h e r e y o u know — Millards then. He m u s t h a v e made g o o d m o n e y b e c a u s e h e w e n t a l l o v e r h i r i n g p e o p l e t o come a n d w o r k i n t h e c a n n e r y . I never asked him, I n e v e r f o u n d o u t w h a t he was m a k i n g . Question:  D i d he go b a c k  to this  j o b year a f t e r  year?  Oh h e c k , y e s ! He w a s h i r i n g f o r S c o t t i s h C a n a d i a n Cannery f o r a long time. When t h a t w e n t , h e came t o V a n c o u v e r C a n n e r y a n d he h i r e d p e o p l e t h e r e , c a n n e r y w o r k e r s . He w a s a l l o v e r . T h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n money i n i t f o r h i m . 0  Question: for  Was  he h i r i n g  a l o t of people  P r e t t y near a l lt h e p e o p l e used t h e c a n n e r y where he h i r e d .  from  Musqueam?  t o go t h e r e ,  work  T h e r e was a f e w c a n n e r i e s t h i n n e d o u t a f t e r a b i t . No f i s h . M i l l a r d had t h e o n l y cannery on t h e whole r i v e r . A l l t h e f i s h f r o m t h e m a i n r i v e r a n d p a r t w a y s u p n o r t h came to one cannery. P e o p l e w o u l d have a l o t o f w o r k t h a t way. Same w a y i t h a p p e n e d i n S t e v e s t o n . A l l t h e m l i t t l e c a n n e r i e s , company c a n n e r i e s , formed one b i g c a n n e r y . Imperial i sthe one where t h e y b r o u g h t t h e f i s h t o . They had A t l a s , q u i t e a f e w ; t h a t camp o v e r b y P a c i f i c C o a s t c a m p . They a l l c l o s e d t h a t down a n d h a d j u s t t h e o n e c a n n e r y g o i n g . They had Canoe Pass g o i n g , t h e B r u n s w i c k . T h a t c l o s e d down a n d a l l the f i s h caught from t h e i r f i s h e r m e n were coming t o I m p e r i a l t h e n y o u know. O t h e r c o m p a n i e s d i d t h e same t h i n g . They got f a s t e r machines I suppose. No m o r e h a n d w o r k . When t h e y were hand w o r k i n g y o u know, t h e y h a d t o have a l o t o f c a n n e r i e s t o p u t up t h e c a n n e d s a l m o n . Quite interesting t o s e e t h e m g u y s w o r k i n g b e f o r e t h e m a c h i n i n g came o n . Y o u g o t t a be handy w i t h a b u t c h e r k n i f e . M e n w e r e t h e o n e s who h e a d a n d g u t t h e f i s h y o u k n o w . Women f o l k s t h e y w a s h e d , d o t h e c a n n i n g — can f i l l i n g I guess. G r a n n y d i d q u i t e a b i t o f t h a t y o u know. Everything was h a n d w o r k , h a n d w o r k , h a n d w o r k . P i t c h i n g f i s h you had t o p i t c h / t h e m up f r o m t h e b l o o d y f i s h h o l d y o u know, up t o the deck. From t h e d e c k t h e y w e n t r i g h t up t o t h e w h a r f . We u s e d t o d o t h a t t o o . I n t h e f a l l t h a t w a s h a r d w o r k y o u know — dog salmon. I d o n ' t know where t h e y were g e t t i n g them. E v e r y now a n d t h e n a b i g l o a d w o u l d g e t t o V a n c o u v e r Cannery.  79 Question: done?  You mentioned  about making nets.  How w a s  that  T h i s w a s b e f o r e my t i m e . The o l d e r p e o p l e used t o do t h a t y o u know. I c a n ' t r e c a l l , I was r e a d i n g a b o u t i t myself. They f u r n i s h them w i t h t h e t w i n e . My g r a n d f a t h e r w a s t e l l i n g me a l l a b o u t i t a n d V i c G u e r i n ' s m o t h e r . Somet i m e s t h e y n e v e r come home a f t e r f i s h i n g s e a s o n y o u k n o w . T h e r e was c a n n e r i e s a l l o v e r t h e m a i n r i v e r . They s t a y r i g h t t h e r e and they s t a r t making n e t s . A l l n e e d l e w o r k y o u know. I d i d n ' t g e t t o f i n d o u t how much t h e y w e r e m a k i n g , b u t I g u e s s t h e y w e r e m a k i n g a l±ving o u t o f i t . They were t h e r e a l l w i n t e r making nets. When t h e y g e t t h r o u g h d o i n g t h a t , they s t a r t p u t t i n g on t h e l i n e s f o r t h e f i s h e r m a n . I n most c a s e s , t h e y were w o r k i n g by day — t h e f i s h e r m e n y o u know — a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t I l e a r n e d f r o m my g r a n d f a t h e r a n d t h e o l d guy I u s e d t o f i s h w i t h . T h e y ' d g i v e t h e m $3 a d a y e a c h . Two men t o a c r e w , t h a t ' s $6 a d a y . F o r a w h i l e t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g i tcheaper than t h a t . I didn't get to find out. B u t my g r a n d f a t h e r s a i d t h e m o s t t h e y g o t b e f o r e t h e y s t a r t e d c o n t r a c t i n g b y p i e c e w a s $3 a d a y . T h e y f u r n i s h e d t h e i r n e t a n d b o a t a n d t h e y d i d t h a t , l i v i n g was s o damn c h e a p i n t h e m days I guess. W e l l , y o u had t o work t o s u r v i v e I guess. . T h e y d i d a l o t o f h a n d made n e t s . They were p a i d by t h e p o u n d a c c o r d i n g t o my g r a n d f a t h e r — so much f o r e a c h p o u n d o f t w i n e y o u m a t c h e d i n t o a n e t . I d o n ' t k n o w how much t h e y w e r e m a k i n g . Some o f t h e m p r e t t y f a s t ; some o f t h e m d i d w e l l a c c o r d i n g t o my g r a n d f a t h e r , some d i d n ' t . They s a y V i c G u e r i n ' s m o t h e r was f a s t m a k i n g n e t s . That's about t h e t a i l e n d o f n e t m a k i n g t h e n y o u know. Started getting f a c t o r y made n e t s s h i p p e d h e r e t h e n . I t r i e d once j u s t f o r the fun o f i t . I d i d n ' t make a v e r y l o n g n e t , a b o u t t h i r t y f a t h o m s w a s e n o u g h f o r me. My h a n d s w e r e a l l c u t u p . I u s e d t o d o t h a t j u s t f o r t h e f u n o f i t i n my s p a r e t i m e fishing. Mike Wilson d i d t h a t too, once. I used t o help h i m when I was v i s i t i n g o v e r t h e r e . S h o u l d have h a d a m o v i e camera t h e way t h i n g s were g o i n g i n them d a y s y o u know. How t h e p e o p l e f i s h e d y o u k n o w , sailed. I u s e d t o go down t o t h e w h a r f a n d w a t c h t h e m when t h e y ' d s a i l u p . When i t w a s b l o w i n g s a y l i k e i t i s t o d a y , i t was a good d a y f o r t h e f i s h e r m e n . P i c k up a n d s a i l u p , p i c k u p a n d s a i l u p . When t h e r e ' s n o w i n d y o u ' r e d o n e . You c o u l d s e e a w h o l e b u n c h o f b l o o d y m a s t s coming up when t h e y g e t t o w e d up y o u know. The t u g b o a t w o u l d p i c k them up down t h e m o u t h o f t h e r i v e r a n d t o w them up. Question:  D i d y o u h a v e a w h a r f down h e r e  —  a t Musqueam?  No, C e l t i c was t h e n e a r e s t p l a c e o v e r h e r e , y o u know. These people used t o b r i n g t h e i r boats i n t o t h e slough here, before they diverted the slough there. Yeah, boats a l l i n the s l o u g h , t i e d up. I u s e d t o b r i n g my b o a t home e v e r y year f o rawhile, t i l l I started losing things out of i t . I  80 kept i t i n Steveston after. Some o f t h e m g u y s a r e c r a z y you know, u n t i e t h e r o p e , s t e a l t h e r o p e . Your boat i s dangling there. P r e t t y soon i t ' s on t h e bank and t i p s o v e r . M i n e t i p p e d o v e r t h r e e , f o u r t i m e s a n d I t h o u g h t i t was enough. I l e f t i t i n Steveston after. Everytime that thing t i p s over i t c o s t s you a couple hundred d o l l a r s t o get going you know. B a t t e r i e s and e v e r y t h i n g g e t r u i n e d . There were a l o t o f b o a t s f o r a w h i l e down t h e r e . S a i l b o a t s w h e n I was a k i d , y o u k n o w . I u s e d t o see them t i e d around the f l a t s here, anchored f o r the w i n t e r a f t e r they get through f i s h i n g . E a c h f a m i l y had one o r two or three boats. T h a t ' s a l l t h e y d i d when t h e y w e r e f i s h i n g . W e l l , they s t a r t e d t o l o g towards the end, t h a t ' s j u s t about t h e t i m e I was g o i n g t o s c h o o l . They s t a r t e d t o l o g around the reserve f o r awhile. T h i n g s s t a r t e d t o p i c k up f o r t h e m , I guess. J o h n Cook d i d w e l l t h e r e , one o p e n i n g i n P o r t K e l l s . J o h n Cook g o t f i v e - s i x h u n d r e d one o p e n i n g . Willard... I u s e d t o go i n t o P o r t K e l l s . I was t h e f i r s t one s t a r t e d w i t h them K a t z i e boys. P r e t t y s o o n e v e r y b o d y s t a r t e d t o go up there. T h a t ' s a f u n n y p l a c e y o u k n o w , t h e m g u y s up t h e r e i n Port K e l l s Slough. E v e r y b o d y had a s p o t . T h e y ' d go a n d put t h e i r buoys a l l a l o n g t h e r e on t h e s i d e t h e r e . They put t h e i r buoy o r f l a g t h e r e , t h a t ' s h i s spot. T h e n h e g o e s home and comes o u t on t h e o p e n i n g Monday m o r n i n g . Yau can't interfere with that. T h e y g e t mad a t y o u i f y o u ' r e t h e r e . I d i d n ' t k n o w t h a t u n t i l J o e P i e r r e t o l d me y o u k n o w . He was t h e o n e who b r o u g h t me t h e r e . I had t o t h r o w b e h i n d him — I d i d n ' t h a v e no s p o t , I u s e d t o j u s t g o u p t h e r e . I did pretty well there for awhile. When I q u i t I s t a r t e d f i s h i n g Douglas I s l a n d . Too much t r o u b l e t h e r e ( P o r t K e l l s ) c l a i m i n g your spot. Then a f t e r the f i r s t d r i f t w e l l i t ' s f r e e , you can throw anywhere a t a l l . B u t t h e y go and c l a i m a s p o t f o r t h e o p e n i n g Monday m o r n i n g on t h e day before. P u t t h e i r b u o y t h e r e o n a boom o r w h e r e v e r t h e y ' r e g o i n g t o s t a r t from. You c a n ' t interfere. W e l l , I remember J o h n and W i l l a r d d o i n g good t h e r e one o p e n i n g . The m o s t I g o t o u t o f t h e r e was a b o u t two hundred i n Port K e l l s Slough. But you f i s h c o n t i n u o u s l y the w h o l e d a y a n d i t b u i l d s up q u i t e a b i t . A f t e r t h e d a y ' s o v e r w e l l , t h e r e ' s no m o r e . O n c e I r e m e m b e r we s t o o d u p — t h a t ' s when t h e J a p a n e s e f i r s t come b a c k I g u e s s , t h e r e was a f e w J a p a n e s e b o a t s up D o u g l a s I s l a n d — i t was g o o d f o r about three, four days. T h e w h o l e w e e k we w e r e t h e r e a n y w a y s .  81 Only Grandfather own.  The  and to  was  able  sites,  know a b o u t  good  bad  as w e l l  as  fish  and  must not  learned  and  be  helped  years,  such  Ed  learned  life  style,  well  with  new  areas,  and  methods  made i t h i s  was and  business  tides.  He earnings,  fishing. dependence  d e s c r i b e s how  They gained  his  aboriginal  information to o r who  on  a successful  learning  family involvement  cooperate  He  on  t h a t he  strikes,  w i t h work. to  t o be  movements, and  overlooked.  learned  family.  fish  related  e m p h a s i s on  experience,  necessary  experimenting  cycles,  before  recording fairly  I t i s also evident  fishing  in  skill  were r e q u i r e d  i n h i s emphasis  fishing  The  the  and  i n h i s mind  and  questions  t o c a r r y the  i s apparent  equipment.  carries  direct  knowledge  fisherman fishing  a few  on  children  confidence  and  assume r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s  from h i s grand  uncle,  and  taught  within  his  sons  turn. The  with  fishing  grounds.  are  working  living  seen i n i n c i d e n t s both  Changes i n the  specifically  and  mechanization  i n canneries  advances i n boats  investment,  changes i n maintenance or  original  fisheries  Native A  fishermen  involvement  be  and  leading to  technology  and  non-Indian  competitors  i n the  fishing  also,  a decrease  equipment r e q u i r i n g operation.  fishing  size  attributed  These altered  and with  efficiency ready  of boats.  capital  factors the  industry.  t o advances i n  and  cannery  Increased  have been  in  greater  r e d u c t i o n i n t h e number o f w o r k e r s  directly  the  o f f the  c o n t r o l s have s i g n i f i c a n t l y  significant can  and  i n d u s t r y have been mentioned  number, and  along with  on  conditions associated  better  82 suited and  t o cope w i t h  equipping  travel  fish  increased boats  expenses i n owning,  of ever  t o t h e more p r o d u c t i v e  known a r e a s have been c l o s e d  increasing size,  fishing  through The  o v e r f i s h i n g and capacity  has become e v i d e n t . and  adaptiveness  to  local,  well  Many  fishermen  by  o r have been d e p l e t e d  tone  f o r hard work  of  and i t s rewards  of the text suggests s e l f  t o changing s o c i a l  s e n s e o f humor i s a l s o  and a l s o  industry.  or necessity The  areas.  o f f to the Native  Department o f F i s h e r i e s r e g u l a t i o n s fish  operating,  revealed  confidence  and economic c o n d i t i o n s .  here,  and i n s e v e r a l  His  places  throughout the t e x t . By quite  the end o f t h i s  drained  continuation volume  of ideas.  hending,  Neither  o r summation.  of data  session both  We  information  was  exhausted.  Some m e a n s o f o r d e r i n g  G r a n d f a t h e r was had  left  out pertinent  constructively have  s a t down t o g e t h e r  tape  recording  should to  T h e r e was  was  make n o t e s  specific  Grandfather's  difficulty  included recall  to feel  information.  be  compre-  temporarily  information  given  to  In h i s opinion  He k n e w to  we  should  outline  before  Grandfather himself  states  t o remember f a c t s and d e t a i l s when he  incidents, events,  and  outcomes.  had  continuing.  frustrated.  and w r i t t e n an a n n o t a t e d  the  where  H i s r e a c t i o n was  t h e method.  initiated.  or  seemed  and a s s e s s i n g  any t h o u g h t c o u l d beginning  criticize  concepts f o r  h a d become o v e r w h e l m e d b y  and remembering, what had been  t o be e s t a b l i s h e d b e f o r e  temporarily  o f us h a d d e f i n i t e  and i t s d i v e r s i t y .  lacking.  o f us were  he  refers  he  83  As t h e t a p e  transcripts  tape were p r e s e n t e d t o both what they had accomplished transcribing.  I thought  the data over possibly  Discussion produced  Listings  sidered  related  i n referring  data.  I t was  integral to  be  by  year  up.  l  '  i n verifying  o f them t o o f f e r  of Grandfather's First,  n o t i n t e n d e d t o be  of both were  and  information. advisor  T h i s would  a complete  I  con-  be an a i d t o  and c l a r i f y  related  i n d e x o r t o be  The second  device  an proved  A detailed  g r a n d p a r e n t s ' w o r k h i s t o r y was closely  was  year drawn  analyzed with a l l relevant  i n a b b r e v i a t e d form  (See Work H i s t o r y  t o the pre-  Chronologies,  Appendices  V  one t a p e  chronology  had been c o l l e c t e d  dates  of children  by  o f c o u r s e was  so f a r . referring  On  Grandfather's which  chronology  w i t h no documentation obviously  would  matically  as p o s s i b l e  sequences.  were i m m e d i a t e l y  be t o f i l l  these  since  h e r s , I began f i l l i n g  recorded  had areas w i t h f a i r l y  began t o form  limited  to the l i s t  Musqueam Band members, and a p r e v i o u s l y  mation  additional  to locate  and  them t o r e a d  s u g g e s t i o n s w i t h my  analysis.  data transferred  chronologies.  them  transcription,  i n completing the research.  transcripts  each  an i n d e x o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t s  back t o the t e x t s  Grandmother's  birth  a l s o encourage  t o t h e r e s e a r c h aims.  chronology  liminary  i n o r d e r t o show  o f the content were r e f e r e n c e s which  a key f a c t o r  The  would  me  part of the written  work h i s t o r y  A  both  copies of  i n r e c o r d i n g and I i n i n t e r v i e w i n g  this  two s o l u t i o n s .  begun.  me  grandparents,  and so a s s i s t  encourage  became a v a i l a b l e ,  Areas  of  genealogy.  of several  inforyears  The n e x t  information blanks  through questioning.  i n  registered  complete  apparent.  only  as  stage  system-  84 3.5  Tape  27  Rose May  Sparrow 29,  1975  G r a n d m o t h e r was interview she  had  i f she  from Ed, a  c o u l d be  done i n h e r  directives her  early  chronology and  life,  a few  prepared or the  were g i v e n , except life  our method had  tion  asked  to tell  j o b s she  that  been adapted  With  I i n t e n d e d t o add  was  given t o Grandmother's uneasiness  for  specific  and  had. she  to her  on the  specific  In preparing for this  information,  had  Building  again.  the  following  more a b o u t  I suggested  t o the present.  s e t up,  detail.  days b e f o r e  No  work  other  t r y remembering  experience with framework events,  interview,  about  the  of  descrip-  consideration  direct questioning  awareness  of the  tape  recorder. G r a n d m o t h e r was we  begin  as  recorder,  soon as  she  prepared  I arrived.  started working  While on  an  knitting  through  locating  the microphone d i f f i c u l t .  questions  most o f the  for this  are not w e l l  made b e f o r e  the  interview,  Grandmother had going  to t e l l ,  recording telling, was  a  trying  As  established  to relate  Her  t o areas  I had  and  position  a result,  asked  f o r the  tape  continued  of  from  the notes  transcript.  i n h e r mind what she  was  on h e r  the  own.  Through  the q u e s t i o n i n g t o what she data.  Once  f o r myself before the  was  she  q u e s t i o n i n g became more s p e c i f i c  outlined  that  made  a few  have been taken  t o m a i n t a i n some o r d e r i n h e r  more r e l a x e d ,  and  preparing the  Indian sweater  with re-wording  I l e t her proceed  I attempted  little  relevant  so  I was  interview.  r e c o r d e d and  session,  and  interview.  85  It by  the  seems a p a r t  UBCIC^  curious  of her  decision to  to determine her  w o u l d be  f o r h e r s e l f and  thoughts  on  this  matter  specific and  of  time  time.  Native while  as w e l l ,  might enable  and  this  no  been i n f l u e n c e d  government funding. what she  people.  She  the  I  was  impact  her  work h i s t o r y  data.  time,  was  questioning  R e c a l l o f where she  was  living  an  this  felt  expressed  providing her  applied at  residence.,  Rationales  accept  r e a c t i o n s and  Another technique about p l a c e s  commentary had  a s s o c i a t i o n between  type  f o r m o v i n g m i g h t p o s s i b l y be  i n t u r n m i g h t be  associated with  of  at  a  work  determined jobs  and  work. A brief by  dialogue  a newspaper a r t i c l e  Musqueam. data.  I had  I t was  no  photo of  reference  dialogue  the  living  i t produced was  the  I thought  they  Ed  in  i t would  was  used  was an  photo  a response with  recorded.  c o n d i t i o n s as  grandparents  o l d Marpole,  of using  shown o n l y b e c a u s e Since  about  and  intention  interesting.  facts  between both  to  prompted  area  near  collecting be  historical  prompted t o  recall  be.  UBCIC — U n i o n o f B. C. I n d i a n C h i e f s a n d reached a g r e e m e n t a t i t s g e n e r a l a s s e m b l y i n l a t e A p r i l , 1975 n o t t o a c c e p t any f u r t h e r g o v e r n m e n t f u n d i n g and a d v i s e d a l l I n d i a n p e o p l e i n B. C. t o f o l l o w s u i t u n t i l t h e q u e s t i o n o f A b o r i g i n a l Land Claims i s r e s o l v e d . 5  86 G r a n d m o t h e r was a l w a y s during  interview  sessions,  To  ease  at  t i m e s , o r used  cases  her apprehension  the quality On t h i s  microphone, not at  aware o f t h e t a p e  a n d was a t t i m e s  o f t h e r e c o r d i n g s was  one t a p e  i nparticular,  Variations  The b e s t  m i c r o p h o n e was u s e d ,  when she c o n t r o l l e d t h e of statements  i n volume and c l a r i t y o f t h e t a p e more after  r e c o r d i n g r e s u l t s were relying  I n both  affected.  few words  O c c a s i o n a l l y , q u e s t i o n s were r e p e a t e d  byi t .  the microphone  t h e r e c o r d e r w i t h o u t a microphone.  t i m e s , making t r a n s c r i p t i o n  been g i v e n .  inhibited  I allowed her t o control  questions or the f i r s t  recorded.  recorder  on t h e b u i l t  were  also  were noted  difficult.  the statement had o b t a i n e d when  no  i n microphone o f the  machine. When t r a n s c r i p t i o n was t r a n s f e r r e d  t o Rose's  T h i s was d i f f i c u l t some a r e a s to time. locate  sequences  chronology  because o f a lack  I pencilled  i n a sequence  A s s i s t a n c e from  information.  o f t h e t a p e s was c o m p l e t e d , i n f o r m a t i o n as a c c u r a t e l y of s p e c i f i c  as p o s s i b l e .  dates.  of events without reference  G r a n d m o t h e r was r e q u i r e d  to correctly  B u t even w i t h o u t t h e d a t e s , w r i t i n g  s h o w e d up a r e a s w h e r e  In  further  d e t a i l was  of the  required.  87  Tape 27 Recorded:  May 29, 1975 Mrs. Rose Sparrow EARLY LIFE HISTORY, WORK HISTORY  T h i s i s a l l my l i f e h i s t o r y I'm going t o t e l l now. When I was a l i t t l e g i r l about t h r e e y e a r s o l d , my mother d i e d . And um, my g r e a t grandparents took over, r a i s e d me. They were a l l o f seventy o r e i g h t y y e a r s o l d then. Them days the b i d people never g o t no h e l p from t h e government. My g r e a t grandmother was about seventy o r e i g h t y , she s t i l l went t o town and washed c l o t h e s f o r t h e white people f o r her l i v i n g . That way she kept us a l i v e . There was no h e l p from the government whatever f o r o l d age people o r orphan children. I was an orphan. My mother d i e d b u t my f a t h e r r e m a r r i e d , and I was l e f t w i t h my g r e a t grandparents, f o r them t o keep. We had hard t i m e s . Most o f t h e times we j u s t b a r e l y get by by what she earns working o u t every day. My g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r , he goes on t h e canoe t o s e t n e t t o c a t c h salmon. I used t o go a l o n g , I q u i t e remember. He used t o have a l i t t l e p l a c e f o r me i n t h e bow i n t h e canoe and I'd l a y t h e r e and f a l l a s l e e p i n t h a t canoe. Whatever he d i d he took me a l o n g i n t h i s canoe. By t h e evening he goes p i c k up h i s net, see i f t h e r e ' s any f i s h t h e r e and takes i t home. I never knew, l i k e o t h e r k i d s used t o go i n t h e house and t h e meal would be prepared f o r them. 'Cause my granny was o u t working we'd j u s t grab whatever we c o u l d grab on t h e t a b l e and e a t . That's t h e l i f e I went through. And as I was growing up, oh, I was about, oh, n i n e o r t e n y e a r s o l d b e f o r e somebody come along and asked the o l d people why I wasn't i n s c h o o l . But we were f a r o u t i n t h e ranch home t h a t o l d people d i d n ' t know any b e t t e r what t o do about i t , you know. So they wanted t o take me t o M i s s i o n . But t h e o l d people wouldn't p a r t w i t h me because they r a i s e d me and they d i d n ' t want t o l e t go. So I d i d n ' t g e t t o go t o s c h o o l . When they b u i l t a s c h o o l i n C h i l l i w a c k f o r t h e I n d i a n c h i l d r e n I was about nine o r t e n y e a r s o l d , maybe o l d e r b e f o r e I g o t t o s c h o o l . I o n l y reached Grade Three and t h e o l d people d i d n ' t want me t o go back t o s c h o o l . They d i d n ' t believe i n i t . They s a i d g i r l s go t o s c h o o l and they never l e a r n n o t h i n g but bad t h i n g s . So t h a t ' s as f a r as I g o t . I f o l l o w e d o t h e r women t h a t had c h i l d r e n . My aunt, she had girls. We a l l went t o s c h o o l t o g e t h e r , b u t seems l i k e we a l l  graduated o u r s e l v e s t o g e t h e r ! She got t o t a k i n g us out d i g g i n g r o o t s , whatever she thought was b e s t . Taught us t o s p l i t r o o t s and make b a s k e t s . I t o l d t h a t b e f o r e . Whatever she d i d , p i c k b e r r i e s , we were t h e r e . (She) taught us how t o p r e s e r v e , how t o p i c k and p r e s e r v e our b e r r i e s . E v e r y t h i n g l i k e t h a t , and taught us how t o work i n the farm. When we were able t o work, we used t o walk t o t h i s farmer and work f o r maybe t e n cents a day o r t e n cents an hour, I don't know what i t was. Anyways i t was very cheap. We d i d n ' t even know i f we got p a i d o r not. But, t h a t ' s t h e l i f e I went through. There was no way you c o u l d g e t h e l p from anywhere. No, kept on l i k e t h a t you know. When my granny would g e t home, then she managed t o g e t h o l d o f wool somehow and she'd s p i n t h e wool. She used t o g e t me t o c a r d i t f o r her. I ' d c a r d wool t i l l I got t i r e d , and q u i t . Then she'd s p i n the wool, then she'd make socks. Then she taught me how t o k n i t . So I t r i e d k n i t t i n g , then I managed t o l e a r n from h e r how t o knit. Q u e s t i o n;  Was t h a t a f t e r you went t o s c h o o l ?  I t was a f t e r , yeah, and b e f o r e . We used t o s i t down i n t h e evenings, you know, and they teach me how t o k n i t . I l e a r n e d how t o k n i t and make basket. That way we managed t o get what we need, c l o t h i n g or whatever i t was. W e l l , I don't t h i n k I have any more t o t e l l about t h a t . That was r e a l l y a sad s t o r y as f a r as the Indians were concerned. There was no h e l p from the government whatever. Most o f the o l d people you go see had n o t h i n g t o e a t . Not even a crumb o f bread i n the house. My granny used t o g e t home and she'd make bread o r my g r a n d f a t h e r b r i n g f i s h and my granny would c u t i t up and pass i t around t o these people t h a t had n o t h i n g t o e a t . See how bad i t was them days. The government got n o t h i n g t o brag about. They d i d n o t h i n g f o r the I n d i a n s . I t ' s j u s t now the people g e t t i n g w e l f a r e . But how are they g e t t i n g t h a t ? Through t a x money. That's how they got t h i s w e l f a r e . But b e f o r e t h a t t h e government wouldn't s t e p i n and h e l p . But they s t e a l the lands from the p e o p l e . That's a l l they d i d . There was l a n d r i g h t through, an I n d i a n Reserve where my mother comes from, they c a l l i t Shwayhala. The r a i l r o a d cuts r i g h t through. I wonder i f t h e Indians got something f o r t h a t . The CNR went through t h a t l a n d . I don't t h i n k t h e Indians — and=they never ask p e r m i s s i o n o r n o t h i n g . The o l d c h i e f was t o o o l d , I don't t h i n k he knew any b e t t e r . They j u s t c u t through t h e l a n d and t h a t was i t . Question;  Who was t h e C h i e f a t t h a t time?  C h i e f Joe from KohKwaplat. Yeah, t h a t ' s a l l they d i d was s t e a l from the Indians b u t never made a move t o come and see how they were l i v i n g . No way they'd come near the 7  ^Now I n d i a n Reserve 7, l i s t e d as SKwala o r S q u i - a - a l a . Now I n d i a n Reserve 6, l i s t e d as k o q u a p i l t o r Kw awkw aw ap i 11. 6  7  89  I n d i a n people — never. So t h a t ' s a l l I can remember so f a r as t h a t l i f e I went through. Hardship. Not o n l y f o r me but the o l d e r p e o p l e , and many o t h e r orphan c h i l d r e n — s t a r v i n g . Never g o t no h e l p from anybody. Question:  Could you t e l l me your g r a n d f a t h e r ' s name?  H i s I n d i a n name o r what? H i s I n d i a n name was Exwamtan., That's t h e one Eddy g o t . My g r e a t grandmother's name was K e l a s t e n a i but h e r E n g l i s h name was Mary. The o l d man was C h a r l i e K o h K a p l a t . They used t o c a l l him C h a r l i e KohK aplat. That's t h e name o f t h e r e s e r v e . f  v  w  w  w  Question:  Were you l i v i n g t h e r e (at K o h K a p l a t ) ? w  That's where I was l i v i n g . They brought me up from t h r e e y e a r s o l d t h e r e a t t h a t K o h K a p l a t Reserve, i n a l i t t l e r a n c h home. w  Question: to work?  Do you remember where your grandmother would go o u t  She went t o work, oh, she had t o walk f o r about two, t h r e e m i l e s from the house t o C h i l l i w a c k . The l i t t l e town t h e r e . But I d i d n ' t r e a l l y know, b u t she was j u s t going every day from house t o house, t h a t I remember. Question:  Do you r e c a l l anyone she worked f o r ?  The ones she worked f o r ? The o n l y one, o l d people I remember i s Mr. Jackson. H i s house i s s t i l l t h e r e , but t h e r e s t I k i n d o f f o r g o t . You know I t h i n k o f i t when I go up t h e r e and see. I s t h a t a l l ? Q u e s t i o n : (Did you l i v e i n C h i l l i w a c k when you were married?)" A f t e r I l e f t home, I g o t m a r r i e d , and I went back t o v i s i t my g r e a t grandparents because they were v e r y o l d . I got t h e r e and t h e o l d man was s i c k i n bed and t h e o l d l a d y was j u s t about g e t t i n g around. They were both t o o o l d and s i c k . So I stayed t h e r e . When I g o t t h e r e , t h e o l d l a d y , my g r e a t grandmother, she had a b i n where they used t o keep the f l o u r . And they r u n o u t o f f l o u r and e v e r y t h i n g , and t h e r e she was t r y i n g t o scrape up the f l o u r t h a t dropped, t h a t was s c a t t e r e d i n t h e bottom o f t h i s c r o c k , whatever i t was, t o make bread t o e a t . They had n o t h i n g , and nobody  On t h i s tape some q u e s t i o n s a r e not on tape o r a r e v e r y d i f f i c u l t t o hear on t h e tape — e s p e c i a l l y those i n parentheses t h e r e f o r e some a r e worded a c c o r d i n g t o my notes and q u e s t i o n s made b e f o r e t h e t a p i n g .  90 would dare go and see how they were i n t h a t r e s e r v e . Nobody, C h i e f o r anybody never bothered. They wouldn't even miss them. But they were s i c k i n bed, had n o t h i n g t o e a t . Question;  D i d you f i s h i n the r i v e r ?  Yeah, when my g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r took me we went out t o the F r a s e r R i v e r . That's where he used t o s e t n e t . And he used t o s e t sturgeon l i n e s too, and get sturgeon. He used t o get those r e a l b i g ones. That was t h e i r l i v i n g . Sometimes they'd d r y i t . They f i l l e t and d r y i t up f o r the winter. Question:  Was  any o f t h a t f i s h s o l d ?  No, they weren't allowed t o s e l l a n y t h i n g . Yeah, I used t o wonder why they weren't allowed t o s e l l any f i s h . Because i f you s e l l f i s h you go t o j a i l . But why i s i t they wouldn't come g i v e them money f o r food o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t . I wonder how the I n d i a n Department and the I n d i a n f i s h e r i e s t h i n k they'd l i v e on i f they d i d n ' t g e t any c a s h . They c o u l d n ' t buy a n y t h i n g because they weren't allowed t o s e l l any f i s h . And they were too o l d t o work. Question;  D i d you do any f i s h i n g y o u r s e l f ?  I d i d go out myself a f t e r because my husband, Ed Sparrow was up n o r t h f i s h i n g . I went up t h e r e (KohK^aplat) and stayed w i t h them when I heard they were s i c k . So I used t o go out and s e t net myself. Get on the canoe and go s e t my n e t . I used t o g e t f i s h t o e a t and b r i n g i t home. I had two c h i l d r e n then, M y r t l e and Eddy. I used t o j u s t l e a v e them home w i t h the o l d man you know, the o l d p e o p l e . That way we get f i s h t o e a t . Question; Did your g r e a t grandparents do any gardening t o r a i s e t h e i r own food? Oh yeah. As o l d as they were my g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r gardened. P l a n t p o t a t o e s , v e g e t a b l e s , e v e r y t h i n g l i k e t h a t . He used t o get h i s own wood. They wouldn't g i v e him no wood. He was so o l d , he must have been about e i g h t y or n i n e t y . He used t o go and c u t wood i n the bush. Wood t h a t ' s not too heavy t o c u t down, b i r c h wood and a l d e r . And then he'd pack i t down mind you, one a t a time, and then he'd cut i t up w i t h a l i t t l e hand saw. They wouldn't b r i n g o l d people wood because they had no money. You g o t t a buy the wood b e f o r e you g e t i t . But he d i d t h a t a l l h i s l i f e t i l l he was b a r e l y moving around. Ques tlon; :  Were you the o n l y one who  was  h e l p i n g them?  W e l l , I was the o n l y one t h a t got t h e r e and stayed w i t h them towards the end, yeah. Because they brought me up, so me and Dad (Ed Sparrow) when he got home he went up  and stayed up. We stayed up t h e r e w i t h them about seven y e a r s t i l l my g r e a t grandmother d i e d , and then my g r e a t grandfather died a f t e r . Question:  Do you remember when i t was they  91  died?  I don't remember t h e d a t e s . I t h i n k about t h a t time M y r t l e must have been about two y e a r s and she's f i f t y - s i x o r something. That's a l o n g time ago. M y r t l e must have been about two o r t h r e e , t h r e e y e a r s o l d I'd say. Yeah, t h a t ' s a l o n g time ago. Question: Were you expected a t school?  t o do any work w h i l e you were  We never was taught how t o do any k i n d o f homework o r cooking o r anything when we were i n s c h o o l . Nothing a t a l l , j u s t r e a d i n g and a r i t h m e t i c , yeah t h a t was a l l . Question: (Did you o r your g r e a t grandparents do any gardening w h i l e you were up a t C h i l l i w a c k ? ) They made t h e i r own gardens, had e v e r y t h i n g t o e a t as f a r as they were concerned about gardening. But what l i t t l e she (great grandmother) earned she bought l a r d o r t e a or sugar and a l l t h a t you know, and c o f f e e and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . That's about a l l we c o u l d a f f o r d t o buy, n o t h i n g e l s e . Question:  Was c l o t h i n g bought w i t h those  earnings?  No, we c o u l d n ' t even a f f o r d t o buy c l o t h e s . She used t o g e t c l o t h i n g from t h e white people she was working for. I d i d n ' t know what i t was t o wear new shoes o r a new d r e s s , n o t h i n g l i k e t h a t . We used t o g e t t h e c l o t h i n g from the white people. They used t o g i v e i t t o her, t h e people she worked f o r g i v e her c l o t h i n g f o r her and h e r husband. Anything they d i d n ' t l i k e they'd g i v e i t t o her. That's how we were c l o t h e d . We c o u l d n ' t buy i t no way. Sometimes I used t o wear shoes t e n times b i g g e r than my f e e t . Anything we c o u l d g e t a h o l d o f you know. That's how poor t h e Indians were. Not o n l y us, t h e whole v a l l e y up t h e r e g e t used c l o t h i n g from t h e white people f o r t h e i r c h i l d r e n t o go t o s c h o o l . They used t o make baskets, the mothers, and t r a d e i n f o r c l o t h e s f o r t h e i r c h i l d r e n so they'd have c l o t h e s t o go t o s c h o o l i n t h e day s c h o o l they had t h e r e . Question: Can you r e c a l l where the houses you have l i v e d i n are located? A f t e r we were married we l i v e d here i n Musqueam. Then we went back home, we went t o C h i l l i w a c k . I used t o c a l l i t my home y e t you know. So we stayed t h e r e , t h a t ' s the time I was t e l l i n g you about, seven y e a r s , huh, Dad (Ed Sparrow) we stayed up there?> 'Cause t h a t ' s t h e o n l y p l a c e he g o t a j o b . There's no j o b here. T h i s p l a c e was a r e a l l y  92  bad place. You couldn't get work anywhere! The people here, just whoever i s w i l l i n g to cut cord wood, they're the only ones that made a l i t t l e money f o r t h e i r l i v i n g here. But he went up Chilliwack and he got on a logging camp. That's how we stayed up there. And f o r seven years then we came back here again to l i v e . We've been back and forth camping a l l over. Fishing grounds where he was f i s h i n g . In Brunswick Cannery, we were there j u s t below Ladner, we were there I don't know how many years. But we come home i n the winter. And then we got to Canoe Pass, and we stayed there too. And from there B. C. Packers b u i l t him a l i t t l e shack outside at Westham Island. The B. C. Packers b u i l t him (Ed Sparrow) that shack outside the dyke there behind Mike's (Mike Wilson) place. That was b u i l t for us, so we stayed there for I don't know how many years. But we used to come home i n the winter, but during the f i s h i n g season we'd stay there because that was the handiest place for him to f i s h . Question: What kinds of work were you able to f i n d at Chilliwack? Me, well r e a l l y I didn't do much. After I had my children I couldn't leave them. There was no work but weeding i n the gardens you know. I was picking strawberries there that's a l l . But I r e a l l y j u s t stayed home, looked a f t e r my children and made baskets while I was home and cook for him. (Ed) Question: that?  Were you c o l l e c t i n g cascara bark or anything l i k e  Not here (Musqueam), no, no. Up Chilliwack he did that for awhile. We used to go out, a l l of us. Even my great grandparents; that's the only way they made t h e i r l i v i n g too was to go pick cascara bark. They were o l d , they used to just drag around and they go peel t h i s . The o l d man used to knock i t down, they pack i t home, dry i t and s e l l i t . Question: Did you do that as well while you were staying at Chilliwack? Oh yeah, we went and do the same me and Dad and we a l l j u s t helped one another. That's the only way they made the money, l i t t l e spending money. Not much. I f you got $ 5 , boy, you thought you were r i c h them days. Yeah, because you never see money coming i n anywhere. Indians never had no jobs. They wouldn't give them no job! No way! The white people so prejudiced they wouldn't even look at you i f you try to go look for a job. That's the way they were. They're s t i l l the same I think. Question:  Where d i d you s e l l the bark?  A w h o l e s a l e r used t o buy i t i n town somewhere. used t o send i t t o Vancouver, I guess.  They  93  Question; I n C h i l l i w a c k (KohK aplat) d i d you and Ed l i v e w i t h your g r e a t grandparents? w  Oh yeah, we had t o , yeah. We l i v e d w i t h them because we j u s t went up t h e r e t o s t a y w i t h them t o h e l p them o u t a l i t t l e bit. But we used t o move t o a l i t t l e l o g g i n g camp. When they were s t r o n g y e t , when they were a b l e t o look a f t e r themselves, g e t wood i n summer we used t o move t o a l i t t l e l o g g i n g camp. They used t o have shacks t h e r e f o r t h e i r people i n Queens I s l a n d they c a l l i t . I t ' s an i s l a n d way o u t a c r o s s t h e r i v e r . They had shacks f o r a l l t h e working men t h e r e , I n d i a n s , and they take t h e i r f a m i l i e s and they l i v e t h e r e d u r i n g t h e summer you know. We used t o go l i v e t h e r e , l i v e d i n shacks t h e r e t o o . Question; Was t h e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t you c o u l d do t h e r e i n the l o g g i n g camp? W e l l , i t ' s where we used t o d i g r o o t s . A l l t h e women, not o n l y me go o u t and d i g r o o t s and come down and s p l i t them. A l l s i t o u t s i d e and make b a s k e t s . Everyone d i d t h a t . And I was s a y i n g t h a t ' s t h e o n l y way they got t h e i r c l o t h i n g f o r themselves and t h e i r c h i l d r e n . Question:  D i d you s e l l any o f t h e baskets you made?  Oh yeah, we t r a d e i t i n f o r c l o t h e s . We never ask c a s h . Some way o r another we d i d n ' t . I don't know i f we were a f r a i d t o ask f o r money o r what. But we j u s t ask f o r c l o t h e s because we needed them, b a d l y . We c o u l d n ' t a f f o r d t o buy i t from a s t o r e , no way. Question: there?)  (Did you work up a t Skeena w h i l e Ed was f i s h i n g  M y r t l e i s t h e o l d e s t , and she must have been about twelve y e a r s o l d . Then Dad used t o go up Skeena t o f i s h , so I thought I b e t t e r go a l o n g . He d i d n ' t want me t o go but I wanted t o go. And I t h i n k I had W i l l a r d , Johnny, yeah and Myrtle. I had t h r e e c h i l d r e n . So M y r t l e babysit and I worked i n t h e cannery. Prom then on we went up every y e a r . T r a v e l on t h e gas boat t o g e t t o Skeena from here. And then I worked and M y r t l e b a b y s i t you know. But L y l e was born up t h e r e a t Skeena R i v e r . I worked r i g h t up t o t h e l a s t hour and went home. And t h a t n i g h t L y l e was born, i n Skeena R i v e r . He was born j u s t b e f o r e 12:00 and I l e f t work, oh about 8:00 I guess. I used t o work overtime t h e r e . I went home about t h a t time and he was born b e f o r e 12:00. I s t a y e d home j u s t a week, and I went back t o work a g a i n . M y r t l e b a b y s i t f o r L y l e when he was a l i t t l e baby. A l l I had t o do was bathe him i n the morning. She took over l o o k i n g a f t e r him. Change him,  94 g i v e him b o t t l e — no, I used t o r u n home and feed him, b r e a s t f e d . They used t o a l l o w me t o do t h a t because we weren't f a r from t h e cannery. D i d t h a t f o r y e a r s . Most o f my k i d s were born here. Two were born i n C h i l l i w a c k . M y r t l e and Ronny born up C h i l l i w a c k , your Dad. But I wasn't working y e t a t t h a t time. But t h e r e s t o f t h e k i d s were a l l born a t Musqueam, i n t h e h o s p i t a l . M y r t l e was born a t home, L y l e was born i n a cannery shack. Ronny was born a t h o s p i t a l . Oh, W i l l a r d was born a t home, w i l l a r d was born i n C h i l l i w a c k . I was up t h e r e , Dad went up Skeena R i v e r and I s t a y e d w i t h my g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r . He was alone then. That's when my g r e a t grandmother d i e d so I s t a y e d up t h e r e w i t h him and W i l l a r d was born up t h e r e . Not i n a h o s p i t a l b u t a t home. Question;  What j o b s d i d you do i n the cannery a t Skeena?  Worked i n t h e cannery washing salmon. they make us hand f i l l , e v e r y t h i n g l i k e t h a t .  Sometimes  Question; Was anyone e l s e from Musqueam working up t h e r e i n cannery? Not t o o much. I t was t h e Wilsons from Ladner. Emma and Mike, a l l t h e Wilsons used t o go up t h e r e . H a r d l y anybody from here, they d i d n ' t go up. Q u e s t i o n:  D i d you work i n c a n n e r i e s a t o t h e r p l a c e s ?  When we q u i t going up Skeena I s t a r t e d i n I m p e r i a l i n S t e v e s t o n , and I worked seventeen y e a r s t h e r e a t t h e Imperial plant. Question:  You stayed t h e r e , d i d you?  Yeah, stayed t h e r e . Seventeen y e a r s , I was r e t i r e d when I was s i x t y - s i x . K i n d o f cheated on my age! I was a l l around t h e r e . I was e x p e r i e n c e d — even t o t h e l a s t year they had me working on t h e l i n e c h e c k i n g t h e bad cans and the good cans you know. Can used t o come through t h e l i n e t h e r e , through the machine g e t t i n g , p u t l i d s on. And we p i c k them up b e f o r e they p u t t h e l i d s on. There used t o be two hundred cans a minute and I had t o watch t h a t . Four o f us, we p i c k i t and we f i l l i t and p i c k i t and we put i t back. I was s t i l l on t h a t on my l a s t y e a r , I was s i x t y - s i x y e a r s old. You had t o be f a s t and know how t o handle t h e f i s h . Question:  You d i d q u i t e a few d i f f e r e n t jobs then?  Oh e v e r y t h i n g . I even worked i n the f r e s h f i s h f o r awhile o f f and on. And d u r i n g t h e w i n t e r we d i d tuna a l l w i n t e r from September f i f t e e n t h up t i l l May, we d i d t h e tuna a l l w i n t e r . But i n between t h a t i s when we used t o g e t  95 o y s t e r s and clams t o do t o o . They used t o d i v i d e us up, experienced ones w i t h your non-experienced. That's the o n l y way they c o u l d do the work t h e r e , clams and e v e r y t h i n g , d i v i d e the women up. Question;  Did you work a l l year?  A l l y e a r round. I worked I m p e r i a l . Not r i g h t from the s t a r t , but, oh, about f i v e years I worked steady. But I never got r i c h j u s t the same. I j u s t — you know, w e l l f i s h i n g wasn't so good, i t was bad. My k i d s were going t o s c h o o l , I buy them c l o t h e s . The government d i d n ' t h e l p us. Buy the k i d s c l o t h e s t o go t o s c h o o l and a l l t h a t you know. The wages were cheap a t f i r s t . I t was j u s t the l a s t two y e a r s I worked t h a t the wages come up. Prom the f i r s t time I worked I used t o get t w e n t y - f i v e cents an hour f o r y e a r s . Then t h i r t y c e n t s , then t h i r t y - f i v e . We thought we was g e t t i n g a l o t o f money when used t o get t h i r t y - f i v e c e n t s r a i s e i n I m p e r i a l Cannery here an hour. Question:  How  l o n g d i d you work i n a day?  We worked e i g h t hours and overtime i f the f i s h , salmon summertime, salmon we worked overtime. But I don't know i f we got overtime money a t t h a t time. That was b e f o r e the union stepped i n . We got a l i t t l e more a f t e r . Question:  Where were your c h i l d r e n w h i l e you were working?  W e l l , we had t o send our k i d s t o North Vancouver t o the boarding s c h o o l . That's the boys. Every two weeks we'd take them home on the weekends. B r i n g them back a g a i n . But we f u r n i s h e d t h e i r c l o t h i n g . The government d i d n ' t h e l p . Question:  (Was  Ed working a t C h i l l i w a c k a l s o ? )  Yes, he was working but i n the w i n t e r t i m e sometimes i t gets so c o l d you can't work ( l o g g i n g ) . But he was t r a p p i n g and g e t t i n g muskrats, and he'd b r i n g i t home. I'd s k i n the muskrats and he'd go out and look a t h i s t r a p l i n e a g a i n w h i l e I'm s k i n n i n g them, p u t t i n g them on boards t o d r y . Q u e s t i o n : Was Chilliwack?  he working on the t r a p l i n e by h i m s e l f up i n  Yes, uhuh. Question:  He used t o go a l l over t r a p p i n g .  D i d you go hop p i c k i n g w h i l e you were a t C h i l l i w a c k ?  Oh yeah. We went hop p i c k i n g . I p i c k e d hops day. Even when the o l d people were a l i v e y e t we used go t o g e t h e r and camp t h e r e , s t a y t h e r e i n the camping H u l b e r t ' s camp i n S a r d i s . We used t o p i c k hops every e a r l y i n the morning. Take my baby up t h e r e t o o . And  every to a l l grounds. day from we'd  96  take a l u n c h and e a t up t h e r e , we never come home. P i c k a l l day t i l l j u s t about dark then we'd come home. That's d u r i n g the hop p i c k i n g . Question:  Was t h i s i n the l a t e summer?  In September. L a s t week o f August I t h i n k and a l l of September b e f o r e they f i n i s h I t h i n k . 'Cause they used t o a l l p i c k by hand. Questiont  Was t h i s w h i l e Ed was i n t h e l o g g i n g camps?  No, he worked i n t h e hop y a r d t o o . He used t o work i n t h e k i l n d r y i n g hops. I p i c k e d . Yeah, we used t o g e t a d o l l a r a box, b i g box maybe hundred pounds. We'd g e t a d o l l a r t o f i l l t h a t , a b i g box o f hops! Question;  D i d you go w i t h o t h e r people from C h i l l i w a c k ?  Oh, people from a l l over were t h e r e a t t h e hop y a r d . From Pemberton, a l l over t h e p l a c e . Oh, a l o t o f people from a l l over t h e p l a c e . We used t o l i v e t h e r e d u r i n g t h e hop p i c k i n g time. Question;  D i d you enjoy t h e time?  Oh yeah, good times on weekends you know. They p l a y l a h a l on t h e weekends, you know. There wasn't much d r i n k i n g them days. I t would be a strange t h i n g t o see a man drunk you know. Never see them I n d i a n s d r i n k i n g them days, never. I f you went t o a dance you never see anybody drunk i n a dance. I f they see one happen t o come i n they throw him o u t . 'Cause I n d i a n s never d r i n k t h a t much i n my days. They never d r i n k or smoke. You never see a woman w i t h a c i g a r e t t e i n h e r hand, nothing. I t would be a d i s g r a c e i f she drank, and v e r y few men d r i n k . Question:  D i d you go t o Skeena on t h e boat w i t h Ed?  W e l l , we went up by gas boat b u t when I s t a r t e d working steady they p a i d my f a r e — t h e Company d i d , B. C. Packers p a i d our f a r e t o go up t h e r e and back. That's t h e women t h a t ' s working up t h e r e . Question:  How d i d you f i n d your j o b a t Skeena?  How d i d I f i n d a j o b ? W e l l , I j u s t went up w i t h Dad, (Ed Sparrow), and t h e r e ' s so much work anybody can g e t on. Any woman who i s a b l e t o work can g e t on and work i n the cannery. I t wasn't l i k e now, you have t o go by t h e u n i o n . You have t o w a i t f o r your chance. Not them days. Soon as you g e t t h e r e they p u t you on t o work i f you went i n t h e cannery. They t e l l you come on and work. You d i d n ' t have t o w a i t another hour. Soon as you g e t t h e r e you go and see t h e boss, they t e l l you t o go t o work.  97 Question;  You worked r i g h t through t h e season?  Yeah, r i g h t through t h e season. Que s t i o n ;  The company p r o v i d e d you w i t h a house too?  Oh yeah. They had o l d shacks t h e r e . cannery had camps f o r working people. Que s t i o n :  Well, every  Which camp d i d you work a t i n Skeena?  C l a x t o n Cannery. That was t h e b i g g e s t cannery i n C l a x t o n . They had t h e Aiyansh t h e r e , K i t k a t l a , M e t l a k a t l a , P o r t Simpson, H a r t l e y Bays and G r e e n v i l l e , H a z e l t o n . A l l them people were a t t h a t cannery, and i t was t h e b i g g e s t camp t h e r e . So t h a t ' s why I know a l o t o f them people up n o r t h . Each group had t h e i r own town l i k e t h e i r own camp was separated, you know. I t ' s been l i k e t h a t I guess f o r y e a r s . They had a church t h e r e and a b i g h o t e l l i k e where the b i g businessmen s l e e p i n t h e r e you know. They had an o l d church t h e r e and t h e r e was an Indian p r i n c i p a l t h e r e a t t h a t time. He was from Nass R i v e r . What was h i s name — P i e r c e o r something l i k e t h a t . Forgot h i s f i r s t name. Anyways he was an I n d i a n preacher from Nass R i v e r . And they had a s c h o o l t h e r e 'cause some people stayed t h e r e a l l year round, look a f t e r t h e cannery you know. The Nass people and t h e Aiyansh and t h e G r e e n v i l l e , they had a v i l l a g e o f t h e i r own. And the people from H a r t l e y Bay they had a v i l l a g e o f t h e i r own; and t h e Skidegate people they were t h e r e t o o . Then us, we l i v e d next t o them, the Skidegate people. The G r e e n v i l l e people l i v e d next t o t h e Nass and K i t k a t l a people and Aiyansh and t h e G r e e n v i l l e . They're a l l t o g e t h e r t h e r e . See, t h a t was t h e b i g g e s t camp t h e r e was i n t h e cannery. B i g f i s h i n g group t h e r e from a l l over, n o r t h and south. Question; (Who was t h e r e from South, i e . around Vancouver? You mentioned Wilsons*) Oh, t h e Wilsons were t h e r e , yeah. Mike W i l s o n , Frank W i l s o n , Ivan Wilson and Andrew W i l s o n , and, oh what you c a l l — L a r r y W i l s o n . They were a l l t h e r e . Question;  Not v e r y many people from Musqueam?  No, j u s t us. We g o t i n t h e r e was through Mike. He was h i r i n g you know. He was h i r i n g f o r t h e fishermen t h e r e . He was h i r i n g f o r t h e company. He gets a l l t h e fishermen f o r the company, t h a t * s how come we got i n t h e r e . Question;  Was t h e r e anyone h i r i n g f o r t h e cannery workers?  98 No, n o . You j u s t go t h e r e and t h e y p u t y o u on t o work r i g h t t h e r e . You d i d n ' t h a v e t o w a i t t i l l y o u ' r e c a l l e d . B u t a f t e r y o u work, t h e y know. I f you say y o u ' r e g o i n g back next y e a r , w e l l t h e n they pay your f a r e see. And i f y o u went up o n y o u r own, t h e y p a y b a c k y o u r money what y o u p a i d on your f a r e . The Company d i d t h a t , b e c a u s e t h e y n e e d w o r k e r s badly. They used t o h i r e l o t s o f g i r l s from Vancouver, j u s t g a t h e r them up f r o m anywhere and b r i n g them up t h e r e , make them work. Questiont Can y o u t e l l me i n what o r d e r y o u s t a r t e d m o v i n g f r o m d i f f e r e n t p l a c e s , where G r a n d p a was w o r k i n g ? You l i v e d in Chilliwack.... We l i v e d i n C h i l l i w a c k b e c a u s e he was l o g g i n g . Moved home h e r e a f t e r he g o t i n t o f i s h i n g b u s i n e s s . When we s t a r t g o i n g up N o r t h . And a f t e r he q u i t g o i n g up N o r t h , t h e n we came down. He f i s h e d f o r I m p e r i a l C a n n e r y i n t h e F r a s e r . Question; there?  Where a b o u t s d i d y o u  l i v e when he was  fishing  R i g h t i n S t e v e s t o n , t h a t l i t t l e h o u s e I had t h e r e . T h a t was t h e B. C. P a c k e r s h o u s e . We r e n t e d t h a t f o r $20 a month. You remember t h a t h o u s e t h e r e where I u s e d t o l i v e ? Question;  D i d you  s t a r t working i n the cannery r i g h t  away?  Y e a h , I s t a r t e d w o r k i n g r i g h t away, s o o n a s I g o t t h e r e jmoved t h e r e . B e c a u s e my name was o n t h e l i s t a l l t i m e a s b e i n g w o r k i n g up S k e e n a . Soon a s I went a p p l y f o r work t h e y t o o k me. And I w o r k e d r i g h t t h r o u g h t i l l I was r e t i r e d . 'Cause I w o r k e d p r e t t y n e a r a l l my l i f e f o r t h e B. C. P a c k e r s . Question; When was i t t h a t y o u were l i v i n g a t Westham, and y o u moved t o I o n a I s l a n d and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t ? H a r r i e t i s o v e r f o r t y now and she was a b a b y when we went t o B r u n s w i c k C a n n e r y . T h e y had a camp t h e r e . The c a n n e r y was w o r k i n g y e t a t B r u n s w i c k b u t I d i d n ' t work b e c a u s e I had a b a b y . And a l l my c h i l d r e n were g o i n g t o s c h o o l , I h a d no b a b y s i t t e r . So I j u s t s t a y e d a t home. And t h a t was b e f o r e I s t a r t e d w o r k i n g , come b a c k t o I m p e r i a l y o u know. And t h e n f r o m t h e n on we went and l i v e d i n Canoe P a s s . He was f i s h i n g . And t h e n t o Westham I s l a n d . He was still f i s h i n g b u t I d i d n ' t work y e t , t i l l we come b a c k S t e v e s t o n . T h e n I went b a c k t o work. Question:  D i d y o u do a n y g a r d e n i n g o r . . . . ?  No. Question:  Were y o u m a k i n g b a s k e t s ?  99  No, because I j u s t had my f a m i l y t o l o o k a f t e r . But I used t o go p i c k b e r r i e s i n Westham I s l a n d . R a s p b e r r i e s — you know, t o make my spending money. Question;  Where d i d you f i n d  berries?  We j u s t p i c k e d f o r the farmers and they p a i d us t o p i c k f o r them. Q u e s t i o n;  D i d the c h i l d r e n h e l p too?  W e l l , they were a l l i n s c h o o l . I j u s t had the l i t t l e ones — H a r r i e t and P r i s c i l l a and G e r i , and Eddy was a baby. He was j u s t a l i t t l e t o t , you know, about e i g h t months o l d when we l i v e d a t Westham I s l a n d , Eddy was. He was j u s t a baby. G e r i must have been about t h r e e y e a r s o l d . And G e r i used t o p l a y under the house i n her l i t t l e canoe. She used to s i n g under t h e r e , she was s i n g i n g t h e r e . So I brought a l l my c h i l d r e n up a l l over the p l a c e , everywhere we went, you know. We d i d n ' t r e a l l y stay i n Musqueam 'cause t h e r e was n o t h i n g t o s t a y i n Musqueam f o r . No jobs o r a n y t h i n g . We had t o go o u t , go t o earn our l i v i n g , t o r a i s e our c h i l d r e n . A l l our never asked f o r to h e l p . We're went on w e l f a r e  l i f e we worked hard t o b r i n g our k i d s and w e l f a r e , never got a n y t h i n g from the government s t i l l l i k e t h a t as o l d as we a r e . We never not once t h a t I remember, and I never w i l l .  Q u e s t i o n : Were t h e r e any times (seasons, y e a r s , s h o r t times) when you d i d n ' t want t o work o r c o u l d n ' t work because o f I n d i a n events l i k e I n d i a n dances....? I used t o be c r y i n g , r u n n i n g behind t h i s wagon w a i t i n g to go t o o ! (to I n d i a n dances) No, they chase me back w i t h a s t i c k ! (Laughter) Then we'd get t o g e t h e r us k i d s l e f t behind. Never allowed k i d s t o go t o I n d i a n dances, never, no matter how o l d you were. So we stayed home and then we'd do our own d a n c i n g . Get t o g e t h e r and we'd have our own I n d i a n dance. We used t o have l o t s o f fun anyways. My grandaunt and (grand uncle?) get home, my, you guys must have been dancing a g a i n ! She'd f i n d l o t o f t h i n g s we're not supposed t o have, you know. Some f e a t h e r s and odds and ends. Rose: (not taped) My grandmother c o u l d speak E n g l i s h but most of the time she used t o speak Chinook t o white p e o p l e . Ed Sparrow: T h i s road was r e a l l y rough from here t o 49th, 51st, I guess, yeah. Rocks, sometimes the bloody wheel would be up t h e r e and the bloody buggy would drop a g a i n ( l a u g h t e r ) . Going up (New) Westminster, one o f the worst roads t h e r e was, I guess. I don't know how they d i d i t w i t h them bloody wagons. We used t o go up t h e r e (New Westminster) f o r e x h i b i t i o n , you know. Stay t h e r e f o r a whole bloody week. I used to t r a v e l a l o n g w i t h my grandparents s e v e r a l t i m e s . One time  100 we went up on the s a i l boat. C e l e b r a t i o n . The whole f a m i l y was (there) you know. C o u s i n s , i n - l a w s , b r o t h e r - i n - l a w s . They a l l b r i n g t h e i r own ( t e n t s ) . When they get up t h e r e they p i t c h t h e i r t e n t s up a l l around. One b i g f i r e i n the middle. They get drunk and s i n g . Rose; Ed:  The o l d p e o p l e , huh. Yeah.  Question:  They were p l a y i n g . What e x h i b i t i o n was  Grand o l d time. this?  We used t o b u i l d our t e n t s below t h a t h i l l , you know. J u s t about where — what s t o r e i s t h a t , one o f t h e b i g s t o r e s t h e r e — Eaton's, i s i t , i n New Westminster? Rose:  I guess so.  Ed: R i g h t below i t anyway. Come up the s t e p s up the h i l l . There was a b i g drop o f f l i k e t h a t one time t h e r e . Walk a l l the way up t o Queen's Park from t h e r e . We used t o anyway. The o l d e r p e o p l e , I t h i n k they got on a s t r e e t c a r . Streetcars g o i n g up t h e r e , you know. We d i d n ' t s l e e p . They d i d t h a t i n Vancouver f o r awhile but they q u i t i t a g a i n . Heck, t h e r e was no bloody excitement i n t h a t , j u s t the bloody clowns. Y e t the people would go. Some o f them stopped on the way home from hop p i c k i n g . They p i t c h e d up t h e i r t e n t s t h e r e . R i c h , about $30 - $40 from hop p i c k i n g ! (laughter) That was money i n them days, you know! Goodness sake, a sack of f l o u r was t h i r t y - f i v e c e n t s a bag. B i g sack, you know. Rose:  How  much was  the booze?  Ed: Darned i f I know. Good booze was about s i x t y - f i v e c e n t s a b o t t l e , good booze. Not bad, something l i k e t h a t , you know. Rose: They used t o be g r e a t ones t o buy those l i t t l e i s n ' t i t ? I seen a l o t o f them.  flasks,  Ed: Used t o l i v e on grub a t the f a i r g r o u n d s , some buy booze I guess on the way home (to camp). S i t around the f i r e and nobody b o t h e r s them. No p o l i c e come. They s i n g and p l a y . Good t i m e s , t h a t ' s what you c a l l a good time. Women f o l k , I d i d n ' t see h a r d l y anybody d r i n k , you know. Rose: too.  I never see any women d r i n k o r smoke.  Not much men  Ed: My granny never drank o r smoke. Paddy Johnny's grandmother, she never drank. She was w i t h her u n c l e a l l t h e time though.  101 Rose; Once i n awhile you'd see a man drunk and you'd be j u s t scared s t i f f . My granduncle was the o n l y one t h a t drank but t h a t was a f t e r us. How he s t a r t d r i n k i n g was he was a musician. He p l a y e d v i o l i n . He'd be h i r e d t o go p l a y f o r the white p e o p l e ' s dance and t h a t ' s how he l e a r n e d how t o d r i n k a t them doos.  102 During the  tape  recorder  motivated current  this  topical  During  reversed  t o become  c o u l d be a v a l u a b l e  technique  Another point  narrative style.  of e a r l i e r  recording This  preparatory The article  collecting recall,  persons  reflect  confidence  i s the great  should  and i n t e r e s t  more  are a  product  comfortable utilizing  recording  session.  to stimulate  are not unlike feelings  about t h e UBCIC p r o p o s a l s .  o n h e r own i n d e p e n d e n c e ,  living  directed questioning without  obviously important  means o f  be i n t r o d u c e d  reactions probably  allowing informants  tape  informants.  to  for  as w e l l  r e a c t i o n t o t h e newspaper photo and  t o government agencies.  these  approach  final  tell.  improvement i n  Perhaps these  attitudes pursue  with  and d i r e c t i o n ,  research  a shorter  Other devices  Grandmother's  unaware  almost  collection  that questioning i s not the only  t o motivate  other  she had  and d i s c u s s i o n , a n d a more  spontaneous  data.  completely  t h i n k i n g what t o  f o r data  c a n be f o u n d .  sessions, then  to  about.  s h e was  self  t o note  another  life  a l s o a d i v e r s i o n ; she had  Much b e t t e r f l o w  suggests  confirm  her past  keenly  the i n t e r v i e w e r and h e r i n t e r e s t  f o r i n c r e a s i n g an i n f o r m a n t ' s  feeling.  She was  E d became t h e s u b j e c t w h i l e  statements  her  was  taping of the dialogue  integrated  of  Knitting  the recording to think  her position  recording. her  than  and r e l a t e  i n o b t a i n i n g i n f o r m a t i o n r a t h e r than  This as  her opinions  issues.  the recorder.  was  as s h e had been p r e v i o u s l y .  t o express  something other  of  i n t e r v i e w G r a n d m o t h e r was n o t a s a w a r e o f  This  i n c i d e n t made  c o n d i t i o n , and  I t would have been p o i n t l e s s allowing her to relate  and r e l e v a n t f e e l i n g s .  freedom t o express  their  The n e c e s s i t y opinions  has  103 become more e v i d e n t . frustration  which  Part earlier what  recall  could lead  Events  pattern  be w h a t  useful  or facts which  i n Tape  i n verifying  events  h e r work  In the text,  t h e i r marriage  also  independence  where  and  independence  to  determine  Setting effective  and times  This work  Her  she f e l t  repetition  this  c a n be analysis.  i s signifi-  A t t h e same t i m e ,  c a n be  classed  as  felt  a simple table  as  self choice,  uncomfortable  Even w i t h o u t r e f e r e n c e i t would the  be  possible  text.  of seasonal a c t i v i t i e s  seasonal cycles.  i s  The p a t t e r n f o r  follows:  - s k i n and d r y dig roots c o l l e c t bark  pelts  summer - c a n n e r y — salmon, t r a v e l sometimes c u t w o o d , make b a s k e t s when n o t i n c a n n e r y , berries fall  -  cannery p i c k hops  winter - skin knit  and d r y p e l t s o r make b a s k e t s  (Compare w i t h Ed's  cycle,  p.  i n  their  does n o t c o n f i n e work  where n e i t h e r  f e a t u r e s from  t a p e was  spring  upon.  and compared w i t h  for chronological  obvious.  t h e spouse's  own.  up  i s based  o r r e s i d e n c e t o Ed's work  i n checking basic  Rose on t h i s  A t any r a t e ,  i s evident.  these  seen  are probably  I t i s also possible  and work were  on t h e i r  Grandmother's  c o o p e r a t i o n and a d a p t a t i o n t o s i t u a t i o n s  independence  working  22.  I wanted t o hear.  cultural  from  are repeated  can be  and  disinterest.  i s repetition  and a s s o c i a t i o n s  Relating cant.  or  i m p o r t a n t t o h e r , what h e r l i f e  the t r a n s c r i p t i o n to  increase inhibition  t o boredom  of t h e data here  tape.  i s most  Restrictions  44)  104 This necessity  transcript  demonstrates  of m o b i l i t y .  Both  Native people  generally  high  both w i t h i n  mobility  geographic are  location.  obvious  the ease  and  with which  grandparents  were i n v o l v e d the  A wide  concomitant  industriousness  labor range  factors,  early  was  Grandfather's.  collecting for  a wide  e x a m p l e , she  work, reasons Responsibility residence  of  f o r and  she  She  After  and  statements  levels  adaptability, factors  increase  an  same  activities.  In t h i s  life  when she of  of  and  work.  o r d e r and  to the type implied  t h e t a p e , d a t a was  grandparent.  Grandage  and  of  amount  where  order of p r i o r i t i e s  and  tape  work.  j o b s and  also  type  learned to  interaction,  index for analysis  i n t e r v i e w s w i t h each  a  skill  entailed  kin, social  from  of  in  has  of work, rewards  lay, outlining  and  Grandmother i s the  i n relation  transcription  the chronology  further  Her  numbers  achieved.  reference t o the b i r t h  did this  c o u l d do.  social  the work h i s t o r y  variety and  itself,  A l l these  to her early  to family  responsibilities  to  are  o f v a l u e s and  refers  made d i r e c t  children. work  range  large  i n work p a t t e r n s w i t h  have been d i s c u s s e d i n terms  mother has her  Eliciting  and  o f e x p e r i e n c e and  training.  mobility  and  force  as  Much i n f o r m a t i o n g i v e n b y as  the acceptance  i n  life.  transferred  p r e p a r a t i o n of  10 5  Chapter  4  I N T E R V I E W S WITH WORK CHRONOLOGY  4.1  Tapes  2 8 a n d 29  Ed Sparrow May  Both tapes was  i n this  to  c h r o n o l o g i e s were examined and compared b e f o r e t h e chapter were recorded.  f a r more c o m p l e t e  existed  the  chronology year  chronology Areas  facilitate  with  them.  of the comparison,  c o m p l e t i o n o f t h e work now.  A short time  time  information.  before  and i n -  histories, prior  to  of h i s year  deciding t o proceed  with recording.  c o r r e c t i o n were p o i n t e d o u t by h i m f o r n o t a t i o n  recall  during the interview.  He t h e n p r o c e e d e d  telling  w h a t he c o u l d r e c a l l ,  attempt  w a s made t o w r i t e  chronology.  possible  He s t u d i e d t h e  Q u e s t i o n i n g was  reference t o a span o f s e v e r a l years which  documented.  I t was  I t consisted of a long sheet with a  of recorded  f o r some  requiring  r e f e r e n c e s , b u t gaps  G r a n d f a t h e r was g i v e n t h e r o u g h d r a f t  t o study.  listing  chronology  a l s o p i c k e d up.  order t o f a c i l i t a t e  interview,  i n time  to f i l l  c h r o n o l o g i e s were used d i r e c t l y  this  to  listed  a d d some i n f o r m a t i o n a s a r e s u l t  In  Grandfather's  a n d more e x a c t  and q u e s t i o n s were  c o n s i s t e n c i e s were  by  2 9 , 1975  These were  through  the years  correcting  corrections  added a f t e r  begun  was b a r e l y o n h i s own  several points.  time,  No  o r a d d i t i o n s on t h e  this  r e c o r d i n g had been  fully  transcribed. G r a n d m o t h e r was p r e s e n t d u r i n g t h i s not  directly  involved at first.  She was  s e s s i o n , b u t she was  aware o f w h a t was  going  106  on,  and began c o n t r i b u t i n g  she  was  In  information without prompting.  s a y i n g a b o u t h e r s e l f was  the dialogue  ( T a p e 2 8)  they  also  related  again v e r i f i e d  What  t o h i s comments. and q u e s t i o n e d  each  other. G r a n d f a t h e r went through year  chronology  d u r i n g one s e s s i o n and n e a r l y two t a p e s were  Short breaks certain from  the entire  were taken p e r i o d i c a l l y  facts,  the d e t a i l  to talk of the  chronology.  by  completed.  t o allow him t o  about other t h i n g s ,  year  recall  or to give a  diversion  107  Tape 28 Recorded:  May 29, 1975 Mr.  Ed Sparrow  Musqueam QUESTIONS RELATED TO PRELIMINARY OUTLINE OP WORK CHRONOLOGY — AN ATTEMPT TO FILL IN YEARS WHERE INFORMATION IS MISSING OR CONFLICTING. 1932: Oh '32, yeah, w e l l , we went up (to Skeena) you know. The whole f a m i l y went up on gas boat. Same o l d r o u t i n e , f i s h e d up Skeena and she worked i n the cannery. 1933 was the same; '34 same t h i n g , up Skeena and back a g a i n w i t h the whole f a m i l y . 1934 was the beginning o f Adams Run, I guess. F i r s t r e a l b i g run, you know. 1930 i t showed up but i t wasn't, you know, i t was r e a l l y l a t e run. Sockeyes were dark and b l a c k , the companies d i d n ' t want them. You got t h i n g s k i n d o f mixed up t h e r e , huh? (Reference t o c h r o n o l o g y ) . On the y e a r s , I mean. Question: fix i t .  You t e l l me which years are mixed up then and I * 11  Ed: You got i t r i g h t , 1934, you're r i g h t . What happened i n ~'5? Where i s i t now? Nothing but f i s h i n g a t Skeena. I f o r g o t how many years I went up e a r l y worked i n the c a n n e r i e s and hang n e t s . What years or where I mean, I always worked up there every year. '36, yeah, we were up t h e r e . Same o l d t h i n g , went up t h e r e w i t h the f a m i l y '35, '36. F i s h e d up t h e r e . And '37 same o l d t h i n g , no change. 1938, t h a t was when W i l l a r d and Ronny (sons) s t a r t e d to f i s h w i t h me. I gave up g e t t i n g p a r t n e r s because i t was too much t r o u b l e . Sometimes (partners) keep hounding you over money and sometimes t h e r e ' s no money made. Not t h a t much money made and they s t i l l come a f t e r i t so I q u i t . The boys f i s h e d w i t h me from '38, '39, '40, '41. Ronny got a boat o f h i s own i n '42. You  '42 was the l a s t year I went up Skeena, I guess. got i t here (on the c h r o n o l o g y ) .  10 8 '33 was a r e a l bad season up t h e r e (Skeena). D i d I t e l l you t h a t ? A r e a l bad one. Nobody was .... yeah, '33. 1940 was a bad one t o o , I t h i n k . She (Rose) p a i d my way down, g a s o l i n e and e v e r y t h i n g I guess, e v e r y t h i n g i s p r e t t y w e l l t h e r e now except '44. •42, '44, yeah, I t h i n k t h e Union (U.F.A.W.U.) formed i n '42, I t h i n k . S t a r t e d t o do something, I don't know what they were doing. You've got '44. '42 was a b i g run, '46 was Adams. What i s t h i s ? We're k i n d o f mixed up here, '42 was a b i g Adams run here, you know, one o f the b i g g e s t ever. '46 a g a i n . We d i d n ' t get t h e w e l f a r e (through N a t i v e Brotherhood) f o r q u i t e some time. In other words when we s t a r t e d n e g o t i a t i n g w i t h t h e union I can't r e c a l l j u s t what year we d i d f i n a l l y win out, you know. Question: "4~4?  You s a i d the Fishermen's  Union wasn't formed i n  r  I don't t h i n k so. There was, what you c a l l i t now, F r a s e r R i v e r G i l l n e t t e r s A s s o c i a t i o n , but what year they s o r t o f amalgamated and then the union took over I can't r e c a l l j u s t what y e a r . But i n '42 the union was t r y i n g to d i c k e r over t h a t G i l l n e t t e r s A s s o c i a t i o n then, but how f a r they got I don't know. I was a member but i t ' s hard t o keep t r a c k o f a l l t h a t . I was a member of t h a t G i l l n e t t e r s A s s o c i a t i o n f o r q u i t e some time b e f o r e I j o i n e d N a t i v e Brotherhood. '46, I don't know, w e l l , t h e r e was a b i g Adams r u n . '43 was a bad year on the F r a s e r , a r e a l bad one. D i d n ' t make n o t h i n g , no money t i l l f a l l . Restrictions started to come on then, you know. Right a f t e r '42 they s t a r t e d t o work on i t , but I t h i n k they r e a l l y s t a r t e d t o come i n t o e f f e c t about '44, '45. Q u e s t i o n:  Were you l i m i t e d t o a couple o f days a week?  I t wasn't q u i t e t h a t bad, but you know, we were g e t t i n g t h r e e , f o u r days a week. But they s t a r t e d c u t t i n g the fishermen down. Chinese gardens, I don't know what you've got t h e r e . Q u e s t i o n: You mentioned somewhere on the tape t h a t you had worked on the Chinese gardens but I d i d n ' t know when o r where. Oh, every now and then, you know. I used t o work out i n the b i g f i e l d s where t h e g o l f course i s (at Musqueam). J u s t hoeing and g a t h e r i n g t h e i r v e g e t a b l e s i n , I guess, t h a t was a l l .  109 Question; before?  Was  t h a t e a r l i e r on  ( i n your l i f e ) , a few  years  You've got i t questioned t h e r e betv/een '46 and '47. That's the o n l y p l a c e I worked, but i t was e a r l i e r than t h a t , you know. I t h i k i t was s h o r t l y a f t e r we got back from C h i l l i w a c k when I worked t h e r e . I was working i n the cannery a f t e r f i s h i n g time a l l d u r i n g the war days and from sometimes a f t e r New Year's making l e a d l i n e s , p r e p a r i n g n e t s , c l e a n i n g , sweeping out the net l o f t and one t h i n g and another. Then sometimes when somebody was i n a h u r r y they get me t o hang net f o r awhile, you know. Then when they c a t c h up t o t h e i r work a g a i n , I go back t o my own work. Moulding l i n e s i s what they r e a l l y c a l l e d i t . Moulding l e a d line. And b e s i d e s t h a t we thread the corks onto the cork l i n e , p r e t t y near a l l s p r i n g t i l l I f e e l l i k e q u i t t i n g . Then I go s p r i n g f i s h i n g ; sometimes I stay r i g h t w i t h i t t i l l p r e t t y near sockeye time, you know. That's s t a r t i n g from about '42 r i g h t on t i l l , oh, every y e a r . I don't know how many years I d i d t h a t f o r the s p r i n g . That's working w i t h I m p e r i a l Cannery -(B. C. P a c k e r s ) , you know. That's where we were moulding l i n e s , t h r e a d i n g l i n e s and s o r t i n g nets as they come i n from w h o l e s a l e r s . n  Question:  Were you l i v i n g over a t Steveston r i g h t then?  No, I was l i v i n g here. I used t o go t h e r e . We d i d n ' t move t o Steveston t i l l '48, '46, '47, I t h i n k something l i k e t h a t . L e t ' s see now, no, we were s t i l l at Westham I s l a n d . We were l i v i n g t h e r e but our camp was i n Westham. We moved t h e r e a f t e r Skeena R i v e r f i s h i n g . I can't r e c a l l when we moved. '48, I t h i n k , something l i k e t h a t . 1953:  Strike  Both sockeye time and f a l l we had h a r d l y any f i s h i n g time. The fishermen wanted a r a i s e . I t h i n k we were g e t t i n g t h i r t y - t w o , t h i r t y - t h r e e cents a pound then. For chums they were o n l y o f f e r i n g us, hmm. We wanted, I can't r e c a l l what we wanted, you know, on chums. But they s t a r t e d buying chums by the pound then. I guess i t was about s i x or e i g h t cents a pound, something l i k e t h a t . We had a long, bloody s t r i k e one r e c a l l what year. Question:  season but I can't  Did W i l l a r d f i s h w i t h you i n 1942?  Yeah, he stayed r i g h t w i t h me t i l l he stayed out o f s c h o o l t i l l the end of September before he went back. And a f t e r t h a t , yeah, a couple of years he f i s h e d w i t h me, I guess. Then he went on h i s own a f t e r . Maybe 3 y e a r s , I can't r e c a l l .  110 Anyways, L y l e and Johnny s t a r t e d t o f i s h w i t h me year a f t e r y e a r . I n t h e F r a s e r , you know, I never go anywheres no more. Sometimes I have a good season, o t h e r times t h e y ' r e k i n d o f bad. There's so much r e s t r i c t i o n . We never know when we're gonna be, when they're gonna c l o s e the r i v e r down. They never p u t i t on a b u l l e t i n board. T h i s w e l f a r e you've got here, you've got a q u e s t i o n mark on (1944). That was brought up along w i t h our f i s h p r i c e s n e g o t i a t i o n but we never succeeded. We never d i d g e t i t t i l l somewheres around 1954 something l i k e t h a t b e f o r e i t came i n t o e f f e c t , yeah. But t h a t was brought up year a f t e r y e a r . From 1944 on o r '45 I can't r e c a l l the exact y e a r . 1947, I can't r e c a l l what happened i n 1947. I was j u s t f i s h i n g around....I d i d w e l l a l l the time I was f i s h i n g though, you know. Except '43 was a bad one. I d i d n ' t make no b i g money, but I made enough t o l i v e on. A l i t t l e b i t t o put away b e s i d e s , we never used up, you know. '48 would be a b i g Adams run a g a i n . I t was a d v e r t i s e d . I t h i n k i t s t a r t e d t o d i e down i t was a d v e r t i s e d too much. (Laughter) That's what r e a l l y happened. Oh, yeah, they a l l come down from Skeena R i v e r . Couldn't g e t your n e t out i f you were a l i t t l e b i t l a t e . You g o t t a have your n e t out about just like this. I f you were a l i t t l e b i t l a t e you'd never get i t out. I t ' s dark, you know. The whole bunch of them (Northern people) were down i n 1948, I t h i n k . 1950 they had a good season up R i v e r s I n l e t . That's when we went. I d i d n ' t want t o go but L y l e (son) and John were f i s h i n g t o g e t h e r . I got a r e n t a l boat f o r them you know — John Cook. I t was Ace High I guess, t h e i r boat. They d i d p r e t t y w e l l . Not bad f o r young guys. I can't r e c a l l what year I t r i e d t o g&t L y l e s t a r t e d . I think Willard got h i s boat — when was i t the war ended? '48, '46, '45? W e l l , he had h i s boat then I guess, '45. F i s h i n g by h i m s e l f then and he was o n l y s i x t e e n years o l d . Q u i t s c h o o l b e f o r e he was s i x t e e n . I don't know what you had on t r a p p i n g r e a l l y , you know. I can't r e c a l l what I s a i d . (I was t r a p p i n g ) everyt h i n g . Muskrats and minks. I used t o t r a c k coons a l l over, C h i l l i w a c k and here. I d i d n ' t mention I guess t h a t I was t r a p p i n g up C h i l l i w a c k . Yeah, I was t r a p p i n g a l l over t h e v a l l e y i n a horse and buggy going around sloughs. Q u e s t i o n:  T h i s was between your jobs i n l o g g i n g camps I guess?  Yeah, w e l l sometimes the camp c l o s e s down you know, you g o t t a do something e l s e . I t would get so damn c o l d , c l o s e down. Sometimes they don't work f o r , no s a l e and they c l o s e down. You know t h i n g s weren't as valued as now. A l o t o f times they get two o r t h r e e booms and they c a n ' t g e t r i d o f i t .  Ill You g o t t a c l o s e t h e camp down. (that I t r a p p e d ) . Question:  T h i s was i n between times  D i d you have a b i g t r a p l i n e ?  No, no. In sloughs and one t h i n g and another. Over here when we were t r a p p i n g here we used t o t r a p around where the a i r p o r t ' s now, you know. And I trapped a l l around here, look a t my t r a p s e a r l y i n the evening o r e a r l y i n the morning. Then I'd go across t o Dinsmore I s l a n d a t n i g h t s and look a t your t r a p s w i t h l i g h t s . The o n l y chance you got was when the t i d e was low. Otherwise d u r i n g the day i t ' s h a l f t i d e you know, you can't see the t r a p s . Sometimes you g e t home about t h r e e , f o u r o'clock i n the morning. Sea I s l a n d , L u l u I s l a n d , I trapped a l l around t h e r e . B i g d i t c h e s you know, a l l along the f l a t s . I d i d t h e same t h i n g up C h i l l i w a c k . know where. Rose:  Anywhere you  The most I ever skinned one day was t h i r t y .  Ed: F o r t y something one day, you skinned i t a l l . I couldn't pack i t a l l home. I had t o go and make another t r i p . Hard work though. Rose: Skin them and p u t them on the boards. I used t o know how t o do t h a t . I f you d i d n ' t w e l l they'd s h r i n k up. He had a l l the boards made, and I'd s l i d e them i n , put t h e l i t t l e s t i c k i n both s i d e s so they wouldn't get stuck. Then you n a i l i t on the bottom. Question:  D i d you t r a p r i g h t up u n t i l about when, the 1950s?  Ed: Yeah, i t was '49 I t h i n k when I q u i t t r a p p i n g . '49 or "•"^O. I had a l l the boys t r a p p i n g w i t h me f o r awhile, Ronny. I t was so damn c o l d one morning when we were going o u t w i n t e r time, Ronny had a l a n t e r n t o heat up our w i n d s h i e l d . Hold the l a n t e r n up there so i t wouldn't f r e e z e . I t was s t i l l dark when we leave t o go t o Sea I s l a n d yom know. We g o t t a get up there before the t i d e gets up. You c o u l d n ' t heat your w i n d s h i e l d no way then. The c a r s weren't r i g g e d t h a t way. You used t o h o l d the bloody l a n t e r n up. W e l l , they had heat coming through but not going up your w i n d s h i e l d . Ice was forming from your b r e a t h . Ronny used t o h o l d the l a n t e r n t h e r e . That's a f t e r he q u i t s c h o o l , i s n ' t i t ? Rose:  I guess so. That poor k i d r e a l l y worked  hard.  Ed: Sometimes he'd go out alone t o look a t t h e t r a p s . I used t o t r u s t him w i t h the c a r . Sea I s l a n d was the b e s t p l a c e f o r t r a p s . We d i d w e l l there on t h e r e s e r v e and o u t s i d e t h e d i k e . Nobody knew anything about t r a p p i n g o u t s i d e the d i k e , you know. We d i d w e l l , t h e p r i c e i s good. We l o s t b i g money one time, me and Ronny. We thought we'd g e t a  112 r a i s e , we was h o l d i n g i t (furs)back. I t was t h r e e and a h a l f d o l l a r s a p e l t then, you know and coming up r i g h t a l o n g . I t o l d Ronny I don't t h i n k w e ' l l s e l l ours t i l l the p r i c e gets h i g h e r . And the f o l l o w i n g week they went down ( l a u g h t e r ) , went down t o about two d o l l a r s a p i e c e . e l o s t o u t . T,T  I used t o t r a p , go across here t o Iona. I trapped there too, you know. Sometimes I'd go a c r o s s and come back, get i n the c a r , go t o Sea I s l a n d . I never h a r d l y s l e e p f o r a month w h i l e the t r a p p i n g was good. Question:  T,T  hen was the b e s t time f o r t r a p p i n g ?  Anytime a f t e r November. Rose: You g e t a t r a p , I ' l l to t r a p when I was a k i d .  Used t o open f i f t e e n t h .  show you how t o t r a p .  I used  Ed: Yeah, we d i d w e l l . I made a l i v i n g out o f i t . 19 what ? 8 , '29, i t was down t o f o r t y c e n t s apiece f o r some reason. I don't know why, y e t I trapped. !e had t o , yeah, i t was '43 I guess where we had a bad year ( f i s h i n g ) . Then p e l t s went down too, f o r t y cents a p i e c e . I kept doing i t . T  x<  Rose:  I wonder why i t ' s s t i l l  cheap?  Ed: I guess the market went haywire i n Europe. most o f the p e l t s were going, you know. Question : 1950?  That's where  D i d you do p r e t t y w e l l j u s t f i s h i n g a f t e r about  Yeah, I d i d a l l r i g h t , r i g h t through. I d i d n ' t make no b i g money but I was p r e t t y near h i g h boat every year up on the F r a s e r . Question :  Fere you f i s h i n g s p r i n g s and sockeye?  Yeah, sometimes I go s p r i n g f i s h i n g and other times I don't. I f I know i t ' s poor I don't bother ( s p r i n g f i s h i n g ) . Soon as I hear a good r e p o r t I go r i g h t away. One time, I can't r e c a l l i t may be '44, I f i s h e d r i g h t here. I used t o go t o Canoe Pass t o f i s h s p r i n g s and t h a t year I d i d n ' t f e e l l i k e going t h e r e . I f i s h e d around here and I made more money than them guys i n Canoe Pass r i g h t a t home here. I d i d a l l s p r i n g . That was about the l a s t time the r i v e r was any good. 1942 was good r i g h t here when sockeye went up. Ronny d i d good here a f t e r we got back from Skeena, r i g h t here. Then we moved t o Steveston a f t e r a w h i l e . Then t h e r e was another t h i n g here (on the chronology) 1952, '53. I o r g a n i z e d f o r N a t i v e Brotherhood f o r two years or so. Then l a t e r , I became an e x e c u t i v e member a f t e r t h a t . Question:  A f t e r 1953?  113 Yes. Then I was e l e c t e d t o Board o f T r u s t e e s . That's when they were f i r s t s t a r t i n g ( i n south??) Yeah, I was an e x e c u t i v e member a f t e r two y e a r s . I b e l i e v e i t was '54 when we f i n a l l y won o u t on the w e l f a r e . That same year I was e l e c t e d t o the Board of T r u s t e e s r e p r e s e n t i n g the Brotherhood. From t h a t year on u n t i l 1972 b e f o r e I was r e t i r e d from i t . Q u e s t i o n: D i d you go f i s h i n g every year w h i l e you were working w i t h the Brotherhood? Yeah, yeah. We have meetings a f t e r f i s h i n g (season), or sometimes i n the evening o r weekends. I o n l y o r g a n i z e d around here, I d i d n ' t want t o spend no time o u t away from home because you never know when they're going t o open the season i n the r i v e r . I t was s h o r t n o t i c e . They wanted me to t r a v e l i n the I n t e r i o r b,ut I wouldn't do i t . I t wasn't worth my w h i l e . You've got some empty spaces here. r e c a l l each year you've got t h e r e .  I t ' s hard t o  Q u e s t i o n : P a r t o f t h a t time i n the l a t e r y e a r s , were you w o r k i n g f o r the band o f f i c e here a t Musqueam? W e l l , i t must have been 1942 I guess when the o l d C h i e f d i e d and I took over. Q u e s t i o n:  What C h i e f was t h a t ?  C h i e f Jack Stogan. I took over f o r one y e a r , a c t as C h i e f . That's when the band f i r s t s t a r t e d t o go. See they l i k e t h e i r money because they were f i a t broke when I took over. W e l l , they had $292 or$298 i n the band fund. I d i d e v e r y t h i n g , s t a r t e d a booming ground here. We got not t o o much money f o r i t . The year a f t e r t h a t we boost i t up, and I s o l d whatever I c o u l d get h o l d o f , wood, you know. People used t o accuse me. I s o l d t h a t and a l l the money went i n t o a bloody revenue account. I was l o s i n g money on i t when we were t r a v e l l i n g . S o l d a l l the wood, beach wood and e v e r y t h i n g on Seal I s l a n d and over here. I never took n o t h i n g f o r my expenses. We got two o r t h r e e booms t o come i n , a t a p r e t t y low r a t e f o r a w h i l e . Then f i n a l l y they got i n t e r e s t e d and we boosted i t up. We used t o g e t about $11,000, $12,000 a year o u t o f i t . We kept b u i l d i n g i t up u n t i l 19.., we must have b u i l t i t up u n t i l about 1956 (or'66??) We had $132,000. The people were g e t t i n g k i n d o f l e a r y about i t . They want t o use i t , they want t o see i f t h e money was t h e r e . They wouldn't b e l i e v e me when I make my r e p o r t s they thought I was g e t t i n g r i c h . Then they found out they had money t h e r e and they s t a r t wanting e v e r y t h i n g on the r e s e r v e .  114 We s t a r t e d t o help o l d people out o f i t . F o r a year or two we were t a k i n g , oh, they were o n l y b u i l d i n g one o r two houses. 1956 I became C h i e f u n t i l , I can't r e c a l l , '56. No, l a t e r than t h a t , I'm making a mistake. James P o i n t was C h i e f f o r t e n years I guess and I was h i s s e c r e t a r y . From '43 u n t i l — When d i d our l a t e son (John) become C h i e f ? He was the f i r s t one a f t e r James, but what year? Anyway James got on '43 I know t h a t f o r s u r e . He was on f o r t e n y e a r s I think. I got i t marked down i n a book. Then Dominic (Point) I guess. I can't r e c a l l how many guys took over. Then Johnny became a C h i e f a f t e r . Who was C h i e f when I r a n f o r it? (asks Rose). Oh, Dominic (Point) I guess. I was on f o r f o u r y e a r s . That's when I'm t r y i n g t o f i g u r e out (when). Four y e a r s , 1968 when I was beaten by Gerty (Guerin) I guess. Must have been 1964 (when I got i n t o o f f i c e ) I can't r e c a l l , you c o u l d get i t from the o f f i c e I guess, p r o p e r l y . But i t ' s '68 when Gerty took over you know. No! E a r l i e r than t h a t . There's something wrong here, I got mixed up. C h i e f a f t e r Gerty. Dominic came on, he was on f o r two y e a r s , '67. F i f t y - e i g h t when I r e t i r e d , t h a t ' s r i g h t , not '68, because Dominic l o s t out and then Percy (Charles) I think. So Percy was C h i e f when my l a t e son, W i l l a r d d i e d , you know. That's r i g h t , '58 when somebody beat me t o i t you know. Must have been 1954 when I became C h i e f . Johnny was C h i e f i n '52. I remember '52 when they wanted t o g e t r i d . o f James (Point) you know. People voted t o go on a new system, e l e c t every two y e a r s . Then a l l the young k i d s got on. Johnny was C h i e f , B i l l y Guerin was a c o u n c i l l o r and Smitty was a councillor. They d i d n ' t know what the h e l l they were d o i n g ! I used t o go out there t o h e l p them. Q u e s t i o n:  Were you on the c o u n c i l f o r awhile too?  Oh yeah, t h a t was the o l d s t y l e . I never bothered to run when t h i s new system was c a l l e d f o r . Too busy, I d i d n ' t want t o be i n v o l v e d i n anything you know. C h i e f s were r e a l l y the boss, boss the people around. I never d i d run f o r C o u n c i l , I d i d run once not too long ago and I got d e f e a t e d a g a i n by two p o i n t s o r so. And I never bothered. Now I get i n t e r e s t e d when t h i n g are going haywire. I might run t h i s time again f o r c o u n c i l . Question:  You mentioned  a b i g s t r i k e about 1963?  1963, sockeye, yeah. F r a s e r R i v e r and a l l over the c o a s t . We d i d n ' t get our demands. I can't r e c a l l q u i t e . I j u s t burned my f i s h books not too l o n g ago. I t h i n k they'd g i v e e v e r y t h i n g , you know. You know what you make each year then you know, and what went on. Everytime we l o s e w i t h a s t r i k e i t ' s marked i n my book, i n the b l a c k one you know.  115 Even the t i d e s were marked i n my book so I know. From year to year I used the same books. Study, study t h e t i d e s . That's how we used t o make a go o f i t . Ronny d i d the same t h i n g . Everybody wondered why we were always on time but we had i t marked down, you know. That's t h e o n l y way you have to do i t . Even Skeena R i v e r we d i d the same t h i n g . I kept a s o r t o f l o g book, I guess they c a l l i t . What date you c a t c h a c e r t a i n amount o f f i s h and what k i n d o f t i d e s . You know, how many f e e t t i d e s . We never keep t r a c k o f h i g h t i d e s , one t h i n g and another, we keep t r a c k 6f low t i d e s . When we got our catches you know. Even i f i t ' s a poor t i d e , poor day w e l l i t went down. J u s t t h e same bloody book you know. You had t o be one day, w e l l we'd c a t c h our bloody f i s h a day b e f o r e d e l i v e r y a l l the time you know, and you've got t o back l o g a l l t h e time. And the time, when t h e t i d e was r i g h t , when i t was low. I t worked l i k e t h a t the same way i n Skeena. You had t o keep t r a c k o f every t i d e and what s o r t o f t i d e i t was, when you made your c a t c h . W e l l we d i d n ' t h a r d l y miss from year t o y e a r . You look a t your book and you know. You probably miss a day o r so. Sometimes the f i s h are a l i t t l e bit late. You g e t i t the next t i d e . You don't q u i t then, you keep t r y i n g . We had t h i s r i v e r down p a t you know. That's a l l we d i d up Skeena t h a t ' s why v/e were always h i g h (boat — h i g h e s t earnings) t o o you know. Had i t p r e t t y w e l l down p a t . Only t h i n g t h a t beat us t h e r e was snags! Question:  You s o l d your boat  ( A r c t i c P r i n c e ) about 1972?  Yeah, *72 when I s o l d i t I t h i n k , Question: boat?  I got confused about when you bought your  1928. Question:  yeah. first  I s o l d i t i n 1942.  And i n 1942 you bought another boat?  I bought a s m a l l one, the S e a b i r d I I . Then, when did I get my new boat, A r c t i c P r i n c e ? 1953. I had t h a t t h i n g f o r — yeah, I got t h a t i n '43, the l i t t l e one, t h a t ' s S e a b i r d I I t h a t was. Q u e s t i o n: Prince?  D i d you keep t h a t one u n t i l you g o t t h e A r c t i c  Yeah, I r e b u i l t i t and made i t do. I s o l d i t i n '51, I guess. I d i d n ' t g e t my boat u n t i l , I t h i n k i t ' s t h e wrong y e a r . I got my boat i n '52 I t h i n k , the new one. You've got '53 here. I bought another boat a f t e r t h e S e a b i r d I I . I t should have been named S e a b i r d I I I . I p a i d $5,200 f o r t h e S e a b i r d IV, which was b u i l t by K i s h i B r o t h e r s (Boat B u i l d e r s ) . I only kept i t f o r two y e a r s . I s o l d i t f o r $4,800 I t h i n k .  116 (It was) too deep f o r r i v e r f i s h i n g . I'd get grounded w h i l e the other guys were s t i l l a f l o a t . I t ' s s t i l l going. The Japanese (who bought i t ) s a i d there's nothing wrong w i t h i t . I t makes a good t r a w l e r . The Japanese used t o season t h e i r m a t e r i a l one or two years b e f o r e they b u i l d w i t h i t . When I r e b u i l t the A r c t i c P r i n c e the r i b s were s t a r t i n g t o go. I t (wood) wasn't seasoned. We a l l got our boats t h e r e ( K i s h i B r o t h e r s ) . Mike (Wilson), Roy (Wilson), even your Dad (Ron Sparrow, Sr.) got h i s f i r s t boat t h e r e . About $1,500 I t h i n k , and i t was o n l y two years o l d I t h i n k (when Ron bought i t ) . Dan Thomas ( l i v i n g a t Duncan) bought Ron's second boat. Q u e s t i o n : What was your p o s i t i o n w i t h the N a t i v e when you became a member?  Brotherhood  An e x e c u t i v e member. L a t e r on I became V i c e - P r e s i d e n t of a l l the Southern D i s t r i c t . You're next to the V i c e P r e s i d e n t there you know. Whenever you decide on your d i s t r i c t w e l l , i t ' s brought up t o the board. I was V i c e - P r e s i d e n t f o r , up t o the time I q u i t anyway from the time I was e l e c t e d i n '54 I t h i n k up t o '72. Yeah. There's nothing i n i t you know j u s t a headache t h a t ' s a l l . Got my expenses p a i d and meals and what not. Someone had t o do i t , so. I enjoyed i t . The union always t r i e d t o swallow us and we were f i g h t i n g back a t them you know. Q u e s t i o n : While you were on the band c o u n c i l here you were s t i l l f i s h i n g too, were you? Yeah, then I can't r e c a l l what year I was business manager now, '68. Yeah, '68 - '70. I s t a r t e d i n '68 and I q u i t '70, i n J u l y or August. I had B r i a n running my boat. He wasn't making no money f o r me, and t h e r e wasn't much pay i n the bloody o f f i c e then you know. So I q u i t i t and I went fishing. Question: Can I go back t o when you f i r s t s t a r t e d working? You went to a l o g g i n g camp on S a l t s p r i n g I s l a n d . You s a i d t h a t was your f i r s t logging? I t was Question:  about 1916  I think.  And t h a t ' s where your f a t h e r worked was i t ?  Yeah, he was the foreman. That's the reason why I got on! (Laughter) My dad was foreman t h e r e i n the l o g g i n g camp i n S a l t s p r i n g . Question:  Can you r e c a l l your jobs i n o r d e r a f t e r t h a t ?  Oh, I went t o , hmm, I can't r e c a l l the name of i t . Toby's I n l e t , yeah, we were t h e r e f o r q u i t e a w h i l e . Can't  117 get  out.  Question:  Do  y o u remember a b o u t what y e a r t h a t w o u l d  be?  About 1917, I g u e s s . Then I went t o , a f t e r t h a t I went t o Halfmoon Bay. Then, I went t o B i d w e l l Bay, t h a t ' s up i n t h e i n l e t ( B u r r a r d I n l e t ) . I c a n ' t r e c a l l how l o n g I stayed there. Y o u d o n ' t s t a y i n a camp f o r t o o l o n g . The g r u b was b a d a t t i r o e s y o u know. Sometimes you s t a y t h e r e for a c o u p l e o f months o r s o , t h e n you g e t a r o t t e n meal you w a n t t o q u i t r i g h t away. T h i n g s were bad i n Toby's I n l e t . Y o u c o u l d n ' t h a v e a d e c e n t m e a l t h e r e , we c o u l d n ' t g e t o u t . We h a d t o r o w a c r o s s t o a l i t t l e s e t t l e r t h e r e y o u k n o w . He h a d a l i t t l e b o a t a n d we p a i d h i m t o t a k e u s o u t t o t h e steamboat l i n e . T h e o n l y t h i n g we w e r e e a t i n g w a s b a c o n a n d eggs, which were g e t t i n g r o t t e n . B e c a u s e t h e y h a d no r e f r i g e r a t o r o f a n y k i n d t h e r e y o u know. Bacon most o f t h e times. T h e y ' d go a f t e r s u p p l i e s , b u t y o u know t h e y ' d go b a d i n a week. By t h e weekend y o u ' v e g o t h a y w i r e m e a l s . We h a d a h e c k o f a t i m e . T h e r e was a c a n n e r y a t t h e n o r t h end o f Toby's I n l e t . We h a d t o s t a y t h e r e f o r a b o u t eight, ten hours, nothing to eat. (Laugh) We j u s t h a d e n o u g h money t o g e t on t h e s t e a m b o a t a n d no money t o b u y a meal on t h e steamboat. We h a d t i m e c h e q u e s , y o u k n o w , t h e y d i d n ' t i s s u e no r e a l c h e q u e s , r e d e e m a b l e c h e q u e s I mean. Time cheques — y o u c o l l e c t y o u r money i n t h e o f f i c e i n t o w n o r i n (New W e s t m i n s t e r ) , w h e r e v e r t h e i r o f f i c e i s . We h a d n o t h i n g t o e a t a l l d a y c o m i n g down f r o m t h e r e . Vancouver b e f o r e we e a t . Question:  pass Rose: town?  It's Lund.  Where a b o u t s i s t h a t , on  the other  Toby's  s i d e o f Lund,  Inlet? first  Where d i d y o u g e t y o u r money t o go  inlet  after  e a t when y o u  you  got to  Oh, I b o r r o w e d f r o m s o m e b o d y . I f o r g o t who t h e h e l l g a v e me some m o n e y . We w e n t t o W e s t m i n s t e r t o t r y a n d g e t our cheque. We c o u l d n ' t g e t i t f o r a w e e k o r t w o , y o u k n o w . H a d t o g e t a l a w y e r b e f o r e we c o u l d g e t o u r m o n e y . He d i d n ' t want t o p a y us b e c a u s e w e q u i t I g u e s s and no w a r n i n g . We d i d n ' t w a r n t h e m w h e n we q u i t b e c a u s e e v e r y t h i n g w a s s o haywire. We p a c k e d u p a n d w a l k e d d o w n . We d i d n ' t k n o w i f we w e r e g o i n g t o g e t away o r n o t . T h e r e was no b o a t s w e r e running there. We h a d t o c o m e o u t t o t h e m o u t h o f t h e i n l e t to — t h e r e ' s no s e t t l e r s i n t h a t i n l e t t h e n y o u know. Only one o r two. T h e r e was o n e , t h e r e was a r e s e r v e t h e r e b u t n o b o d y was l i v i n g t h e r e . T h e r e was a s e t t l e r a c r o s s , two o r three houses. We w e n t a n d b o r r o w e d a b o a t f r o m t h a t r e s e r v e a n d we r o w e d a c r o s s w i t h i t a b o u t f o u r o r f i v e m i l e s t o g e t i n t o u c h w i t h a guy w i t h a gas b o a t . T h e r e was e i g h t o r t e n of us w i t h t h i s l i t t l e b o a t ! ( L a u g h t e r ) We h a d t o t r a v e l  118 n i g h t time, when we came out toward the mouth you know, n o t h i n g but s t r a i g h t w a l l l i k e t h a t , the bloody mountains. I f we t i p p e d over we'd never be able t o hang onto n o t h i n g . Bad p l a c e . We heard bears and e v e r y t h i n g . You hear them making a h e l l o f a r a c k e t a t n i g h t you know, by the r i v e r . Quite a b i g r i v e r up t h e r e . And B i d w e l l Bay, t h a t ' s i n what they c a l l the North Arm o f I n l e t you know. I went t h e r e f o r q u i t e a w h i l e . And then, P i t t Lake, t h a t ' s way up t h e r e t o o . That's another haywire p l a c e . The food's a l i t t l e b e t t e r but you know, i t used t o g e t bad i n the summer. I q u i t and came home. Q u e s t i o n: You mentioned working i n the sawmills around Vancouver? Oh yeah, t h a t ' s way back i n 1916, '17 when I worked t h e r e . Yeah, i t must be 1916, '11. I worked n i g h t s h i f t there. I worked day s h i f t f o r awhile and switched t o n i g h t . I worked i n sawmills a l l over t o o you know whenever I g e t a chance. I was l o a d i n g open c a r s i n Squamish, timber, f o r a sawmill t h e r e . I must have worked there f o r two, t h r e e months, I guess. Q u e s t i o n: Was t h a t r i g h t a f t e r you'd been working i n Vancouver? T h i s was 1917, 'l8 I guess, '17 I guess. w e l l , yeah t h a t ' s r i g h t .  Oh yeah,  Oh, I drove teams over here h a u l i n g wood. a f t e r we were m a r r i e d I guess, 1918. Q u e s t i o n:  That's  During t h e w i n t e r o r the summer?  Time l i k e t h i s . I used t o have t o walk t o K e r r i s d a l e where t h e y a r d i s t o feed the horses and harness them. Be on t h e road by 7:00. Walked from here you know. No s t r e e t c a r , d i d n ' t run t i l l about 7:00 I guess. I'd be ready t o come o u t by the time the t h i n g s t a r t e d t o come down the r o a d . They'd s w i t c h from the main l i n e from F a l s e Creek t o Marpole, S t e v e s t o n . You c o u l d hear them when they're s w i t c h i n g o f f the farm, where I was working. Question:  You mentioned working a t Halfmoon  Bay a l s o ?  Yeah, I was t h e r e a couple o f times. There was a good camp, b u t . I went w i t h one f r i e n d from S a l t s p r i n g I s l a n d . I t ' s so damn lonesome you c a n ' t stay t h e r e too long you know.  119 Weekends, Sunday what the h e l l you gonna do? You walk along the bloody bush, you get homesick! (Laughter) We went down from Halfmoon Bay w i t h t h a t guy, I can't r e c a l l h i s name, he was from S a l t s p r i n g . He was j u s t about the same age o r maybe j u s t a l i t t l e b i t o l d e r than I was. He was a w h i s t l e punk. We went down towards the beach, walk about t h r e e m i l e s t o where the main camp was, the r a i l r o a d camp. While we were i n the bush p i c k i n g salmon b e r r i e s a bloody e c l i p s e came on! Got dark! (Laugh) We dicfh't know what t h e h e l l was going on! We d i d n ' t know, we got no newspaper o r r a d i o o r n o t h i n g you know. A l l we know, the p l a c e got dark. Gives you a funny f e e l i n g you know. He says what the h e l l ' s going on, he says, am I g e t t i n g b l i n d , he says. I don't know, I says t o him. I crawled o u t of the bloody bushes i n a hurry and turned around on the bloody road. I never thought o f a n y t h i n g . I got k i n d o f scared! Real dark f o r a couple o f minutes I guess. I t was k i n d o f cloudy when I came down. I t was so damn lonesome. There was a whole bunch o f us, we were a l l p a r t e d . Some went l o o k i n g a t the booms down there you know. Question:  When d i d you say t h a t was?  19.., l e t ' s see now. That'd be 1917 because we got t o g e t h e r (married) i n 1918. I went up t h e r e e a r l y and I had to q u i t , come down t o p l a y l a c r o s s e . They wanted me home, so I came down and p l a y e d l a c r o s s e . And I went back again a f t e r .  Tape 29 Recorded:  May 29, 1975 Mr. Ed Sparrov; REFERENCE TO PRELIMINARY CHRONOLOGY OF WORK HISTORY  Question: Do you remember when you were b u i l d i n g nets w i t h Mike Wilson? You mean hanging n e t s . That's i n Skeena R i v e r , sometime b e f o r e the f o r t i e s we used t o go up t h e r e . I t h i n k I mentioned t h a t b e f o r e . W e l l , I'm t r y i n g t o r e c a l l . We used to go up e a r l y . 1924, '25, '26, '27, '28, a l l those years we were up t h e r e working e a r l y b e f o r e f i s h i n g season, p r e p a r i n g nets and what not. Making, t h r e a d i n g rope w i t h f l o a t s . H e l p i n g around; i f they were behind on t h e i r work they'd ask  120 y o u t o h a n g n e t s t o c a t c h up. A l l c a n n e r i e s hung t h e i r n e t s for t h e i r fishermen. I f t h e y had t h r e e h u n d r e d f i s h e r m e n t h e y h a d t o h a v e t h r e e h u n d r e d n e t s r e a d y f o r them f o r t h e s e a s o n . M o s t c a n n e r i e s had o v e r a h u n d r e d f i s h e r m e n I g u e s s . Claxton had w e l l o v e r a h u n d r e d t h e l a s t few y e a i s I was t h e r e . It kept i n c r e a s i n g , i n c r e a s i n g every year. They g o t a bunch o f Swedes up t h e r e i n — I've got t o l o o k t o r e c a l l — I kind o f t h i n k i t was d u r i n g t h e l a s t war d a y s when t h e y b r o u g h t t h e m t h e r e . T h e y r e t u r n e d a l o t o f g u y s home who c o u l d n ' t handle a s a i l b o a t . T h e y made them p r a c t i c e o u t i n f r o n t o f the cannery before they got axed. I d o n ' t know why t h e y b r o u g h t t h e m o u t , t h e y had a l o t o f f i s h e r m e n . I guess they wanted p r o b a b l y t h e i r f o u r t h s t a k e , these guys. T h e r e w e r e a l o t o f N o r w e g i a n s a n d Swedes i n t h e l o g g i n g camps, I t a l i a n s . T h e r e was a few o f t h e m s t a y e d up, I mean made i t , y o u know. And, t h e y became g o o d f i s h e r m e n . A l o t o f g u y s w e r e s e n t b a c k . Oh, t h e y had a w h o l e b u n c h up there. What e l s e ( d i d y o u w a n t t o a s k ) ? Question: Do y o u r e c a l l when (; ,< f i s h i n g a t Banks I s l a n d ?  a t what time)  you  were  I f i s h e d f o r q u i t e a l o n g t i m e t h e r e , y o u know. When d i d Ronny g e t h i s b o a t — "42, i s n ' t i t ? I must have s t a r t e d a b o u t '35 o r '36 t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e F r a s e r , I mean t h e S k e e n a r u n was g r a d u a l l y d y i n g o u t f r o m t h a t s l i d e t h e y h a d . They d i d n ' t know i t , t h e r e was s l i d e i n B a b i n e . Babine R i v e r I guess, below Babine Lake. I t d i e d o f f t h e same way a s t h e F r a s e r d i d i n 1913 — t h e r e was a s l i d e t h e r e , y o u know. I was one o f t h e f i r s t o n e s t h a t w e n t o u t t h e r e w i t h t h e b u n c h o u t t h e r e . The f i r s t y e a r I g o t t h e r e I d i d n ' t make — done v e r y w e l l , but b e t t e r than s t a y i n g i n Skeena. c  Question: You d i d n ' t f i s h t h e S k e e n a t h o s e y e a r s y o u t o Banks I s l a n d ?  went  No. S o m e t i m e s t o w a r d s t h e end o f t h e s e a s o n when i t d i e s o f f q u i c k e r o u t t h e r e y o u p r o b a b l y f i s h one o r two w e e k s up S k e e n a a t t h e end o f t h e s e a s o n b e f o r e h e a d i n g f o r home. We w e n t o u t i n '42 when Ronny g o t h i s b o a t . I t was no g o o d so we came b a c k t o t h e S k e e n a and f i s h e d o u t i n E d d y ' s P a s s , I g u e s s . Y o u ' v e g o t i t h e r e (on t h e c h r o n o l o g y ) . Question: T h e r e was a few y e a r s wjhen y o u K e l l s (on F r a s e r ) , w a s n ' t t h e r e ?  fished at Port  We u s e d t o go up f o r o p e n i n g d a y . As s o o n a s i t d i e s o f f we d r i f t down t o S t e v e s t o n a g a i n . We d i d w e l l up t h e r e at times. G o t so many b o a t s g o i n g up t h e r e a f t e r a b i t , g o t so I g i v e i t up. I n e v e r (?) w e n t up t h e r e t h e l a s t few y e a r s I was f i s h i n g .  121 E d d y ' s P a s s was i n s i d e o f S t e p h e n s I s l a n d . I don't know w h e t h e r y o u g o t i t h e r e o r n o t . I t ' s i n s i d e . The c h a n n e l goes r o u n d t o t h e n o r t h w e s t , r i g h t c l e a n around S t e p h e n s I s l a n d o u t t o t h e s o u t h . I t ' s an i s l a n d , y o u know, we d i d w e l l t h e r e . We d i d n ' t f i s h i n S k e e n a . We f i s h e d o u t s i d e a l l t h e t i m e . Ronny was j u s t a b o u t a c o u p l e o f h u n d r e d y a r d s away f r o m me a l l t h e t i m e . F i s h t r y t o g e t a s h o r e a l l t h e t i m e , h a r d l y move. Y o u g o t t a p i c k up y o u r n e t e v e r y now and t h e n , t o k i n d o f c l e a n i t u p , y o u know, t h e n throx-/ o u t a g a i n . Question: Do y o u r e c a l l w h i c h y e a r s y o u f i s h e d a t P o r t o r Douglas Island?  Kells,  F i r s t t i m e I w e n t t h e r e I w e n t b r o k e . We m u s t h a v e s t a r t e d g o i n g up t h e r e — a w h o l e b u n c h o f u s g o i n g , we u s e d t o go up Sunday n i g h t s f r o m maybe '61 - '62 o r '63 when we started. We go up f o r t h e o p e n i n g s a y and u s u a l l y Mondays e v e r y t i m e r i g h t a l o n g . We f i s h a l l d a y . As s o o n a s t h e f i s h s l a c k e n s o f f up t h e r e , we h e a d down. We must h a v e s t a r t e d e i t h e r one o f them y e a r s . We s t a r t e d e a r l i e r t h a n that! When d i d t h e J a p a n e s e f i r s t come down f r o m t h e i n t e r i o r , 1 9 5 3 , 1954? We must h a v e s t a r t e d way b e f o r e t h a t y o u know, b e c a u s e some o f t h e J a p a n e s e s t a r t e d g o i n g up t h e r e t o o . We'd u s u a l l y j u s t go up f o r t h e one d a y , t h e o p e n i n g t h a t ' s a l l b e c a u s e t h e f i s h u s e d t o s c h o o l up a r o u n d D o u g l a s I s l a n d . P o r t K e l l s , I w e n t i n t o P o r t K e l l s two o r t h r e e t i m e s ; t h e r e ' s t o o many p e o p l e t h e r e , t o o many f i s h e r m e n . T h e r e ' s h a r d l y a n y b o d y a t D o u g l a s I s l a n d t h e n , y o u know. I made some b i g catches there. B u t t o w a r d s t h e end w e l l , a l o t o f p e o p l e f r o m down b e l o w u s e d t o go up t h e r e . I mean f r o m down S t e v e s t o n , a l l o v e r , s t a r t e d m o v i n g up f o r t h e o p e n i n g . I t w a s n ' t w o r t h w h i l e towards t h e end, everybody q u i t . I was t h e l a s t one t o t r y i t , I g u e s s . I t h i n k i t was 1970 when I w e n t up. t h e r e l a s t — 1971 o r '70. N o t h i n g , i t w a s n ' t w o r t h my while. Too many b o a t s . Y o u ' r e l u c k y i f y o u g e t (any f i s h ) . I f you m i s s i t you don't g e t n o t h i n g . Some g u y s g e t q u i t e a f e w , y o u know, t h e l u c k y o n e s . So, I q u i t i t a l t o g e t h e r . v  Question: W h i l e you were l i v i n g a t C h i l l i w a c k where o r a t w h a t camps d i d y o u w o r k ? I was b o o m i n g on t h e ( V e d d e r ) C a n a l f o r a l o n g t i m e , maybe a c o u p l e y e a r s , I g u e s s , t h e r e . Same company y o u know, t t e y m u s t move a r o u n d . Question: Y o u w o r k e d f o r t h e . . . . p r e t t y w e l l t h e same company f o r t h e whole t i m e you were a t C h i l l i w a c k ? N e v e r t o o f a r away from C h i l l i w a c k ? Y e s . W e l l , t h e r e was a camp t h e r e ; I ' d go home e v e r y S a t u r d a y . V e d d e r C a n a l , y o u know. W e l l , i t was a b o u t s i x , s e v e n m i l e s away f r o m C h i l l i w a c k I g u e s s . Something l i k e t h a t , maybe n o t t h a t f a r . We u s e d t o w a l k o n t h e r a i l r o a d t o  122 g o home. Taxi wait a l l day.  was h a r d t o g e t , y o u know. Never g e t there sometimes.  You c a l l a t a x i , S o we w a l k e d .  T h e y c l o s e d t h e camp down w h e n a b l i z z a r d came o n . T h e y c l o s e t h e camp d o w n , y o u h a v e a h e l l o f a t i m e g e t t i n g home. We'd b l o w u p a n d d o w n . We'd h a v e a r e s t , t u r n a r o u n d , get your wind and s t a r t a g a i n . I g o t home, s h e ( R o s e ) w e n t to town, t r yand g e t s u p p l i e s . Walking the r a i l r o a d tooj her. F i n d i n g h e r way home, y o u k n o w . Real blizzard. Closed t h e camp down f o r f o u r (?) m o n t h s , I g u e s s t h a t y e a r . Can't get going, t o o c o l d . S t i l l i c eon t h e l i t t l e ponds and l a k e s i n M a r c h up t h e r e . One o f t h e w o r s t w i n t e r s I e v e r s e e n . The w h o l e r i v e r was f r o z e n a c r o s s t h e F r a s e r . Guys were walking across. I c e c h u n k s , y o u know, jammed i n t h e r e . D r i f t down, I g u e s s . J u s t l i k e waves on t h e b l o o d y r i v e r . I w o u l d n e v e r x^alk a c r o s s ; t h e m g u y s w a l k e d a c r o s s . Guys h o l d i n g t h e bloody poles coming across i n case they fall through I guess. I ' d n e v e r do t h a t . They d i d t h a t when t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g a t ( Q u e e n ' s ? ) I s l a n d t o o . I c a m e home when t h e r i v e r s t a r t e d t o f r e e z e . T h e y t o l d me t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o c l o s e down a n y t i m e . No m o r e b o o m w o r k f o r me s o I came home. Q u i t e a few f a l l e r s and b u c k e r s a n d swampers were s t i l l t h e r e working. Overnight t h e r i v e r f r o z e , they got stuck there. Some g u y s h a d t o g o d o w n t o M i s s i o n , c r o s s o v e r . I d o n ' t k n o w how t h e h e l l t h e y g o t home f r o m A b b o t s f o r d . Real b l i z z a r d s o m e t i m e s up t h e r e t h e n . No m o r e o f t h a t k i n d o f weather. Funny. I g u e s s t h e r e ' s t o o many f a c t o r i e s a n d o n e t h i n g a n d a n o t h e r t h e r e k e e p s i t warm o r t i m e s a r e c h a n g i n g , I guess. I h a d t o f i n d s o m e t h i n g t o d o a t home. I used t o c u t cordwood here and s e l l . When t h i n g s g e t b a d y o u c a n ' t g e t nothing. W e l l , y o u c o u l d n ' t f i n d work i f y o u d i d go o u t , t o o much d i s c r i m i n a t i o n t h e n , y o u know. L o g g i n g camps and m i l l s was a b o u t t h e o n l y p l a c e y o u c o u l d g e t o n . I was k i n d o f l u c k y when I was up C h i l l i w a c k . I g o t on w e l l . The r e a s o n why I c o u l d g e t o n a t a n y t h i n g up t h e r e was I u s e d t o p l a y s o c c e r and b a s e b a l l and l a c r o s s e w i t h them. W e l l , I grew up there. When I w a s a t s c h o o l u p t h e r e I g o t p r e t t y v / e l l a c q u a i n t e d w i t h w h i t e a n d I n d i a n s up t h e r e . I was t h e o n l y I n d i a n r u n n e r o n t h e r e l a y team t h e y h a d . C h i l l i w a c k was o n e o f t h e b e s t i n B. C. t h e n , y o u k n o w . I n e v e r was s t u c k f o r a j o b up t h e r e . Over here (Vancouver a r e a ) , r e a l l y rough. You c o u l d n ' t g e t no work here h a r d l y . As soon as t h e y f i n d o u t you're a f i s h e r m e n , they won't l o o k a t y o u . They know y o u ' r e n o t g o i n g t o go o n s t e a d y . I t r i e d time and a g a i n a r o u n d h e r e i n t h e m i l l s . T h e y t o l d me y o u ' l l n e v e r f i n d no work, t h e government w i l l l o o k a f t e r y o u ! W e l l , I s t a r t e d b e a c h c o m b i n g a n d w o r k i n g o n my o w n , you know. I made a g o o f i t . I made p r e t t y g o o d o n b e a c h c o m b i n g e v e n a f t e r t h e y l i c e n s e d i t . I p i c k e d up s e v e r a l b o o m s , k e p t q u i t e a f e w b o y s f r o m h e r e w o r k i n g f o r me. I p a i d them s e v e n t y - f i v e c e n t s an hour, they were o n l y g e t t i n g  123 t h i r t y , f o r t y c e n t s an h o u r e l s e w h e r e . J u s t t o h e l p them out. I d o n ' t know i f i t d o n e a n y g o o d . We u s e d t o h a v e a' g r e a t b i g boom o v e r h e r e , a n d I g o t t a g e t h e l p f r o m t h r e e o r f o u r l o c a l b o y s t o boom t h e l o g s , t o move t h e boom. S t i l l , y o u ' r e r e a d y , t h e same a s y o u do i n l o g g i n g camp. Y o u p u t s w i f t e r s o n e v e r y boom. C h a i n e d up s o t h e y w o u l d n ' t b r e a k t h e n y o u t o w i t away. Question: A t t h e t i m e y o u b r o k e y o u r l e g , were y o u o f f work for awhile? W e l l , I c o u l d n ' t work, I d i d n ' t work t i l l M a r c h