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An existential-phenomenological approach to understanding the experience of marital satisfaction Cawsey, Peter 1985

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AN EXISTENTIAL-PHENOMENOLOGICAL  APPROACH  TO UNDERSTANDING THE EXPERIENCE OF MARITAL SATISFACTION  By  PETER CAWSEY B.R.E., U n i v e r s i t y  of B r i t i s h Columbia, 1973  A THESIS SUBMITTED  IN PARTIAL FULFILLMENT OF  THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DEGREE OF MASTER OF ARTS  in  THE FACULTY OF GRADUATE STUDIES (DEPARTMENT OF COUNSELLING  PSYCHOLOGY)  We accept t h i s t h e s i s as conforming to tjhe reqtjired standard  THE UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA April  1985  ©Peter Cawsey, 1985  In p r e s e n t i n g t h i s t h e s i s i n p a r t i a l f u l f i l m e n t o f t h e requirements f o r an advanced degree a t the U n i v e r s i t y o f B r i t i s h Columbia, I agree t h a t t h e L i b r a r y s h a l l make it  freely  a v a i l a b l e f o r r e f e r e n c e and study.  I further  agree t h a t p e r m i s s i o n f o r e x t e n s i v e copying o f t h i s  thesis  f o r s c h o l a r l y purposes may be granted by t h e head o f my department o r by h i s o r h e r r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s . understood t h a t copying o r p u b l i c a t i o n o f t h i s for financial  gain  Counselling Psychology  The U n i v e r s i t y o f B r i t i s h 1956 Main Mall Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Y3  Date  DE-6  (3/81)  April 26, 1985  thesis  s h a l l n o t be allowed without my  permission.  Department Of  It i s  Columbia  written  ABSTRACT  T h i s s t u d y i s an e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l i n v e s t i g a t i o n the e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  I t sought t o u n d e r s t a n d  into the  meaning o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as l i v e d . F i v e m a r r i e d i n d i v i d u a l s , t h r e e females  and two m a l e s , who had been  m a r r i e d f o r t e n y e a r s o r l o n g e r were i n t e r v i e w e d .  They were s e l e c t e d on  the b a s i s t h a t they were e x p e r i e n c i n g s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r m a r r i a g e t h e i r own r e c k o n i n g .  They were l o c a t e d t h r o u g h  f r i e n d s and c o l l e a g u e s .  Each p e r s o n  ( c o - r e s e a r c h e r ) was asked  t h e s t o r y of s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r m a r r i a g e . were t a p e - r e c o r d e d , phenomenological  personal r e f e r r a l s  by  from  to t e l l  The i n - d e p t h i n t e r v i e w s  t r a n s c r i b e d and a n a l y z e d u s i n g an e x i s t e n t i a l -  a p p r o a c h as o u t l i n e d by C o l a i z z i  (1978).  The p r o t o c o l a n a l y s i s r e s u l t e d i n the e x p l i c a t i o n of f i f t e e n themes.  The themes ( o r c o n s t i t u e n t s ) were d e s c r i b e d and t h e n woven i n t o  an e x h a u s t i v e p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l satisfaction.  d e s c r i p t i o n o f the e x p e r i e n c e  of m a r i t a l  F i n a l l y a c o n c i s e d e s c r i p t i o n of the e x p e r i e n c e  was  formulated. The r e s u l t s o f the s t u d y show t h a t t h e r e i s a consensus of the experience  and meaning o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n by t h o s e ( t h e  c o - r e s e a r c h e r s ) l i v i n g the e x p e r i e n c e .  The s t u d y makes s u g g e s t i o n s  f u t u r e r e s e a r c h and p o i n t s out a p p l i c a t i o n s o f the r e s u l t s i n p r e - m a r i t a l and c o u p l e s c o u n s e l l i n g .  for  - iii  -  TABLE OF CONTENTS  Page ABSTRACT  ......  TABLE OF CONTENTS  i  -  i  i i i  ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS  iv  DEDICATION  v i  CHAPTER I INTRODUCTION  1  O b j e c t i v e o f t h e Study S i g n i f i c a n c e o f t h e Study P e r s o n a l E x p l i c a t i o n o f Assumptions  1 2 8  .  ..  CHAPTER I I REVIEW OF RELATED LITERATURE  11  Introduction Overview o f R e s e a r c h on M a r i t a l S a t i s f a c t i o n . T h e o r i e s of M a r i t a l S a t i s f a c t i o n . P s y c h o a n a l y t i c Theory Classical Object R e l a t i o n s Conclusion • B a s i c Assumptions  11 13 22 22 22 24 26 28  S y m b o l i c I n t e r a c t i o n Theory B a s i c Assumptions  29 35  S o c i a l Exchange Theory B a s i c Assumptions  36 40  B e h a v i o r a l Theory  41  B a s i c Assumptions Summary o f T h e o r i e s  «,  44 •  45  CHAPTER I I I METHOD  47  Existential-Phenomenological Psychology Co-researchers S e l e c t i o n of C o - r e s e a r c h e r s D e c i d i n g Whether t o I n t e r v i e w I n d i v i d u a l s o r Couple  47 49 49 51  - iv-  Page Demographic I n f o r m a t i o n  52  Phenomenological Interview Procedure Analysis of Protocols  53 54 56  CHAPTER IV RESULTS  58  Introduction D e s c r i p t i o n o f Themes o f the E x p e r i e n c e Exhaustive D e s c r i p t i o n of the Experience of Marital Satisfaction Introduction Exhaustive D e s c r i p t i o n Condensed D e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e E x p e r i e n c e of M a r i t a l S a t i s f a c t i o n  58 61 68 68 70 78  CHAPTER V DISCUSSION  81  Summary Personal Dialogue Thoretical Implications Implications f o r Counselling I m p l i c a t i o n s f o r Future Research Conclusions  81 82 83 86 89 90  REFERENCES TABLE 2:  92 S i g n i f i c a n t Statements  APPENDIX A: APPENDIX B:  L e t t e r o f I n t r o d u c t i o n and S u b j e c t Consent Form Co-researchers' Protocols  99  109 I l l  - v -  ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS  I owe s p e c i a l  t h a n k s t o my f i v e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s f o r t h e i r time and  e f f o r t i n sharing a special stories  p a r t o f t h e i r l i v e s w i t h me.  their  o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n t h i s s t u d y would not have been p o s s i b l e .  I would a l s o l i k e t o warmly t h a n k my committee  c h a i r m a n , D r . Marv  Westwood, f o r h i s t i m e , a d v i c e and e v e r p r e s e n t a b i l i t y exchange  Without  t o l i s t e n and  Ideas l n a s u p p o r t i v e and f r i e n d l y manner.  My two o t h e r committee members, D r . L a r r y Cochran and D r . Bob A r m s t r o n g , were v e r y much a p p r e c i a t e d f o r always b e i n g a v a i l a b l e on s h o r t n o t i c e t o o f f e r g u i d a n c e and s u p p o r t .  - vi -  DEDICATION  To my son Ryan  - vii -  A l l happy families resemble each other; every unhappy family is unhappy in i t s own way.  Anna Karenin Count Leo Tolstoy, 1904  - 1 -  CHAPTER I  INTRODUCTION  Objective of the Study When two people are under the influence of the most violent, most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions, they are required to swear that they w i l l remain in that excited, abnormal, and exhausting condition continuously until death do them part. Thus wrote George Bernard Shaw in 1908 in the preface to his play Getting Married.  If the marital relationship is based on such a  seemingly irrational footing (according to Shaw) how is i t that some marriages can survive the current statistics of record high divorce rates?  Statistics Canada reported that in 1982 some 70,436 divorces  were granted in Canada, more than double the 32,389 granted ten years before.  Canada's divorce rate in 1982 soared 117 percent over  1972.  Divorces involved 65,000 dependent children, up from 37,500 in 1972 (Statistics Canada, 1982). Divorce rates indicate only those marriages that have reached the point of being intolerable for one or both partners.  Many marriages  remain Intact only because of social pressures, financial constraints, children, edicts of religion or lack of attractive alternatives rather than any inherent desirability.  That i s , as Lewis and Spanier (1979)  point out, "marriages with high stability cannot be assumed to have high quality" (p. 272).  - 2 -  What e x a c t l y i s the phenomenon of " m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n " t h a t m a r r i a g e of q u a l i t y o f f e r s ?  a  What c o n s t i t u t e s t h i s sought a f t e r  e x p e r i e n c e t h a t so many m a r r i a g e s f a i l  to a c h i e v e ?  The  purpose of  this  s t u d y i s t o b e t t e r u n d e r s t a n d what i t i s i n a m a r i t a l dyad t h a t not keeps the c o u p l e t o g e t h e r marriage. marital  only  but o f f e r s them s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r  T h i s s t u d y p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l l y i n v e s t i g a t e the e x p e r i e n c e  of  satisfaction.  Significance of the Study Divorce  rates indicate m a r i t a l s t a b i l i t y .  define m a r i t a l s t a b i l i t y i n t a c t or n o n i n t a c t . i s terminated  as "the  Strictly  formal  greatest  m a r i t a l q u a l i t y " ( p . 273).  S p a n i e r (1979)  or i n f o r m a l s t a t u s of a m a r r i a g e  s p e a k i n g , a s t a b l e m a r r i a g e i s one  by the n a t u r a l d e a t h of one  b e l i e v e t h a t "the  L e w i s and  spouse" ( p . 269).  which  They  s i n g l e p r e d i c t o r of m a r i t a l s t a b i l i t y They d e f i n e m a r i t a l q u a l i t y as "a  is  subjective  e v a l u a t i o n of a m a r r i e d c o u p l e ' s r e l a t i o n s h i p . . . . r e f l e c t i n g numerous c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s of m a r i t a l i n t e r a c t i o n and m a r i t a l f u n c t i o n i n g " 269).  L e w i s and  (p.  S p a n i e r (1979) s u g g e s t t h a t " h i g h m a r i t a l q u a l i t y i s  a s s o c i a t e d w i t h good judgement, adequate c o m m u n i c a t i o n , a h i g h l e v e l m a r i t a l h a p p i n e s s and  a d j u s t m e n t , i n t e g r a t i o n , and  s a t i s f a c t i o n w i t h the r e l a t i o n s h i p " ( p . 269). been r e c o g n i z e d  as one  of  a h i g h degree of  Marital satisfaction  of a number of c o n c e p t s t h a t r e s e a r c h e r s  has  have  used t o s t u d y m a r i t a l q u a l i t y or h a p p i n e s s . Burr  (1973) s t a t e d t h a t " s a t i s f a c t i o n i s a s u b j e c t i v e phenomenon  that occurs w i t h i n i n d i v i d u a l s " (p. 42).  He  defines  marital  - 3 -  s a t i s f a c t i o n as " t h e degree t o w h i c h t h e d e s i r e s o f t h e i n d i v i d u a l a r e fulfilled  . . . s a t i s f a c t i o n w i t h a marriage  s i t u a t i o n as a w h o l e .  . . . t h i s phenomenon i s viewed as a c o n t i n o u s v a r i a b l e v a r y i n g i n degrees f r o m low t o h i g h s a t i s f a c t i o n "  ( p . 4 2 ) . A n o t h e r i n v e s t i g a t o r of  m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n who has attempted  a d e f i n i t i o n i s Hawkins  (1968).  H i s c o n c e p t i o n of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s t h a t : Marital  s a t i s f a c t i o n may be d e f i n e d as the s u b j e c t i v e f e e l i n g s  of h a p p i n e s s ,  s a t i s f a c t i o n , and p l e a s u r e e x p e r i e n c e d  by a  spouse when c o n s i d e r i n g a l l c u r r e n t a s p e c t s o f h i s [ s i c ] marriage.  T h i s v a r i a b l e i s c o n c e i v e d as a c o n t i n u u m  f r o m much s a t i s f a c t i o n t o much d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n .  running  Marital  s a t i s f a c t i o n i s c l e a r l y an a t t i t u d i n a l v a r i a b l e and, t h u s , i s a p r o p e r t y of i n d i v i d u a l  spouses.  ...  i t i s a global  measurement i n t h e sense t h a t the r e s p o n d e n t i s asked t o express  h i s [ s i c ] f e e l i n g s of s a t i s f a c t i o n o r d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n  r e g a r d i n g l a r g e numbers o f s p e c i f i c f a c e t s o f t h e m a r r i a g e responding  t o a few q u e s t i o n s phrased  by  very g e n e r a l l y , ( p .  648) I n h i s r e v i e w and i n t e g r a t i o n of r e s e a r c h i n m a r r i a g e ,  Tharp  ( 1 9 6 3 ) , wondered about t h e r e a l meaning of t h e s u b j e c t i v e phenomenon o f marital satisfaction.  He s t a t e d , " c e r t a i n l y  s a t i s f a c t i o n now seems  perhaps t a u t o l o g i c a l l y .  But s a t i s f a c t i o n o f  related  to happiness,  what?"  ( p . 1 1 4 ) . A number of o t h e r r e s e a r c h e r s have noted t h e  d i f f i c u l t y i n c o n c e p t u a l i z i n g m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n ( H i c k s and P i a t t , 1970;  S p a n i e r and C o l e , 1976; S p a n i e r and L e w i s , 1980; and B u r r , L e i g h ,  Day and C o n s t a n t i n e , 1 9 7 9 ) .  B u r r e t a l . (1979) c l a r i f y t h e s i t u a t i o n  -  4  -  somewhat by p o i n t i n g out a g e n e r a l i n c o n s i s t e n c y i n the r e s e a r c h t h a t they have  noted. We  w i s h i t were an easy t a s k to d e f i n e the dependent  v a r i a b l e of s a t i s f a c t i o n , o r t h a t t h e r e were o n l y one definitions i s the c a s e .  t o choose from. The  t a s k i s complex and  denotes.  what has been done, and two  two  U n f o r t u n a t e l y , however, n e i t h e r  p o s s i b l e a t t h i s time to a c h i e v e term " s a t i s f a c t i o n "  or  i t i s probably  not  a consensus about what the  There i s a m b i g u i t y  i n much of  among the unambiguous d e f i n i t i o n s  are  f a i r l y i n c o m p a t i b l e p o i n t s of v i e w . One  p o i n t of v i e w i s t h a t s a t i s f a c t i o n  i s the amount of  congruence between the e x p e c t a t i o n s a p e r s o n has rewards the p e r s o n a c t u a l l y The  and  receives..  o t h e r p o i n t of v i e w i s t h a t s a t i s f a c t i o n  s u b j e c t i v e l y experienced  phenomenon of p l e a s u r e  d i s p l e a s u r e , contentment v e r s u s d i s c o n t e n t m e n t , versus unhappiness.  (p.  the  is a  versus or happiness  67)  I n t h e i r r e v i e w of r e s e a r c h on m a r i t a l h a p p i n e s s and  stability  the s i x t i e s H i c k s and P i a t t (1970) d i s c u s s e d the d i f f i c u l t i e s conceptualizing marital satisfaction.  in  A decade l a t e r S p a n i e r and  (1980) d i d a r e v i e w of r e s e a r c h on m a r i t a l q u a l i t y  in  Lewis  i n the s e v e n t i e s  and  s t a t e d t h a t s i n c e the H i c k s and P i a t t r e v i e w of the s i x t i e s " t h e r e i s still 836).  considerable d e f i n i t i o n a l ambiguity  i n t h i s a r e a of s t u d y "  (p.  T h i s , however, has not been from a l a c k of e f f o r t as " d u r i n g  the  decade of the 1970's a l o n e , t h e r e were some 150 a r t i c l e s p u b l i s h e d w h i c h primarily  examined the q u a l i t y  of m a r r i a g e .  In a d d i t i o n to  these  - 5 -  articles in professional journals, 182 American doctoral dissertations completed during the decade included one of the above concepts in the dissertation t i t l e " (marital quality and related concepts—adjustment, happiness, and satisfaction) [italics added] (Spanier and Lewis, 1980,, p. 825). This definitional and conceptual turmoil prompted Lively (1969) to suggest that the three terms in marital interaction that he reviewed (marital happiness, success and adjustment) could be eliminated from the literature due to their semantic distortion and numbered  connotations.  After a l l that was said and done in research on marital quality in the 70's Spanier and Lewis (1980), stated that, "one of the more significant developments in marital research in the seventies has been the implicit recognition that the quality of marriage involves phenomena" (p. 826).  multidimensional  The author of this research feels that the most  significant and all-encompassing variable is that of marital satisfaction. Burr et a l . (1979), when discussing Lewis and Spanier's (1979) theory of marital quality and stability, suggest that the notion of satisfaction be used rather than Lewis and Spanier's term quality. They feel that i t is a person's subjective evaluation of the marital relationship that is the important phenomenon and that the term satisfaction adquately portrays these subjective evaluations. Thus, for this researcher, the reason for approaching the dependent variable of marital satisfaction from a phenomenological perspective came from the finding that there is not an exhaustive nor concise description in the literature of exactly what marital satisfaction i s .  - 6 -  T h i s approach i s a l s o supported  by S p a n i e r and L e w i s ' s  (1980)  t h a t s u r v e y r e s e a r c h t e c h n i q u e s have dominated the f i e l d and a l t h o u g h s u r v e y r e s e a r c h i s i m p o r t a n t , " t h e f i e l d must t r y directions"  ( p . 838).  phenomenological humanistic. to  date has  A l s o , approaching  statement that  new  m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n from a  p e r s p e c t i v e i s , to t h i s r e s e a r c h e r , v i b r a n t and  That i s , much of the r e s e a r c h on m a r i t a l  satisfaction  f o l l o w e d the p a t h of the n a t u r a l s c i e n c e s w i t h the emphasis  on the e x p e r i m e n t a l method. T h i s has r e s u l t e d i n an a p p r o a c h t h a t c o n c e n t r a t e s upon measurement r a t h e r t h a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g  human e x p e r i e n c e  as i t i s l i v e d . That i s , as i n the second p o i n t of v i e w noted [p.  by B u r r e t a l . (1979)  4 of t h i s p a p e r ] the e x p e r i m e n t a l a p p r o a c h s t r e s s e s a  positivity  t h a t i s i n c a p a b l e of r e v e a l i n g , f o r example, the dynamic i n t e r p l a y of p l e a s u r e and d i s p l e a s u r e .  The e x p e r i m e n t a l method tends  s e p a r a t e and m u t u a l l y d i s t i n c t and s t a t e s of mind.  Rather  c o n t r a d i c t o r y modes of b e i n g  or  than l o o k i n g a t d y s f u n c t i o n o r perhaps m a r i t a l  d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n t o l e a r n about m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n , t h i s i n v e s t i g a t e s marriages  t o v i e w them as  research  t h a t have an absence of symptoms of d y s f u n c t i o n  o r a t l e a s t have managed to d e a l w i t h these symptoms s u c c e s s f u l l y . Abraham Maslow l o o k e d a t f u l l y  functioning, fully  i n d i v i d u a l s to d i s c o v e r what people were c a p a b l e  "alive"  of becoming.  s e l e c t out f o r c a r e f u l s t u d y v e r y f i n e and h e a l t h y p e o p l e g e t a d i f f e r e n t v i e w o f mankind. grow, what can a human become? winners—the  You a r e a s k i n g how  "When you  ...  t a l l can  then people  These are t h e Olympic g o l d - m e d a l  b e s t we have" (Maslow, 1967,  p. 2 8 0 ) .  It i s this  you  ... 7  perspective  t h a t was  -  used to i n v e s t i g a t e the phenomenon of m a r i t a l  s a t i s f a c t i o n as l i v e d by i n d i v i d u a l s who  feel satisfied in their  marriages. W i t h a more d e t a i l e d and  p r e c i s e u n d e r s t a n d i n g of the e x p e r i e n c e  m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n researchers help  and  c l i n i c i a n s w i l l be b e t t e r a b l e  c o u p l e s work toward a s a t i s f y i n g m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p .  L e w i s and  S p a n i e r (1979) r e p o r t , " t h e  s t u d i e s argues p e r s u a s i v e l y  to  as  e v i d e n c e a v a i l a b l e from dozens of  t h a t i n d i c a t o r s of m a r i t a l q u a l i t y w i l l  e x p l a i n a g r e a t p r o p o r t i o n of the v a r i a n c e s h o r t , among any  For,  of  in marital stability.  l a r g e sample of m a r r i e d c o u p l e s ,  i t i s probable  In that  those w i t h poorest m a r i t a l adjustment, s a t i s f a c t i o n , happiness, e t c . , will  s u b s e q u e n t l y be most s u s c e p t i b l e t o s e p a r a t i o n  and  divorce"  (p.  273). M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n was i n v e s t i g a t e the m u l t i - f a c e t e d  the v a r i a b l e chosen t o p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l l y c o n c e p t of m a r i t a l q u a l i t y .  Marital  s a t i s f a c t i o n encompasses a l l the d i m e n s i o n s of such r e l a t e d v a r i a b l e s a s , f o r example, h a p p i n e s s , c o m m u n i c a t i o n , a d j u s t m e n t , c o m p a t i b i l i t y and integration.  I t i s t h i s researcher's  v i e w t h a t i t most e f f e c t i v e l y  a c c e s s e s a complete d e s c r i p t i o n of the e x p e r i e n c e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as i t i s a c t u a l l y l i v e d and 1978).  e x p e r i e n c e d ( V a l l e and  King,  -  8  -  P e r s o n a l E x p l i c a t i o n of Assumptions (Why  I am  i n v o l v e d w i t h t h i s phenomenon)  I became i n t e r e s t e d i n s t u d y i n g m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as a r e s u l t t h e f a i l u r e of my  own  recent experience  I began r e a d i n g e x t e n s i v e l y i n a r e a s of immediate  c o n c e r n to me  marriage a f t e r seven y e a r s .  As t h i s was  of  a very  w h i l e a t the same time l o o k i n g f o r a p o t e n t i a l r e s e a r c h  question. I began my parent  r e a d i n g f o r a y around the a r e a s of f a t h e r h o o d  f a t h e r s as I s u d d e n l y found m y s e l f i n t h i s s i t u a t i o n .  r e a d i n g I f o u n d a g r e a t d e a l of support coping  s t r a t e g i e s and  understanding  and  survival tactics.  f o r my  I a l s o was  d e a l i n g w i t h the g r e a t a r r a y of emotions I  own  t o be a b l e t o d e a l w i t h r e s e a r c h i n the a r e a  single-parent fatherhood. o f s e p a r a t i o n and custody.  T h i s l e a d me  d i v o r c e and  found t h i s r e a d i n g a t times  o l d son.  r e f l e c t i o n and situation.  of  w i f e was  i s s u e of  happened to my m a r r i a g e and  to d e a l w i t h the r e a l i t i e s of my v e r y c o n c e r n e d f o r the e m o t i o n a l  situation.  I  Even more  spent i n  s e l f - d i a l o g u e on what I read i n r e l a t i o n to my  was  f o r the  w e l f a r e of my  l i b r a r y time was  joint  so r e c e n t , I  to be v e r y e m o t i o n a l l y d i f f i c u l t .  I f o u n d t h a t much of my  my  i n t o the l i t e r a t u r e on c h i l d r e n  t h e n to the r e l a t i v e l y new  s e a r c h i n g f o r meaning t o what had  p a r t i c u l a r , I was  was  too much i n the m i d d l e of  A g a i n , because the s e p a r a t i o n from my  b e s t ways f o r me  From t h i s  assisted i n  I came t o r e a l i z e t h a t I was  experience  single  s i t u a t i o n a l o n g w i t h some  experiencing.  year  and  own  four  - 9 -  Having  d e a l t somewhat w i t h my  initial  concerns  re s i n g l e - p a r e n t  f a t h e r h o o d , j o i n t c u s t o d y , and c h i l d r e n of s e p a r a t i o n and d i v o r c e I t u r n e d to r e a d i n g about ways of f u r t h e r u n d e r s t a n d i n g  and  perhaps  h e l p i n g o t h e r s t o p r e v e n t what had o c c u r r e d i n my m a r r i a g e .  This  i n v o l v e d l i b r a r y r e s e a r c h i n the a r e a of p r e - m a r i t a l c o u n s e l l i n g . found  t h a t r e l a t i v e l y l i t t l e w r i t i n g and  field. was  r e s e a r c h has  I  been done i n t h i s  A theme t h a t emerged from the p r e - m a r i t a l c o u n s e l l i n g l i t e r a t u r e  t h a t o f the r o l e of v a l u e s consensus i n m a r i t a l a d j u s t m e n t .  t u r n e d to r e a d i n g Rokeach's (1973) work on v a l u e s and l i t e r a t u r e on the r o l e of v a l u e s consensus and adjustment.  From t h i s r e a d i n g I was  the  research  c o n f l i c t on  becoming c o n v i n c e d  I then  marital  that basic  ( i n s t r u m e n t a l ) v a l u e d i f f e r e n c e s were p r e s e n t i n my m a r r i a g e  that  perhaps c o n t r i b u t e d t o the f u n d a m e n t a l d i f f e r e n c e s and r e s u l t a n t difficulties. s t u d y of how  I began t h i n k i n g o f r e s e a r c h q u e s t i o n s r e l a t i n g to a c o u p l e s d e a l w i t h the i s s u e s of v a l u e s i n t h e i r  r e l a t i o n s h i p s and how  t h e y p e r c e i v e the r o l e of v a l u e s consensus i n t h e  s u c c e s s o r q u a l i t y of t h e i r m a r r i a g e s .  However, I r e a l i z e d  that marital  f a i l u r e ( o r s a t i s f a c t i o n ) c o u l d n ' t be c o n t r i b u t e d t o o n l y one There had  variable.  to be more.  Thus f r o m l o o k i n g j u s t a t v a l u e s I began t o r e f l e c t on what e l s e m i g h t be n e c e s s a r y  i n a m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p f o r a couple  m a r i t a l q u a l i t y or s a t i s f a c t i o n .  I was  convinced  to  experience  that values  consensus  p l a y e d a major r o l e and y e t I wanted t o f i n d out more about what f a c t o r s were needed i n a m a r r i a g e satisfaction.  f o r the i n d i v i d u a l s to  experience  I became aware t h a t the b u l k of the r e s e a r c h on  marital  - 10  q u a l i t y or s a t i s f a c t i o n focused  -  upon l o o k i n g a t v a r i a b l e s t h a t a t t e m p t e d  to e x p l a i n the d i f f e r e n c e s between m a r r i a g e s i d e n t i f i e d as b e i n g  " d i s t r e s s e d " or " n o n - d i s t r e s s e d . "  e f f e c t approach presented r a t h e r murky and understanding was  i n w h i c h the c o u p l e s T h i s cause  an o v e r a l l p i c t u r e , t h a t , f o r me,  confusing.  were and  remained  There wasn't, i n the l i t e r a t u r e , a c l e a r  of the meaning of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as i t i s l i v e d .  I  thus d i r e c t e d to the e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l method of  q u a l i t a t i v e r e s e a r c h by my  t h e s i s a d v i s o r s Dr. Marv Westwood  and  Dr. L a r r y C o c h r a n . I have i n c l u d e d t h i s e x p l i c a t i o n of why  I am  involved i n studying  the p s y c h o l o g i c a l phenomenon of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i n an a t t e m p t to a p p r o a c h the p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l aim o f making the r e s e a r c h e r ' s e x p e r i e n c e , p r e d i s p o s i t i o n s and This approach recognizes  possible biases v i s i b l e  t h a t man  being-in-the-world-with-others" Existential-phenomenology  i s "bodily-engaged, ( C o l a i z z i , 1973,  p.  own  to the  participating 132).  does not assume t o be so o b j e c t i v e as t o  technologically controlling.  As H e i d e i g g e r  w h i c h d i s c l o s e s , and  indeed  i n such a way  the D a s e i n  up,  that d i s c l o s u r e  i t s e l f b e l o n g s t o the mode of b e i n g t h i s b e i n g . The D a s e i n  be  (1982) s t a t e s :  . . . t h e r e i s t r u t h o n l y i f a b e i n g e x i s t s w h i c h opens  are such a b e i n g .  reader.  We  ourselves  i t s e l f e x i s t s i n the t r u t h .  there belongs e s s e n t i a l l y a d i s c l o s e d world  w i t h t h a t the d i s c l o s e d n e s s of the D a s e i n  itself,  (p.  To  and 18)  The D a s e i n H e i d e g g e r speaks of i s t h e German word f o r e x i s t e n c e , presence, how  literally  "there-being."  C o l a i z z i (1978) d e s c r i b e s the  A p e r s o n as o n t o l o g i c a l l y human, i s Dasein.  - 11 -  CHAPTER II  REVIEW OF RELATED LITERATURE  Introduction I n p r i m i t i v e t i m e s the m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p was based on the need f o r p h y s i c a l s u r v i v a l .  D u r i n g t h e H o l y Roman Empire  m a r r i a g e became a H o l y Sacrament t h r o u g h s t r i n g e n t Economic s u r v i v a l was the  19th c e n t u r y .  weakening  another force  a p r a c t i c a l one  canonical laws.  t h a t k e p t the u n i t t o g e t h e r u n t i l  F i n a l l y w i t h the i n d u s t r i a l r e v o l u t i o n and  of the c h u r c h ' s i n f l u e n c e  on s o c i e t y m a r r i a g e l o s t much of i t s  f u n c t i o n a l c h a r a c t e r i n terms of p h y s i c a l and economic (Lederer,  survival  1968).  Today m a r r i a g e has become a bond based p r i m a r i l y on and e m o t i o n a l needs.  D u r i n g the decades  i n the m a r i t a l bond was ( A p r i l 9, 1984)  dramatic.  The  of t h e 1960s and 1970s u p h e a v a l  " i n the l a t e '60s and e a r l y '70s m a r r i a g e , motherhood s c o r n e d by the c o u n t e r c u l t u r e ,  and r a d i c a l s " ( p . 8 9 ) . s o - c a l l e d s e x u a l r e v o l u t i o n , b o r n i n the mid-'60s and  c l a i m e d t o be the p r o d u c t of a f f l u e n c e , economic  psychological  As r e c e n t l y r e p o r t e d by Time magazine  and the " n u c l e a r f a m i l y " were g e n e r a l l y feminists  the  freedoms  married couples.  the p i l l  generally  and the s o c i a l and  g a i n e d by women, has impinged g r e a t l y on t o d a y ' s The d e f i a n c e of t r a d i t i o n a l v a l u e s , the s e a r c h f o r  s e l f - f u l f i l l m e n t and what appeared  to be a d i s d a i n f o r commitment  r e a c h e d i t s peak by the l a t e 1970s and w i t h the h e l p of more l i b e r a l  -  divorce  laws was  C l a r k , 1980;  12  r e f l e c t e d i n the r i s i n g d i v o r c e r a t e ( D e b u r g e r ,  L a u r e n c e , 1982;  o p e n i n g y e a r s of the  Time, A p r i l , 1984).  1980s the p o p u l a r  press  However, i n the  i s r e p o r t i n g t h a t "the  words t h e s e days are "commitment," " i n t i m a c y " and relationships"  (Time, p. 8 8 ) .  term c o i n e d by Tom  s a n c t i o n and  f a m i l y l i f e ( e . g . , The  Generation"  from "me"  the p o s i t i v e a s p e c t s  t o m a r r y . I n 1982  married  compared t o 200,470 o r 9.2  i n Canada 188,360 o r 7.6 per  1,000  p e o p l e per  people i n 1972  A l t h o u g h s l i g h t l y down from 1972,  still  1,000  got  (statistics  1982's m a r r i a g e r a t e  not drop t o the same degree t h a t the d i v o r c e r a t e r o s e . The  National  C e n t e r f o r H e a l t h S t a t i s t i c s ( U n i t e d S t a t e s ) , r e p o r t s t h a t weddings b i r t h s are up and  d i v o r c e i s down.  m i l l i o n couples  were m a r r i e d  s l i g h t l y t o 1.2  m i l l i o n i n 1982,  ( c i t e d i n Time, A p r i l 9, P e o p l e are s t i l l  r a t e s and  while  and  2.5  the number of d i v o r c e s  dipped  the f i r s t d e c l i n e i n twenty y e a r s  1984).  g e t t i n g married  gratification"  marriage confident  They r e p o r t t h a t a r e c o r d  i n 1982  spouse w i l l become t h e i r " b e s t emotional  of  W a l t o n s , On G o l d e n Pond, F a m i l y T i e s ) .  chosing  did  Even  appear to  I n s p i t e of the f r e q u e n c y of d i v o r c e t o d a y , many p e o p l e are  Canada, 1 9 8 2 ) .  (a  to "us"?  the m o t i o n p i c t u r e i n d u s t r y now  promote the u n i t y of the f a m i l y and  buzz  "working at  C o u l d i t be t h a t the "Me  Wolfe) i s changing i t s focus  a d v e r t i s i n g , t e l e v i s i o n and  1977;  and g e n e r a l l y e x p e c t i n g  f r i e n d , l o v e r and  (Ammons and  be a happy, s a t i s f y i n g and  P h y s i c a l , economic and  fulfilling  their  s o u r c e of p r i m a r y  S t i n n e t t , 1980).  that t h e i r r e l a t i o n s h i p w i l l  that  Couples  transcend  the  enter divorce  one.  s o c i a l s u r v i v a l are no l o n g e r s u f f i c i e n t  for  - 13 -  a marital relationship.  As B r o d e r i c k ( 1 9 7 9 ) p o i n t e d o u t , "one of the  consequences o f t h e e x i s t e n t i a l r e v o l u t i o n i s t h a t c o u p l e s have changed t h e i r s t a n d a r d s f o r a good r e l a t i o n s h i p .  Even among t r a d i t i o n a l  c o u p l e s i t i s n o t enough f o r each p e r s o n t o do h i s o r h e r d u t y ; l o v e and m a r r i a g e a r e supposed t o b r i n g h a p p i n e s s 49).  as w e l l as s a t i s f a c t i o n " ( p .  The i d e a o f m a r r i a g e f o r s a t i s f a c t i o n o r h a p p i n e s s  s e e k i n g a d i v o r c e t o p r o v i d e a spouse "room f o r g r o w t h " new  ( L a u r e n c e , 1982).  or the idea of are r e l a t i v e l y  Ammons and S t i n n e t t (1980) f e e l t h a t " s e l f i s m as  a m a r i t a l frame o f r e f e r e n c e l e s s e n s each p a r t n e r ' s sense o f r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t h e s u c c e s s o f t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p and promotes moving i n t o and o u t o f m a r r i a g e "  (p. 3 9 ) .  Even those who have e x p e r i e n c e d d i v o r c e g e n e r a l l y do n o t f e e l t h a t m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s an i m p o s s i b l e g o a l .  DeBurger (1977) commented  on t h i s by s t a t i n g : D i v o r c e p e r se does n o t i m p l y a r e p u d i a t i o n o r even a b e l i t t l i n g of the marriage  institution.  i n d i v i d u a l s t o pursue h a p p i n e s s relationship.  i nstill  Instead i t releases another  R e s e a r c h a l s o shows t h a t l i t t l e  marital  time i s l o s t i n  the t r a n s i t i o n from one m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p t o a n o t h e r . T w e n t y - f i v e p e r c e n t o f d i v o r c i n g men and women were r e m a r r i e d w i t h i n f i v e months; f i f t y p e r c e n t a r e r e m a r r i e d w i t h i n one year.  Overview  ( p p . 544-545)  o f R e s e a r c h on M a r i t a l  Satisfaction  The v a r i a b l e o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n has been s t u d i e d e v e r s i n c e H a m i l t o n ' s p i o n e e r i n g work on m a r r i a g e i n 1929.  I n h i s s t u d y he d e v o t e d  -  14 -  a c h a p t e r t o the c l a s s i f i c a t i o n o f h i s sample of 200 spouses as to a p p a r e n t degree o f s a t i s f a c t i o n o r d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n based on t h i r t e e n o f h i s questions  administered  by c a r d s but answered o r a l l y .  H a m i l t o n s t a t e d t h a t , "my s t a n d p o i n t  Interestingly•,  i s t h a t o f t h e p s y c h i a t r i s t s who  b e l i e v e t h a t s u b j e c t i v e phenomena, as t h e s e a r e e x p e r i e n c e d by t h e p e r s o n s who r e p o r t t h e i r o c c u r a n c e s , ( i t a l i c s H a m i l t o n ' s ) do not need t o be  t r a n s l a t e d i n t o anything  e l s e i n order  t o be d e a l t w i t h as  o b j e c t i v e l y as we d e a l w i t h a l l o t h e r b i o l o g i c a l phenomena" 1929,  (Hamilton,  p. x i ) . However, t h e b a s i c a p p r o a c h o f many s t u d i e s i s t h a t the  causes, determinants, or p r e d i c t o r s of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n are f i r s t hypothesized  by the r e s e a r c h e r  and t h e n t e s t e d t h r o u g h the use o f  c h e c k l i s t s , a d j u s t m e n t and r a t i n g s c a l e s and v a r i o u s instruments.  The u n d e r l y i n g  o t h e r measurement  a s s u m p t i o n o f t e n seems t o be t h a t m a r r i e d  p e o p l e a r e n o t r e a l l y aware o f what i s o c c u r i n g make them s a t i s f y i n g f o r them.  Therefore,  i n t h e i r marriages to  m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n has most  o f t e n been s t u d i e d by u s i n g v a r i o u s measurement i n s t r u m e n t s d e s i g n e d t o extract information  from s u b j e c t s ,  ( e . g . , Locke's M a r i t a l Adjustment  S c a l e , B l o o d - W o l f e Composite Index o f M a r i t a l S a t i s f a c t i o n , Terman's S e l f - R a t i n g H a p p i n e s s i n M a r r i a g e S c a l e , Snyder's M a r i t a l S a t i s f a c t i o n Inventory,  Roach's M a r i t a l S a t i s f a c t i o n S c a l e and S p a n i e r ' s  Adjustment S a l e . )  Dyadic  Such i n s t r u m e n t s tend t o measure the degree of  s a t i s f a c t i o n o f t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p and a r e n o t a s u b j e c t i v e e v a l u a t i o n o f it. The  m a j o r i t y of experimental  studies of s a t i s f a c t i o n i n marriage  s e e k t o r e l a t e i t t o a wide range o f b e h a v i o r a l , s i t u a t i o n a l and p e r s o n a l i t y v a r i a b l e s i n a c a u s a t i v e manner.  These s t u d i e s have  looked  at  marital satisfaction i n relation to:  congruence  of r o l e  perception  ( H o b a r t and K l a u s n e r , 1959; B u r r , 1971; L u c k e y , 1960; S t u c k e r t , 1963; Cohn, 1975/1976; Chadwick,  A l b r e c h t , and Kunz, 1976; F i s h b e i n and  T h e l e n , 1981), p e r c e p t i o n s o f p e r s o n a l i t y o f s e l f and spouse  (Luckey,  1964; M u r s t e i n , 1967; R a n d e r s - P e h r s o n , 1976; B e n t l e r and Newcomb, 1 9 7 8 ) , a m a r i t a l i n t e r a c t i o n c o m p a r i s o n of s t a b l e and u n s t a b l e m a r r i a g e s ( C l e m e n t s , 1 9 6 7 ) , number o f y e a r s m a r r i e d ( L u c k e y , 1 9 6 6 ) , b e h a v i o r a l a n a l y s i s o f ' i n s t r u m e n t a l ' and ' a f f e c t i o n a l ' b e h a v i o r s ( W i l l s ,  Weiss,  and P a t t e r s o n , 1 9 7 4 ) , t h e f a m i l y l i f e c y c l e ( R o l l i n s and Cannon, 1974; S p a n i e r , L e w i s and C o l e , 1 9 7 5 ) , m a r i t a l h a p p i n e s s as a f u n c t i o n of t h e b a l a n c e between m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n , m a r i t a l t e n s i o n s and m a r i t a l c o m p a n i o n s h i p ( H a w k i n s , 1968; M a r i n i , 1 9 7 6 ) , d y a d i c s a t i s f a c t i o n as a component o f a d y a d i c a d j u s t m e n t s c a l e ( S p a n i e r , 1 9 7 6 ) , a d e v e l o p m e n t a l model o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i n c l u d i n g r o l e t r a n s i t i o n s ,  anticipatory  s o c i a l i z a t i o n , l e n g t h o f m a r r i a g e , number of c h i l d r e n , c h i l d s p a c i n g , f a m i l y s o c i o e c o n o m i c s t a t u s and c o m p a n i o n s h i p ( M i l l e r ,  1976),  s e l f - d i s c l o s u r e ( B u r k e , Weir and H a r r i s o n , 1976; Cozby, 1972; F r e e d , 1974; G i l b e r t , 1976), husband-wife h e l p i n g r e l a t i o n s h i p s (Burke and W e i r , 1 9 7 7 ) , c o m p a r i s o n l e v e l between one's m a r i t a l e x p e c t a t i o n s and one's m a r i t a l outcomes ( L e n t h a l l , 1 9 7 7 ) , m u l t i v a r i a t e  correlates:  f a m i l y income, husband's o c c u p a t i o n a l p r e s t i g e , y e a r s o f s c h o o l c o m p l e t e d , d u r a t i o n o f m a r r i a g e , a g e , age a t m a r r i a g e , c h u r c h a t t e n d a n c e , p r e s e n c e o f c h i l d r e n , w i f e ' s employment o u t s i d e o f t h e home ( G l e n n and Weaver, 1978; S n y d e r , 1979), b e i n g m a r r i e d f o r f i f t y y e a r s ( S p o r a k o w s k i and Hughston,  o r more  1 9 7 8 ) , spouses consensus of v a l u e s  - 16 -  ( K i n d e l a n and M c C a r r e y , 1979; Maas and F e a t h e r s t o n a u g h , 1979; Khan and S h a r p l e y , 1980; Rambo, West and H e r i t a g e , 1980; M e d l i n g and  McCarrey  )  1 9 8 1 ) , the ' v i t a l ' m a r r i a g e as c o n s i d e r e d on the b a s i s of sex ( g e n d e r ) , r e c i p r o c i t y , d e t e r m i n a t i o n and commitment, and ego s t r e n g t h s (Ammons and S t i n n e t t , 1980), male-female  v a r i a t i o n s i n s a t i s f a c t i o n s (Ryhne,  1981),  m e n t a l h e a l t h ( R o g e r s , Young, Cohen and D w o r i n , 1 9 7 0 ) , m a r i t a l c o h e s i o n i n terms of exogenous v a r i a b l e s :  sex, (gender), r e l i g i o s i t y ,  esteem and endogenous v a r i a b l e s :  communication, comparison l e v e l  e x t r a f a m i l i a l I n v o l v e m e n t ( P i t t m a n , Price-Bonham,  self and  and McKenry, 1 9 8 3 ) ,  s c o r e s on L o c k e ' s M a r i t a l A d j u s t m e n t S c a l e and Terman's S e l f  Rating  Happiness S c a l e i n a l o n g i t u d i n a l study over f i v e years ( P a r i s  and  L u c k e y , 1966), and p a r t i c i p a t i o n i n m a r i t a l e n r i c h m e n t programs ( M i l h o l l a n d and A v e r y , 1 9 8 2 ) . In  t h e i r r e v i e w of the r e s e a r c h i n the s i x t i e s on m a r i t a l h a p p i n e s s  and s t a b i l i t y H i c k s and P i a t t (1970) s t a t e d t h a t "the most c o m p e l l i n g r e s u l t s s u g g e s t t h a t h i g h h a p p i n e s s i s r e l a t e d more s i g n i f i c a n t l y the  male t h a n t o female r o l e p e r f o r m a n c e .  the  male i n s t r u m e n t a l r o l e i n m a r i t a l h a p p i n e s s f i n d s s u p p o r t i n s t u d y  a f e r study" (p. 5 5 6 ) .  1  The c r i t i c a l  to  i m p o r t a n c e of  An e x t e n s i v e i n t e r v i e w s t u d y by B r a d b u r n and  N o e l (1969) found t h a t m a r i t a l h a p p i n e s s was h i g h l y r e l a t e d t o g e n e r a l h a p p i n e s s ; "somewhat more so f o r f e m a l e s " ( p . 2 0 8 ) .  They a l s o found  ^The r e a d e r w i l l n o t e t h a t i n r e p o r t i n g f i n d i n g s from e a r l i e r s t u d i e s the l i b e r t y has been t a k e n of assuming t h a t the terms m a r i t a l h a p p i n e s s and m a r i t a l q u a l i t y a r e a k i n t o the m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n of t h i s s t u d y . As H i c k s and P i a t t (1970) s t a t e , " i n the body of the r e v i e w , i t has n o t seemed f e a s i b l e t o d i s t i n g u i s h i n each i n s t a n c e the e x a c t c o n c e p t u a l d i s t i n c t i o n of each a u t h o r due to the enormous a m b i g u i t y w i t h i n as w e l l as among s o u r c e s " ( p . 5 5 6 ) .  t h a t p o s i t i v e and n e g a t i v e a s p e c t s o f s a t i s f a c t i o n were u n r e l a t e d t o one another, y e t both r e l a t e d to o v e r a l l The  satisfaction.  f o c u s o f s t u d y changed somewhat d u r i n g the n e x t decade.  S p a n i e r and L e w i s (1980) found i n t h e i r r e v i e w o f t h e s t u d i e s o f m a r i t a l q u a l i t y i n the s e v e n t i e s t h a t the two a r e a s t h a t r e c e i v e d the most i n t e r e s t were t h e e f f e c t s of c h i l d r e n o r m a r i t a l q u a l i t y and t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p between m a r i t a l q u a l i t y and t h e s t a g e s o f t h e f a m i l y cycle.  life  M i l l e r (1976) found a p o s i t i v e r e l a t i o n s h i p between t h e ease o f  most r e c e n t f a m i l y r o l e t r a n s i t i o n and f r e q u e n c y of companionate a c t i v i t i e s and m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  He found t h e v e r y l o w e s t l e v e l o f  s a t i s f a c t i o n a t the time o f the b i r t h o f t h e f i r s t c h i l d and f o r persons married s i x to ten years.  W h i l e r e s e a r c h e r s have a t t e m p t e d  to discover  new v a r i a b l e s n e c e s s a r y t o a c h i e v e m a r i t a l q u a l i t y ( s a t i s f a c t i o n ) , some a t t e m p t has a l s o been made a t t h e o r y c o n s t r u c t i o n . are reviewed i n the next s e c t i o n of t h i s  The major t h e o r i e s  study.  There has been an abundance o f q u a n t i t a t i v e r e s e a r c h e x a m i n i n g factors influencing marital satisfaction.  However t h e r e appears  t o be  o n l y t h r e e s t u d i e s t h a t used t h e q u a l i t a t i v e p r o c e d u r e o f e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l i n v e s t i g a t i o n to study m a r i t a l satisfaction.  These were s t u d i e s done by Laurence  and B r i l l i n g e r ( 1 9 8 3 ) .  Laurence  ( 1 9 8 2 ) , Beck (1983)  and Beck f o c u s e d t h e i r s t u d i e s on  m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i n couples w h i l e B r i l l i n g e r i n t e r v i e w e d individuals.  Laurence  i n t e r v i e w e d t w e n t y - f i v e c o u p l e s who had been  m a r r i e d from o n e - a n d - a - h a l f  t o t w e n t y - f i v e y e a r s w i t h a mean o f 6.81  y e a r s o f m a r r i a g e w h i l e Beck i n t e r v i e w e d f i f t e e n c o u p l e s m a r r i e d f o r  - 18 -  more t h a n t w e n t y - f i v e y e a r s .  B r i l l i n g e r ' s f o r t y i n d i v i d u a l s had been  m a r r i e d f o r a minimum of t e n y e a r s . L a u r e n c e (1982) i n t e r v i e w e d what he termed c o u p l e s " who  were s e l f - s e l e c t e d .  l a r g e l y phenomenological—he of  "happily married  He s t a t e s t h a t h i s framework i s  t a l k s about the " p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l  the r e s e a r c h — w i t h the raw d a t a a n a l y s e d " a f t e r the f a c t . "  spirit" Laurence  used two r a t e r s t o a n a l y s e the i n t e r v i e w t r a n s c r i p t s u s i n g the B e a v e r s - T i m b e r l a w n F a m i l y E v a l u a t i o n S c a l e s , t h e I n t e r p e r s o n a l Check L i s t and C o n t e n t I t e m A n a l y s i s .  From the q u a n t i t a t i v e a n a l y s i s h i s  r a t e r s f e l t t h a t the c o u p l e s p r e s e n t e d t h e m s e l v e s h o n e s t l y and b a l a n c e were h a p p i l y m a r r i e d .  The most q u a l i t a t i v e a s p e c t of L a u r e n c e ' s  s t u d y i n v o l v e d the C o n t e n t Item A n a l y s i s . s t a t e m e n t s from the i n t e r v i e w s . i n t o fourteen item c l u s t e r s . cluster.  on  He g e n e r a t e d 147  descriptive  From t h e s e he grouped i t e m s t o g e t h e r  He t h e n d i d a n e c d o t a l a n a l y s i s of each  F o r example, under the " s e x u a l i t y c l u s t e r , " he r e p o r t e d  one c o u p l e s t a t e d , " t h e r e ' s an e x c l u s i v i t y t h a t makes your special . . . i t ' s  something we  w i t h o t h e r people" ( p . 87-88).  that  relationship  share w i t h each o t h e r but don't s h a r e He went on t o comment t h a t c o u p l e s o f t e n  spoke of t h e i r s e x u a l b e h a v i o r as a "barometer" m e a s u r i n g the o v e r a l l e m o t i o n a l c l i m a t e o f the r e l a t i o n s h i p and t h e n quoted from one of h i s interviews. Male: wrong.  I t ' s l i k e a thermometer.  I t t e l l s us when something's  I t wasn't too many weeks ago t h a t we found o u r s e l v e s  getting into a l i t t l e  argument over how we were r e l a t i n g  s e x u a l l y t o each o t h e r , t h e n we d i s c o v e r e d i t wasn't a s e x u a l d i s a g r e e m e n t but something e l s e , so we hammered i t o u t . (p.88)  - 19 -  Laurence  summarizes h i s r e s u l t s by i d e n t i f y i n g  "ground"  descriptors  w h i c h he f e e l s are the f o u n d a t i o n s o r melody f o r h a p p i l y m a r r i e d people.  H i s ground  d e s c r i p t o r s were commitment, common s e n s e ,  p r a c t i c a l i t y , a w i l l i n g n e s s to assume p e r s o n a l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t h e i r l i v e s , humour, s t r o n g c o a l i t i o n s and boundary f o r m a t i o n , a warm and p l e a s a n t atmosphere i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p , and " c o u p l e Laurence  s t a t e s t h a t t h e s e d e s c r i p t o r s are elements  f o r m a t i o n and t h a t , "a s o l i d and g r o w t h - p r o d u c i n g as a c o u p l e are the f o r e m o s t 106).  constancy." of  identity  i d e n t i t y and  identity  c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s of t h e s e c o u p l e s " ( p .  He a l s o i d e n t i f i e s " s e c o n d a r y "  d e s c r i p t o r s which  he  m e t a p h o r i c a l l y r e f e r s to as the words each c o u p l e w r i t e s f o r t h e i r song.  He found the s e c o n d a r y d e s c r i p t o r s t o have a h i g h degree of  v a r i a b l i l i t y t h r o u g h h i s sample. c l o s e n e s s , mythology,  The  secondary d e s c r i p t o r s i n c l u d e d :  n e g o t i a t i o n , c l a r i t y of  communication,  invasiveness, c o n f l i c t , problem-solving, s e x u a l i t y , intimacy, chores, and s i m i l a r i t i e s / d i f f e r e n c e s .  These d e s c r i p t o r s are the s o r t of  t h a t a r e g e n e r a l l y c a t e g o r i z e d as g r o w t h , s e l f - f u l f i l l m e n t affiliation.  Laurence  items  and  p o s i t s t h a t the one element t h a t a l l the h a p p i l y  m a r r i e d people e x h i b i t i s couple constancy.  He says t h a t c o u p l e  c o n s t a n c y means t h a t : They show b o t h a s t r o n g sense of " b e i n g a c o u p l e " and a b e l i e f i n the a b i l i t y of the r e l a t i o n s h i p t o endure and  prosper.  F a i t h i n the a b i l i t y to t h r i v e as a c o u p l e and to master "storms  of l i f e "  anchors  them i n the w o r l d of o t h e r s .  t o assume p e r s o n a l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r the q u a l i t y of  the  Quick their  l i v e s t h e s e c o u p l e s show commitment t o the r e l a t i o n s h i p , a  - 20 -  willingness to work hard and to carve out possibilities for meaning in their relationship,  (p. 100)  Laurence is careful to point out that couple constancy i s not a trait but rather a multivariate construct. He feels that the couple constancy process begins very early in the relationship and that his couples stated that finding someone with (a) similiar goals (b) compatible values and (c) whom one has fun and simply enjoys being with are the f i r s t steps in the process of becoming a couple. Laurence's results were obtained primarily through the use of the three instruments.  He did not employ the phenomenological  process of  themes and exhaustive and concise descriptions of the phenomenon studied. Beck (1983) approached her study of the experience of the long term marriage relationship from a more purely existential-phenomenological stance.  She did a qualitative descriptive analysis of themes she  extracted from her interviews. Beck explicated six basic themes from the interviews. Couples described their relationship as (a) consisting of a continuing process of commitment which satisfied personal needs and thereby deepened commitment to the sustained relationship, (b) a sharing of self through self-disclosure that increases the desire to remain in the marriage and work toward i t s enhancement, (c) the building of mutual memories which were a significant part of their  long-term-marriage  relationship, (d) experiencing a distancing that occurs in the natural ebb and flow of l i f e and during crises, (e) experiencing a shifting from self-orientation to a oneness of being in the world while retaining  - 21 -  i n d i v i d u a l i t y , and others:  ( f ) a branching  outward of impact upon l i v e s of  c h i l d r e n , extended family and f r i e n d s .  B r i l l i n g e r (1983) was  not looking at marital s a t i s f a c t i o n per se  but rather at planned changes that i n d i v i d u a l s i n s a t i s f y i n g marriages make to enhance their r e l a t i o n s h i p . twenty male and twenty female, who years.  She interviewed  had been married  forty individuals, for a minimum of ten  She asked them what marital s a t i s f a c t i o n meant to them, as  applied to t h e i r own interviews.  marriage.  She  then developed themes from her  Her study had a phenomenological base as i t attempted to  gain an understanding of the phenomenon as experienced upon r e f l e c t i o n on t h e i r own  marriages.  The  by the repondents  themes i n the order of  frequency were (a) sharing and companionship, ( t h i s was  mentioned more  than three times as often as the next most frequently i d e n t i f i e d ingrediant, she reports.  B r i l l i n g e r also states that 78% of her  subjects "mentioned some form of sharing as contributing to t h e i r f e e l i n g s of well-being around the marriage" (p. 50). sharing of a c t i v i t i e s , i n t e r e s t s , values and goals, f r i e n d s h i p s , a philosophy  In the study, the experiences,  of l i f e , tasks, and r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s were the  most frequently i d e n t i f i e d contributors to people's s a t i s f a c t i o n with t h e i r marriage) (b) comfort, contentment, f u l f i l l m e n t , (c) support s e c u r i t y , (d) handling of d i f f e r e n c e s , (e) verbal sharing and  and  openess,  ( f ) f e e l i n g s of acceptance and closeness, (g) commitment to the r e l a t i o n s h i p , (h) autonomy, ( i ) s t i m u l a t i o n and growth, ( j ) enjoyment and excitment, and The  (k) trust and  respect.  above three studies looked at marital s a t i s f a c t i o n from varying  exlstential-phonomenological  perpectives.  In review, Laurence found  - 22  couple  -  c o n s t a n c y to be the most i m p o r t a n t  satisfaction.  ingredient i n marital  Beck i d e n t i f i e s s i x m a j o r themes of the e x p e r i e n c e  l o n g term m a r r i a g e r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h o u t  p i n p o i n t i n g any  p a r t i c u l a r , while B r i l l i n g e r c l e a r l y i d e n t i f i e s sharing c o m p a n i o n s h i p as the number one The  one  of  the  in  and  component of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  f o l l o w i n g s e c t i o n i s a r e v i e w of f o u r major t h e o r i e s as  r e l a t e to m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  they  A f t e r each r e v i e w t h e r e i s a l i s t  the b a s i c a s s u m p t i o n s of the t h e o r y .  The  f o u r t h e o r i e s reviewed  of  are  (a) p s y c h o a n a l y t i c theory, (b) s y m b o l i c - i n t e r a c t i o n theory, ( c ) s o c i a l exchange t h e o r y , and  (d) b e h a v i o r a l  theory.  Theories of M a r i t a l S a t i s f a c t i o n Psychoanalytic Theory Classical Psychonalysis  l o o k s a t m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p s i n terms of  the  d e v e l o p m e n t a l l e v e l of the i n d i v i d u a l p a r t n e r s o r the dyad. P s y c h o a n a l y t i c t h e o r i s t s tend t o s t u d y the i n d i v i d u a l or the dyad.  the i n t r a p s y c h i c p e r s p e c t i v e  C l a s s i c a l psychoanalytic theory  around f i v e s t a g e s o f p s y c h o s o c i a l development: s t a g e , (9 month8-2 y e a r s )  (c) p h a l l i c stage  p e r i o d , ( p e r i o d of r e s o l v i n g o d e i p a l r e l a t i o n s h i p ) and (puberty  to a d u l t h o o d ) (Kimble  Freud p o s t u l a t e d t h a t man t h a t are i r r a t i o n a l i n n a t u r e .  and  anal  (d) l a t e n c y (e) g e n i t a l phase  Garmezy, 1 9 6 8 ) .  i s g e n e r a l l y d r i v e n by i n s t i n c t u a l  drives  He based h i s t h e o r i e s of p e r s o n a l i t y  development on the s u b l i m a t i o n of the i n d i v i d u a l ' s s e x u a l and instincts.  centers  (0-8 months) ( b )  (2-4 y e a r s )  of  As i t r e l a t e s to m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n ,  aggressive  psychoanalytic  - 23 -  t h i n k e r s b e l i e v e problems i n a d u l t l o v e a r e grounded i n our c h i l d h o o d experiences.  Past l e a r n i n g , rooted  i n the Oedipal  the u l t i m a t e s o u r c e o f any i n h i b i t i o n s p r e v e n t i n g  c o n f l i c t , i s seen as the a t t a i n m e n t  of  m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n (Laurence, 1982). Freudian  theory  s t a t e s t h a t when the i n f a n t b e g i n s t o d i f f e r e n t i a t e  between h i m s e l f and t h e b r e a s t love objects. love.  t h a t f e e d s him he has the c h o i c e  of two  F r e u d i d e n t i f i e d t h e s e as a n a c l i t i c l o v e and n a r c i s s i s t i c  A n a c l i t i c l i t e r a l l y means " l e a n i n g up a g a i n s t " ( M u r s t e i n , 1976,  p. 24) and r e f e r s t o dependency and n u r t u r a n c e needs. a f f e c t i o n f o r t h e p e r s o n who f e e d s , n u r t u r e s  That i s ,  and p r o t e c t s .  Narcissistic  l o v e o r n a r c i s s i s m r e f e r s t o the i n f a n t t a k i n g h i m o r h e r s e l f as a l o v e - o b j e c t o r " t o f i n d a l o v e o b j e c t l i k e o n e s e l f ; t o f i n d someone who i s as one once was; t o f i n d someone t o l o v e who c o r r e s p o n d s t o an image one  would l i k e t o be (ego i d e a l ) e t c . "  ( L a u r e n c e , p . 7 ) . Freud  thought  t h a t o b j e c t l o v e o f the a n a c l i t i c type i s g e n e r a l l y c h a r a c t e r i s t i c o f the man w h i l e  the n a r c i s s i s t i c t y p e i s c h a r a c t e r i s t i c o f the woman.  Freud hypothesized foundation  t h a t the c h i l d ' s r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h i t s mother was the  f o r a l l f u t u r e l o v e r e l a t i o n s h i p s . "The c h i l d ' s a t t a c h m e n t  t o mother i s u n i q u e , w i t h o u t  parallels, established unalterably f o r a  whole l i f e t i m e as the f i r s t and s t r o n g e s t prototype  l o v e o b j e c t and as t h e  of a l l l a t e r love r e l a t i o n s — f o r both sexes" (Freud, c i t e d i n  L a u r e n c e , 1982, p. 7 ) . Kernberg (1976),  among o t h e r s , t h e o r i z e s about what i s c a l l e d the  p r e o e d i p a l p e r i o d o f development w h i c h i s q u i t e d i f f e r e n t from the o e d i p a l stage.  This period i s considered  t o be the f i r s t  t h r e e y e a r s of  - 24 -  life  d u r i n g w h i c h time c r i t i c a l  takes p l a c e . t h i s time.  Such p r o c e s s e s  f o r m a t i o n of the i n t r a p s y c h i c s t r u c t u r e  as s e p a r a t i o n - i n d i v i d u a t i o n o c c u r  during  The p r e o e d i p a l t h e o r i s t s b e l i e v e t h a t " a l l . k i n d s of  d e v e l o p m e n t a l d e f i c i t s i n t h e f i r s t t h r e e y e a r s p o t e n t i a l l y put t h e i n d i v i d u a l " a t r i s k " f o r f u t u r e problems i n i n t e r p e r s o n a l s a t i s f a c t i o n " (Laurence,  p. 9 ) .  Christopher Lasch (1979),  i n h i s book The C u l t u r e o f N a r c i s s i s m ,  l o o k s a t o u r s o c i e t y i n terms o f o u r a p p a r e n t c u l t u r a l i n a b i l i t y  to form  l a s t i n g and s a t i s f y i n g r e l a t i o n s h i p s . He f e e l s t h a t t h i s i s a r e s u l t of identity disorders i n individuals. to  i t i s more d i f f i c u l t  today  form a l a s t i n g and m e a n i n g f u l r e l a t i o n s h i p , t h e n , as L a u r e n c e (1982)  reasons,  i t w i l l be more d i f f i c u l t  satisfaction. according  f o r couples  to experience  marital  A s t r o n g sense o f p e r s o n a l i d e n t i t y i s n e c e s s a r y ,  t o E r i k E r l k s o n (1963),  intimacy. to  I f indeed  f o r h e a l t h y p e r s o n a l g r o w t h and  I t f o l l o w s , then, that s t a b l e i d e n t i t y formation i s important  the c r e a t i o n of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  As L a u r e n c e (1982) summarizes,  " p s y c h o a n a l y t i c models of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n c o n t a i n a s t r o n g d e v e l o p m e n t a l p e r s p e c t i v e w i t h m a r i t a l h a p p i n e s s a f u n c t i o n of b o t h i n t r a p s y c h i c and i n t e r p e r s o n a l f a c t o r s i n t e r w o v e n  i n a h i g h l y complex  manner a c r o s s many l e v e l s o f p e r s o n a l e x p e r i e n c e "  ( p . 13).  Object The  Relations  p s y c h o a n a l y t i c t h e o r y o f o b j e c t r e l a t i o n s has been a p p l i e d t o  m a r i t a l therapy  and r e s e a r c h ( B a r r y , 1970).  Barry s t a t e s that the  p a r t n e r s i n a m a r r i a g e b o t h have an " i n t e r n a l o b j e c t - r e l a t i o n system"  -  t h a t they b r i n g i n t o the m a r r i a g e .  25  -  He p r e s e n t s  a d e f i n i t i o n of o b j e c t  relations as: An o r g a n i z e d  schema o f c o g n i t i v e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s  existing  w i t h i n t h e system ego, i n c l u d i n g images and r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s o f the s e l f and i t s human o b j e c t s , t o g e t h e r w i t h  representations  o f needs and a f f e c t s c h a r a c t e r i z i n g t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p between them ( t h e images and r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s ) , w h i c h e v o l v e s the i n d i v i d u a l ' s c o n t a c t w i t h v a r y i n g p s y c h o - s o c i a l  out of contexts,  and w h i c h c o n d i t i o n s the i n d i v i d u a l ' s a c t u a l and f a n t a s i e d interpersonal interactions (p. 42). Meissner  (1978) a p p l i e s o b j e c t r e l a t i o n s s p e c i f i c a l l y t o m a r i t a l  s a t i s f a c t i o n with this  statement:  . . . the r e l a t i v e success experience  t h a t the m a r i t a l p a r t n e r s  and t h e manner i n w h i c h these d e v e l o p m e n t a l  tasks  a r e approached and a c c o m p l i s h e d a r e d e t e r m i n e d t o a l a r g e e x t e n t by t h e r e s i d u e s o f i n t e r n a l i z e d o b j e c t s and t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n o f i n t r o j e c t s w h i c h form the c o r e of t h e sense of s e l f and c o n t r i b u t e I n s i g n i f i c a n t ways t o t h e i n t e g r a t i o n o f their respective identities (p. 27). Object  r e l a t i o n s t h e o r y deemphasizes b i o l o g i c a l f a c t o r s . I t  c o n c e p t u a l i z e s human development d i f f e r e n t l y from psychoanalytic  theory.  Object  r e l a t i o n s t h e o r y as p r e s e n t e d  F a i r b a i r n (1954) r e p l a c e d t h e p s y c h o s e x u a l w i t h three developmental stages  classical  stages  by  of c l a s s i c a l  of object r e l a t i o n s :  theory  ( a ) the s t a g e o f  immature o r i n f a n t i l e dependence, ( b ) t h e t r a n s i t i o n a l phase, and ( c )  - 26 -  t h e s t a g e o f mature dependence.  These s t a g e s can be r e l a t e d t o the  m i d d l e - l e v e l t h e o r y of v a l u e consensus as a s o u r c e of p a r t n e r satisfaction.  Barry (1970), suggests  t h a t i f one i s a t t r a c t e d t o  a n o t h e r and does n o t have a d i f f e r e n t i a t e d o b j e c t r e l a t i o n s system, may imagine concludes  t h a t the person's  one  v a l u e s a r e harmonious w i t h one's own.  He  t h a t " i f i n f a c t v a l u e s do n o t c o i n c i d e and i f m a r r i a g e  eventuates, c o n f l i c t i s probably i n e v i t a b l e .  I f on the o t h e r hand, the  schema i s more d i f f e r e n t i a t e d , t h e n one can t e s t f o r c o m p a t i b i l i t y o f v a l u e s and a t t i t u d e s b e f o r e m a r r i a g e "  (p. 44).  Object r e l a t i o n s theory, then, s t a t e s that to understand one must c o n s i d e r h i s / h e r p e r c e p t i o n s of o t h e r i n d i v i d u a l s . on the i n t e r n a l i z a t i o n o f i n t e r p e r s o n a l r e l a t i o n s and how r e l a t i o n s determine  i n t r a p s y c h i c s t r u c t u r e i n the mind.  a  person,  I t focuses  these These  i n t r a p s y c h i c s t r u c t u r e s d e r i v e from " f i x a t i n g , m o d i f y i n g , and r e a c t i v i t i n g p a s t i n t e r n a l i z e d r e l a t i o n s w i t h o t h e r s i n the c o n t e x t of present i n t e r p e r s o n a l r e l a t i o n s "  ( K e r n b e r g , 1976, p. 5 6 ) .  Conclusion How  the p e r s o n a l i t i e s o f the m a r i t a l p a r t n e r s a f f e c t  s a t i s f a c t i o n has been o f c o n c e r n M u r s t e i n , 1967; R a n d e r s p e h r s o n ,  marital  t o some r e s e a r c h e r s ( L u c k e y ,  1964;  1976; B e n t l e r and Newcomb, 1978).  Kelly  ( 1 9 4 1 ) , however, was the f i r s t t o s t u d y p e r c e p t i o n o f p e r s o n a l i t y as i t concerns m a r i t a l f u n c t i o n i n g .  He c o n c l u d e d  from h i s s t u d y t h a t "an  i n d i v i d u a l ' s personal s a t i s f a c t i o n i n marriage  i s r e l a t e d to both  s e l f - r e g a r d and t o the judgement o f the s e l f ' s i n f e r i o r i t y o r  - 27 -  s u p e r i o r i t y v i s - a - v i s t h e spouse" ( c i t e d i n T h a r p , 1963, The  p. 9 9 ) .  e f f e c t s o f p e r s o n a l i t y f a c t o r s on m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n have  been s t u d i e d w i t h r e g a r d m a r i t a l dyad.  to n e u r o t i c tendencies of the partners  i n the  Tharp (1963) s t a t e s i n h i s r e v i e w " t h a t i n d i v i d u a l s '  n e u r o t i c t r a i t s a r e p r e d i c t i v e o f m a r i t a l disharmony c a n be a c c e p t e d as demonstrated f a c t " (p. 98).  Barry  ( 1 9 7 0 ) , i n h i s r e v i e w s u p p o r t s Tharp  i n s t a t i n g t h a t s t u d i e s have shown a c o r r e l a t i o n between m a r i t a l u n h a p p i n e s s and n e u r o t i c t r a i t s i n t h e i n d i v i d u a l . Barry  Again i n h i s review,  c o n c l u d e s t h a t m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s more r e l a t e d t o t h e  husband's background and p e r s o n a l i t y f a c t o r s than t h e w i f e ' s .  He s t a t e s  t h a t " s o l i d male i d e n t i t y , e s t a b l i s h e d t h r o u g h a f f e c t i o n a l t i e s w i t h the f a t h e r and b u t t r e s s e d  by academic and/or o c c u p a t i o n a l  s u c c e s s and t h e  esteem o f h i s w i f e , i s s t r o n g l y r e l a t e d t o h a p p i n e s s im m a r r i a g e f o r t h e couple"  (Barry, p. 47).  P e r s o n a l i t y f a c t o r s were a l s o i n v e s t i g a t e d by Ammons and S t i n n e t t (1980) when they were l o o k i n g a t what they termed " v i t a l They d i s c o v e r e d  marriages."  t h a t t h o s e c o u p l e s whom t h e y found t o e x h i b i t v i t a l  m a r r i a g e s had w e l l d e v e l o p e d ego s t r e n g t h as i n d i c a t e d by t h e e x p r e s s i o n of "a moderate need t o make i n d e p e n d e n t judgment and t a k e i n d e p e n d e n t a c t i o n s as measured by t h e Edwards P e r s o n a l sub-scale"  (p. 40).  Preference  S c h e d u l e autonomy  A l s o r e l a t e d t o p e r s o n a l i t y , t h e concept o f  homogomy ( l i k e c h o s i n g  l i k e ) has been a major f o c u s i n m a r i t a l  research  s i n c e P e a r s o n ' s comparisons o f t h e a n t h r o p o m e t r i c c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s o f spouses i n t h e 1890's ( T h a r p , 1 9 6 3 ) . I n summary, p s y c h o n a l y t i c  theory  on m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n has been  - 28 -  subject to very l i t t l e research. his  As M u r s t e i n (1976) makes note of I n  book, Who W i l l M a r r y Whom?, "Winch (1950) p o i n t e d o u t a g e n e r a t i o n  ago, t h a t t h e h i g h a b s t r a c t i o n s of F r e u d i a n t h e o r y l a c k o b s e r v a b l e r e f e r a n t s " ( p . 3 9 ) . M u r s t e i n quotes Winch (1950) d i r e c t l y w i t h t h e statement:  "one cannot o b s e r v e  an Oedipus complex, he can o n l y  observe  b e h a v i o r w h i c h he may then t r y t o i n t e r p r e t i n terms of t h e concept o f the Oedipus complex" ( c i t e d i n M u r s t e i n , p. 3 9 ) . P s y c h o a n a l y s i s bases i t s t h e o r y on the b e l i e f t h a t m i s s e d o r u n r e s o l v e d s t a g e s i n the development o f t h e i n d i v i d u a l a r e l i k e l y t o cause b o t h i n t r a p s y c h i c and i n t e r p e r s o n a l d i f f i c u l t i e s dyad.  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s viewed as a n o t h e r  developmental  f o r the m a r i t a l  a s p e c t of an i n v o l v e d  process.  Basic Assumptions of Psychoanayltic Theory 1.  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s grounded i n c h i l d h o o d  experiences;  e s p e c i a l l y those r e l a t e d t o s e x u a l and a g g r e s s i v e 2.  Love r e l a t i o n s h i p s i n a d u l t l i f e  instincts  a r e grounded i n one's e a r l y  c h i l d h o o d r e l a t i o n s h i p s w i t h one's p a r e n t s ,  ( i . e . Oedipal  conflict.) 3.  The f i r s t success  4.  three years of l i f e are developmentally  critical for  i n future interpersonal relationships.  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s related to a stable personal  identity  f o r m a t i o n i n f l u e n c e d by one's i n t e r n a l o b j e c t r e l a t i o n s 5.  system.  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s h i g h l y i n f l u e n c e d by the p e r s o n a l i t y development and sense of s e l f of t h e p a r t n e r s .  - 29  Symbolic Interaction Theory of Marital  -  Satisfaction  B u r r e t a l . (1979) d i s c u s s e d the h i s t o r y of s y m b o l i c t h e o r y b e f o r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e i r i n t e r a c t i o n i s t t h e o r y of Symbolic  interaction  satisfaction.  i n t e r a c t i o n i s b e s t d e s c r i b e d by p r e s e n t i n g t h i s quote  from  Burr et a l . : The  o r i g i n a t o r s of the s y m b o l i c i n t e r a c t i o n s c h o o l of  thought  r e l i e d h e a v i l y on the p r a g m a t i c p h i l o s o p h i c a l t r a d i t i o n t h a t grew out of the work of the B r i t i s h e m p i r i c i s t s Hume, L o c k e , and B e r k e l e y .  Pragmatism has i t s r o o t s i n the n o t i o n t h a t  phenomenon has meaning o n l y i f i t can be a p p l i e d to a s p e c i f i c s i t u a t i o n e i t h e r d i r e c t l y or i n d i r e c t l y .  I t argues  i s i n c o n s t a n t i n t e r a c t i o n w i t h h i s e n v i r o n m e n t and  that the  i n d i v i d u a l p u r p o s e f u l l y s e l e c t s the s t i m u l i t o w h i c h he respond.  man  will  P r a g m a t i s t s t r a d i t i o n a l l y examine the e f f e c t s t h a t  c o m m u n i c a t i o n has on r e l a t i o n s h i p s and t h a t a r e used to e x p r e s s i d e a s .  the meaning of s i g n s  They a l s o b e l i e v e t h a t  " t r u t h " e x i s t s o n l y inasmuch as i t has a p a y o f f or somehow "works" t o h e l p a t t a i n i m p o r t a n t g o a l s , In  order to b e t t e r understand  e l e v e n assumptions will  list  43)  the s y m b o l i c i n t e r a c t i o n t h e o r y of  s a t i s f a c t i o n as i t r e l a t e s to m a r r i a g e b a s i c assumptions  (p.  i n interactionism.  i t i s i m p o r t a n t to c o n s i d e r the B u r r e t a l . (1979) f o r m u l a t e d  based on t h e i r r e a d i n g s ( p p . 4 6 - 4 8 ) .  o n l y the b a s i c assumptions  This  review  as p r e s e n t e d by B u r r e t a l . as a  r e s u l t o f t h e i r s e a r c h of the l i t e r a t u r e w i t h o u t g o i n g i n t o d i s c u s s i o n of  each one  individually.  - 30 -  A s s u m p t i o n 1.  Humans l i v e I n a s y m b o l i c environment as w e l l as a p h y s i c a l e n v i r o n m e n t , and they a c q u i r e  complex s e t s  of symbols i n t h e i r m i n d s . A s s u m p t i o n 2.  Human V a l u e This  i n v o l v e s l e a r n i n g t o make e v a l u a t i v e  d i s t i n c t i o n s about s y m b o l s . A s s u m p t i o n 3.  Symbols a r e i m p o r t a n t i n u n d e r s t a n d i n g human behavior Humans d e c i d e what t o do and what not t o do p r i m a r i l y on t h e b a s i s o f the symbols they have learned  I n i n t e r a c t i o n with others  and t h e i r  b e l i e f about the i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e s e meanings. A s s u m p t i o n 4.  Humans a r e r e f l e x i v e and t h e i r i n t r o s p e c t i o n g r a d u a l l y creates a d e f i n i t i o n of s e l f I t i s a process of being oneself  aware and d e f i n i n g  r a t h e r than p e c e i v i n g a f i x e d s t a t i c  obj e c t . A s s u m p t i o n 5.  The s e l f has s e v e r a l d i f f e r e n t p a r t s ( a ) p h y s i c a l s e l f ( b ) s o c i a l s e l f ( c ) I ( d ) me  A s s u m p t i o n 6.  The human i s a c t o r as w e l l as r e a c t o r That i s , " o b j e c t s  become s t i m u l i when t h e y s e r v e  to l i n k impulses w i t h s a t i s f a c t i o n s " ( S t r y k e r , 1964,  p. 1 3 5 ) .  worth repeating  S t r y k e r ' s (1964) comment I s h e r e as i t p o i n t s o u t t h a t  a s s u m p t i o n i s b a s i c t o the t h e o r y  this  and i t r e l a t e s  t o t h e p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l approach of t h i s  study.  " I t i s t h i s a s s u m p t i o n which l e a d s to the f u n d a m e n t a l m e t h o d o l o g i c a l p r i n c i p l e of t h e t h e o r y , namely, t h a t  the i n v e s t i g a t o r must see  the w o r l d from the p o i n t o f v i e w of the s u b j e c t of h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n . interpret  I f men s e l e c t and  the e n v i r o n m e n t t o w h i c h they  respond,  an e x p l i c a t i o n o f s o c i a l b e h a v i o r must i n c o r p o r a t e these s u b j e c t i v e 1964, A s s u m p t i o n 7.  elements"  (Stryker,  p. 1 3 5 ) .  The i n f a n t i s a s o c i a l Human n a t u r e i s d e t e r m i n e d by what i s e n c o u n t e r e d and r e a c t i o n predisposition  A s s u m p t i o n 8.  Society  precedes  to i t rather  than  t o a c t i n c e r t a i n ways. individuals  P e o p l e a r e not b o r n i n t o s o c i a l vacuums, t h e society their A s s u m p t i o n 9.  Society  they l i v e i n always e x i s t s p r i o r t o arrival.  and man a r e t h e same  There e x i s t s a harmony between man and Individuals  learn a culture  society.  and become t h e  society. A s s u m p t i o n 10. The human i s i n d e l i b l e Man's b e h a v i o r i s a p r o d u c t of h i s l i f e  history,  of a l l e x p e r i e n c e , t h r o u g h communication w i t h others.  - 32 -  Assumption 11.  Man ought to be studied on his own  level  That i s , study human behavior, not rats, mice, monkeys etcetera. Burr et a l . (1979, p. 50) use Figure 1 to illustrate the process of how  people relate to what occurs in their intimate associations,  "reference relationships" and the reciprocal process. Figure 1  Societal Structural Variables  I  Mental Variables  Interaction Variables  Behavioural Variables  This approach to the study of humans is quite different from pure behaviorism (see behavioral section at end of Chapter II) which argues that there is a pure determinism between the stimuli that impinge on humans and their behavior.  Burr et a l . (1979) go on to identify a  middle-range symbolic Interaction theory of marital satisfaction that they say offers an alternative to the theoretical ideas of Spanier and Lewis (1979).  (see exchange theory in next section.)  The term  "middle-range theory" comes from Merton (1957) as cited by Burr et a l . (1979).  They report that Merton coined the term "when he was  arguing  that i t would be more f r u i t f u l for contemporary social science to concentrate on theories of modest scope rather than to develop "grand"  - 33 -  theories  that would explain  a l l s o c i a l or behavioral phenomena i n the  Parsonian (1951) t r a d i t i o n " (p.  61).  Burr et a l . (1979) formed t h e i r theory by analyzing research on role performance variables to i n t e r a c t i o n theory.  They suggest  and  empirical  s a t i s f a c t i o n s and  relating i t  that:  The most fundamental part of a d e f i n i t i o n of roles i s that they are more or less intergrated are distinguishable other r o l e s .  sets of s o c i a l norms that  from other sets of norms that  constitute  S o c i a l norms are b e l i e f s or expectations  people ought or ought not  behave i n c e r t a i n ways.  These  normative b e l i e f s are s i t u a t i o n a l i n that we believe ought to do things at c e r t a i n times and  that  people  under appropriate  conditions Burr et a l . (1979) have developed the following Proposition  1.  The  four  propositions:  perceived q u a l i t y of role enactment i n a  r e l a t i o n s h i p influences  the s a t i s f a c t i o n  i n d i v i d u a l s i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p have, and positive, linear relationship, Propostition  2. The  (p.  this i s a  69)  more important a role expectation i s to a  person, the greater the e f f e c t that the quality r o l e enactment has (p.  of  on that person's s a t i s f a c t i o n ,  71)  Role expectations have been defined by Burr (1967, 1971) " v a r i a t i o n i n the amount of s i g n i f i c a n c e or saliance  as  attached to  - 34  deviance  -  from o r c o n f o r m i t y to the e x p e c t a t i o n s f o r a r o l e "  B u r r e t a l . , 1979,  p. 7 1 ) .  T h i s r e f e r s t o the i d e a t h a t i f members of  the m a r i t a l dyad f e e l t h a t t h e i r m a r r i a g e o t h e r s c l o s e t o them, they w i l l marriage  (cited i n  i s comparable to t h a t of  tend t o be s a t i s f i e d ; i f they see  as b e t t e r o r perhaps worse, t h e y w i l l  tend to be more o r  their less  satisfied. P r o p o s i t i o n 3.  The  g r e a t e r the r e l a t i v e d e p r i v a t i o n of one's  s i t u a t i o n as a w h o l e , the l e s s one's w i t h the s i t u a t i o n ,  (p.  satisfaction  73)  That i s , i n comparing o n e s e l f w i t h one's r e f e r e n c e g r o u p , the more d e p r i v e d one  f e e l s the l e s s s a t i s f i e d one  P r o p o s i t i o n 4.  The  will  be.  amount of consensus on r e l e v a n t r o l e  e x p e c t a t i o n s i n a r e l a t i o n s h i p i n f l u e n c e s the s a t i s f a c t i o n w i t h the r e l a t i o n s h i p , and positive relationship,  (p.  this i s a  73)  That i s , the g r e a t e r the agreement on r o l e e x p e c t a t i o n s the g r e a t e r the s a t i s f a c t i o n .  I n 1957 Mangus s u p p o r t e d  t h a t "the i n t e g r a t i v e q u a l i t y of a m a r r i a g e  this proposition.  He  stated  i s r e f l e c t e d i n degrees o f  c o n c o r d a n c e s and d i s c r e p a n c i e s among the p a r t n e r s ' q u a l i t a t i v e  role  p e r c e p t i o n s and e x p e c t i o n s as r e c i p r o c a l l y r e p o r t e d by them . . .  It i s  taken f o r granted  the  t h a t the husband's and  m a r i t a l r o l e s of t h e m s e l v e s and w i t h the a d a p t i v e o r m a l a d a p t i v e  the w i f e ' s p e r c e p t i o n s of  of each o t h e r a r e c l o s e l y a s s o c i a t e d c h a r a c t e r of t h e i r m a r r i a g e "  As mentioned b e f o r e , L u c k e y ( 1 9 6 0 ) ,  S t r u c k e r t (1963) and  (p.  256).  others  have done e m p i r i c a l s t u d i e s on the r e l a t i o n s h i p between m a r i t a l  - 35 -  s a t i s f a c t i o n and r o l e p e r c e p t i o n and found a s i g n i f i c a n t  association  between consensus and s a t i s f a c t i o n . v  Interactionism, unlike  opposed t o a n a l y t i c  p s y c h o a n a l y s i s , emphasizes c o g n i t i v e  as  c o n s t r u c t s such as i d , ego, and superego as  i d e n t i f i e d by F r e u d , o r t h e c o n c e p t s of t h e u n c o n s c i o u s , d r i v e s , o r i n s t i n c t s such as t h e l i b i d o .  That i s , the c o g n i t i v e  make i n t h e i r u n i q u e s i t u a t i o n s  a r e the most u s e f u l  f o r u n d e r s t a n d i n g human and s o c i a l b e h a v i o r .  definitions  people  to i n t e r a c t i o n i s t s  Interactionists,  then,  b e l i e v e t h a t t h e most p r o d u c t i v e way t o s t u d y human s o c i a l b e h a v i o r i s t h r o u g h t h e b e l i e f s and v a l u e s t h a t p e o p l e g e t from i n t e r a c t i n g others.  They f e e l a s i t u a t i o n has meaning o n l y t h r o u g h p e o p l e ' s  interpretations "the  with  and d e f i n i t i o n s  more a n a l y t i c  of I t .  and i n t e r p r e t i v e  B u r r , e t a l (1979) t h i n k  branches of s y m b o l i c  that  interaction  b l e n d i n t o phenomenology" ( p . 43)., Thus t h e i n t e r a c t i o n i s t t h e o r y of s a t i s f a c t i o n i s based on the ideas of q u a l i t y of e x p e c t a t i o n s . jobs, friendships, application  o f r o l e enactment, r e l a t i v e d e p r i v a t i o n and consensus Although t h i s theory also applies to s a t i s f a c t i o n parent-child-relationship  to a theory of m a r i t a l  with  and so on, i t s s t r o n g  s a t i s f a c t i o n i s obvious.  Basic Assumptions of Symbolic-Interaction Theory 1.  Human thought and thus b e h a v i o r i s shaped t h r o u g h w i t h and l e a r n i n g one's e n v i r o n m e n t .  interaction  f r o m t h e symbols ( m e n t a l a b s t r a c t i o n s ) i n The mind emerges from  interaction.  - 36  2.  Human b e h a v i o r i s i n f l u e n c e d mind and  not  by  needs, d r i v e s  To  the meaning of i d e a s i n such as  libidinal  or a b u i l t - i n p r o f i t motive that  must s t u d y the  from i n t e r a c t i n g w i t h  Satisfaction within  are  a marital  s a t i s f a c t i o n w i t h and  are  energy, independent  b e l i e f s and  values  relationship  i s related  to  agreement on r o l e b e h a v i o r of s e l f  i m p o r t a n t to  that  others.  spouse i n c o m p a r i s o n to one's r e f e r e n c e group ( t h e o t h e r s who  the  An emphasis on m e n t a l phenomena.  u n d e r s t a n d humans one  i n d i v i d u a l s get 4.  by  i n s t i n c t s , forces  of t h e i r s i t u a t i o n s . 3.  -  and  marriages  of  them).  Social Exchange Theory L e w i s and marital  S p a n i e r (1979) have a t t e m p t e d to d e v e l o p a t h e o r y  q u a l i t y and  s t a b i l i t y based on exchange t h e o r y .  of  A social  exchange model v i e w s human b e h a i v o r as an exchange r e l a t i o n s h i p . i n t e r a c t i o n i n the  s o c i a l exchange v i e w p r e s u p p o s e s " t h a t  if  Human  the  p e r s o n a l p r o f i t from i n t e r a c t i o n i s r e w a r d i n g , t h e r e i s a b u i l d i n g p o s i t i v e sentiments, i . e . , a r e l a t i o n s h i p the  c o s t s of i n t e r a c t i o n are  will  ( L e w i s and  S p a n i e r , 1979,  of s o c i a l exchange has  been the  exchange models w i t h s t r e s s Weiss s t a t e s be has  T h i b a u t and  basis  reinforced  development"  Kelley's  (1959) t h e o r y of  " q u a s i - b e h a v i o r a l economics" (Weiss, 1978).  w h i c h are  v a l u e f o r the  relationship  f o r f u r t h e r development  that, " i n well functioning  exchanging b e n e f i t s ,  p r o f i t s , the  s l o w i n i t s growth or  p. 2 8 5 ) .  of  c o n t i n u e s to grow, whereas i f  l e s s t h a n the  t e r m i n a t e or a t l e a s t w i l l  up  r e l a t i o n s h i p s , partners  bolstered  other" (p.  by  189)..  the  should  f a c t t h a t each p e r s o n  - 37 -  L e w i s and S p a n i e r (1979) c o n s i d e r m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as a s p e c i f i c dimension  of m a r i t a l q u a l i t y .  F o r t h e purposes o f t h i s  study  m a r i t a l q u a l i t y i s synonymous w i t h m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n and t h e i r i s reviewed w i t h t h i s i n mind.  theory  I n b u i l d i n g t h e i r theory they s t a t e t h a t  t h e y i n c l u d e d any r e s e a r c h t h a t l o o k e d a t m a r i t a l a d j u s t m e n t , i n t e g r a t i o n , s u c c e s s , s a t i s f a c t i o n , commitment, o r o t h e r  happiness,  qualities.  S p a n i e r and L e w i s (1980) f e e l t h a t m a r i t a l q u a l i t y i s dynamic, n o t static.  I n t h e i r r e v i e w o f e m p i r i c a l s t u d i e s L e w i s and S p a n i e r  organized t h e i r theory of m a r i t a l q u a l i t y i n t o three general  (1979)  areas:  ( a ) p r e m a r i t a l f a c t o r s , ( b ) s o c i a l and economic f a c t o r s , and ( c ) i n t e r p e r s o n a l and d y a d i c f a c t o r s .  Under each a r e a t h e y put t o g e t h e r an  i n v e n t o r y o f " f i r s t - o r d e r , " "second-order,"  and " t h i r d - o r d e r "  p r o p o s i t i o n s t o a i d them i n t h e i r t h e o r y b u i l d i n g p r o c e s s . p r e m a r i t a l f a c t o r s , they developed  Under  twenty-five f i r s t - o r d e r propositons.  These came under t h e h e a d i n g s o f homogamy, r e s o u r c e s , p a r e n t a l m o d e l s , support  f r o m s i g n i f i c a n t o t h e r s and i n d e p e n d e n t  propositions.  Under s o c i a l and economic f a c t o r s were e l e v e n f i r s t  p r o p o s i t i o n s covering socio-economic household  first-order order  f a c t o r s , w i v e s employment,  c o m p o s i t o n and community embeddedness.  The a r e a of  i n t e r p e r s o n a l and d y a d i c f a c t o r s i n c l u d e d t h i r t y - e i g h t  first-order  p r o p o s i t i o n s d i v i d e d by t h e s u b - c a t e g o r i e s o f p o s i t i v e r e g a r d , g r a t i f i c a t i o n , c o m m u n i c a t i o n , r o l e f i t and i n t e r a c t i o n .  emotional  From t h e s e  s e v e n t y - f o u r f i r s t - o r d e r p r o p o s i t o n s L e w i s and S p a n i e r (1979) i n c l u d e d t h i r t e e n second o r d e r p r o p o s i t i o n s and t h r e e t h i r d - o r d e r p r o p o s i t i o n s . T h e i r t h i r d - o r d e r p r o p o s i t o n s r e l a t e s t r o n g l y to a s o c i a l theory of m a r i t a l q u a l i t y .  exchange  These t h i r d - o r d e r p r o p o s i t o n s a r e as  - 38 -  follows: for  ( a ) The g r e a t e r the s o c i a l and p e r s o n a l r e s o u r c e s  available  adequate m a r i t a l r o l e f u n c t i o n i n g , the h i g h e r t h e subsequent m a r i t a l  q u a l i t y , ( b ) t h e g r e a t e r the spouses'  s a t i s f a c t i o n with their  life  s t y l e , t h e g r e a t e r t h e i r m a r i t a l q u a l i t y , and ( c ) t h e g r e a t e r t h e rewards from s p o u s a l i n t e r a c t i o n , the g r e a t e r the m a r i t a l q u a l i t y  (Lewis  and S p a n i e r , 1979, pp. 275, 279, & 2 8 2 ) . From t h i s p r o p o s i t i o n a l i n v e n t o r y L e w i s and S p a n i e r developed  what t h e y have c a l l e d a t h e o r e t i c a l t y p o l o g y w h i c h makes use  o f a s s u m p t i o n s from t h e s o c i a l exchange framework.  The t y p o l o g y i s  a c t u a l l y one o f m a r i t a l q u a l i t y and m a r i t a l s t a b i l i t y . S p a n i e r (1979) do n o t s e p a r a t e the two d i m e n s i o n s " m a r i t a l q u a l i t y i s a major d e t e r m i n a n t 268-269).  (1979)  of m a r i t y  They s t a t e t h a t the model i s an attempt  an exchange framework i s u s e f u l f o r u n d e r s t a n d i n g m a r i t a l q u a l i t y and m a r i t a l s t a b i l i t y "  L e w i s and  because t h e y f e e l  that  s t a b i l i t y " (pp. to demonstrate "that the b a l a n c e  between  (p. 287). Their objective i n  d e v e l o p i n g the p r o p o s i t i o n a l I n v e n t o r y and t h e o r e t i c a l i n t e g r a t i o n was to  " e x p l a i n why some m a r r i a g e s  fail  and o t h e r s do n o t " ( p . 2 8 5 ) .  To f u l l y a p p r e c i a t e t h e development o f L e w i s and S p a n i e r ' s  (1979)  t h e o r e t i c a l t y p o l o g y i t i s w o r t h b r i e f l y r e v i e w i n g Cuber and H a r r o f f ' s (1965) p o p u l a r t y p o l o g y d e t a i l e d i n t h e i r book, The S i g n i f i c a n t Americans.  They c a t e g o r i z e d upper m i d d l e  c l a s s American marriages  as  e i t h e r (a) c o n f l i c t - h a b i t u a t e d , (b) d e v i t a l i z e d , ( c ) p a s s i v e - c o n g e n i a l , (d) v i t a l o r ( e ) t o t a l .  These f i v e t y p e s were based upon the degree t o  w h i c h c o u p l e s i n t h e i r s t u d y had a u t i l i t a r i a n m a r r i a g e w i t h an i n t r i n s i c  marriage.  A u t i l i t a r i a n marriage,  as c o n t r a s t e d  they suggest, i s :  - 39 -  Any m a r r i a g e  which i s e s t a b l i s h e d o r maintained  f o r purposes  o t h e r than t o e x p r e s s an i n t i m a t e , h i g h l y i m p o r t a n t r e l a t i o n s h i p between a man and a woman. continuous  personal  The absence of  and deep e m p a t h i c f e e l i n g and t h e e x i s t e n c e of an  atmosphere of l i m i t e d companionship a r e n a t u r a l outcomes, s i n c e t h e purposes f o r i t s e s t a b l i s h m e n t o r m a i n t e n a n c e a r e not p r i m a r i l y s e x u a l and e m o t i o n a l o n e s . . . . t h e m a r r i a g e i s u s e f u l t o t h e mates f o r r e a s o n s considerations,  outside of personal  ( p . 109)  They c l a s s i f y an i n t r i n s i c m a r r i a g e top p r i o r i t y over a l l other events  as one i n w h i c h t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p has i n the couples l i v e s .  The p r i v a t e  and p e r s o n a l d e s i r e s and needs o f t h e p a i r come b e f o r e a n y t h i n g The  i n t r i n s i c marriage,  else.  they s t a t e , has t h e u n i f o r m q u a l i t y of an  " i n t e n s i t y o f f e e l i n g s about each o t h e r and t h e c e n t r a l i t y o f t h e spouses'  w e l f a r e i n each mate's s c a l e of v a l u e s " ( p . 1 1 4 ) .  L e w i s and S p a n i e r ' s (1979) t h e o r e t i c a l t y p o l o g y i s c o n s i d e r e d an exchange t h e o r y as i t d e a l s "it  i s most r e a s o n a b l e  balanced  w i t h reward and p r o f i t .  They s t a t e t h a t  t o assume t h a t t h e f o r e c a s t o f f u t u r e rewards as  a g a i n s t f u t u r e c o s t s , as w e l l as the memory o f c u m u l a t i v e  rewards and c o s t s  throughout  the h i s t o r y of the m a r i t a l  do g r e a t l y a f f e c t b o t h t h e q u a l i t y and c o n t i n u a n c e  relationship,  of m a r i t a l  h  relationships"  ( p . 285).  Exchange t h e o r y t h e n , d e a l s w i t h reward and  p r o f i t as does i n t e r a c t i o n i s m but exchange t h e o r y does not d e a l w i t h o t h e r m e n t a l phenomenon and c o n t e x t u a l v a r i e t i e s whereas i n t e r a c t i o n i s m does.  - 40 -  S o c i a l exchange t h e o r y o f m a r i t a l investigated  s a t i s f a c t i o n has not been  as t h o r o u g h l y as has exchange t h e o r y o f d e v e l o p i n g  relationships  and human i n t e r a c t i o n i n g e n e r a l .  Edwards ( 1 9 6 9 ) n o t e s  that i n s p i t e of the p r i n c i p l e of r e c i p r o c i t y , marriages o f t e n  evidence  a s y m m e t r i c a l exchanges and c o n t a i n many d i f f e r e n t l e v e l s o f exchange r e s o u r c e s , rewards and c o s t s .  Basic Assumptions of S o c i a l Exchange Theory 1.  Humans a r e a l w a y s , c o n t i n u a l l y relationship.  p r o f i t s e e k i n g i n an exchange  That i s , a p e r s o n e v a l u a t e s t h e rewards and  c o s t s o f a g i v e n r e l a t i o n s h i p i n terms of t h a t w h i c h w i l l the most p r o f i t (most r e w a r d / f e w e s t c o s t s ) .  bring  A high l e v e l of  r e i n f o r c e m e n t a t a low l e v e l of c o s t . 2.  I f personal benefits  from a r e l a t i o n s h i p a r e p o s i t i v e t h e  r e l a t i o n s h i p w i l l grow, i f g a i n s a r e l e s s t h a n c o s t s , t h e relationship w i l l 3.  A c o m p a r i s o n o f t h e outcome o f a r e l a t i o n s h i p alternatives  4.  falter.  to the r e l a t i o n s h i p i s i n v o l v e d .  Whenever an i n d i v i d u a l has b e t t e r p e r c e i v e them), they w i l l the  5.  alternative  alternatives  ( a s they  leave t h e i r present r e l a t i o n s h i p f o r  t h a t o f f e r s the b e t t e r  r e w a r d / c o s t outcome.  S a t i s f a c t i o n i s based n o t o n l y upon reward and c o s t e x p e r i e n c e s in  the p a s t but a l s o upon a n t i c i p a t i o n o f rewards and c o s t s i n  future 6.  t o those of the  interactions.  In a successful  m a r r i a g e b o t h p a r t n e r s work t o maximize m u t u a l  rewards w h i l e m i n i m i z i n g i n d i v i d u a l  costs.  - 41 -  7.  A m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p i n v o l v e s a mutual behavior  8.  P o s i t i v e consequences tend t o i n c r e a s e r a t e s o f r e s p o n d i n g ; n e g a t i v e consequences d e c r e a s e  Behavioral Theory of M a r i t a l  shaping.  r a t e s of r e s p o n d i n g .  Satisfaction  B e h a v i o r i s t s f o c u s on the p r i n c i p l e s of l e a r n i n g t h a t shape human behavior. response)  They emphasize r e i n f o r c e m e n t c o n t i n g e n c i e s ( s t i m u l u s and i n the s i t u a t i o n s t h a t c o n t r o l b e h a v i o r .  w i t h developmental  They do not d e a l  n o r i n t e r n a l f a c t o r s such as u n c o n s c i o u s  conscious process.  drives or  Weiss ( 1 9 7 8 ) t a l k s about b e h a v i o r m o d i f i c a t i o n  p r i n c i p l e s i n r e l a t i o n t o m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p s w i t h the statement, " B e h a v i o r m o d i f i c a t i o n I s not a t h e o r y of human i n t e r a c t i o n s ; i t i s b e t t e r d e s c r i b e d as a t e c h n o l o g y d e r i v e d from l e a r n i n g p r i n c i p l e s ,  which  a r e q u i t e f r a n k l y mute on the i s s u e o f a t h e o r y of a d u l t i n t i m a c y i n l o n g term committed r e l a t i o n s h i p s ! "  ( p . 173).  B e h a v i o r i s t models o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n tend t o f o l l o w b e h a v i o r exchange t h e o r y w h i c h comes o u t o f T h i b a u t and K e l l e y ' s (1959) s o c i a l exchange t h e o r y as d e s c r i b e d p r e v i o u s l y . exchange t h e o r y a r e c l o s e l y r e l a t e d .  B e h a v i o r a l t h e o r y and s o c i a l  That i s , "an i n d i v i d u a l e n t e r s  i n t o a r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h a l e a r n i n g h i s t o r y as w e l l as a c o n s t i t u t i o n which p r e d i s p o s e s him/her t o f i n d c e r t a i n p a r t n e r i n i t i a t e d r e i n f o r c i n g " ( J a c o b s o n , 1981, p. 5 5 9 ) . B e h a v i o r t h e o r y  behaviors  has been  l a b e l e d b e h a v i o r exchange t h e o r y when d e a l i n g w i t h m a r r i e d o r co-habiting couples.  The d e f i n i t i o n of b e h a v i o r exchange has been  broadened t o the use o f the l a b e l , s o c i a l l e a r n i n g t h e o r y . (1981) p o i n t s o u t :  As  Jacobson  - 42  -  S o c i a l l e a r n i n g theory incudes i n i t s t h e o r e t i c a l • not  o n l y p r i n c i p l e s of l e a r n i n g d e r i v e d  o f e x p e r i m e n t a l p s y c h o l o g y , but from s o c i a l , d e v e l o p m e n t a l and the  influence  from the  contributions  cognitive psychology.  l e a r n i n g t h e o r y a l s o a t t e n d s to the  c o n t r o l of b e h a v i o r , ( p .  laboratories  also t h e o r e t i c a l  of the e n v i r o n m e n t i s s t i l l  e v e n t s ( t h o u g h t s , images and  formulations  While  emphasized, s o c i a l  r o l e p l a y e d by  f e e l i n g s ) i n the  private  regulation  and  557)  T h i s b e h a v i o r exchange p r i n c i p l e i s based on a r e w a r d / c o s t r a t i o w h i c h d e t e r m i n e s the degree of s a t i s f a c t i o n i n a r e l a t i o n s h i p and t o as the c o m p a r i s o n l e v e l ( T h i b a u t and  K e l l e y , 1959).  i s referred  Social  learning  t h e o r y i s c o n n e c t e d i n t i m a t e l y to b e h a v i o r i s m i n t h a t the " s o c i a l l e a r n i n g model p o s i t s t h a t the r a t e of r e i n f o r c e r s r e c e i v e d partner  d e t e r m i n e s not  a l s o the  only  the degree of s u b j e c t i v e  r a t e of rewards d i r e c t e d  558-559).  T h i s has  behaviors.  c o g n i t i o n s , and  partner"  the  s a t i s f a c t i o n , but (Jacobson,  pp.  been r e f e r r e d to as r e c i p r o c i t y .  Weiss ( 1 9 7 8 ) s t a t e s p e r s o n s and  toward the  from  t h a t the w o r l d i s p o p u l a t e d w i t h s i t u a t i o n s , He  s p e c i f i e s s i t u a t i o n s as s t i m u l i , persons  b e h a v i o r s as r e s p o n s e s .  W i t h t h i s premise the  R e s e a r c h Group c o n s i s t i n g o f G e r a l d P a t t e r s o n ,  as  Oregon  Robert Weiss and  others  d e v e l o p e d a c u b i c a l model of v a r i a b l e s a f f e c t i n g m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . . The  Oregon group c o n s t r u c t e d  t w e l v e a r e a s of m a r i t a l i n t e r a c t i o n i n  w h i c h spouses can d e m o n s t r a t e s k . i l l f u l n e s s , f o u r a r e a s of  relationship  a c c o m p l i s h m e n t , thought to be h i e r a r c h i c a l l y o r d e r e d , w h i c h i n c l u d e r o l e of h e d o n i c , s i t u a t i o n a l and  communicative f u n c t i o n and  four  the  stages  -  43  -  of the family l i f e cycle which emphasize differences in the requirements for interaction depending on where the relationship is in time.  From  this model the great complexity of marital satisfaction among persons (accomplishments), behaviors (interactional category) and situational variables (family l i f e cycle) i s made clearer.  According to the model,  marital satisfaction is attained through achieving a balance that permits each individual to maximize benefits while minimizing costs.  Figure 2  Companionship A f f e c t ion Consideration Sex Communication P r o c e s s >•  g o £ < ° z 2 tCE  £ z ~  Coupling A c t i v i t i e s C h i l d Care C P a r e n t i n g Household Management Financial  D e c i s i o n Making  Employment E d u c a t i o n P e r s o n a l H a b i t S Appearance S e l f 6 Spouse  Independence  c o ID  U —  *»  o> c  u  >  «*  U  •o c =>  E  —  U tl  o  •o  o o. a. 3  t> o  V  o> c  ^ i_  o >  •a «I  o. aa  ACCOMPUISHMEHT  Source:  Cited i n Laurence, L.T. (1982) from Weiss, R. (1978). The conceptualization of marriage from a behavioral perspective. T. Paolino and B. McCrady (Eds.), Marriage and marital therapy, (p. 205). New York: Brunner/Mazel.  - 44 -  G i v e n t h i s i n t e g r a t i v e model i t can be summarized t h a t i n a s a t i s f y i n g m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p p a r t n e r s are exchanging has  reinforcement value f o r the other (Weiss,  b e n e f i t s and each  person  1978).  On t h e o t h e r s i d e o f t h e c o i n , Weiss (1978) p o s t u l a t e s t h a t : The  f a i l u r e o f r e l a t i o n s h i p s i s thought  d e f i c i e n t reward e x c h a n g e s .  t o be e x p l a i n e d by  In f a c t , i t i s s a i d that the  reward system s h i f t s from a p o s i t i v e t o a c o e r c i v e c o n t r o l system i n w h i c h each p e r s o n a t t e m p t s reinforcement  t o coerce  positive  i n exchange f o r n e g a t i v e r e i n f o r c e m e n t s .  reward, l i k e s o l i c i t e d compliments, l o s e t h e i r v a l u e ,  Forced (p.  189)  Basic Assumptions of Behavioral Theory 1.  B e h a v i o r i s m i s concerned  w i t h how c e r t a i n c o n s e q u e n c e s , made  c o n t i n g e n t upon b e h a v i o r , l a w f u l l y r e g u l a t e f u t u r e b e h a v i o r . Human b e h a v i o r i s s u b j e c t t o c a s u a l 2.  Human b e h a v i o r i s c o n t r o l l e d by r e i n f o r c e m e n t the  3.  determinants. contingencies i n  situations.  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s a f u n c t i o n of c o s t / b e n e f i t , g i v e / t a k e exchanges between members o f t h e m a r i t a l dyad.  4.  In a marriage  o f s a t i s f a c t i o n each p e r s o n has r e i n f o r c e m n t  v a l u e f o r each o t h e r . 5.  Events  o f a r e l a t i o n s h i p add t o o r s u b t r a c t from  satisfaction.  - 45  -  Summary P s y c h o a n a l y s i s , s y m b o l i c i n t e r a c t i o n t h e o r y , s o c i a l exchange t h e o r y and b e h a v i o r a l t h e o r y as they r e l a t e t o m a r i t a l v a r i a n c e on a number of major p o i n t s .  s a t i s f a c t i o n are at  Very b a s i c a l l y , p s y c h o a n a l y s i s  h o l d s t h a t the mind i s the p r i m a r y e x p l a n a t i o n o f human b e h a v i o r . "Psychoanalysis ego,  . . . f o c u s e s on such a s p e c t s of the mind as the i d ,  superego and u n c o n s c i o u s  and  i t emphasizes i n s t i n c t u a l f o r c e s  as l i b i d i n a l energy and d e a t h w i s h e s "  ( B u r r e t a l . , 1979,  such  p. 4 7 ) .  I n t e r a c t i o n i s m , on the o t h e r hand, p o s t u l a t e s t h a t "humans d e c i d e what t o do and not t o do p r i m a r i l y on the b a s i s of the symbols t h e y have l e a r n e d i n i n t e r a c t i o n w i t h o t h e r s and importance  t h e i r b e l i e f s about  of these meanings" ( B u r r e t a l . , 1979,  the  p. 4 7 ) .  S y m b o l i c - i n t e r a c t i o n i s m d e a l s not o n l y w i t h rewards and p r o f i t , but a l s o m e n t a l phenomena.  This d i f f e r e n t i a t e s i n t e r a c t i o n i s m  from a s o c i a l  exchange t h e o r y , w h i c h i s based on rewards and p r o f i t o r s a t i s f a c t i o n s . W i t h r e g a r d to s o c i a l exchange t h e o r y , B u r r e t a l . ( 1 9 7 9 ) s t a t e : I f the p e r s o n a l p r o f i t from i n t e r a c t i o n i s r e w a r d i n g , a b u i l d i n g up o f p o s i t i v e s e n t i m e n t s , i . e . , a  relationship  c o n t i n u e s t o grow, whereas i f the c o s t s of i n t e r a c t i o n l e s s than the p r o f i t s , the r e l a t i o n s h i p t e r m i n a t e , or at l e a s t w i l l development,  (p.  probably  are  will  s l o w i n i t s growth o r  285)  S o c i a l exchange t h e o r i s t s always use the r e w a r d - c o s t assume t h a t human b e h a v i o r i s based on p r o f i t . suggest  there i s  c o n s t r u c t as  they  B u r r e t a l . (1979)  a t h e o r y such as t h a t of p s y c h o a n a l y s i s or i n t e r a c t i o n i s m  has  to  -  be used to e x p l a i n why  46  -  some t h i n g s a r e r e w a r d i n g  o r c o s t l y i n the  first  place. F i n a l l y , b e h a v i o r a l t h e o r y , as i t r e l a t e s to m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n , i s not a m i n d l e s s the m e c h a n i s t i c thoughts,  d o c t r i n a i r e behaviorism  use  that i s concerned only  with  of b e h a v i o r a l c o n t r o l , i g n o r i n g f e e l i n g s and  as i s o f t e n p o p u l a r l y t h o u g h t .  Behavioral theory  considers  c o g n i t i v e components as i l l u s t r a t e d i n Weiss's ( 1 9 7 8 ) i n t e g r a t i v e model of the " g i v e - g e t " paradigm o f b e h a v i o r i n t e r a c t i o n and i n time.  change based on a r e a s of m a r i t a l  a c c o m p l i s h m e n t s as a f u n c t i o n of where a r e l a t i o n s h i p i s  B e h a v i o r a l t h e o r y r e l a t e s t o s o c i a l exchange t h e o r y  m a r i t a l p a r t n e r s f u n c t i o n i n a "quasi-economy" t h a t i n v o l v e s exchange of c o s t s and b e n e f i t .  i n that the  - 47 -  CHAPTER I I I  METHOD  E x i s t e n t i a l Phenomenological  Psychology  The q u a l i t a t i v e r e s e a r c h model of e x i s t e n t i a l phenomenology s e l e c t e d t o i n v e s t i g a t e the r e s e a r c h q u e s t i o n : marital satisfaction?  What i s the e x e r i e n c e o f  Existential-phenomenology  technique t h a t s y s t e m a t i c a l l y s t u d i e s a person's and  i s concerned  was  i s a descriptive e x p e r i e n c e i n the w o r l d  w i t h how the i n d i v i d u a l p e r c e i v e s h i m / h e r s e l f i n t h i s  w o r l d w i t h r e g a r d t o p e r s o n a l reponses t o s e l f and o t h e r s . a p p r o a c h t h a t f a l l s under the r u b r i c o f h u m a n i s t i c  As an  psychology,  e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g y has as I t s u l t i m a t e g o a l the p r e p a r a t i o n of a c o m p l e t e d e s c r i p t i o n o f what i t means t o be a l i v e as a human b e i n g ( B u g e n t a l , 1964). Phenomenology p r o v i d e s a means by w h i c h e x i s t e n t i a l p h i l o s o p h y i s applied to humanistic s c i e n t i f i c i n q u i r y . to  understand  the human c o n d i t i o n as i t m a n i f e s t s i t s e l f  concrete, l i v e d situations" (founded  While e x i s t e n t i a l i s m  and d e v e l o p e d  "seeks  i n our  [ V a l l e & K i n g , 1978, p. 6] phenomenology  by Edmond H u s s e r l , 1859-1938) " i s a method w h i c h  a l l o w s us t o c o n t a c t phenomena as we a c t u a l l y l i v e them out and e x p e r i e n c e them" ( V a l l e & K i n g , 1978, p. 7 ) . e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l psychology  Therefore,  attempts  to understand  s t r u c t u r e o f human e x p e r i e n c e s and b e h a v i o r s as r e v e a l e d d e s c r i p t i v e t e c h n i q u e s ( V a l l e & K i n g , 1978, p. 7 ) .  the  through  - 48 -  The  b a s i c d e s i g n f o r p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l d e s c r i p t i v e r e s e a r c h as  o u t l i n e d by C o l a i z z i (1978) was  followed.  C o l a i z z i ' s approach i s based  on the c o n c e p t of a phenomenon as i n t r i g u i n g l y p r e s e n t e d by H e i d e g g e r ' s (1962) s t a t e m e n t , " t o l e t t h a t w h i c h shows i t s e l f the  v e r y way  I n w h i c h i t shows i t s e l f  be seen from i t s e l f i n  from i t s e l f "  ( c i t e d from C o l a i z z i ,  1978, p. 5 3 ) . E x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l p s y c h o l o g y I s e s s e n t i a l l y based on the notion of i n t e n t i o n a l i t y  [italics  added].  That i s "we  are never merely  c o n s c i o u s but always c o n s c i o u s of s o m e t h i n g " ( V a l l e & K i n g , p. 1 3 ) . Human e x i s t e n c e ( t h e s u b j e c t i v e , the p e r c e i v i n g ) and the o b j e c t s  we  r e f l e c t on ( t h e o b j e c t i v e , the p e r c e i v e d ) c o n s t i t u t e the u n i t y of the i n d i v i d u a l and h i s o r her w o r l d .  One  cannot e x i s t i n d e p e n d e n t of the  o t h e r t h e r e f o r e one does not " c a u s e " the o t h e r .  T h i s concept of  " l i f e - w o r l d " o r " l e b e n s w e l t , " the w o r l d l i v e d by the p e r s o n , i s a l s o b a s i c to existential-phenomenology.. The above p r e s e n t s the f u n d a m e n t a l d i f f e r e n c e between e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l methodology  and t r a d i t i o n a l  qualitative  " o b j e c t i v e " r e s e a r c h methods w h i c h tend t o assume t h a t p e o p l e e x i s t i n d e p e n d e n t l y from the o b j e c t s around  them.  Through e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l methodology  the r e s e a r c h e r  t r i e s t o approach the e v e r y d a y l i f e e x p e r i e n c e s of p e o p l e w i t h as p r e c o n c e p t i o n s as p o s s i b l e .  However, as one can n e v e r be  few  totally  o b j e c t i v e , the r e s e a r c h e r must b e g i n the p r o c e s s of r e s e a r c h by r e v e a l i n g one's p r e c o n c e p t i o n s and p r e s u p p o s i t i o n s .  The e x p l i c a t i o n of  a s s u m p t i o n s of the e x p e r i e n c e of t h i s r e s e a r c h e r have been p r e s e n t e d i n Chapter  one.  - 49  -  F i n a l l y , as a model f o r r e s e a r c h , phenomenology i s based upon the p h i l o s o p h i c a l theory that conscious experience understanding  i s e s s e n t i a l to the  of human b e h a v i o r .  Co-researchers C o l a i z z i (1978) c i t i n g F r i e r e (1970) r e f e r s to the " s u b j e c t s " of the r e s e a r c h as " c o - r e s e a r c h e r s " ( p . 6 9 ) . meaningful  T h i s terms i s much more  f o r e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l r e s e a r c h t h a n " s u b j e c t s " as  t h e p a r t i c i p a n t s are i n v o l v e d  d i a l o g a l r e s e a r c h as persons  s t a t u s l e v e l w i t h the r e s e a r c h e r .  on an  I t i s a non-manipulative  based on c o o p e r a t i o n r a t h e r than c o n t r o l ( G i o r g i , 1970,  paradigm  p.  203).  T r u s t i n g what the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s r e l a t e i n t h e i r s t o r i e s of experience i s b a s i c to t h i s r e s e a r c h .  equal  their  As s t a t e d by C o l a i z z i  (1978),  " g e n u i n e l y human r e s e a r c h , i n t o any phenomenon w h a t s o e v e r , by  seriously  i n c l u d i n g the t r u s t i n g d i a l o g a l a p p r o a c h , p a s s e s beyond r e s e a r c h i n i t s l i m i t e d sense and o c c a s i o n s e x i s t e n t i a l i n s i g h t " ( p . 6 9 ) .  The  c o - r e s e a r c h e r s i n t h i s s t u d y are c u l t u r a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s of experiencing marital  people  satisfaction.  S e l e c t i o n of Co-researchers F i v e i n d i v i d u a l s were i n t e r v i e w e d , t h r e e females The  and  two  males.  c r i t e r i a f o r s e l e c t i o n were t h a t the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s had been m a r r i e d  i n North America,  had been m a r r i e d  to the same p a r t n e r f o r a minimum of  t e n y e a r s , were a b l e t o a r t i c u l a t e t h e i r e x p e r i e n c e , and by t h e i r r e c k o n i n g were e x p e r i e n c i n g s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r m a r r i a g e . t o C o l a i z z i (1978) " e x p e r i e n c e w i t h the i n v e s t i g a t e d t o p i c  own  According and  - 50 -  a r t i c u l a t e n e s s s u f f i c e as c r i t e r i a  f o r selecting subjects" (p. 58).  T h i s r e s e a r c h e r chose t o I n t e r v i e w people who had been m a r r i e d  ten years  o r l o n g e r based on the 1982 S t a t i s t i c s Canada r e p o r t t h a t the average d u r a t i o n of marriage  f o r d i v o r c e d persons  was 12.0 y e a r s w h i l e t h e  median [ i t a l i c s added] d u r a t i o n of m a r r i a g e  was 10.3 y e a r s .  None of the  c o - r e s e a r c h e r s had been m a r r i e d f o r l e s s than t w e l v e y e a r s . (1976) f i n d i n g t h a t c o u p l e s e x p e r i e n c e between s i x and t e n y e a r s o f m a r r i a g e i n t e r v i e w persons  the l o w e s t m a r i t a l  Miller's  satisfaction  a l s o i n f l u e n c e d the d e c i s i o n to  m a r r i e d t e n y e a r s and l o n g e r .  The c o - r e s e a r c h e r s were found f r i e n d s and c o l l e g u e s .  through p e r s o n a l r e f e r r a l s  The a p p r o a c h was t o t e l l people  from  about t h e  r e s e a r c h and a s k them i f they knew o f any c o u p l e s whom they f e l t were experiencing marital s a t i s f a c t i o n .  I f t h e y d i d (and a l m o s t  everyone  spoken t o was a b l e t o i d e n t i f y a t l e a s t one c o u p l e ) they were asked i f t h e y thought  whether one member of t h e c o u p l e would be w i l l i n g t o  p a r t i c i p a t e i n the r e s e a r c h . asked (In  t o make the i n i t i a l  I f they f e l t  inquiry.  t h a t t h e y might be they were  I f the response  came back p o s i t i v e  three i n s t a n c e s couples d e c l i n e d the contact's i n i t i a l  l e t t e r of i n t r o d u c t i o n and s u b j e c t consent p o t e n t i a l co-researchers  request) the  form were m a i l e d t o the  (see Appendix A ) .  The l e t t e r was f o l l o w e d up  a week l a t e r w i t h a phone c a l l t o s e t up an i n t e r v i e w time i f the i n d i v i d u a l was s t i l l  interested In participating.  I n t e r v i e w s were h e l d  i n c o - r e s e a r c h e r s homes, o f f i c e s and i n one f o l l o w - u p i n t e r v i e w , a restaurant.  - 51  -  Deciding Whether to Interview Individuals or Couples An  i m p o r t a n t d e c i s i o n was  whether to i n t e r v i e w c o u p l e s o r o n l y  i n d i v i d u a l from the m a r i t a l dyad. i n d i v i d u a l s f o r t h i s study.  I t was  T h i s was  d e c i d e d to  one  interview  based on the f a c t t h a t  the  d e s c r i p t i v e methodology sought to i d e n t i f y what the phenomenon of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s as i t i s l i v e d by the i n d i v i d u a l e x p e r i e n c i n g it.  I t was  difficult  not  an a n a l y s i s of the m a r i t a l s y s t e m .  to s e p a r a t e the s y s t e m i c  i n d i v i d u a l s making up a t the same t i m e .  dynamics of the c o u p l e from  the m a r i t a l dyad i f b o t h p a r t n e r s  The  question  being  as l i v e d by the i n d i v i d u a l , not why or c o n t r o l l i n g sense.  I t would have been  asked was  or how  were  what i s the  phenomenon  One's e x p e r i e n c e i s most v i s i b l e f o r o n e s e l f  can o n l y be an o b e r v e r of one's b e h a v i o r a l  satisfaction.  interviewed  i n an e x p l a i n i n g , p r e d i c t i n g  an a c t o r whereas b e h a v i o r i s most v i s i b l e f o r the o b s e r v e r . one's p a r t n e r  the  Bogdon and  Taylor  That i s ,  a n t e c e d e n t s of  (1975) s t a t e d t h a t a p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l  a p p r o a c h to an i s s u e " i s concerned w i t h u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e h a v i o r from a c t o r ' s own  frame of r e f e r e n c e "  (p. 2).  s a t i s f a c t i o n i s a subjective perception h e r s e l f can  as  the  Essentially marital t h a t o n l y the i n d i v i d u a l h i s  or  declare.  This researcher  also f e l t  t h a t to i n t e r v i e w the dyad would add  a  d i m e n s i o n of d i s t r a c t i o n i n terms of the d i r e c t i o n the i n t e r v i e w m i g h t take without considerable  Interference  from the i n t e r v i e w e r .  d i f i c u l t y i n t r a n s c r i b i n g a three-way c o n v e r s a t i o n , i n t e r v i e w i n g a c o u p l e the r e s e a r c h e r  i s tuned i n t o the  t h a n each i n d i v i d u a l ' s e x p e r i e n c e of b e i n g considerations.  and  The  the f a c t t h a t i n "couple"  rather  p a r t of t h a t c o u p l e were a l s o  - 52 -  The d e c i s i o n was a l s o based on B r i l l i n g e r ' s p i l o t study  (1983) f i n d i n g from h e r  i n w h i c h she found t h a t i n t e r v i e w i n g t h e second  added l i t t l e new d a t a  partner  t o t h a t a l r e a d y g i v e n by the f i r s t .  Demographic Information The c o - r e s e a r c h e r s  were s e l e c t e d on the b a s i s of a v a i l a b i l i t y and  f u l f i l l m e n t of the b a s i c s e l e c t i o n c r i t e r i a . not  requested  description.  Background i n f o r m a t i o n was  u n t i l a f t e r t h e v a l i d a t i o n o f t h e themes and  exhaustive  This i n f o r m a t i o n i s included f o r the i n t e r e s t of the  reader.  Table 1 C o - r e s e a r c h e r Demographic CR Gender and Age  Information  No. o f Y e a r s Married  C h i l d r e n and Ages  Occupation  Y e a r s of Education  Student/ Homemaker  Doctoral Candidate  College Instructor  M.A.  Bakery Manager  High School plus.  Teacher/ Homemaker  B.A.  Student/ Teacher  Doctoral Candidate  CRj:  Female  47  23  Male 20 Male 19 Female - 18 15 Male  CR :  Male  41  19  Male Female -  CR :  Male  42  12  11 Male Female - 4  CR4:  Female  37  15  Female -  CR :  Female  41  15  -  2  3  5  9 6  2  -  Phenomenological  53  -  Interview  E a c h c o - r e s e a r c h e r was  interviewed twice.  The  f i r s t interview  i n v o l v e d the c o - r e s e a r c h e r t e l l i n g the r e s e a r c h e r the s t o r y o f s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r marriage. The  I t was  tape r e c o r d e d  and t r a n s c r i b e d .  second s e t of i n t e r v i e w s were the v a l i d a t i n g i n t e r v i e w s .  r e s e a r c h e r r e t u r n e d to the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s w i t h the themes and  The exhaustive  d e s c r i p t i o n as f o r m u l a t e d from the d a t a of a l l f i v e p r o t o c o l s ( t e r m f o r co-researcher t r a n s c r i p t ) .  The  second i n t e r v i e w s were not  tape-recorded  but n o t e s were t a k e n r e g a r d i n g any changes o r a d d i t i o n s t o the themes and e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n o f the p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l  analysis.  i n t e r v i e w s o c c u r r e d over a p e r i o d of seven months. l e n g t h from one to  to two h o u r s .  The  The  They v a r i e d i n  o c c a s i o n a l follow-up telephone  check w i t h c o - r e s e a r c h e r s on changes was  call  a l s o made.  B e f o r e s e t t i n g up a p p o i n t m e n t s w i t h the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s , the r e s e a r c h e r d i s c u s s e d w i t h them, f u r t h e r t o the l e t t e r of the n a t u r e of the r e s e a r c h .  The  r e s e a r c h e r was  introduction,  concerned  with putting  them a t ease about the purpose and d i r e c t i o n of the i n t e r v i e w by p o i n t i n g out t o them t h a t t h e y were i n f a c t the e x p e r t s on s a t i s f a c t i o n and  t h a t t h e y would o n l y be r e l a t i n g me  felt  disclosing.  comfortable  that which  they  D u r i n g the a c t u a l i n t e r v i e w s i t was  t h a t the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s r e l a x e d c o n s i d e r a b l y and e x p e r i e n c e s w i t h openness and g e n u i n e n e s s . d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n o r u n h a p p i n e s s been heard p r o t o c o l would have been d i s c a r d e d . The  marital  Had  spoke of evidence  found  their of  obvious  as the i n t e r v i e w u n f o l d e d  T h i s d i d not  occur.  i n t e r v i e w s were e s s e n t i a l l y u n s t r u c t u r e d .  by e s t a b l i s h i n g r a p p o r t w i t h the c o - r e s e a r c h e r .  that  Each i n t e r v i e w began  T h i s was  achieved  by  - 54 -  setting both co-researcher and researcher at ease through casual verbal exchanges and by answering any further questions that the co-researcher may have had regarding the research methodology or question.  Each  interview then began with the following preamble: Please reflect on your marriage and then t e l l me the story of your experience of marital satisfaction.  You may want to give  me an outline of the satisfactions in your marriage from the beginning until the present or you might like to describe vignettes of experience that typify the satisfaction you feel. I also had the following l i s t of research questions that I asked i f they were not covered during the course of the Interview. 1.  What are the most important components or basic ingredients of satisfaction i n your marriage?  2.  What do you see as the strengths/weaknesses i n your marriage relationship?  3.  Tell me about your changes in satisfaction and how they occured.  4.  What facilitates/blocks your communication as a couple?  5.  Can you t e l l me about love/sex/romance/intimacy i n your relationship?  6.  What does the future hold for your marriage relationship?  Procedure Each co-researcher was i n i t i a l l y contacted by letter.  The letter  included an explanation of the purpose of the study and a subject consent form (see Appendix A).  Approximately a week after sending the  -  55 -  l e t t e r co-researchers were phoned to arrange The interviews were tape-recorded.  f o r an interview time.  As this researcher personally  knew a l l of the co-researchers to some extent there was already a degree of trust present.  Before beginning each interview the co-researcher and  researcher were set at ease by e s t a b l i s h i n g further rapport. researcher also answered any questions about the research. co-researcher then signed the consent  The  The  form before formally beginning the  interview by turning the tape-recorder on. The co-researchers were allowed to t e l l t h e i r story i n t h e i r own way as much as p o s s i b l e .  The researcher r e f l e c t e d f e e l i n g s and content  and o c c a s i o n a l l y probed with a question to c l a r i f y or get further into the experience of the co-researcher.  The inteviews ended when the  co-researcher had said as much as they f e l t they could. were then transcribed with the a i d of a dicta-phone  The interviews  and typewriter.  The protocols were analysed following C o l a i z z i * s (1973) method of phenomenological protocol a n a l y s i s .  The resultant themes and exhaustive  d e s c r i p t i o n were then taken back to each co-researcher f o r v a l i d a t i o n . Each co-researcher was mailed a copy of t h e i r t r a n s c r i p t , the themes with d e s c r i p t i o n s , and a copy of the exhaustive d e s c r i p t i o n .  Each  co-researcher was seen approximately a week often sending them the material.  This gave the co-researchers an opportunity to read and  r e f l e c t upon the data before meeting with researcher.  This proved  to be  a very expedient move as the v a l i d a t i o n interviews were more involved and went longer than i t had been inmaglned they would.  I t also gave the  co-researchers time to think c a r e f u l l y about the themes and exhaustive description.  Three of the co-researchers took the time to make marginal  - 56  notes  -  f o r ease of r e c a l l d u r i n g the a c t u a l i n t e r v i e w .  i n t e r v i e w was necessary  not t a p e - r e c o r d e d  changes.  The  validation  but notes were t a k e n r e g a r d i n g  Changes were then made to the themes and  d e s c r i p t i o n as deemed n e c e s s a r y  by the  any  exhaustive  co-researchers.  Analysis of Protocols C o l a i z z i * s ( 1 9 7 8 , pp. 59-62) s t e p s of p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l a n a l y s i s were f o l l o w e d .  protocol  A f t e r h a v i n g typed out the p r o t o c o l i t was  l i s t e n e d t o t w i c e more w h i l e f o l l o w i n g the typed t r a n s c r i p t . then s e t a s i d e f o r a number of d a y s .  The  t r a n s c r i p t was  It  then read  t o c o n t i n u e t o become f a m i l i a r w i t h the f e e l i n g and e s s e n c e of e x p e r i e n c e as r e l a t e d by the c o - r e s e a r c h e r . r e f l e c t i o n on what was e x p l i c i t l y expressed  a c t u a l l y s a i d and  the  This process i n v o l v e d  the u n d e r l y i n g meaning of  less  t h e n read a g a i n w h i l e u n d e r l i n i n g s t a t e m e n t s  t h a t p e r t a i n e d d i r e c t l y to m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . t h e n typed onto i n d i v i d u a l f i l e CR2,  CR3,  These s t a t e m e n t s  etc.).  ( C o l a i z z i , 1978)  not c l e a r and e x p l i c i t .  were  c a r d s and marked as to w h i c h p r o t o c o l W i t h the s i g n i f i c a n t  statements  f r o m each p r o t o c o l , meanings were f o r m u l a t e d u s i n g the p r o c e s s "creative insight"  again  experiences.  Each t r a n s c r i p t was  they came from (CR^,  was  of  when the meaning of a statement  As s u c c i n c t l y s t a t e d by C o l a i z z i  (1978)  " c o n t e x t u a l and h o r i z o n t a l meanings a r e g i v e n w i t h the p r o t o c o l but not in  it;  are  so the r e s e a r c h e r must go beyond what i s g i v e n i n the  o r i g i n a l d a t a and a t the same t i m e , s t a y w i t h i t " p r o t o c o l s had been a n a l y z e d those s t a t e m e n t s t h a t had  was  ( p . 59).  from each  the same meaning were grouped t o g e t h e r .  When a l l the  co-researcher  Once t h e s e were  - 57  -  grouped t o g e t h e r themes were f o r m u l a t e d common to the e x p e r i e n c e the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s as shown by the meanings and T h i s was  significant  of a l l  statements.  not a one-shot t a s k as i t took o v e r a month of " b e i n g w i t h "  w i t h the d a t a t o f e e l t h a t the e x p e r i e n c e had represented through The  been a c c u r a t e l y  the themes.  themes were then woven t o g e t h e r i n t o an e x h a u s t i v e  o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as l i v e d by the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s .  description  With  the themes  and e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n c o m p l e t e d the r e s e a r c h e r r e t u r n e d t o e a c h c o - r e s e a r c h e r f o r v a l i d a t i o n of the r e s u l t s .  The  v e r y i n v o l v e d i n t h i s p r o c e s s and made numerous r e c l a r i f i c a t i o n and found  co-researchers  became  suggestions  to a l e s s e r degree a c t u a l c o n t e n t .  t h i s p a r t of the r e s e a r c h e s p e c i a l l y r e w a r d i n g  This  researcher  because of  c o - r e s e a r c h e r s e n t h u s i a s t i c v a l i d a t i o n of the themes and  the  exhaustive  d e s c r i p t i o n and d e s i r e t o t a l k f u r t h e r about t h e i r e x p e r i e n c e .  I t would  have been s a t i s f y i n g to have been a b l e t o spend more time w i t h the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s i n the v a l i d a t i o n p r o c e s s them o r me. exhaust  t h a n was  available for either  However as C o l a i z z i (1978) s t a t e s , " r e s e a r c h can  the i n v e s t i g a t e d phenomenon, t h a t r e s e a r c h can n e v e r  complete"  be  (p. 70).  A l l themes were acknowledged as t r u e to the e x p e r i e n c e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s w i t h o n l y a few s t a t e m e n t s  of  the  w i t h i n themes b e i n g changed o r  i n some cases e l i m i n a t e d a l t o g e t h e r because of a l a c k of consensus.  never  co-researcher  - 58 -  CHAPTER IV  RESULTS  Introduction The  o r i g i n a l p r o t o c o l s a r e p r e s e n t e d i n A p p e n d i x B.  r e s u l t of the o r g a n i z i n g of s i g n i f i c a n t themes.  F o r example, t h e f i r s t  statements  T a b l e 2 i s the  around common  theme, Ease o f Communication, was spoken  of by each c o - r e s e a r c h e r i n t h e manner r e c o r d e d ( s e e A p p e n d i x B ) . statements The  Some  a r e o b v i o u s l y more e x p l i c i t i n t h e i r meaning than o t h e r s .  themes a r e n o t p r e s e n t e d i n o r d e r o f p r i o r i t y o r p r o g r e s s i o n .  I t i s t h e l i n e a r i t y o f t h e w r i t t e n p r e s e n t a t i o n t h a t makes i t appear t h a t way. itself  Each t h e m a t i c e x p e r i e n c e i s n e c e s s a r y b u t n o t s u f f i c i e n t i n  f o r the experience of m a r i t a l  satisfaction.  The f o l l o w i n g a r e t h e themes o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l satisfaction  as e x p l i c a t e d from t h e p r o t o c o l s :  1.  Ease o f Communication  2.  Self-Disclosure  3.  E m o t i o n a l Commitment  A.  Intimacy  5.  Values  Consensus  6.  Shared  Goals  7.  Couple  Solidarity  8.  Respect  9.  J o i e de V i v r e  10.  Complementary D i f f e r e n c e s  - 59  11.  Autonomy/Dependence  12.  R e a l i s t i c O u t l o o k on M a r r i a g e and  13.  Strong Personal I d e n t i t y  14.  Emotional  15.  E x i s t e n t i a l Couple I d e n t i t y  f i r s t attempt  statements  Life  Security/Support  The e x p l i c a t i o n of themes was The  -  not a s i m p l e one-shot p r o c e s s .  produced t w e n t y - s i x themes based on the  and meaning u n i t s .  Upon r e f l e c t i o n i t was  significant  r e a l i z e d that a  number of the themes needed t o be melded t o g e t h e r i n t o more c o n c i s e statements  f o r b e t t e r understanding  and c l a r i t y .  This involved f u r t h e r  h o u r s o f b e i n g w i t h the d a t a and s e a r c h i n g f o r words t h a t p o r t r a y e d experience.  For example, an o r i g i n a l theme was  Partnership."  Under t h i s theme was  l a b e l e d " S h a r i n g i n the  i n c l u d e d a f o r m u l a t i o n of meaning  i n v o l v i n g v a l u e s consensus, g o a l s , i n t e r e s t s , r o l e s / t a s k s and l i f e experiences. v a l i d a t i o n i t was  difficult  Even b e f o r e r e t u r n i n g t o the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s f o r r e a l i z e d t h a t what had been come up w i t h was  n e a r l y c o n c i s e nor c l e a r enough. V a l u e s Consensus and difficult  the  The end  r e s u l t was  not  s e p a r a t e themes f o r  Shared G o a l s , w i t h i n t e r e s t s , r o l e s / t a s k s ,  and  l i f e e x p e r i e n c e s b e i n g i n t e g r a t e d i n t o the subsequent themes  of I n t i m a c y , E x i s t e n t i a l Couple I d e n t i t y , and Couple S o l i d a r i t y . p r o c e s s was  r e p e a t e d a number of times b e f o r e i t was  essence of what was  This  f e l t t h a t the  b e i n g s a i d by the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s had been c a p t u r e d .  I t r e s u l t e d i n a much deeper and more f l o w i n g and u n i f i e d  exhaustive  d e s c r i p t i o n based on the meaning of what the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s had i n t h e i r s t o r i e s of s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r  related  marriages.  The v a l i d a t i o n Interviews were two-way d i a l o g u e w i t h each c o - r e s e a r c h e r t h a t r e s u l t e d i n a number of a d d i t i o n s and d e l e t i o n s t o  - 60 -  the wording  o f t h e d e s c r i p t i o n s o f themes and t h e e x h a u s t i v e  description.  A l l t h e themes were v a l i d a t e d by a l l c o - r e s e a r c h e r s .  An  example o f a change i n d e s c r i p t i o n t h a t r e s u l t e d f r o m d i s c u s s i o n w i t h t h e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s was under t h e theme o f "Complementary D i f f e r e n c e s . " I t was o r i g i n a l l y s t a t e d t h a t " t h e p a r t n e r i s an e x t e n s i o n o f one's own potential."  A l l c o - r e s e a r c h e r s r e f u t e d t h i s statement  e x a c t l y t h e way t h e y e x p e r i e n c e d one's p a r t n e r h e l p s one d e v e l o p  it.  as not b e i n g  I t was m o d i f i e d t o , " b e i n g w i t h  one's own p o t e n t i a l , " w h i c h a l l  c o - r e s e a r c h e r s were i n agreement w i t h .  A n o t h e r example was a c l a r i f y i n g  of t h e d i f f e r e n c e between C o u p l e S o l i d a r i t y and E x i s t e n t i a l C o u p l e Identity.  T h i s came about as a r e s u l t o f each c o - r e s e a r c h e r  t h e i r experience.  T h i s p r o c e s s o f c r e a t i n g meaning t o g e t h e r  clarifying typifies  the i n t e r s u b j e c t i v e aspect of e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l r e s e a r c h . P a r t of the c l a r i f y i n g process  I n v o l v e d d r o p p i n g a quote f r o m  c o - r e s e a r c h e r f i v e t h a t t h e o t h e r s c o u l d n o t v a l i d a t e as b e i n g p a r t of t h e i r experience.  Co-researcher  f i v e a l s o agreed  that presenting the  q u o t e on i t s own ( o u t o f the c o n t e x t o f t h e whole i n t e r v i e w ) was not a v a l i d r e f l e c t i o n of her experience. The  n e x t s e c t i o n o f t h i s c h a p t e r i s an e x p l a n a t i o n o f each o f t h e  themes o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e f o l l o w e d by t h e e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n .  The  e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n r e v e a l s t h e e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as f u l l y and c l e a r l y as p o s s i b l e .  I t i s a w e a v i n g t o g e t h e r o f t h e themes  c r e a t i n g a u n i t y and i n t e r g r a t i o n o f t h e phenomenon.  F o l l o w i n g the  e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n i s t h e condensed d e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e o f marital staisfaction.  I t i s presented  as a s u c c i n c t and f u n d a m e n t a l  summary o f t h e e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e q u e s t i o n : meaning o f m a r i t a l  satisfaction?  What i s t h e  - 61 -  DESCRIPTIONS OF THEMES OF THE EXPERIENCE  1. Ease of Communication Marital satisfaction involves open and continual communication that helps f a c i l i t a t e the healthy functioning of the relationship. The communication i s experienced as being heard by the partner and i n turn listening.  The communication Involves not only constructive expression  of feelings and concerns but also discussion of thoughts and ideas about l i f e i n general.  It consists of an ease of sharing with one's  partner on a deeper, personal level.  2. Self-Disclosure One experiences a level of effective communication that involves the risk of exposing deeper parts of the self to one's partner.  This  truthful sharing of the self occurs i n spite of possible emotional pain for oneself.  It involves discovering one's own potential to express  self truthfully.  It occurs because of trust that one w i l l be understood  and accepted by one's partner.  3. Emotional Commitment Marital satisfaction occurs as each partner i s available to and for the other in existential ways. Emotional commitment involves sharing the f u l l array of l i f e ' s experiences together.  The experience consists  of deep feelings of belonging to and responsibility for the  - 62 -  relationship.  There i s willingness to work together, over time, on the  r e l a t i o n s h i p because of a b e l i e f i n the future of the marriage. occurs most often i n a natural, "subconscious" manner. bring i t to a more "conscious," i n t e n t i o n a l l e v e l .  A crisis  This may  Tolerance i s  recognized as necessary to maintain the r e l a t i o n s h i p during trying and d i f f i c u l t times.  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s experienced through  the giving of s e l f without guarantee responsiveness.  of other's immediate  Doing things f o r one another that describe modes of  a v a i l a b i l i t y and dependability founded  4.  risking  upon mutual love and respect.  Intimacy Being alone together sharing " s p e c i a l time" on emotional,  i n t e l l e c t u a l and physical l e v e l s . distractions.  It may  involve d e l i b e r a t e l y s e t t i n g aside time f o r each  other on a regular basis. p o s i t i v e l y valued.  Time out from every day tasks and  Intimacy enhances m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n and i s  Emotional a c c e s s i b i l i t y Is key.  It may  also include  shared i n t e r e s t s / a c t i v i t i e s that are bonding and enriching for the relationship.  It i s experienced as learning and growing together.  A  u n i f y i n g core for the r e l a t i o n s h i p .  5.  Values Consensus A consensus of values on both a verbal and e x p e r i e n t i a l l e v e l  occurs. own.  Partner's values are experienced as being congruent  with one's  There are feelings of attachment to and comfort with the partner  based on the experience of shared values.  An experiencing of a unifying  way o f l i v i n g and d i r e c t i o n i n l i f e .  V a l u e s consensus  w h i c h much o f t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p i s based.  i s a ground  upon  P a r t n e r s u n d e r s t a n d one  a n o t h e r ; a r e aware o f t h o u g h t s , f e e l i n g , a t t i t u d e s , p r e f e r e n c e s , l i k e s and d i s l i k e s . As C o - r e s e a r c h e r t h r e e e x p l i c i t l y s t a t e d , "Our v a l u e s , t h e t h i n g s t h a t we agree upon, l o o k i n g back now, t h e y r e a l l y haven't  changed  t h a t much."  6.  Shared  Goals  P a r t n e r s e x p e r i e n c e a bond t h a t i s s a t i s f y i n g as a r e s u l t o f w o r k i n g toward s h a r e d g o a l s .  Shared g o a l s and s u p p o r t f o r each  i n d i v i d u a l ' 8 g o a l s and accomplishments and f u t u r e promise  7.  Couple The  r e l a t e to present  satisfaction  f o r the marriage.  Solidarity  e x p e r i e n c e of b e i n g i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p c r e a t e s a c o u p l e  solidarity.  I t draws the c o u p l e c l o s e r over time and r e s u l t s i n a  d e e p e r sense of meaning i n l i f e .  L e a r n i n g and e x p e r i e n c i n g p e r s o n a l  s t r e n g t h s and weaknesses o c c u r s t h a t a r e f o u n d a t i o n a l t o s e l f - u n d e r s t a n d i n g and c r e a t e a c o u p l e s o l i d a r i t y .  I t i s a partnership  t h a t each c o n t r i b u t e s t o t h r o u g h s h a r i n g r o l e s and t a s k s t h a t c r e a t e s t a b i l i t y w i t h i n which s a t i s f a c t i o n develops. day-to-day The  b a s i s and d u r i n g  I t i n v o l v e s s u p p o r t on a  crisis.  phenomenal o r e x p e r i e n t i a l d i m e n s i o n o f t h i s i s i l l u s t r a t e d by  C o - r e s e a r c h e r two's s t a t e m e n t , "You l o o k t o one a n o t h e r , e x a c t l y . it's  the same, l i k e even the way I am r i g h t now.  And  I have t a k e n on more  -  and more t h i n g s .  64  -  Even t h i s whole p o l i t i c a l t h i n g t h a t I've done up  h e r e , I c o u l d n ' t have done t h a t w i t h o u t C."  And  two, an i l l u s t r a t i v e e x p e r i e n c e d u r i n g c r i s i s . scene.  She was  i n tears.  And  again f o r Co-researcher " I j u s t remember the  of c o u r s e h e r r e l i a n c e on me  i n that kind  of  s i t u a t i o n and I j u s t d i d n ' t have the answers.  is  o n l y symptomatic of the k i n d s of s t r e s s t h a t you can be under and  have not one to  to t u r n t o but y o u r s e l v e s .  And  But t h i s k i n d of s t o r y  out of t h a t you b o t h  you  begin  change." Couple s o l i d a r i t y i s e x p e r i e n c e s as a "we  did i t together" f e e l i n g  t h a t comes from s h a r e d l i f e e x p e r i e n c e s i n which  the p a r t n e r s f i n d  s u p p o r t , u n d e r s t a n d i n g and l o v e .  8.  Respect Respect  l i k i n g who regard.  i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p i s an e x p e r i e n c e and a t t i t u d e based  the p a r t n e r i s and how  she/he runs h e r / h i s l i f e ; a  An e x p e r i e n c e of b e i n g w i t h someone s p e c i a l .  on  positive  Living with this  f e e l i n g of r e s p e c t i n g and b e i n g r e s p e c t e d by one's p a r t n e r opens one  to  examine and r e f l e c t on e x i s t e n t i a l v a l u e s and p r e f e r r e d ways of b e i n g i n the w o r l d . I t i s s h a r e d f e e l i n g s of c a r i n g , t r u s t and c l o s e n e s s .  The  s a t i s f a c t i o n of r e s p e c t emerges out of m u t u a l f r i e n d s h i p and r e c o g n i t i o n of  partner's  uniqueness.  9.  J o i e de  Vivre  One's p a r t n e r i s someone w i t h whom one fun with.  The  r e l a t i o n s h i p o f f e r s humour and warmth and  p o s i t i v e o u t l o o k on l i f e . s a y i n g , "he's  e n j o y s b e i n g w i t h and  C o - r e s e a r c h e r one  aids In a  speaks c l e a r l y t o t h i s i n  a very p o s i t i v e t h i n k i n g person.  And  t h a t i s a tremendous  b o o s t as f a r as the s a t i s f a c t i o n t h a t I f e e l out of l i v i n g w i t h  10.  has  him."  Complementary D i f f e r e n c e C o - r e s e a r c h e r s were aware of b o t h a c c e p t i n g  d i f f e r e n c e s between t h e m s e l v e s and  and  their partners.  liking  the  I t i s experienced  a f u l f i l l m e n t t h a t r e s u l t s i n a p l e a s i n g sense of wholness t h r o u g h p r e s e n c e and appreciate oneself.  c a r e of one's p a r t n e r .  the a s p e c t s  I t i n v o l v e s b e i n g open and  of one's p a r t n e r  B e i n g w i t h one's p a r t n e r h e l p s  t h a t are d i s s i m i l i a r one  d e v e l o p one's  as  the  able  to  to own  potential.  11.  Autonomy/Dependence T h i s theme i s r e a l l y the two  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n occurs f l o w of b e i n g  together.  s i d e s of the same e x i s t e n t i a l  i n the c o n t e x t  of the b a l a n c e i n the ebb  I t i n v o l v e s the p a r a d o x we  development of our sense of s e l f t h r o u g h o u t l i f e . d i f f e r e n t i a t i o n t h a t we marriage.  coin.  experience The  i n the  p r o c e s s of  s t r u g g l e w i t h from e a r l y l i f e a l s o occurs  I t embodies a d e v e l o p e d s e l f - i d e n t i t y t h a t a l l o w s  in  the  i n d i v i d u a l the freedom t o e n j o y b o t h s i d e s of the r e l a t i o n s h i p . a c o m f o r t zone f o r b o t h p a r t n e r s  and  Finding  between the extremes of abandonment  and  -  invasion. having  As e x p e r i e n c e d  66  -  by C o - r e s e a r c h e r  f i v e , "a w a n t i n g to be,  not  t o be, dependent."  I t a l s o i n v o l v e s having  the f i n a n c i a l r e s o u r c e s  that allow f o r  some i n d i v i d u a l autonomy f o r b o t h p a r t e n r s .  12.  R e a l i s t i c O u t l o o k on M a r r i a g e It i s recognized  faults.  and  t h a t the p a r t n e r i s s u b j e c t to human l i m i t s  This i s accepted  as p a r t of the r e l a t i o n s h i p .  a common sense t h a t h e l p s d e a l w i t h any about the m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p . a p p r o a c h to l i f e e x i s t s . Co-researcher  Life  The  It also involves  i l l u s i o n s or r o m a n t i c i z e d i d e a l s  A somewhat p r a c t i c a l and  c o m p l e t e f u l f i l l m e n t from a n o t h e r i n d i v i d u a l .  " I can't  by  expect  I have to be more  not e x p e c t complete h a p p i n e s s and  be c r e a t e d by a n o t h e r p e r s o n .  pragmatic  e x p e r i e n t i a l dimension i s i l l u s t r a t e d  f o u r ' s r e f l e c t i o n on her r e l a t i o n s h i p .  r e s o u r c e f u l m y s e l f and  and  That poor p e r s o n who  has  contentment t o that  r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , t h a t u n a t t a i n a b l e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f making someone happy." 13.  Strong Personal I d e n t i t y M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s experienced  a c c e p t a n c e of s e l f t h a t i s s u p p o r t e d  w i t h a r e c o g n i t i o n and  by the r e l a t i o n s h i p .  The  f e e l s s a t i s f y i n g l y s t r o n g as a r e s u l t of b e i n g w i t h a p a r t n e r conveys a p o s i t i v e sense of knowing h i s / h e r s e l f and to express  having  the  marriage who strength  t h i s i n c o n s t r u c t i v e ways to the b e n e f i t of the m a r r i a g e .  t i e s i n c l o s e l y w i t h the theme of autonomy/dependence i n t h a t b o t h p a r t n e r s have a c o n s i d e r a b l e degree of s e l f r e l i a n c e .  It  -  14.  -  Emotional Security/Support The m a r r i a g e  world. of  67  a c t s as a r e f u g e from the i n s e c u r i t i e s o f l i f e  A p l a c e where one can " r e f u e l . "  the r e l a t i o n s h i p e x i s t s .  Confidence  i n the c o n t i n u e n c e  One can be o n e s e l f w i t h one's p a r t n e r  w i t h o u t f e a r s o f harming the r e l a t i o n s h i p .  E m o t i o n a l s e c u r i t y and  s u p p o r t c o n t r i b u t e s t o the e m o t i o n a l s t r e n g t h of the p a r t n e r s . experience i s heightened  and t h e  during d i f f i c u l t  times i n l i f e .  The  Emotional  s e c u r i t y / s u p p o r t c r e a t e s a " g e n t l e k i n d of l o v e . "  15.  E x i s t e n t i a l Couple I d e n t i t y S a t i s f a c t i o n i n one's m a r r i a g e  i s e x p e r i e n c e d as an e x i s t e n t i a l  sense o f c l o s e n e s s ; a b a l a n c i n g o f two p e r s o n a l i t i e s i n t o one t h a t b o t h p a r t n e r s f e e l good about. s h a r e d power b a s e .  A r e c i p r o c a l way of r e l a t i n g t h a t i n c l u d e s a  I t i s knowing t h a t one's p a r t n e r a l s o w i l l i n g l y  a c c e p t s b u i l d i n g and m a i n t a i n i n g a m a r r i a g e The r o l e s o f the p a r t n e r s i n t h e m a r r i a g e o v e r l y c o n s c i o u s o f them.  of s a t i s f a c t i o n f o r b o t h .  are maintained without  being  One's r o l e i s e x p e r i e n c e d as- a v a l i d  c o n t r i b u t i o n t o the m a r r i a g e . I d e n t i t y w i t h extended  f a m i l y may  c a r i n g t h a t a f f i r m s the m a r r i a g e .  add a d i m e n s i o n  of s u p p o r t and  For couples w i t h c h i l d r e n f a m i l y  t o g e t h e r n e s s I s a s o u r c e of d e r i v e d s a t i s f a c t i o n . Couple  identity  i n v o l v e s b e i n g t h e r e f o r one a n o t h e r ; b e i n g e m o t i o n a l l y open and available.  - 68 -  EXHAUSTIVE DESCRIPTION OF THE EXPERIENCE OF MARITAL SATISFACTION  Introduction The  e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t o n as l i v e d i s a m u l t i v a r i a t e  phenomenon.  I t i s one which has n o t been i d e n t i f i e d i n t h i s s t u d y as  p r o g r e s s i n g i n developmental  stages.  The f i f t e e n themes e x p l i c t e d  from  the p r o t o c o l s a r e i n no p a r t i c u l a r o r d e r o f s i g n i f i c a n c e o r i m p o r t a n c e . As p o i n t e d o u t by a f e w o f t h e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s , i t i s v e r y d i f f i c u l t , i f not i m p o s s i b l e , t o p u t t h e components o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r marriages of The  i n any d e f i n i t i v e o r d e r of i m p o r t a n c e .  T h e r e f o r e , the order  t h e themes i s n o t meant t o s u g g e s t a p r o g r e s s i o n , f l o w o r h i e r a r c h y . e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n w i l l b e g i n by r e f e r r i n g t o t h e f i r s t theme as  p r e s e n t e d , t h e n t h e second  theme and so o n . As s t a t e d by C l a s p e l l  ( 1 9 8 3 ) , " e a c h c o n s t i t u t e n t (theme) p a r t i c i p a t e s i n t h e o t h e r s i n a n o n - l i n e a r f a s h i o n , b r i n g i n g the experience i n t o a f u l l n e s s that  cannot  be a c h i e v e d t h r o u g h o b s e r v a t i o n s and s e l f - r e p o r t s a l o n e " ( p . 88). This exhaustive d e s c r i p t i o n of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s the r e s u l t of  a n a l y s i n g t h e p r o t o c o l s of f i v e i n d i v i d u a l s who a r e s a t i s f i e d , by  t h e i r own r e c k o n i n g , i n t h e i r m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p s .  The c o - r e s e a r c h e r s  were o f v a r y i n g a g e s , e d u c a t i o n a l b a c k g r o u n d s , s t a g e s of t h e f a m i l y l i f e c y c l e and o f b o t h s e x e s .  I n s p i t e o f t h e s e d i f f e r e n c e s they  common e x p e r i e n c e s i n t h e i r m a r r i a g e s  t h a t r e v e a l e d themselves  share i n the  e x p l i c a t i o n o f t h e f i f t e e n themes t h a t s e r v e as t h e p r e f i g u r e f o r t h e e s s e n t i a l s t r u c t u r e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  This  phenomenological  d e s c r i p t i v e a n a l y s i s moves beyond what t h e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s s t a t e d i n t h e i r s t o r i e s o f the e x p e r i e n c e .  explicitly  I t c a p t u r e s the r i c h n e s s and  - 69  -  d e p t h of human e x p e r i e n c e t h a t r e s u l t s i n t h i s e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as i t i s l i v e d . S a t i s f a c t i o n i n m a r r i a g e i s not a c o n s t a n t . throughout degrees  I t ebbs and  the r e l a t i o n s h i p but i s c o n s i s t e n t l y p r e s e n t t o v a r y i n g  i n s e l f - i d e n t i f i e d m a r r i a g e s of s a t i s f a c t i o n .  q u a n t i t a t i v e s t u d i e s ( e . g . , R o l l i n s and Cannon, 1974; and C o l e , 1975) throughout  flows  I n numerous S p a n i e r , Lewis  m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n has been i d e n t i f i e d as  the f a m i l y l i f e  changing  cycle.  E a c h c o - r e s e a r c h e r emphasized a few p a r t i c u l a r themes i n t h e i r s t o r y of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  C o - r e s e a r c h e r one f o c u s s e d on autonomy,  f i n a n c i a l s e c u r i t y and e f f e c t i v e day-to-day  communication;  C o - r e s e a r c h e r two's were s e l f - d i s c l o s u r e and the h a r d work b o t h p a r t n e r s put i n t o the r e l a t i o n s h i p ( e m o t i o n a l commitment); C o - r e s e a r c h e r  three's  were f a m i l y t o g e t h e r n e s s ( e x i s t e n t i a l c o u p l e i d e n t i t y ) , d e c i s i o n making ( c o u p l e s o l i d a r i t y ) , and s h a r e d v a l u e s ; C o - r e s e a r c h e r f o u r ' s were commitment and a r e a l i s t i c v i e w of m a r r i a g e and l i f e ;  and  finally  C o - r e s e a r c h e r f i v e ' s f a v o u r e d themes were r e s p e c t f o r p a r t n e r , c o u p l e i d e n t i t y and the dependency/independency b a l a n c e .  Again,  each  c o - r e s e a r c h e r tended t o l e a n more h e a v i l y on two o r t h r e e themes d u r i n g the s t o r y of t h e i r m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n but r e f e r r e d t o a l l o t h e r s t o lesser  degrees.  As a l r e a d y s t a t e d , but w o r t h r e p e a t i n g , m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s a m u l t i v a r i a t e phenomenon.  No one, two o r even h a l f dozen v a r i a b l e s  can  be i s o l a t e d from the r e s t and h e l d up as the most i m p o r t a n t components of  the e x p e r i e n c e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  i n e x o r a b l y welded  The  components are not  i n p l a c e ; r a t h e r they f l o w and mesh t o g e t h e r to c r e a t e  - 70  the experience.  -  There a r e , however, common themes t h a t have been  e x p l i c a t e d by e x a m i n i n g the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s .  The  and b e i n g w i t h the d e s c r i p t i v e e x p e r i e n c e s of f o l l o w i n g e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n of m a r i t a l  s a t i s f a c t i o n i s a weaving of t h e s e themes i n t o a s y n t h e s i z e d and i n t e g r a t e d d e s c r i p t i o n of the phenomenon.  Exhaustive Description The  p e r s o n who  i s e x p e r i e n c i n g a m a r r i a g e of s a t i s f a c t i o n i s not  i m m e d i a t e l y c l e a r l y and e x p r e s s e d l y aware of the nuances of why relationship i s satisfying.  However, as the s t o r y of t h e i r  the  relationship  u n f o l d s i n the i n t e r v i e w , and t h e y b e g i n t o l i v e the s a t i s f y i n g and, i n c o n t r a s t , the d i s s a t i s f y i n g e x p e r i e n c e s of t h e i r m a r r i a g e i n d i a l o g u e w i t h the i n t e r v i e w e r , the e x p e r i e n c e r e v e a l s i t s e l f . t o l d of e x p e r i e n c e s t h a t r e v e a l e d ease of  Co-researchers  communication,  s e l f - d i s c l o s u r e , commitment t o the m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p , i n t i m a c y , v a l u e s consensus,  shared g o a l s , couple s o l i d a r i t y , r e s p e c t ,  j o i e de v i v r e , complementary d i f f e r e n c e s , autonomy/dependence, o u t l o o k on m a r r i a g e and l i f e ,  strong personal i d e n t i t y ,  s e c u r i t y / s u p p o r t and an e x i s t e n t i a l c o u p l e i d e n t i t y . e x i s t e n t i a l r e a l i t i e s and themes of m a r i t a l E f f e c t i v e communication  and c o n t i n u a l communication day-to-day  living.  emotional  These a r e t h e  satisfaction.  i s e x p e r i e n c e d on two l e v e l s .  l e v e l i n v o l v e s an ease of communication  realistic  A primary  that manifests i t s e l f  as open  between p a r t n e r s d u r i n g the c o u r s e o f  I t i s i n f o r m a t i o n s h a r i n g and e x p r e s s i n g concerns  and annoyances when they o c c u r r a t h e r t h a n h a v i n g them e s c a l a t e and come out l a t e r as b l o w n - o u t - o f - p r o p o r t i o n f r u s t r a t i o n s and anger.  As  - 71 -  C o - r e s e a r c h e r one e x p r e s s e d , " i f something it.  i s n ' t g o i n g ok we t a l k about  As a g e n e r a l p a t t e r n i t ' s n o t h a r b o u r e d ; so t h a t f e e l s good."  The  communication  n o t o n l y c e n t e r s on p r e v e n t a t i v e concerns but i s a l s o  communication  about i d e a s , o b s e r v a t i o n s i n l i f e ,  personal experiences  and the s h a r i n g o f t h o u g h t s and f e e l i n g s on a deeper p e r s o n a l l e v e l . C o - r e s e a r c h e r two's e x p e r i e n c e o f t h i s i s i l l u s t r a t e d by t h e s t a t e m e n t , "so we'd d i s c u s s whatever was the e s s a y t o p i c .  I f she had t o do the  e s s a y t o p i c e v e r y week o r two weeks o r whatever t h e h e l l i t was. j u s t great discussion!." communication  These i n d i v i d u a l s v a l u e k e e p i n g the  open and f l o w i n g .  I t i s l i k e a mountain stream, s p l a s h i n g  and b u b b l i n g about the ongoing e x p e r i e n c e o f i t s t r a v e l s . moving s t r e a m , the communication  As w i t h the  between t h e p a r t n e r s i s c o n s t a n t and  new, and y e t , l i k e t h e r e g u l a r i t y o f the f l o w , t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p which t h e communication encourages return.  communicative  Oh,  within  o c c u r s i s c o n s i s t e n t and dependable and ease.  He/she i s heard and l i s t e n s c a r e f u l l y i n  What happens i n t h e i r l i v e s a p a r t i s s h a r e d when they a r e back  together. A deeper l e v e l o f communication d i s c l o s i n g communication satisfaction.  o c c u r s as s e l f - d i s c l o s u r e .  i s a f a c t o r that c o n t r i b u t e s to m a r i t a l  A r e v e a l i n g o f deeper p a r t s o f the s e l f o c c u r s t h a t  heightens the t r u s t , honesty, genuiness relationship.  Self  and i n t i m a c y o f the  I t I n v o l v e s d i s c o v e r i n g one's own p o t e n t i a l t o e x p r e s s  s e l f t r u t h f u l l y t o one's p a r t n e r t o one's s e l f . partner f o r help with s e l f understanding. t h e r a p e u t i c and growth  producing.  A l o o k i n g t o one's  I t i s e x p e r i e n c e d as  I t occurs i n s p i t e of f e a r s of  possible emotional pain f o r oneself.  Co-researcher three describes i t  - l i -  as  f o l l o w s , " I t ' s s o r t o f l i k e you have a b o i l .  I t p a i n s and when you  l a n c e i t t h e r e ' s a sharp p a i n .  I t i s a r e l i e f a l t h o u g h the p a i n i s much  sharper.  You squeeze i t and i t h u r t s a l i t t l e  Then i t d i s s s i p a t e s .  more b u t t h e s t u f f oozes o u t . " Not a p a r t i c u l a r l y p l e a s a n t image b u t one t h a t i s t e l l i n g i n i t s g r a p h i c n e s s . E m o t i o n a l commitment o c c u r s t o t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p . W i t h ease o f communication and s e l f d i s c l o s u r e t h e r e e x i s t s an e m o t i o n a l commitment t o t h e p a r t n e r and t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p .  The  commitment i s e x p e r i e n c e d as each p a r t n e r b e i n g a v a i l a b l e t o and f o r the o t h e r i n e x i s t e n t i a l ways. to the r e l a t i o n s h i p o c c u r s . e x i s t s that i s enacted when needed.  A deep sense o f b e l o n g i n g and r e s p o n s i b i l i t y A b e l i e f i n t h e f u t u r e o f the m a r r i a g e  t h r o u g h c o n s c i o u s h a r d work on t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p  The commitment o p e r a t e s on a s u b c o n s c i o u s  t o day b a s i s .  l e v e l on a day  T o l e r a n c e i s r e c o g n i z e d as n e c e s s a r y t o m a i n t a i n t h e  r e l a t i o n s h i p d u r i n g t r y i n g and d i f f i c u l t Co-researcher  times.  three expressed h i s b e l i e f w i t h the statement,  " s a t i s f a c t i o n i s n o t j u s t s i t t i n g h a p p i l y t o g e t h e r on a bench i n the sunset.  I t h i n k s a t i s f a c t i o n i s r e a l l y g r i n d i n g i t o u t . " The same  e x p e r i e n c e was r e l a t e d by C o - r e s e a r c h e r  f o u r i n the f o l l o w i n g manner,  "on o c c a s i o n I do s t a r t t h i n k i n g , what t h e h e l l am I d o i n g h e r e . then I ' l l  s t a r t t h i n k i n g , because I want i t t o work.  I'll  And  force myself  t o t h i n k o f t h e good t h i n g s even though my s t a t e o f mind i s c o m p l e t e l y n e g a t i v e a t the time. So i t ' s d i f f i c u l t . " u n s e l f i s h ways.  I'll  t r y and t a l k m y s e l f out o f b e i n g n e g a t i v e .  The f e e l i n g s o f commitment a r e e x p r e s s e d i n  A g i v i n g o f o n e s e l f w i t h o u t g u a r a n t e e o f immediate  partner responsiveness.  Love and commitment i s shown by d o i n g t h i n g s  - 73  for  -  one's p a r t n e r t h a t i n d i c a t e a v a i l a b i l i t y and d e p e n d a b i l i t y .  d e f i n i t e a p p r e c i a t i o n of the p a r t n e r and the r e l a t i o n s h i p The  s t r a n d s of e x p e r i e n c e are connected  A  exists.  through i n t i m a c y .  This  o c c u r s as f e e l i n g s o f c o n n e c t i o n w i t h the l i f e e n e r g i e s of the p a r t n e r on e m o t i o n a l , p h y s i c a l and i n t e l l e c t u a l l e v e l s .  T h i s means t h a t i t  o f t e n has t o be encouraged by " s e t t i n g the s c e n e . "  For example  c o - r e s e a r c h e r s e t s a s i d e F r i d a y n i g h t s as " t o g e t h e r n i g h t s . " the e f f o r t t o show l o v e , " i s how is  c o n s c i o u s l y expressed  inspired. The  I t was  "Making  d e s c r i b e d by a n o t h e r .  Intimacy  and keeps the r e l a t i o n s h i p a l i v e , v i t a l  The meaning o f b e i n g t o g e t h e r i s renewed p a r t i c i p a n t i n a marriage  of s a t i s f a c t i o n f e e l s a c o n n e c t i o n to  e x p e r i e n c e d i s t h r o u g h a consensus of v a l u e s . as h a v i n g v a l u e s s i m i l a r t o one's own  One  way  this i s  E x p e r i e n c i n g the p a r t n e r  develops a r e l a t i o n s h i p that helps  t r a n s c e n d any f e e l i n g s of doubt i n the m a r i t a l bond.  f e e l i n g s of a t t a c h m e n t t o and c o m f o r t w i t h the p a r t n e r . e x p e r i e n c e of a u n i f y i n g way  and  continually.  the p a r t n e r t h r o u g h s h a r e d ways of b e i n g i n the w o r l d .  to  one  There are There i s the  of b e i n g and d i r e c t i o n i n . l i f e .  A  s p i r i t u a l c o n n e c t i o n t h a t i s not n e c e s s a r i l y r e l i g i o u s e x i s t s .  The  p e r s o n e x p e r i e n c e s a t r u s t i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p stemming from shared values. life  There i s a r e c o g n i t i o n t h a t the t h i n g s most i m p o r t a n t i n one's  are s h a r e d by one's p a r t n e r .  There i s a s a t i s f y i n g awareness of a  n a t u r a l e x p r e s s i o n of the p a r t n e r ' s way one's  of b e i n g t h a t i s c o n g r u e n t w i t h  own. The  e x p e r i e n c e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s l i v e d by the  on a l e v e l of s h a r e d g o a l s and a shared f u t u r e v i s i o n . of  s u p p o r t f o r each o t h e r ' s i n d i v i d u a l g o a l s .  participants  It also consists  T h i s i s an o r i e n t a t i o n , a  - 74  -  common d i r e c t i o n i n the m a r r i a g e and l i f e . r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h i s shared d i r e c t i o n . t o g e t h e r n e s s and accomplishment  I t g i v e s the m a r r i a g e a sense  i n the p r e s e n t and hope f o r the  A c o u p l e s o l i d a r i t y pervades  the r e l a t i o n s h i p .  t h a t h e i g h t e n s the f e e l i n g s of u n i q u e n e s s marriage.  Partners f e e l mutually  I t i s a f e e l i n g o f , "we  future.  I t i s an e x p e r i e n c e  and e x c l u s i v i t y i n the  d i d i t t o g e t h e r , " t h a t draws the  c o u p l e c l o s e r and b r i n g s a deeper meaning to t h e i r l i v e s is  of  together.  It  t u r n i n g t o one's p a r t n e r f o r h e l p and f i n d i n g s u p p o r t , u n d e r s t a n d i n g  and l o v e .  I t may  i n v o l v e going through i n t e n s e emotional experiences  such as the l o s s of a c h i l d , d e a t h t h r e a t e n i n g i l l n e s s o r crisis.  Or i t may  financial  be e x p e r i e n c e d as e m o t i o n a l s u p p o r t on a  b a s i s t h a t i s e q u a l l y p o w e r f u l and  day-to-day  unifying.  L i k e a s o l i d base l i n e i n a j a z z a r r a n g e m e n t , r e s p e c t f o r one's p a r t n e r and f e e l i n g r e s p e c t e d i n r e t u r n , keeps the r e l a t i o n s h i p tempo.  T h i s r e s p e c t d e v e l o p s and grows t h r o u g h the c o u r s e of s h a r i n g  l i f e together. person.  on  I t c o n t r i b u t e s t o one's f e e l i n g s of v a l i d a t i o n as a  I t i s an a c c e p t a n c e  of one's p a r t n e r t h a t goes beyond  a d m i r a t i o n ; i t i s e x p e r i e n c e d as a mature p o s i t i v e r e g a r d . One's p a r t n e r o f f e r s a " j o i e de v i v r e " t h a t i s an e m o t i o n a l p l u s for is  t h e f e e l i n g s of p o s i t i v e n e s s , h a p p i n e s s and r e l a t i o n s h i p e a s e .  It  h a v i n g f u n and e n j o y i n g b e i n g w i t h one's p a r t n e r . W h i l e p a r t n e r s f e e l a s t r o n g bond based on s h a r e d g o a l s  and  i n t e r e s t s t h e r e i s a l s o an a p p r e c i a t i o n and u n d e r s t a n d i n g of the s t r e n g t h of p e r c e i v e d d i f f e r e n c e s . of  The  t h e i r p e r s o n a l i t y t h a t f e e l s goods.  one's p a r t n e r .  person experiences a b a l a n c i n g The  e x p e r i e n c e c o n n e c t s one w i t h  As e x p r e s s e d by C o - r e s e a r c h e r t h r e e t h i s  connectedness  - 75 -  involves enjoying the "otherness" of one's partner without necessarily wanting to be that way oneself. These complementary differences blend in with the experience of autonomy/dependence.  The drive for autonomy and i t s opposing force, the  need for a sense of belonging, have achieved a comfortable balance. It is experienced as a freedom and self determination coupled with feeling good about a dependence on one's partner. being available for one's partner.  It is also experienced as  Being supportive and dependable in a  way that frees both to make their own decisions.  Opportunities and  support for discovering and enacting options, personal talents and abilities are available and satisfying.  Having the emotional and  financial resources contributes to achieving this melodic counterpoint in marriage. Being satisfied in one's marital relationship involves an awareness, understanding and acceptance of marriage and l i f e ' s realities.  The partners are able to accept the human limitations and  faults of one another; the lack of perfection that may have seemed impossible at the beginning of the relationship.  A mature attitude  toward romantic idealizations and unrealistic expections has developed. It ties in with the theme of Emotional Commitment in a mature and practical manner. The phenomenon of marital satisfaction includes the realization that one feels a strength to the relationship that comes from both partners conveying a positive self identity; a recognition and acceptance of self. of the marriage.  It is expressed in constructive ways to the benefit  - 76 -  The s y n t h e s i s o f the m a r r i a g e e m o t i o n a l s e c u r i t y and s u p p o r t .  I s developed  The p a r t i c i p a n t s l o o k t o the m a r r i a g e  as a r e f u g e from t h e i n s e c u r i t i e s o f l i f e comfortable place to " r e f u e l . "  the r e l a t i o n s h i p e x i s t s .  and the w o r l d .  A safe,  The p a r t n e r i s e x p e r i e n c e d as  s u p p o r t i v e , t r u s t w o r t h y and d e p e n d a b l e . of  through e x p e r i e n c i n g  A c o n f i d e n c e i n the c o n t i n u e n c e  Out o f t h e e m o t i o n a l s u p p o r t and s e c u r i t y  comes a " g e n t l e k i n d o f l o v e . "  There i s the r e a l i z a t i o n t h a t one can  r e l a x and be o n e s e l f i n the m a r r i a g e w i t h o u t f e e l i n g t h a t one i s d e a l i n g w i t h a f r a g i l e s t r u c t u r e t h a t may c o l l a p s e w i t h the s l i g h t e s t provocation.  As C o - r e s e a r c h e r  f o u r p o i n t e d o u t , i n h e r m a r r i a g e she  l e a r n e d t h a t she c o u l d argue and s t i l l thought  remain t o g e t h e r .  i m p o s s i b l e from h e r e x p e r i e n c e w i t h h e r f a m i l y o f o r i g i n .  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i n v o l v e s more t h a n a m a r r i a g e numerous s a t i s f y i n g e x p e r i e n t i a l components. blended  Something she  I t i s a u n i t y t h a t has  the s a t i s f a c t i o n s and d i s s f a c t i o n s o f l i f e  phenomenon o f l i v e d e x p e r i e n t i a l d i m e n s i o n s couple i d e n t i t y .  The m a r r i a g e  and m a r r i a g e  and t h e p a r t i c i p a n t s i n . i t a r e I t i s e x p e r i e n c e d as a  o f o n e s e l f i n the w o r l d o f one's p a r t n e r w h i l e a t  the same time m a i n t a i n i n g a s t r o n g s e l f - i d e n t i t y . e m o t i o n a l c l o s e n e s s and mature l o v e e x i s t .  Genuine f e e l i n g s o f  The s a t i s f a c t i o n of the  marriage  has n o t j u s t happened but has been c r e a t e d t h r o u g h  effort.  P o s i t i v e f e e l i n g s about extended  The c o u p l e  t o any c h i l d r e n t h e r e may be i n the m a r r i a g e .  i l l u s t r a t e s h i s e x p e r i e n c e of an extended  joint  f a m i l y add a d i m e n s i o n o f  s u p p o r t and c a r i n g t h a t a f f i r m s t h e m a r r i a g e . extends  into a  c r e a t i n g an e x i s t e n t i a l  e x p e r i e n c e d as one i n an e x i s t e n t i a l r e a l i t y . m e r g i n g and immersing  c o n s i s t i n g of  identity  Co-researcher  two  c o u p l e i d e n t i t y as f o l l o w s , " I  -  think  t h a t what has happened i s t h a t  77  -  the r e l a t i o n s h i p between C. and  m y s e l f has grown i n t o a r e l a t i o n s h i p between the f o u r of us . . .." [husband, w i f e and two c h i l d r e n ] .  - 78 -  CONDENSED DESCRIPTION  Marital satisfaction i sa multivariate d u r i n g the course of the marriage.  phenomenon t h a t  The p a r t i c i p a n t s  of s a t i s f a c t i o n t h a t a r e i n t e r w o v e n and u l t i m a t e l y  fluctuates  e x p e r i e n c e venues  i n s e p a r a b l e from one  another. M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i n v o l v e s an e f f e c t i v e ease o f between p a r t n e r s . functional  T h i s i n c l u d e s day-to-day  communication  relationship.  producing f o r the  A s t r o n g e m o t i o n a l commitment t o t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p i s  I t i n c l u d e s a deep sense of f a i t h i n t h e p a r t n e r and t h e  marriage. marital  of a  and p r e v e n t a t i v e n a t u r e a n d , on a deeper l e v e l ,  s e l f - d i s c l o s u r e e x i s t s t h a t i s t h e r a p e u t i c and growth  present.  communication  This manifests i t s e l f  bond.  i n a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o and f o r t h e  I t I s b u i l t and m a i n t a i n e d t h r o u g h r e l a t i o n s h i p  "work"  and t o l e r a n c e . I n t i m a c y i s v a l u e d and o c c u r s on i n t e l l e c t u a l , e m o t i o n a l and physical  levels.  V a l u e s consensus Participants  I t helps i n keeping the r e l a t i o n s h i p v i t a l  and a l i v e .  i s b a s i c t o the s a t i s f a c t i o n of the marriage.  e x p e r i e n c e a t r u s t i n t h e p a r t n e r and t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p  stem from knowing t h e i r r e s p e c t i v e v a l u e s have remained the c o u r s e o f t h e m a r r i a g e .  congruent  that  over  Couple and i n d i v i d u a l g o a l s a r e s h a r e d and  supported i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p .  T h i s g i v e t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p d i r e c t i o n and  s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e p r e s e n t and p o s i t i v e f e e l i n g s f o r t h e f u t u r e . A f e e l i n g of couple s o l i d a r i t y I s p r e v a l e n t i n the marriage.  It is  an e x p e r i e n c e o f t o g e t h e r n e s s w h e r e i n one f i n d s s u p p o r t f o r t h e common challenges i n l i f e .  T h i s s o l i d a r i t y i s e p i t o m i s e d by t h e f e e l i n g o f  -  "we  d i d i t t o g e t h e r " t h a t may  79  -  be e x p e r i e n c e d a f t e r g o i n g t h r o u g h  c r i s i s t o g e t h e r o r s i m p l y b e i n g t o g e t h e r and  a  f e e l i n g good about i t o v e r  the y e a r s . Typical  o f the i n t e r c o n n e c t e d n e s s of the e x p e r i e n c e of  s a t i s f a c t i o n i s the theme of r e s p e c t . d e f i n e i n terms o f a m a r r i a g e positive partner.  r e g a r d t h a t one The  concept  to c l e a r l y  i t i s perhaps b e s t d e s c r i b e d as a mature  f e e l s f o r and  relationship  A difficult  marital  i n turn feels  i s f u n t o be i n .  o v e r a l l f e e l i n g of a " j o i e de v i v r e . "  The  from one's  T h i s i s e x p e r i e n c e d as  difference  an  i n c h a r a c t e r of  t h e p a r t n e r s i s not o n l y a c c e p t e d but adds t o each p a r t n e r ' s sense of c o m p l e t e n e s s and s a t i s f a c t i o n w i t h the m a r r i a g e . offers  The  relationship  a b a l a n c e o f autonomy/dependence t h a t b o t h p a r t n e r s t h r i v e  Financial  security  f o r both a i d s i n t h i s experience.  People e x p e r i e n c i n g m a r i t a l t h e i r approach to l i f e  s a t i s f a c t i o n tend t o be r e a l i s t i c i n  and m a r r i a g e .  They a c c e p t p a r t n e r  and r e c o g n i z e t h a t one must a l l o w f o r u n r e a l i s t i c i d e a l s being married.  on.  To d e a l w i t h the r e a l i t i e s of l i f e  short-comings related  and m a r r i a g e  to the  p a r t n e r s need t o be a b l e t o draw on t h e i r p e r s o n a l r e s o u r c e s grounded i n a strong personal i d e n t i t y . supported security  A strong personal i d e n t i t y i s i n turn  and n u r t u r e d t h r o u g h a r e l a t i o n s h i p and s u p p o r t .  relationship  Marital  t h a t a l l o w s one  that offers  emotional  s a t i s f a c t i o n o c c u r s i n the c o n t e x t of a  t o " r e f u e l " and  to experience a "gentle  k i n d of l o v e . " The e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l e x i s t e n t i a l couple i d e n t i t y .  s a t i s f a c t i o n o c c u r s on the l e v e l of an I n t e r t w i n e d w i t h couple s o l i d a r i t y ,  e x i s t e n t i a l c o u p l e of i d e n t i t y i s e x p e r i e n c e d more on an a f f e c t i v e  level  - 80  -  t h a n the c o g n i t i v e / b e h a v i o r a l make-up of c o u p l e s o l i d a r i t y . b e i n g a c o u p l e because of c h o i c e  that provides  meaning i n  I t involves life.  - 81 -  CHAPTER V  DISCUSSION  Summary The  e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l approach to understanding the  e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n produced f i f t e e n themes t h a t were common t o a l l f i v e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s .  The e x p e r i e n c e  i s t h e same f o r each  c o - r e s e a r c h e r as r e v e a l e d by t h e themes but e x a c t l y how I t i s experienced  i s u n i q u e f o r each i n d i v i d u a l .  On t h e b a s i s of these common  themes a d e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e e s s e n t i a l s t r u c t u r e o f m a r i t a l was w r i t t e n .  The a n a l y s i s moved beyond t h e d e s c r i p t i v e  satisfaction  identification  of e s s e n t i a l q u a l i t i e s and u n c o v e r e d h i d d e n meanings i n what had been e x p l i c i t l y given.  The c o - r e s e a r c h e r s v a l i d a t e d t h e e x h a u s t i v e  d e s c r i p t i o n and a l l f i f t e e n  themes.  T h i s s t u d y does n o t assume t h a t t h e e x h a u s t i v e  description  encompasses t h e e n t i r e p o p u l a t i o n o f p e o p l e e x p e r i e n c i n g m a r i t a l satisfaction.  I t provides a very c l e a r s t a r t i n g p o i n t f o r f u r t h e r study  of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n ; not o b j e c t i v e " f a c t s . "  The e x p e r i e n c e may v a r y  from c u l t u r e t o c u l t u r e . The  themes and e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n a r e congruent w i t h some o f  the data gathered 1969;  through v a r i o u s q u a n t i t a t i v e r e s e a r c h s t u d i e s ( L i v e l y ,  B a r r y , 1970; Cohn, 1975; K i n d e l a n & M c C a r r e y , 1979; Ammons &  S t i n n e t t , 1980; P i t t m a n , P r i c e - B o n h a m & McKenry, 1 9 8 3 ) .  There a r e a l s o  many p o i n t s i n common w i t h t h e t h r e e q u a l i t a t i v e s t u d i e s ( B e c k , 1983; B r i l l i n g e r , 1983; and L a w r e n c e , 1982) t h a t were r e v i e w e d  i n C h a p t e r two.  -  82 -  T h i s r e s e a r c h has q u a l i t a t i v e l y i n v e s t i g a t e d t h e p e r s o n ' s  w o r l d as  l i v e d by them and r e p o r t s t h e r e s u l t s i n a d e s c r i p t i v e form t h a t " f r e e z e s " the experience i n time; r a t h e r l i k e pushing  t h e pause b u t t o n  on a v i d e o p l a y b a c k machine so t h a t one can c a r e f u l l y s c r u t i n i z e a segment of t h e whole g e s t a l t .  P e r s o n a l Dialogue At the beginning of the i n v e s t i g a t i o n I wrote a b r i e f of my p e r s o n a l a s s u m p t i o n s .  explication  My i n t e r e s t i n t h e phenomenon o f m a r i t a l  s a t i s f a c t i o n was n o t from t h e p o i n t o f v i e w o f one who was e x p e r i e n c i n g i t at the time.  Coming from t h e p o s i t i o n o f f e e l i n g t h a t I had  e x p e r i e n c e d i t i n t h e p a s t t o knowing t h a t I wasn't i n t h e p r e s e n t perhaps made my assumptions  p a r t i c u l a r l y powerful.  As I had s t a t e d , I f e l t t h a t t h e r o l e of v a l u e s consensus was a very important c o n t r i b u t i o n to the experience of m a r i t a l My a s s u m p t i o n  satisfaction.  was met w i t h t h e v e r y c l e a r e x p e r i e n c e o f v a l u e s consensus  t h a t t h e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s spoke o f .  However, t h e r e were-, as I had a l s o  assumed, many more v a r i a b l e s o r e x p e r i e n c e s t h a t c o n t r i b u t e t o t h e meaning o f m a r i t a l  satisfaction.  As I once a g a i n r e a d o v e r t h e themes and e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n I was  s t r u c k by t h e connectedness  was  able to look at marriages  o f t h e themes.  I was s u r p r i s e d t h a t I  t h a t were e x p e r i e n c i n g harmony and  s a t i s f a c t i o n and e x p l i c a t e such s p e c i f i c y e t i n t e r c o n n e c t e d e x p e r i e n c e s from f i v e seemingly  unrelated individuals.  T h e i r r e l a t e d n e s s being, of  c o u r s e , t h e i r common e x p e r i e n c e of t h e phenomenon.  I f e e l t h a t I have  not o n l y been a b l e t o make c l e a r my own assumptions  before t r y i n g to  - 83 -  answer my q u e s t i o n but a l s o show t h a t q u a n t i t a t i v e d a t a can p r o v i d e r i c h , descriptive information.  S t a t i s t i c s such as those c i t e d i n  C h a p t e r one o f t h i s t h e s i s t e l l us o n l y t h a t something d e s t r u c t i v e i s c l e a r l y happening t o marriages s a t i s f y i n g marriages  today.  By l o o k i n g a t t h e p o s i t i v e ,  o f the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s , I have made v i s i b l e a c l e a r ,  r i c h and v i b r a n t d e s c r i p t i o n o f n o t o n l y what keeps these t o g e t h e r but what makes them s a t i s f y i n g . plagued  unsuccessful marriages  s a t i s f a c t i o n based on those  Rather  t h a n s e a r c h i n g f o r what  and t h e n c r e a t i n g a t h e o r y o f m a r i t a l  f a c t o r s , I have put a s i d e t h e o r i e s and  c o n s t r u c t s t o i n v e s t i g a t e t h e phenomenon as l i v e d . (1979) have s u g g e s t e d ,  marriages  q u a l i t a t i v e r e s e a r c h suggests  d i f f e r e n c e s m i g h t make m e a n i n g f u l  As F i s c h e r & Wertz which q u a l i t a t i v e  quantitativedifferences.  Theoretical Implications T h i s s t u d y touches on each o f the f o u r t h e o r i e s r e v i e w e d .  It i s  the c r e a t i o n o f a c l e a r and comprehensive d e s c r i p t i o n o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n t h a t goes beyond t h e t h e o r i e s r e v i e w e d compatible  w i t h p o i n t s from a l l o f them:  and y e t I s  psychoanalytic  theory,  s y m b o l i c - i n t e r a c t i o n t h e o r y , s o c i a l exchange t h e o r y and b e h a v i o r a l theory.  I t draws t o g e t h e r p o i n t s f r o m each t h e o r y i n t o a d e s c r i p t i o n o f  meaning w i t h o u t  proposing  a hypothesis  Psychoanalytic theory i s d i f f i c u l t satisfaction.  or theory  itself.  to relate d i r e c t l y to m a r i t a l  The t h e o r y tends toward a c a u s a t i v e , somewhat s p e c u l a t i v e  frame o f r e f e r e n c e t h a t i s n o t e a s y t o v e r i f y w i t h o u t l o n g s e s s i o n s o f psychoanalysis. one's p r i m a r y  I t seems t h a t the a s s u m p t i o n s o f the i m p o r t a n c e of  love r e l a t i o n s h i p s i n childhood (mother-father)  relate  - 84 -  v e r y c l e a r l y t o t h e themes o f I n t i m a c y , Strong Personal I d e n t i t y .  Autonomy/Dependence, and a  Freud's t h e o r y o f a n a c l i t i c and n a r c i s s i s t i c  l o v e p a r a l l e l s t h e theme o f Autonomy/Dependence. found t h i s b a l a n c e balance  Perhaps those  i n t h e i r m a r i t a l r e l a t i o n s h i p s experienced  who have  a healthy  o f a n a c l i t i c and n a r c i s s i s t i c l o v e i n t h e i r e a r l y c h i l d h o o d .  The  psychoanalytic theory of object r e l a t i o n s e s s e n t i a l l y  states  t h a t one's sense o f s e l f i s o f u l t i m a t e i m p o r t a n c e as t o how one f u n c t i o n s i n a m a r i t a l bond. to  Object  r e l a t i o n s theory d i r e c t l y r e l a t e s  t h e theme o f S t r o n g P e r s o n a l I d e n t i t y .  Tied i n w i t h a Strong  P e r s o n a l I d e n t i t y i s t h e a b i l i t y t o s e l f - d i s c l o s e e f f e c t i v e l y , t o commit oneself to a r e l a t i o n s h i p , to f i n d a comfortable  balance  between  autonomy/dependence and t h e a b i l i t y t o be p a r t o f an E x i s t e n t i a l Couple Identity. P s y c h o a n a l y t i c t h e o r y a l s o r e l a t e s t o V a l u e s Consensus as s u g g e s t e d by B a r r y ( 1 9 7 0 ) .  M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n may v e r y w e l l h i n g e on t h e  developmental processes  of the p e r s o n a l i t y .  I t would seem t h a t many o f  the f a c t o r s i d e n t i f i e d t h r o u g h t h e p r o t o c o l a n a l y s i s , i f not a l l , c o u l d be r e l a t e d i n some way t o p s y c h o a n a l y t i c t h e o r y .  Freud h i m s e l f  probably  summed i t up b e s t w i t h t h i s quote from J e a n M a r t i n C h a r c o t (1835-1893): Theory i s good; b u t I t d o e s n ' t p r e v e n t  t h i n g s from e x i s t i n g  (Sigmund  Freud, 1893). Symbolic i n t e r a c t i o n theory r e l a t e s t o object r e l a t i o n s theory of psychoanalysis  i n i t s c o n c e r n w i t h t h e i n f l u e n c e of p e r s o n s and e v e n t s  ( s y m b o l s ) on one's p r e s e n t  way o f r e l a t i n g t o t h e w o r l d .  The m i d d l e  range t h e o r y o f B u r r e t a l . (1979) i s d i f f i c u l t t o connect w i t h my  -  findings.  85  -  I f the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s e x p e r i e n c e t h e i r m a r i t a l  satisfaction  i n terms of r o l e enactment and r o l e e x p e c t a t i o n s i t does not come out clearly i n their stories. t h a t each m a r r i a g e  I n f a c t one c o - r e s e a r c h e r n o t e d how  f i n d s i t s own  s u c c e s s f u l way  she c o u l d n ' t use o t h e r s f o r c o m p a r i s o n  of o p e r a t i n g and  w i t h her own  marriage.  e x p e r i e n c e d i t as a much more i n t e r n a l i z e d p r o c e s s .  The  but as s t a t e d e a r l i e r a s i t u a t i o n has meaning o n l y t h r o u g h  that She  they  live  people's  t h e e x p e r i e n c e as i t i s l i v e d by them.  summary, t h i s s t u d y showed l i t t l e  In  to r e l a t e co-researchers m a r i t a l  s a t i s f a c t i o n t o t h e r o l e b e h a v i o r of s e l f and spouse i n c o m p a r i s o n one's own  reference group.  felt  co-researchers  a r e no doubt i n f l u e n c e d by t h e c u l t u r e and s o c i e t y i n w h i c h  i n t e r p r e t a t i o n of i t ;  she  There may  to  be an u n d e r l y i n g i n f l u e n c e but  t h i s i s not e x p r e s s e d as b e i n g p a r t of the s a t i s f a c t i o n f o r the co-researchers. S o c i a l exchange t h e o r y i s c e r t a i n l y congruent findings.  w i t h some of the  Most s p e c i f i c a l l y V a l u e s Consensus, C o u p l e S o l i d a r i t y ,  E m o t i o n a l Commitment and E m o t i o n a l S e c u r i t y / S u p p o r t .  That i s ,  c o - r e s e a r c h e r s t a l k e d about s o c i a l exchange as a v e r y i m p o r t a n t p a r t of t h e i r marriage.  What i s h a p p e n i n g i n t h e i r r e l a t i o n s h i p f e e l s good  s a t i s f y i n g so c o n s e q u e n t l y t h e p a r t i c i p a n t s v a l u e i t and experience i n i t . costs minimized.  find  M u t u a l rewards appear t o be maximized and  positive individual  T h i s a l l o w s the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s t o e x p e r i e n c e  s a t i s f a c t i o n and p r o b a b l y the E x i s t e n t i a l C o u p l e I d e n t i t y t h a t identified.  and  They a l s o e x p e r i e n c e hope and  was  rewards f o r t h e f u t u r e .  This  i n f o r m a t i o n c o u l d perhaps be s e p a r a t e d i n t o the c a t e g o r i e s of a p r e m a r i t a l f a c t o r s , s o c i a l and economic f a c t o r s , and i n t e r p e r s o n a l and d y a d i c f a c t o r s as p r e s e n t e d by B u r r e t a l . (1979) i f t h e r e were  any  - 86 -  r e a s o n f o r d o i n g so a t t h i s p o i n t . evidenced asymmetrical exchanges.  Key t o t h i s t h e o r y i s t h a t  marriages  T h i s may be h i g h l y dependent on t h e  p e r s o n a l i t y o f each i n d i v i d u a l i n t h e dyad.  T h i s c o u l d have v e r y w e l l  have been t r u e of t h e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s i n t h i s s t u d y but was n o t an a r e a being explored. B e h a v i o r a l t h e o r y i s , as s t a t e d by W e i s s ( 1 9 7 8 ) , not p a r t i c u l a r l y c o n v e r s a n t w i t h a t h e o r y of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  Behavioral principles  a r e c e r t a i n l y used i n t h e r a p y t o h e l p change b e h a v i o r s i n a r e l a t i o n s h i p but b e h a v i o r i s m i t s e l f f o l l o w s more o f a s o c i a l exhange p a t t e r n when i t comes t o m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  As w i t h s o c i a l exchange t h e o r y ,  b e h a v i o r a l t h e o r y i s i n t e r t w i n e d w i t h t h e f i n d i n g s of t h i s s t u d y .  As  W e i s s ' s (1978) model s u g g e s t s , m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i n v o l v e s a b a l a n c e t h a t p e r m i t s t h e p a r t n e r s t o maximize b e n e f i t s w h i l e m i n i m i z i n g c o s t s . C e r t a i n l y t h e e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n speaks t o a r e l a t i o n s h i p t h a t has been a c h i e v e d t h r o u g h t h e i n v o l v e m e n t  balance  of a l l t h e themes t o  v a r y i n g degrees.  Implications f o r Counselling T h i s s t u d y i s i n v o l v e d w i t h d e s c r i b i n g t h e meaning of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n and t h e r e b y h e l p i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d i n t e r p e r s o n a l r e l a t i o n s h i p of m a r r i a g e .  more about t h e  Counsellors are often involved  w i t h h e l p i n g i n d i v i d u a l s and c o u p l e s a t t a i n s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r marriages.  T h i s s t u d y can a s s i s t t h e c o u n s e l l o r i n h i s / h e r  r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and c h a l l e n g e of e s t a b l i s h i n g c r i t e r i a t o h e l p b e f o r e and d u r i n g t h e i r m a r r i a g e s satisfaction.  people  t o c r e a t e and/or enhance m a r i t a l  - 87 -  T h i s s t u d y p r e s e n t s an e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n o f the e x p e r i e n c e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n and themes t h a t p r o v i d e t h e ground e x p e r i e n c e i s based.  upon w h i c h t h e  I t does not p r e s e n t a cookbook s t y l e r e c i p e f o r  achieving marital s a t i s f a c t i o n . r e a l i t i e s o f t h e phenomenon.  I t p r e s e n t s some o f t h e e x i s t e n t i a l  These can be used by t h e c o u n s e l l o r t o  b e t t e r u n d e r s t a n d what I t i s t h a t a c o u p l e o r i n d i v i d u a l may be s e a r c h i n g f o r when t h e y speak o f n o t b e i n g s a t i s f i e d  i n their  marriage.  C l i e n t s c o u l d a l s o be shown t h e e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n and themes t o h e l p them c l a r i f y what i t i s t h a t t h e y f e e l i s m i s s i n g o r needs work, i n d i v i d u a l l y and as a c o u p l e , t o c r e a t e m a r i t a l The  satisfaction.  r e s u l t s o f t h i s s t u d y c o u l d be used t o d e v e l o p workshops and  c o u n s e l l i n g s t r a t e g i e s f o r p r e - m a r i t a l assessment o f c o m p a t i b i l i t y and preparation f o r a healthy marriage.  Through t h e u t i l i z a t i o n o f s p e c i f i c  themes i n d i v i d u a l s and c o u p l e s c a n be made aware o f some o f t h e s p e c i f i c s n e c e s s a r y f o r b u i l d i n g sound s u s t a i n e d m a r r i a g e s of s a t i s f a c t i o n . The themes o f V a l u e s Consensus, Shared  Goals,  Complementary D i f f e r e n c e s , J o i e de V i v r e and R e s p e c t  cannot  c r e a t e d i f t h e y do n o t a l r e a d y e x i s t i n t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p .  be e n t i r e l y This implies  t h e need f o r p r e - m a r i t a l c o u n s e l l i n g t h a t i n c l u d e s an e x a m i n a t i o n of t h e s e a r e a s by t h e c o u p l e t o b r i n g t o t h e i r awareness p o s s i b l e a r e a s o f future c o n f l i c t .  B e i n g aware o f i n c o n g r u e n c i e s i n t h e s e a r e a s w i l l  help  c o u p l e s work toward m i n i m i z i n g t h e d i f f e r e n c e s o r even come t o t h e r e a l i z a t i o n t h a t t h e d i f f e r e n c e s p r e s e n t a r e t o o g r e a t t o w i t h s t a n d the p r e s s u r e o f t h e l o n g - t e r m commitment o f m a r r i a g e . T h i s r e s e a r c h a l s o p o i n t s to areas of i n t e r p e r s o n a l  skill  development t h a t c o u p l e s need t o be aware o f and have competence i n t o  - 88  create  and  -  enhance m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n .  These s k i l l s I n c l u d e  primarily  the themes o f Ease of Communication and  Self-Disclosure.  not new  r e i n f o r c e d by the d a t a g i v e n  the  a r e a s of c o n c e r n but  once a g a i n  Most c e r t a i n l y by  co-researchers. B e s i d e s the need f o r c o u p l e s to work on the above mentioned  areas,  c o u n s e l l o r s must be aware t h a t each i n d i v i d u a l i n a m a r r i a g e may f a c e t s of t h e i r p e r s o n a l i t y t h a t d e c i d e d l y experience s a t i s f a c t i o n i n a marriage. of themes t h i s may  r e l a t e t o how  about and  themselves.  perceive  R e a l i s t i c O u t l o o k on M a r r i a g e and Emotional Security/Support,  The  As p o i n t e d  out  to  i n the e x p l i c t i o n feel  themes of Autonomy/Dependence,  L i f e , Strong Personal  E m o t i o n a l Commitment, and  with i n d i v i d u a l s ' issues that b a s i s and w i t h the p a r t n e r s  affect their ability  the i n d i v i d u a l s i n a m a r r i a g e The  have  should  Identity  Intimacy a l l deal  be d e a l t w i t h on a one-to-one  together.  themes of Couple S o l i d a r i t y and  E x i s t e n t i a l Couple I d e n t i t y are  i n t e g r a l t o the e x p e r i e n c e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n but d i f f i c u l t p i n p o i n t as t o how setting.  the  to  e x p e r i e n c e might be advanced i n a c o u n s e l l i n g  I t appears t h a t t h e s e themes may  be the r e s u l t of  the  s u c c e s s f u l i n t e g r a t i o n of p r e - m a r i t a l c o n d i t i o n s , i n t e r p e r s o n a l s k i l l - l e v e l s and The  themes have somewhat a r b i t r a r i l y been d i v i d e d i n t o  groups.  T h i s was  researcher delineated. be  p e r s o n a l i t y v a r i a b l e s of each i n d i v i d u a l p a r t n e r . three  done p r i m a r i l y f o r the purpose of d i s c u s s i o n .  d o e s n ' t b e l i e v e t h a t the themes are r e a l l y t h a t They a r e , r a t h e r , v e r y  c l o s e l y c o n n e c t e d to any  other.  fluid.  This  clearly  Each theme c o u l d  conceivably  - 89 -  Counsellors  a r e c u r r e n t l y p r e s e n t e d w i t h many new and e x c i t i n g  models o f m a r r i a g e and c o u p l e s c o u n s e l l i n g . counsellor  and c l i e n t a r e u s i n g  Whatever a p p r o a c h  t o enable the c l i e n t to l i v e t h e i r  p e r s o n a l and r e l a t i o n s h i p l i f e more f u l l y and e f f e c t i v e l y , t h i s paper could  s e r v e as an e x c e l l e n t s t a r t i n g p l a c e f o r d i s c u s s i o n  and common  u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . As two u n i q u e i n d i v i d u a l s (counsellor  and c l i e n t ) e x p e r i e n c i n g  and l i v i n g two d i f f e r e n t  realities,  t h e i r c o n c e p t o f what m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i s and how t o a t t a i n i t may vary g r e a t l y . counsellor  The e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n can be a s t a r t l i n g p o i n t f o r  and c l i e n t t o b e g i n t o e x p l o r e and i d e n t i f y what i t i s t h e  c l i e n t i s r e a l l y seeking i n l i f e  and m a r r i a g e .  Implications for Future Research E a c h theme e x p l i c a t e d  from t h e p r o t o c o l s  future existential-phenomenological involve  study.  r e p r e s e n t s an a r e a f o r  Future research  f u r t h e r d i a l o g u e w i t h people e x p e r i e n c i n g  could  marital satisfaction  so as t o tune-up and r e f i n e t h e d e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e . theme c o u l d  Each  a l s o be p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l l y examined i n d e p e n d e n t l y t o c l a r i f y  f u r t h e r what t h e e x p e r i e n c e o f each i s i n m a r r i a g e . on p. 5 6 , C o l a i z z i (1978) s t a t e s  As a l r e a d y  quoted  t h a t t h e e x i s t e n t i a l meaning o f the  p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l t h e s i s i s t h a t " r e s e a r c h can n e v e r e x h a u s t t h e investigated  phenomenon, t h a t r e s e a r c h can n e v e r be c o m p l e t e " ( p . 7 0 ) .  Or a s H e i d e g g e r ( c i t e d i n C o l l a i z z i , 1978) a s s e r t s , " t h e s t r u c t u r e o f any  D a s e i n i s such t h a t i t n e v e r ' a r r i v e s ' b u t i s always o n l y  way'" ( p . 7 0 ) .  'on t h e  - 90 -  Conclusions The  purpose o f t h i s e x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l s t u d y was t o u n d e r s t a n d  the meaning o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n as i t i s l i v e d .  Five individuals  ( t h r e e women and two men) who were e x p e r i e n c i n g s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r marriages  were i n t e r v i e w e d .  During the f i r s t  was f u l l y p r e s e n t t o t h e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s .  i n t e r v i e w the researcher  T h i s was done by assuming t h e  s t a n c e o f i m a g i n a t i v e l i s t e n i n g and making e v e r y e f f o r t t o l i s t e n w i t h the t o t a l i t y o f t h e b e i n g . for  t h e meaning o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e , u s i n g q u e s t i o n s when a p p r o p r i a t e i n  the c o n t e x t .  The i n t e r v i e w s were t a p e - r e c o r d e d  C o n f i d e n t i a l i t y was ensured and  The r e s e a r c h e r r e f l e c t e d and g e n t l y probed  t h e people  and then t r a n s c r i b e d .  by u s i n g t h e i n i t i a l s o f t h e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s  and p l a c e s t h e y r e f e r r e d t o . The t r a n s c r i p t s were e r a s e d  when t h e t h e s i s was c o m p l e t e d . a n a l y s i s was then u s e d .  C o l a i z z i ' s (1978) method o f p r o t o c o l  A f t e r e x t r a c t i n g s i g n i f i c a n t s t a t e m e n t s and  f o r m u l a t i n g meaning u n i t s from t h e t r a n s c r i p t s t h e p r o c e s s o f c r e a t i n g themes was begun. statements  This step I n v o l v e d o r g a n i s i n g the s i g n i f i c a n t  and meaning u n i t s around common themes t h r o u g h t h e use o f  creative insight.  I t was n e c e s s a r y  t o check back w i t h t h e p r o t o c o l s t o  e n s u r e t h a t t h e y v a l i d a t e d t h e themes.  That i s , t h e p r o c e s s i n v o l v e d  c h e c k i n g back t o e n s u r e t h a t meanings and themes had not been f o r m u l a t e d t h a t had no c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e p r o t o c o l s ; t h a t t h e a n a l y s i s had a c t u a l l y been t r u e t o t h e c o n t e x t u a l and h o r i z o n t a l meanings g i v e n by the c o - r e s e a r c h e r s . then formulated.  An e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e was  F o l l o w i n g t h i s t h e r e s e a r c h e r r e t u r n e d t o each  co-researcher f o r a v a l i d a t i o n i n t e r v i e w .  T h i s i n t e r v i e w was n o t  - 91 -  t a p e - r e c o r d e d b u t n o t e s were t a k e n r e g a r d i n g changes t h e c o - r e s e a r c h e r s f e l t were needed i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e i r e x p e r i e n c e .  F i n a l l y the  e x h a u s t i v e d e s c r i p t i o n was r e - w r i t t e n and changes made t o some o f the d e s c r i p t i o n s o f t h e themes b e f o r e w r i t i n g o u t t h e c o n c i s e d e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e meaning o f the e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l  satisfaction.  Weiss (1978) s t a t e d t h a t m a r r i a g e has been c a l l e d one o f t h e most p o p u l a r , i n t e r e s t i n g , a l b e i t e l u s i v e forms o f i n t e r p e r s o n a l b e h a v i o r s . T h i s r e s e a r c h e r a g r e e s w i t h h i m w h o l e - h e a r t e d l y and y e t a t t h e same t i m e f e e l s t h a t t h i s s t u d y has h e l p e d t o d e - m y s t i f y some o f the e l u s i v e n e s s o f t h e phenomenon o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . question:  T h i s s t u d y answered t h e  What i s t h e e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n ? , b e t t e r t h a n  anything else discovered.  The c o - r e s e a r c h e r s r e l a t e d s t o r i e s o f  e x p e r i e n c e s t h a t t o l d e x p l i c i t l y and t a c i t l y o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n i n a way t h a t added t e x t u r e and r i c h n e s s t o p r e v i o u s q u a n t i t a t i v e and qualitative  studies.  I found t h e s t u d y p e r s o n a l l y and p r o f e s s i o n a l l y v e r y f u l f i l l i n g and hopeful.  M a r r i a g e s o f s a t i s f a c t i o n can and do e x i s t d e s p i t e p r e v i o u s l y  unheard o f i n t e r p e r s o n a l and s o c i e t a l p r e s s u r e s f a c i n g m a r r i e d today. w i t h me. marriage  I have p e r s o n a l l y b e n e f i t e d from what my c o - r e s e a r c h e r s  couples shared  I now have a p a r a d i g m f r o m w h i c h t o examine my own f u t u r e and t h a t o f c l i e n t s I w i l l be w o r k i n g w i t h whom might be  s t r u g g l i n g with a t t a i n i n g s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r marriages. has been a p o s i t i v e e x p e r i e n c e t h a t has l e f t me s t i m u l a t e d and w i t h a h e i g h t e n e d encouragement f o r m a r r i a g e s  This study  intellectually  awareness f i l l e d w i t h hope and  i n t h e 80's and beyond.  - 92 -  REFERENCES  Ammons, P. & S t i n n e t t , N. ( 1 9 8 0 ) . The v i t a l m a r r i a g e : A c l o s e r look. 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P i t t m a n , J . F . , J r . , P r i c e - B o n h a m , S. & McKenry, P.C. ( 1 9 8 3 ) . Marital c o h e s i o n : A p a t h m o d e l . J o u r n a l o f M a r r i a g e and t h e F a m i l y , 4 5 , 521-531. R a n d e r s - P e h r s o n , S.B. ( 1 9 7 6 ) . The congruence o f s p o u s a l p e r c e p t i o n s and m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n : An e x t r a p o l a t i o n o f L e a r y ' s t h e o r y o f i n t e r p e r s o n a l d i a g n o s i s of p e r s o n a l i t y ( D o c t o r a l d i s s e r t a t i o n , U n i v e r s i t y o f M a r y l a n d , 1976). D i s s e r t a t i o n A b s t r a c t s I n t e r n a t i o n a l , 37, 3091-B. Rhyne, D. ( 1 9 8 1 ) . Bases o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n among men and women. J o u r n a l o f M a r r i a g e and t h e F a m i l y , 4 3 , 941-955. Rokeach, M. Press.  (1973).  The n a t u r e o f human v a l u e s .  New Y o r k :  The F r e e  R o g e r s , L.S., Young, .H, Cohen, I.H., D w o r i n , J . & L i p e t z , M.E. ( 1 9 7 0 ) . M a r i t a l s t a b i l i t y , m e n t a l h e a l t h , and m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . J o u r n a l o f C o n s u l t i n g and C l i n i c a l P s y c h o l o g y , 3 5 , 342-348.  - 97 -  R o l l i n s , B.C. & Cannon, K.L. ( 1 9 7 4 ) . M a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n o v e r the f a m i l y l i f e c y c l e : A r e e v a l u a t i o n . J o u r n a l o f M a r r i a g e and t h e F a m i l y , 36, 271-284. S c h l e s i n g e r , B. and G i b l o n , S.T. (1984). L a s t i n g Marriages. U n i v e r s i t y o f T o r o n t o , Guidance C e n t r e .  Toronto:  Snyder, D.K. ( 1 9 7 9 ) . M u l t i d i m e n s i o n a l assessment of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . J o u r n a l o f M a r r i a g e and t h e F a m i l y , 4 1 , 813-823. S p a n i e r , G.B. ( 1 9 7 6 ) . M e a s u r i n g d y a d i c a d j u s t m e n t : New a s s e s s i n g the q u a l i t y o f m a r r i a g e and s i m i l a r d y a d s . M a r r i a g e and t h e F a m i l y , 4 1 , 813-823.  scales for J o u r n a l of  S p a n i e r , G.B. & C o l e , C L . ( 1 9 7 6 ) . Toward c l a r i f i c a t i o n and i n v e s t i g a t i o n of m a r i t a l adjustment. I n t e r n a t i o n a l J o u r n a l of S o c i o l o g y and t h e F a m i l y , 6^, 121-146. S p a n i e r , G.B. & L e w i s , R.A. ( 1 9 8 0 ) . M a r i t a l Q u a l i t y : A r e v i e w of the s e v e n t i e s . J o u r n a l o f M a r r i a g e and t h e F a m i l y , 42, 825-^838. S p o r a k o w s k i , M.J. & Hughston, G.A. ( 1 9 7 8 ) . P r e s c r i p t i o n s f o r happy m a r r i a g e : A d j u s t m e n t s and s a t i s f a c t i o n s of c o u p l e s m a r r i e d f o r 50 o r more y e a r s . The F a m i l y C o - o r d i n a t o r , 2 7 321-327. 1  S t a t i s t i c s Canada. Divorces.  (1982).  V i t a l S t a t i s t i c s , Vol.11, Marriages  and  S t r y k e r , S. ( 1 9 6 4 ) . The i n t e r a c t i o n a l and s i t u a t i o n a l a p p r o a c h e s . In H.T. C h r i s t e n s o n , ( E d . ) , Handbook o f M a r r i a g e and t h e F a m i l y , (pp. 125-170). C h i c a g o : Rand M c N a l l y . S t u c k e r t , R.P. ( 1 9 6 3 ) . R o l e p e r c e p t i o n and m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n : A c o n f i g u r a t i o n a l approach. M a r r i a g e and F a m i l y L i v i n g , 25, 415-419. Tharp, R.G. (1963). P s y c h o l o g i c a l p a t t e r n i n g i n marriage. P s y c h o l o g i c a l B u l l e t i n , 60, 91-117. T h i b a u t , J.W. New Y o r k :  & K e l l e y , H.H. John W i l e y and  1959. Sons.  The S o c i a l P s y c h o l o g y o f G r o u p s .  V a l l e , R.S. & K i n g , M. (1978). E x i s t e n t i a l - p h e n o m e n o l o g i c a l a l t e r n a t i v e s f o r psychology. New Y o r k : Oxford U n i v e r s i t y P r e s s . Webb, D.G. ( 1 9 7 2 ) . R e l a t i o n s h i p of s e l f - a c c e p t a n c e and s e l f - d i s c l o s u r e t o empathy and m a r i t a l need s a t i s f a c t i o n . D i s s e r t a t i o n A b s t r a c t s I n t e r n a t i o n a l , 33, 1-B.  - 98  -  W e i s s , R. ( 1 9 7 8 ) . The c o n c e p t u a l i z a t i o n of m a r r i a g e from a b e h a v i o r a l perspective. I n T. P a o l i n o and B. McCrady, ( E d s . ) , M a r r i a g e and m a r i t a l t h e r a p y , ( p p . 165-237). New Y o r k : Brunner/Mazel. W i l l s , T.A.., W e i s s , R.L. & P a t t e r s o n , G.R. (1974). A Behavioral a n a l y s i s f o r the d e t e r m i n a n t s o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . J o u r n a l of C o n s u l t i n g and C l i n i c a l P s y c h o l o g y , 42, 802-811.  Table 1 S i g n i f i c a n t Statements  CRj  CR  CR  2  CR  3  1.  1.  1.  I'm never a f r a i d t o b r i n g up an i d e a or suggestion. We'd t a l k about i t and come to some kind of a [ d e c i s i o n ] . . . that i s a q u a l i t y that I . really like.  And a core i s not only the experiences and being together and i r o n i n g out s t r e s s r e l a t e d i s s u e s which u l t i m a t e l y come from that kind of t h i n g , but j u s t g e n e r a l l y and being able to communicate on that one-to-one [ l e v e l ] and making d e c i s i o n s . . . .  We always communicated what we thought but not always how we f e l t about each other. That'8 come s l o w l y , i t ' s fragments.  1.  CR  A  1.  Theme  5  1.  Right now whenever Ease of Communication. he's i n V. we always t a l k to each other every day. Our phone b i l l s are a s t r o n o m i c a l but i n the evening u s u a l l y i f he's home we u s u a l l y d i s c u s s the day's events and what's happening. And t h a t was a conscious t h i n g that we decided b e f o r e he l e f t . That we would do t h i s to keep the l i n e s of communication open because i t ' s very easy to be away a week and. . . .  CR  CR  2  CR  3  CR  A  Theme  5  2.  2.  2.  2.  2.  You know i n one whole phase of my l i f e , which i s about ten years ago I guess, we were g e t t i n g Into something . . . that I d i d n ' t l i k e . . . and I was r e a l l y d i s t r e s s e d and upset about tl.at and we used to t a l k about I t but we never resolved. . . .  But I t h i n k what happens i s that s i n c e you go through these things not s i n g l y , l i k e a l l the questions are only w i t h i n your own s e l f , that you are able to share those things. I think t h a t ' s j u s t something that we've accompl i s h e d . As each external situation happens, s t r e s s f u l or c r i s i s or j u s t decisions g e n e r a l l y — what happened i s that we have been able to make those d e c i s i o n s as a u n i t . I think that's r e a l l y helped.  Since we have been communicating these problems of our romantic f e e l i n g s towards one another I think we have r e a l l y made great leaps i n our marriage.  I t took me awhile to a r t i c u l a t e my f r u s t r a t i o n or to know what was causing my f r u s t r a t i o n and then to t r y t o f i n d a way of expressing my needs without aruging or without g e t t i n g angry and s i l e n t and without j u s t becoming r e s e n t f u l and s i l e n t ; t o show my f r u s t r a t i o n before I get angry. And so i t ' s gotten better.  T h i s Is one of the Self p a r t s that I r e a l l y a p p r e c i a t e about J , i s that he i s very open and he r e a l l y l i k e s to d i s c u s s the i s s u e so that I never have to s t o r e anything o r keep anything Inside. Usually h e ' l l l i s t e n and many times h e ' l l agree or w e ' l l work i t o u t .  2. Disclosure.  CRj 3. That was something I wanted to do, those t h i n g s were Important to me. Looking a f t e r W's comforts, I t ' s s t i l l very Important t o me.  4. The end of the week, F r i d a y n i g h t , I don't care how wiped out I am, F r i d a y n i g h t i s together n i g h t . That's the night when he comes home there'8 something n i c e planned f o r d i n n e r , the house i s n ' t a mess. We s i t and have a d r i n k or go out some p l a c e .  CR  CR  2  CR4  3  CR  Theme  5  3.  3.  3.  3.  3.  . . . have to have a c e r t a i n amount of t o l e r a n c e , otherwise you always end up, l i k e there Is a conflict situation . . . t h a t ' s something we have always t r i e d to avoid because there i s always ways of doing t h i n g s , always ways of doing t h i n g s .  But i t doesn't mean that oh, she's never going to leave me so I'm J u s t going to be a slouch. I think input has to be there.  And i t ' s times l i k e that [ I ] r e a l l y have to s t a r t t a l k i n g to [my] s e l f ; t h i n k of the important t h i n g s , t h i n k of the good things that are coming from [my] r e l a t i o n ship.  I t h i n k we're both of the mind that i f we f e l t that something was r e a l l y wrong with the r e l a t i o n s h i p we'd seek c o u n s e l l i n g . J has mentioned that s e v e r a l times, which p l e a s e s me because he would r e a d i l y go.  Emotional Commitment.  4.  4.  4.  4.  4.  . . . going out, changing the e n v i r o n ment and spending time together, being romantic, going to places that you went to when you were single.  Cause sometimes you both get so busy, each with your own i n t e r e s t s , h i s woodworking and ay c h i l d c a r i n g that you don't g i v e each other enough, I don't know i f i t ' s care or concern. . . . Making the e f f o r t to show love.  The a f f e c t i o n a t e s i d e of our marriage i s d e f i n i t e l y there because we're both very a f f e c t i o n a t e people.  And i t comes (romance), i t sneaks back i n because you begin to r e f l e c t back, you say, what was i t that brought us together and a s o r t of gentleness comes i n , a gentle kind of l o v e .  Intimacy.  CRj  5. We were very compatible i n t h i n g s , i n a l l our i n t e r e s t s , i n the way we'd been brought up, our values . . . our goals and ambitions.  6. I guess those things stand out when I t h i n k about s a t i s f a c t i o n , i t ' s the f r i e n d s h i p f i r s t and then a l s o I t i s r e a l l y fun to have goals.  CR  CR  2  3  CR4  CR  Theme  5  5. She's changed the g r e a t e s t because of my values and I'm sure mine changed as w e l l . There's a number of events i n our l i v e s that helped to change that [C's r e l i g i o n s m a t e r i a l v a l u e s ] . One of them i s that the kind of f r i e n d s that I had l n u n i v e r s i t y were people who began to t r a v e l . As I say we'd changed so much.  5. The f i r s t time we ever t a l k e d about something . . . i t was about v a l u e s . I knew that I wanted to meet her again and I knew that i f I ever met her again I was going to be very s e r i o u s .  5. But the f a c t that he's w i l l i n g to work i s very important to me r i g h t now. Probably always w i l l . Not to be ambitious, not to be money grubbing, j u s t w i l l i n g to work.  5. 5. I t was always, i f you Values Cons ens us. want to do i t , the d e c i s i o n i s yours and I w i l l back i t . I t h i n k t h a t ' s been a r u l e of our marriage. I f you make a d e c i s i o n and you're happy with i t then I w i l l back i t . . . . From the b e g i n n i n g , there was always t h i s . . . c a r e e r s , the d e c i s i o n i s our own with the back-up of the other person.  6. I've thought of doing other f i e l d t r i p courses but I t h i n k i t ' 8 too tough o f t e n w i t h two k i d s . Because I won't do a f i e l d course without t a k i n g everybody. And we are a c t u a l l y working on one next to go to Japan. . . . But a l s o the key element of course i s that C. wants to do t h i s t r i p too.  6. Going to enriched P's l i f e improved  6. [We] both love her so much and are so i n t e r e s t e d i n her w e l l b e i n g that I t h i n k i t makes you t r y harder o f t e n times to get a l o n g .  6. I f there was a major d e c i s i o n to be made I alwaya c o n s u l t e d w i t h him and i t kind of became a p a r t n e r s h i p r a t h e r than he j u s t doing e v e r y t h i n g and me not knowing what's going on.  s c h o o l has my l i f e and and has our marriage.  6. Shared  Goals.  CRj  CR  7.  7.  . . . l i k e I was at home now, I loved i t . I j u s t loved i t . W. was working and that was a - l i k e we thought we'd a r r i v e d , you known, t h i s was what we'd been working f o r , b u i l d i n g a f a m i l y and . . . so I can't remember anything p a r t i c u l a r l y that was n e g a t i v e . I t was j u s t l i k e we were p l a y i n g , house.  She was l y i n g i n bed f o r four months and I'd teach and I'd come home and I'd do everyt h i n g ; and that was r e a l l y tough. But i t was something that we r e a l l y shared through. Out of that hardship i n many ways o f t e n comes a c l o s e r relationship.  8.  8.  He's always been a good p r o v i d e r , always has. I've great respect f o r his a b i l i t y to. . . . he'8 r e a l l y very c l e v e r at t h a t , v e r y .  CR  2  I think i t ' 8 just respect f o r each o t h e r . That's a b a s i c . We've been through so many, had so many experiences that i t ' s j u s t , I t comes down to r e s p e c t . I t h i n k that's the main l i n e .  CR4  3  7.  CR  Theme  5  7.  7.  Having someone [husband] with me at that time who was i n v o l v e d l n the whole t h i n g and was concerned about my p h y s i c a l and emotional w e l l being. I t was a v e r y c l o s e s o r t of f e e l i n g to share t h a t . A time l i k e that makes you f e e l q u i t e c l o s e , l i k e you r e a l l y need somebody. . . . The I088 of the baby was an experience that brought us t o g e t h e r .  I was there j u s t to Couple keep him g o i n g . We used to s i t and t a l k f o r hours and hours. He would t e l l me how much he hated the p l a c e and we'd j u s t work i t through, and work i t through and work i t through and then he's go i n and put l n another day and then that evening we'd do i t a g a i n . . . .  7. Solidarity.  8.  8.  8.  I t h i n k you have to admire your husband or w i f e , I t h i n k that helps to remind ones e l f that one married someone s p e c i a l . Not f o o l i s h admiration but true admiration f o r what the person stands f o r . . . .  The f a c t that he's working and w i l l i n g to work i s something I respect i n him. If he d i d n ' t , i f he d e c i d e d , I'm not going to work, I'm going on w e l f a r e . . . . that would r e a l l y make me angry and i t might even sever the relationship.  His good nature and Respect. j u s t his respect f o r me as a person, that i s something that I r e a l l y l i k e about him. He never, ever puts h i s f i n g e r down s o r t of t h i n g , there's r e a l l y no c o n t r o l . He never t r i e s to c o n t r o l me and I've r e a l l y respected t h a t . I was aware of that r i g h t away and i t ' s s t i l l very much so, i n f a c t more so.  8.  CR  CR  2  CR4  3  CR  Theme  5  9.  9.  9.  9.  9.  He's a very p o s i t i v e t h i n k i n g person and I t h i n k that a l s o i s a tremendous boost as f a r as the s a t i s f a c t i o n t h a t I f e e l out of l i v i n g w i t h somebody l i k e that.  And then we went on and j u s t had more and more good experiences, i n terms of l i k e , we went to A u s t r a l i a , we worked i n New Zealand.  I r e j o i c e i n the North American o u t l o o k . P. brought i n t o my l i f e and the people i n g e n e r a l . I t ' s much more upbeat, much happier.  I put a sense of humour down. I f i n d that a very important t h i n g i n a mate.  I t h i n k that the t h i n g J o i e . d e v i v r e . that r e a l l y attracted me was h i s good naturedness r i g h t a t at the beginning when I f i r s t met him and he was so easy to t a l k t o . . . . Being q u i t e happy and easy to be around people, people j u s t k i n d of l i k e him. . . .  10.  10.  10.  10.  10.  10.  We're two d i f f e r e n t people and each of us l i k e s that part about the other person.  I says, " l i s t e n C , I ' l l t e l l you r i g h t now, when we f i n i s h and I get my degree I'm j u s t going to work and we are going to s p l i t 1" She says, and t h i s i s where she i s the p r a c t i c a l s i d e , . . . " f o r g e t i t ! " We are going to s p l i t , but what money? And of course she i s right.  . . . what I mean about d i f f e r e n t universes g e t t i n g together i s the subtleties i n thinking and the s u b t l e t i e s of the experiences i n c h i l d h o o d . They can d i v i d e or they can e n r i c h too.  He reads a b i t more than I do, the Manchester Guardian, so he's g e t t i n g more i n f o r m a t i o n that I haven't the time to r i g h t now, having a child. I f i n d him a good source of i n f o r m a t i o n . I can ask him q u e s t i o n s about something.  I t ' s very e v i d e n t one always p l a y s the d e v i l ' s advocate i n a n y t h i n g major. In j u s t about anything t h a t ' s of r e l a t i v e Importance one of us always takes that role.  Complementary Differences.  9.  CR  CR  2  11.  11.  We each have s i m i l a r i n t e r e s t s but the other t h i n g s that s t r i k e s me as being important i s that we a l s o have I n t e r e s t s that we don't share with each other. For one I love the t h e a t r e and . . . W doesn't l i k e i t . So I get t i c k e t s and go with somebody e l s e . And there Is no j e a l o u s i e s about that or there i s not f e e l i n g s of g u i l t .  I've taken on more and more t h i n g s . Even t h i s whole p o l i t i c a l t h i n g that I've done up here, I couldn't have done that w i t h out, I mean I d i d n ' t do that without t a l k i n g to C.  11.  CR  3  CR  4  Theme  5  11.  11.  Another t h i n g that g i v e s some s a t i s f a c t i o n . . . i s having over-lapping interests. Liking a l o t of the same people. . . . L i k i n g s i m i l a r forms of l i t e r a t u r e and f i l m s . I t h i n k i t ' s important to have d i f f e r e n t i n t e r e s t s too, to not do e v e r y t h i n g together. That would be more than I would want. And to a l l o w each other to go separate way, to not have to always be with each o t h e r . To t r u s t each o t h e r , I suppose, enough that you can go somewhere f o r a few days and t h a t ' s ok.  That came out t h i s Autonomy/Dependence summer when he got sick. I mean I thought I was a v e r y independent person and I c o u l d r e a l l y handle my l i f e by myself but when he got s i c k I r e a l i z e d t h a t I d i d n ' t , not t h a t I c o u l d n ' t , but I d i d n ' t want t o . And that r e a l l y s t r u c k home aa to j u s t how , dependent we are on each other as w e l l as having t h i s freedom and t h i s independence to do as we want to do.  11.  CR 12. You know we d i v e r g e d , t h a t ' s what i t was. T h a t ' 8 when I s t a r t e d to come back to s c h o o l because I , thought, i t ' s not going to l a s t . Through a l l that we got along f i n e and there wasn't f i g h t s or arguments of that k i n d of disagreements between us. I t was j u s t there's a massive gut f e e l i n g that our l i f e was changing and I wasn't, i t had never occurred to me before not to j u s t go along w i t h whatever happened.  2  12. And I t h i n k i n d i v i d u a l s , or k i d s even, have to a c e r t a i n amount of t o l e r a n c e , otherwise y o u ' l l always end up, l i k e there i s a c o n f l i c t s i t u a t i o n and I t h i n k t h a t ' 8 somet h i n g we have always t r i e d to a v o i d . . . . Because there i s always ways of doing t h i n g s . Always ways of doing t h i n g s .  CR  3  12. I was t h i r t y when I got married and I t h i n k that made a r e a l difference. . . . I don't think I went i n t o marriage b l i n d l y . I knew what I was getting into.  CR4 12. My mother once s a i d to me, " i f you're bored w i t h l i f e i t ' s your own f a u l t , " and on o c c a s i o n I have f e l t r e s t l e s s and wanting something more stimulating. [Thinking that the] e x c i t e ment and the newness of a new r e l a t i o n s h i p [could] g i v e me what I'm m i s s i n g i n l i f e and I r e a l i z e that she's r i g h t , that I should t r y and do something f o r myself and not expect another person to do t h i n g s f o r me. I t has to come from me i f I'm going to be a contented person.  CR  5  Theme  12. 12. The other t h i n g I R e a l i s t i c Outlook on t h i n k with him being Marriage and L i f e . away so much i s you a p p r e c i a t e each other when you're around each o t h e r . We seldom f i g h t because time i s j u s t too s h o r t and t h e r e ' s no p o i n t i n having a b i g blow-up and not t a l k i n g to each o t h e r f o r a week o r so because when he's only home f o r n i n e days you make the best of i t . It's not an a r t i f i c i a l s i t u a t i o n though. You make the best of the situation.  CRj  CR  2  CR  3  CR  4  CR  5  Theme  13. 13. I decided to frame i t for myself. That was my j o b , to me that was, and I was good at i t . You know, I'm proud of my house and proud of my f a m i l y and that was the c o n t r i b u t i o n s I was making; was a homemaker.  13. I was t h i r t y when I got married and I t h i n k that made a r e a l difference. . . . I don't t h i n k I went i n t o marriage b l i n d l y . I knew what I was getting into.  13. Ever s i n c e then i f I get r e s t l e s s I u s u a l l y j u s t wait I t out 'cause I u s u a l l y pass through these l i t t l e phases and come out the other s i d e . I t Is something I know about myself; perhaps i t happens to everybody, I don't know. But I guess with experience i t s one of those t h i n g s I've l e a r n ' t about m y s e l f . . . .  13. 13. We [ a r e ] r e a l l y v e r y Strong Personal c o n s c i o u s of each Identity. o t h e r ' s f e e l i n g s and t h i n g s and y e t , as I say, when we're separated we l i v e v e r y f u l l l i v e s away from each other t o o .  14. He was very s u p p o r t i v e . Very s u p p o r t i v e . (About CR r e t u r n i n g to s c h o o l ) . And t h a t ' s t y p i c a l f o r both of us.  14. I asked her and she s a i d she'd never leave me. W e l l , you know people can change t h e i r minds. But I'm q u i t e c o n f i d e n t that I can say that I can't see us ever l e a v i n g each o t h e r .  14. Having someone [husband] w i t h me a t that time who was i n v o l v e d l n the whole t h i n g and was concerned about my p h y s i c a l , emotional w e l l b e i n g . I t was a very c l o s e s o r t of f e e l i n g t o share t h a t . A time l i k e that makes you f e l l quite close, l i k e you r e a l l y need somebody . . . the l o s s of the baby was an experience that brought us together.  14. 14. You know a l o t of Emotional S e c u r i t y / people have pentioned Support. to me when they see me by myself, when he's away, a l o t of people say, "Oh, I c o u l d never do i t , " o r "you seem so happy when you're on your own," or whatever the comments a r e . I guess because I f e e l secure w i t h what I have I don't have to worry about being by m y s e l f .  14. You look to one another, e x a c t l y . And i t ' s the same, l i k e even the way I am r i g h t now. I've taken on more and more t h i n g s . Even t h i s whole p o l i t i a l t h i n g that I've done up here. I couldn't have done that without C.  CRj 15. I decided to frame i t f o r myself. That was my j o b and I was good at i t . I'm proud of my house and I'm proud of my f a m i l y and that was the c o n t r i b u t i o n I was making, was a homemaker.  CR  2  15. What has happened i s that the r e l a t i o n s h i p between C. and myself has grown now i n t o a r e l a t i o n s h i p between the four of us.  CR  3  15. I don't think we are very r o l e c o n s c i o u s . I help with the house, I do the cooking, or the dishes or the vacuuming. U s u a l l y I do the more heavy work. . . . We have preferences. If I cook, she does the dishes . . .  CR  4  15. I can be B's mother and do the gardening and whatever. And he l i k e s h i s work. I t ' s l i k e we a l l have f a i r l y set r o l e s r i g h t now which I t h i n k i s good f o r a person i f you l i k e what your role i s . I think i t i s important to have that k i n d o f , you s t a b i l i t y , that's a good word.  CR  5  Theme  15. 15. I t h i n k 75% of the E x i s t e n t i a l Couple Identity. couples are d i v o r c e d [at husband'8 work p l a c e ] and I f e e l that we've r e a l l y turned i t around. That has become a r e a l p o s i t i v e t h i n g i n our marriage and we've r e a l l y made i t work.  - 109 -  APPENDIX A  SUBJECT CONSENT FORM T i t l e of Project:  A Phenomenological I n v e s t i g a t i o n I n t o the Experience of M a r i t a l S a t i s f a c t i o n  Principal Investigator:  P e t e r Cawsey  I am d o i n g a m a s t e r ' s s t u d y t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e e x p e r i e n c e and meaning o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . I w i l l be a s k i n g you t o d e s c r i b e i n d e t a i l your experience of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . There w i l l be two t o t h r e e i n t e r v i e w s each l a s t i n g one t o two hours f o r a maximum time o f s i x h o u r s . Each i n t e r v i e w w i l l be t a p e - r e c o r d e d and t r a n s c r i b e d . The i n f o r m a t i o n y o u g i v e t o me w i l l be s t r i c t l y c o n f i d e n t i a l . C o n f i d e n t i a l l y w i l l be m a i n t a i n e d by d e l e t i n g any p e r s o n a l r e f e r e n c e , n o t u s i n g t h e s i r name o f anyone you may m e n t i o n and o n l y u s i n g t h e f i r s t i n i t i a l o f y o u r f i r s t name i n t h e t r a n s c r i p t . Once t h e r e s e a r c h i s c o n c l u d e d , t h e taped i n t e r v i e w s w i l l be e r a s e d . I f you have any q u e s t i o n s about t h e r e s e a r c h and how I p l a n t o use the i n f o r m a t i o n I w i l l be more than p l e a s e d t o e x p l a i n i t t o you as f u l l y as p o s s i b l e . When t h e p r o j e c t i s completed I w i l l s h a r e t h e r e s u l t s w i t h you i f you a r e i n t e r e s t e d . Your p a r t i c i p a t i o n i s v o l u n t a r y . You have t h e r i g h t t o r e f u s e t o answer any q u e s t i o n o r t o w i t h d r a w f r o m t h e s t u d y a t any t i m e . I HAVE READ AND UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE AND CONSENT TO BE A SUBJECT IN THIS RESEARCH.  Name o f S u b j e c t : Signature  of Subject:  Date: Researcher:  P e t e r Cawsey  - 110  -  THE  UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA FACULTY OF EDUCATION DEPARTMENT OF COUNSELLING PSYCHOLOGY 5780 TORONTO ROAD VANCOUVER, B.C. V6T 1L2  Dear I am a master's s t u d e n t i n t h e Department of C o u n s e l l i n g P s y c h o l o g y at the U n i v e r s i t y of B r i t i s h C o l u m b i a . As p a r t of my degree r e q u i r e m e n t s I must complete a m a s t e r ' s t h e s i s . I am w r i t i n g t o r e q u e s t y o u r a s s i s t a n c e i n my r e s e a r c h . I am s t u d y i n g m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n by a s k i n g p e o p l e t o t e l l me the s t o r y of s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e i r m a r r i a g e . That i s , what i t means t o them, how t h e y have a c h i e v e d i t and how t h e y m a i n t a i n i t . I w i l l be a s k i n g you t o s h a r e some of y o u r t h o u g h t s , f e e l i n g s and a c t i o n s connected to t h i s e x p e r i e n c e . By p a r t i c i p a t i n g I n t h i s r e s e a r c h you w i l l have the o p p o r t u n i t y to l e a r n more about m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n and p r o v i d e i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h w i l l be h e l p f u l t o c o u n s e l l o r s and o t h e r s w o r k i n g w i t h p e o p l e and t h e i r marital relationships. The i n t e r v i e w s (2-3) w i l l maximum time of 6 h o u r s . They You, of c o u r s e , have the r i g h t w i t h d r a w from t h e s t u d y a t any  be a p p r o x i m a t e l y 1-2 hours each f o r a w i l l be t a p e - r e c o r d e d and t r a n s c r i b e d . t o r e f u s e t o answer any q u e s t i o n s o r t o time.  I w i l l be c o n t a c t i n g you by phone t o see whether you a r e i n t e r e s t e d i n p a r t i c i p a t i n g i n t h i s r e s e a r c h . I f you a r e , I w i l l a r r a n g e t o meet w i t h you t o answer any q u e s t i o n s and t o d e s c r i b e the s t u d y i n more detail. Yours  sincerely,  P e t e r Cawsey  -  Ill  -  APPENDIX B  INTERVIEW #1 I:  P l e a s e r e f l e c t on y o u r m a r r i a g e and t h e n t e l l me t h e s t o r y of y o u r e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . You may want t o g i v e me an o u t l i n e of the s a t i s f a c t i o n i n your marriage from the beginning u n t i l now o r you might l i k e t o d e s c r i b e v i g n e t t e s o f e x p e r i e n c e t h a t t y p i f y t h e s a t i s f a c t i o n you f e e l .  CR:  I t ' s an immense t a s k . I ' v e been m a r r i e d 1961 so we're t a l k i n g about 23 y e a r s .  I:  W e l l t h a t might t a k e us a few t o o many h o u r s ( l a u g h t e r ) .  CR:  So I g u e s s , um, I mean b a s i c a l l y I've g o t t o s t a r t r i g h t a t t h e very beginning. I knew my husband v e r y w e l l b e f o r e we were married. We'd know each o t h e r f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s , t h r e e o r f o u r y e a r s and had been s e e i n g each o t h e r f r e q u e n t l y d u r i n g t h a t t i m e . Had gone around t o g e t h e r o r what e v e r t e r m you use now. I l i k e d him a l o t . You know we had a l o t o f s t u f f t h a t was a h , we were v e r y c o m p a t i b l e i n t h i n g s , i n a l l o u r i n t e r e s t s , i n t h e way we'd been brought up, o u r v a l u e s , you know we b o t h k i n d o f v a l u e d t h e same t h i n g s and, a g a i n what we l i k e d t o do s p o r t s w i s e , o u r g o a l s and a m b i t i o n s . I mean we n e v e r t a l k e d about t h e s e a t g r e a t l e n g t h s but t h e r e was, when we d i d we knew t h a t we were b o t h g o a l d i r e c t e d p e o p l e and we b o t h l i k e d a l o t o f f u n t i m e and we l i k e d t h e s i m i l a r t h i n g s i n t h a t s e n s e . So r i g h t f r o m t h e s t a r t I guess W. was more of a f r i e n d .  I:  D i d you c o n s i d e r  CR:  No, I s e p a r a t e t h a t now, b u t he was a good f r i e n d b e f o r e he was a l o v e r . So t h a t t o me was a n i c e f o u n d a t i o n . I don't know how t h a t works f o r o t h e r p e o p l e . Had we m a r r i e d o r n o t m a r r i e d we would have s t i l l been always f r i e n d s 'cause t h e r e was t h a t c o m p a t i b i l i t y and l i k e f o r each o t h e r and r e s p e c t f o r each o t h e r . So t h a t ' s k i n d of t h e f i r s t b u i l d i n g b r i c k t h a t I can t h i n k o f . The o t h e r t h i n g i s t h a t we were a l w a y s , l i k e two d i f f e r e n t p e o p l e and each o f u s , l i k e d t h a t p a r t about t h e o t h e r p e r s o n t h a t we d i d n ' t have t o h o l d hands a l l t h e t i m e o r do e x a c t l y t h e same t h i n g s a l l t h e t i m e . I have s e v e r a l d i f f e r e n t i n t e r e s t s t h a t he doesn't have and he has some t h a t I d o n ' t and t h a t was always ok.  I:  R i g h t from the beginning  CR:  I t was a b s o l u t e l y ok a t t h e b e g i n n i n g . There were times when i t wasn't ok and t h a t was, you know, p r o b a b l y when I was a t home w i t h k i d s and I f e l t some s t u f f about t h a t . That I was s t u c k and he w a s n ' t . So a t t h a t t i m e i t wasn't as ok but i t d i d n ' t g e t i n t h e way v e r y much. And you know i t ' s l i k e a l i t t l e m i n i r o l l e r c o a s t e r but t h a t i s one o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I l i k e d o r i g i n a l l y and I a b s o l u t e l y l o v e i t now. But d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e of o u r t w e n t y - t h r e e years that's v a r i e d .  f o r a h , I was m a r r i e d i n  t h a t , d i d you t r y t o s e p a r a t e  . . .  t h a t was t h e case?  112  -  I:  When did you have your f i r s t married?  c h i l d and how many years had you been  CR:  We'd been married four and half years and that also was planned, that we wouldn't have children r i g h t away. We, I mentioned been goal d i r e c t e d , you know, we talked about getting married and we planned getting married. We both l i v e d at home, i n our own homes but we also spent a l o t of time together. We had a s k i cabin together and we had our holidays together and things l i k e that. With and without family. In other word we didn't l i v e together i n the words of today, l i v i n g together, but we knew a l o t about how the other partner was during the whole course of the day. You had asked me something s p e c i f i c and I was going a f t e r i t and I've forget what i t was.  I:  I'd asked you about kids, how o l d you were when you had children?  CR:  Oh ya, so anyway, before we were married we decided that we didn't want to l i v e i n an apartment that we'd l i k e to have a house and so we both made a bank loan and we bought a house and rented i t f o r six months i n the time that we were getting married, you know, getting ready to be married. And then we moved into that and we plan . . . gee i t sounds s t e r i l e , completely organized . . . we planned that we'd both work and pay o f f that loan and we were r e a l l y s e l f i s h i n those days, or no, i t ' s not s e l f i s h i t was r e a l l y fun l o v i n g . We were away every weekend either s k i i n g or s a i l i n g and didn't want kids or anything and then eventually we d i d . We talked about that before we were married too and my husband wanted four children and had said that before we were married. I don't know why f o u r . We talked about that a b i t . He said, well he was from a family of three and I was from a family of two and we didn't want one and I thought three would be great and he thought three was not so good, i t should be two or four and we'd go through these kind of things. You know we said as twenty year olds, well, we'11 have four kids and sure enough we ended up with four k i d s .  I:  Is that how old you were when you got married, you were twenty-one?  CR:  I was twenty-one.  I:  And he was?  CR:  He was, he's four years older than I am, twenty-five. (8 seconds s i l e n c e ) So that, I mean, I guess those things stand out when I think about s a t i s f a c t i o n . I t ' s friendship f i r s t and then also i t was r e a l l y fun to have goals, I mean I can't, besides going into minute d e t a i l , that was a l o t of togetherness f o r us. Something we set up was every anniversary we would review our l a s t year. Where we started, you know, with bank loan and mortgage debt or whatever and what we had accomplished and part of that, growing i n s t a b i l i t y was - we kept patting ourselves on the back, those were good times.  -  113  -  I:  Sure.  CR:  Those were r e a l l y good times and I , we made use of them.  I:  When you reviewed your marriage at each anniversary the concrete kind of f i n a n c i a l things?  CR:  That was a review of our p o s i t i o n .  I:  Did you look at the r e l a t i o n s h i p too or was that r e a l l y part o f — i t was j u s t going f i n e and so i t f e l t good.  CR:  We didn't look at the r e l a t i o n s h i p . Ya, I guess the second, i t was just going ok and the other thing, i f something i s n ' t going ok we t a l k about i t . We don't always get i t solved but i t ' s not harboured, ah, as a general pattern i t ' s not harboured, so that f e e l s good.  I:  And i t ' s been that way from the beginning you f e e l .  CR:  It's been, i t ' s always been that way even before we were married. Now that's not, I mean that paints a pretty i d e a l picture and that's not true because we've had our rocky up and downs and a l l the rest of i t , but i t ' s not because there's been some known that hasn't been discussed. You know i n one whole phase of my l i f e , which i s j u s t about ten years ago I guess, we were getting i n t o something business wise that s p i l l e d over into time wise and to a d i r e c t i o n that I didn't l i k e to go and I was r e a l l y distressed and upset about that and we used to t a l k about i t but we never resolved any . . . you know, we were s t i l l getting c a r r i e d down that road. That confused me, I couldn't put my f i n g e r on what i t was that was going on.  I:  So there was change taking place that you didn't f e e l comfortable with but W. was more into i t .  CR:  Well he was into i t , emotionally he was into i t . It was the music business. We got into the music business and we got into i t i n a big way. I t demanded time and money and a whole l o t of energy and i t was not s t a b l e . It was kind of not what I was used t o .  I:  Oh, you mean f i n a n c i a l l y I t was a l i t t l e b i t of a, i t was a r i s k .  CR:  Ya, and the people that were working for us weren't stable. You know, they were not, I didn't think they were competent. They were into that whole g l i t t e r and p l a s t i c drug scene which i s the music scene and that was so foreign to me that I had, I mean i t was coming up i n my stomach, i t wasn't coming up i n my head. I couldn't analyze what the problem was 'cause we were getting very r i c h at that time too. I mean that was a b i g c r i s i s i n our l i v e s and i t was what, i t was kind of one of those s i l e n t c r i s i s . I could f e e l us going farther apart. Then we'd talk about i t but also our f e e l i n g s about i t were d i f f e r e n t . W. saw i t as a real opportunity and I saw i t as something that was getting i n the way.  you looked at  really  - 114 -  I:  So i t became a bit of a values clash in a way, I mean just a minor sort of thing, is that right or is that taking i t too far?  CR: Ya, i t ' s taking i t too far because we never got dragged into the drug scene or anything like that. I mean he was on the business end dealing with the banks and on the business level where he's very capable there. It meant living in L.A. for two weeks out of every four. I:  Both of you?  CR:  No. No. That could have been but I wasn't willing to do that. We had four children and they were a l l kind of ten, eight to twelve some where in there. I mean there's just so much that goes with that l i f e style change, that kind of things that we didn't ever implement i n our house. You know we never kind of changed but i t was very uncomfortable.  I:  So you say you guys talked about i t but how did you sort of resolve it? That was something that you had to work at, I wonder i f i t just fizzled. . . .  CR:  It didn't, we didn't resolve that Peter, we probably would have drifted apart over that had i t gone on. The music business went bankrupt. I look at that as a blessing because i t actually saved our marriage. We're s t i l l digging our way out of that financially but i t wasn't something that's easy to turn off. I mean there's investment, there were partners involved, i t was, you know we were off on a different l i f e . And had i t kept going W. would have been out of his normal business, the paint business, and we would have gone totally into the music business. We would have moved to L.A. and we would have been going to music conventions and tried to jive with people that are spaced out looking i n the corner for spiders.  I:  So i t would have been a totally different l i f e style.  CR:  So that was, you know i t was something that we talk about. We talked about i t then and we talk about i t now but during the time that i t was happening we weren't working on a resolution.  I:  It was going ahead and i t was sort of, i t was pretty hard to cut i t off, I guess i t was something that was happening.  CR: Ya, that's right and as a matter of fact there wasn't the willingness to cut i t off. You know we diverged, that's what i t was. That's when I started to come back to school because I thought, i t ' s not going to last. Through a l l that we got along fine and there wasn't fights or arguments or that kind of disagreement between us. There was a massive gut feeling that our l i f e was changing and I wasn't, i t had  - 115 never occurred happened.  to me  before  not  t o j u s t go a l o n g w i t h whatever  I:  So i t was a r e a l change, a d e f i n i t e c h a n g i n g p o i n t i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p i n how you d e a l t w i t h t h i n g s . U s u a l l y t h i n g s were m u t u a l and you b o t h f e l t ...  CR:  Ya, and i t was the u l t i m a t e of g o i n g y o u r own way, i n a way, you know, because i t was g o i n g to be, w e l l i t was a l i f e s t y l e change f o r us. H a v i n g somebody l i v e two weeks at home and two weeks i n L.A. You know, change f r o m b u s i n e s s s u i t s to j e a n s and l e a t h e r . Those are the t h i n g s t h a t I saw h a p p e n i n g . The t h i n g s t h a t were most i m p o r t a n t to me a c t u a l l y d i d n ' t change; the p a r e n t i n g , the t i m e w i t h the k i d s and our t i m e t o g e t h e r w i t h our f r i e n d s and t h o s e k i n d s of t h i n g s were s t i l l i n t a c t . I t was p r o b a b l y . . . (few seconds s i l e n c e )  I:  You s a i d t h a t you came back to s c h o o l , you t h o u g h t , you f e l t t h i n g s m i g h t come a p a r t . D i d you mean the b u s i n e s s o r the r e l a t i o n s h i p ?  CR:  The r e l a . . . w e l l (pause) t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p I c o u l d see c h a n g i n g . You know I n e v e r , ah, I never c a r r i e d i t to the f a c t t h a t we m i g h t not l i v e t o g e t h e r or d i v o r c e . I n e v e r thought about t h a t because we a c t u a l l y don't f i g h t , so t h o s e t h i n g s a r e n ' t a s , but t h e r e was d e f i n i t e l y a d r i f i t i n g apart. T i m e - w i s e , I mean t h a t was an a l l consuming t h i n g . He was r u n n i n g , W. was r u n n i n g two b u s i n e s s e s a t the t i m e , two b i g b u s i n e s s e s . One i n t e r n a t i o n a l , t h e r e j u s t i s n ' t j u s t much time l e f t o v e r .  I:  You j u s t mentioned t h a t you don't f i g h t . of d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s to d i f f e r e n t p e o p l e . d i s a g r e e m e n t s and t h a t s o r t of t h i n g ?  CR:  We t a l k about them. I mean, I r e a l l y , I've always h e s i t a t e d , p a r t i c u l a r l y s i n c e I've been i n t h i s program, to say t h a t . I d o n ' t t h i n k I've e v e r s a i d t h a t t o anybody, but we don't f i g h t . People s a y , oh t h a t must be p r e t t y f l a t k i n d of a t h i n g . I can remember the times t h a t we've, you know maybe t h r e e times i n t w e n t y - t h r e e y e a r s have we r e a l l y f o u g h t . I t h i n k b o t h of us are a b l e to say, you know, I'm p i s s e d - o f f about s o m e t h i n g and we b e t t e r , you know, l e t ' s get t o g e t h e r and t a l k about i t . And i n d o i n g t h a t you can come to a r e s o l u t i o n t h a t ' s s a t i s f a c t o r y t o both? I t may i n v o l v e a l i t t l e b i t of compromise and t h a t s o r t of t h i n g .  I:  CR:  I guess t h a t means a l o t How do you d e a l w i t h  I don't know about the r e s o l u t i o n t h a t ' s s a t i s f a c t o r y to b o t h , but boy, I know I'm heard and I l i s t e n to him. U s u a l l y i f you do t h a t you can k i n d of see what the o t h e r p e r s o n i s t h i n k i n g a b o u t . I t m i g h t n o t , you know, I m i g h t s t i l l want to do A and he might s t i l l want t o do B or whatever i t i s t h a t we're, but a n y t h i n g t h a t i n v o l v e s us b o t h we'd c e r t a i n l y get t o g e t h e r on. You know i t comes up w i t h c h i l d r e a r i n g , i t comes up w i t h a l l k i n d s of t h i n g s .  - 116  -  I:  Can you t e l l me a l i t t l e about having four kids and I guess relatively close together, as you say sort of eight to twelve their span of ages were.  CR:  Well actually Chris was not five when our fourth was born, so they're a l l very close.  I:  So during that time certainly roles weren't the same as they are now, there weren't the expectations on men and women, I guess. But how did you deal with that part of i t then. Did you find, you said that in that point of your l i f e you felt the feelings a women feels when she's at home alone and the mate is off doing a thing on their own. How did you feel about that stuff?  CR:  I wasn't a modern day woman to start with. I wanted to have children. I looked forward to the time when we would have children. I was not at that point a career person. I had a good job in an accounting department but i t was not, you know i f I ever thought that we couldn't have children I would have gone and trained for a different kind of job. So i t was kind of one of those good paying jobs that is boring. So I looked forward to having children. The things that bothered me being stuck weren't career oriented things. Like I didn't feel like I was missing out on a whole bunch of stuff. It was more just I've got to get out of here for a while. I've got to go talk to some real people, that kind of stuff. I would look after that myself. I had, you know, g i r l friends and we would share babysitting and I had a woman that would come in once a week and I would have that day off to go and play tennis, or read in the park or v i s i t or have lunch with somebody or anything. It wasn't at a l l career oriented, i t was more time for me. And the other thing was that we had, like we weren't broke in those days. We didn't get married and have kids right away. I was able to have somebody come in and have some f l e x i b i l i t y so the stuck part is got more to do with just time out for adult company than anything, you know, my career's f a l l i n g behind kind of gripe. And that's when I started to teach sewing. I was a sewing teacher and my friend was also a sewing teacher. She had children, I had children, and we'd look after each other's kids while the other one had their day of work. You know, when they grow a bit older and a couple of them in school, that was the kind of thing that I did.  I:  How did W., how did that work with your relationship with him? Was i t pretty much something you did and he was busy supporting the family working and so you worked that out and i t was fine with him, no conflicts, i t just worked out.  CR:  That's right. It was a very traditional, we s t i l l have a very traditional type of marriage in that way. In things that I do around the house and what he does around the house. Traditional or whatever, I don't know. Non-traditional now-a-days. None of the household chores are his, absolutely none, not even the lawn, the  - 117 d i s h e s , t h e c o o k i n g , a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t . Now, t h a t ' s d i f f e r e n t , I don't count on him f o r any o f t h a t . But t h a t ' s d i f f e r e n t than a h , somebody t h a t won't do i t . So I'm t h e o p e r a t o r of t h e house and I can s a y , you know, t h e lawn needs t o be c u t and somebody w i l l go out and c u t the lawn. Somebody w i l l f i g u r e o u t , i t c o u l d be W., i t c o u l d be one o f t h e k i d s . The k i d s do t h e d i s h e s and s t u f f so t h e r e ' s n o t h i n g l i k e t h a t . I f we're a l l g o i n g t o have a Sunday morning b r e a k f a s t t o g e t h e r and t h e t a b l e needs t o be s e t , t h e c o f f e e needs t o be put o n , t h e l a u n d r y needs t o be put i n , t h e n anybody does t h a t . I f somebody's d o i n g one t h i n g t h e n I can d i r e c t t h a t o r i t j u s t happens i t doesn't m a t t e r which i t i s . There a r e n ' t e x a c t l y g i r l j o b s and boy j o b s b u t t h e r e c e r t a i n l y i s , l i k e I'm t h e domo, n o t h i n g would happen, I d o n ' t t h i n k . I:  So i f t h e r e i s a b l o c k , something's not h a p p e n i n g , y o u ' r e t h e one t h a t w i l l suggest t h a t , t a k e t h e r o l e o f o r g a n i z i n g , as t h a t ' s y o u r role.  CR:  That's r i g h t . I l o o k a t i t as b e i n g d i r e c t o r , (laughter) Sometimes i t needs a l o t of d i r e c t i o n , sometimes i t doesn't need any. But f o r s u r e t h e onus i s not on W. t o do any of the housework and t h a t ' s , you know, I don't d i s a g r e e w i t h t h a t . Times a r e c h a n g i n g now. When I s t a r t e d back a t s c h o o l , p a r t i c u l a r l y f i r s t time i n t h e M a s t e r ' s program, I had a fam., w e l l I guess you'd c a l l i t a f a m i l y m e e t i n g , and I , you know, one n i g h t when we were a l l t o g e t h e r I s a i d , "hey, I want t o t a l k t o everybody about what I'm d o i n g and what my time i s and I'm g o i n g t o need some h e l p h e r e and I'm wondering how i t i s t h a t y o u guys c a n h e l p me." So we t a l k e d about i t q u i t e a b i t and t h e k i d s came up w i t h t h e i d e a t h a t they c o u l d do a l l t h e i r own l a u n d r y by now because t h e y were d o i n g i t p a r t l y anyway. So I s a i d t h a t would be g r e a t and I ' d g e t everybody t h e i r own l a u n d r y b a s k e t and t e a c h them how t o r u n the washer and d r y e r , and t o me t h a t took hours o u t . Not o n l y g e t t i n g i t down t h e r e b u t d o i n g i t and s o r t i n g i t and g e t t i n g i t back up, a l l t h a t v a n i s h e d j u s t from one l i t t l e m e e t i n g and b u y i n g f o u r b a s k e t s t h a t t h e y c o u l d c a r r y t h e i r s t u f f up and down i n .  I:  Then t h a t was, W. a l s o d i d t h a t .  CR:  No, No, I s t i l l l o o k a f t e r W.'s, a l l W.'s s t u f f . Not any of h i s , b u y i n g h i s s t u f f o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t , b u t a l l h i s l a u n d r y and things l i k e t h a t .  I:  So i n your r o l e s , they sound l i k e t h e y ' r e f a i r l y w e l l d e f i n e d and you both must a c c e p t them. I t works so i t ' s good f o r you g u y s . Was t h i s j u s t something t h a t k i n d o f happened, e v o l v e d over t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p o r , b e s i d e s t h e time t h a t you s a t down w i t h the whole f a m i l y when you wanted t o go back t o s c h o o l , was t h e r e v e r y c o n s c i o u s d e c i s i o n s about ok, these a r e your j o b s and these a r e my j o b s . Or were they something t h a t came about more n a t u r a l l y ?  -  118  -  CR:  I t h i n k t h e y came about more n a t u r a l l y . And i n t r u t h I'm from a t r a d i t i o n a l f a m i l y . When we b o t h worked at the b e g i n n i n g , t h o s e f o u r y e a r s we b o t h worked, t h e r e ' s j u s t the two of u s , we d i d do s t u f f together then.  I:  You mean h o u s e h o l d s o r t of  CR:  Ya, I mean we c l e a n e d on S a t u r d a y morning or d i d n ' t and you know we'd b o t h get d i n n e r ready and b o t h c l e a n up. I c a n ' t remember, I mean I know I would have been p i s s e d - o f f i f i t had worked out t h a t I had a husband t h a t dug i n about s o m e t h i n g . So t h a t was n e v e r t h e r e , I don't e v e r remember t h a t n o n - w i l l i n g n e s s to do s o m e t h i n g b e i n g t h e r e . You know the guy t h a t goes and s i t s w i t h the paper and won't l o o k up f o r f e a r he's g o i n g t o have to do s o m e t h i n g . I would say i t was e v o l v e d j u s t out of ah, (10 seconds p o n d e r i n g ) how we were brought and s t u f f l i k e t h a t . And I p r o b a b l y do a way more t h a n a woman i s w i l l i n g to do today t h a t i s b r o u g h t up under some d i f f e r e n t circumstances. I don't t h i n k about the t h i n g s I do.  I:  They're the t h i n g s you want t o do, y o u r r o l e i s s o m e t h i n g you're s a t i s f i e d w i t h .  CR:  Y a , p a r t of the time when I r e a l l y s t a r t e d to t h i n k about i t I d e c i d e d t o frame i t f o r m y s e l f , t h a t t h a t was my j o b . To me t h a t was, and I was good a t i t . You know, I'm proud of my house and proud of my f a m i l y and I was, t h a t was the c o n t r i b u t i o n I was m a k i n g , was a home-maker. And I d i d n ' t work f o r a g e s , so I a c c e p t that.  I:  I t sounds l i k e you, y o u ' r e sense of who you were, your i d e n t i t y , you made a commitment t o a p a r t i c u l a r r o l e and t h a t ' s because you maybe had a s t r o n g sense of who you were, a s t r o n g i d e n t i t y , i s t h a t not . . .  CR:  I don't know about t h a t P e t e r , maybe, you know the words t h a t go w i t h i t are f u n n y . L i k e a s t r o n g sense of r o l e , I never thought of i t as a r o l e .  I:  Ya, i t was  CR:  Ya, t h a t was what I wanted to do, t h o s e t h i n g s were i m p o r t a n t to me. L o o k i n g a f t e r W.'s c o m f o r t s , i t ' s v e r y i m p o r t a n t to me s t i l l . The end of the week, you know, F r i d a y n i g h t , I don't c a r e how wiped out I am, F r i d a y n i g h t i s t o g e t h e r n i g h t and t h a t ' s the n i g h t when he comes home t h a t t h e r e ' s s o m e t h i n g n i c e p l a n n e d f o r d i n n e r , the house i s n ' t i n a mess, t h a t ' s p a r t l y because I c o u l d n ' t s t a n d i t , not because he'd be so i m p r e s s e d . We s i t and have a d r i n k , o r go out some p l a c e and i t doesn't m a t t e r i f I'm w i p e d , t h a t s t i l l happens. Now t h a t ' s not 'cause I'm, I don't know why t h a t i s , i t ' s j u s t 'cause t h a t ' s what I l i k e t o o .  j u s t the way  stuff.  that  . . .  - 119 I:  So you're doing i t for yourself also.  CR:  Ya, and I guess that would be looked at as a role. I don't know what roles are, so much. It's kind of l i k e I like i t and he likes i t and I know that i t s going to be good i f we both like i t .  I:  You've told me a l i t t l e bit about your pre-marriage time and how you started off, you f e l t , just a friendship sort of thing. I guess because the dating thing started f a i r l y casually. You lived, did you live in the same neighbourhood, same school, the whole b i t .  CR:  No, he lived in L. and I lived i n K. I started going around with his brother and ah, not going around, you know, dating his brother. And then I met him and started dating him. It was a friendship kind of thing. We had some mutual friends.  I:  And you talked ahout how you discussed things and you both felt that you had similarities, similar interests, and that things were relatively well planned out. You seemed to know really what you wanted and went for i t . It was happening naturally anyway but i t occurred for you because you also, sounds like you worked at making it . . .  CR:  Ya. Just going back a b i t . We each had similar interests but the other thing that strikes me as important i s that we also had interests that we didn't share with each other. And that was ok. I guess I hear that i n counselling now that that's not ok with some people. You know, i f somebody has a different interest i t gets i n the way of the other person. And I don't remember that ever being a big part of our . . .  I:  Can you t e l l me what that i s . Two things that you might have interest in that you didn't share.  CR: Well, for one I love the theatre and ah, you know, we do that together sometimes but not like, I like a l l kinds of drama things and W. doesn't like that. If he wants theatre he wants comedy or something like that. So I get tickets and go with somebody else. And that's ok with him and that's sure ok with me because, you know, I like to be with somebody that is keen about something and isn't not enjoying themself oyer something. So i t ' s not something that I've had to give up because of that. W. likes racing and I'm not a competition. . . I:  Horse racing?  CR: Well, he likes boat racing, he likes ski racing, he likes any kind of racing. And he's a good competitor, he's very competitive, and I'm not competitive at a l l . So I don't partake i n the type of racing that he does, I would partake in a regatta racing and have some fun, you know, i f i t ' s a kind of a fun thing. He's i n a high level competition with our boat. So that's his thing and to me  -  120  -  i t ' 8 super f o r t h e f a m i l y 'cause the k i d s have a l l been i n t e r e s t e d i n t h a t t o o and so t h a t ' s ok w i t h me. I t t a k e s a l o t of time and a l o t of i n t e r e s t . I:  And so you m i g h t s h a r e about i t o r t a l k about i t on j u s t t h e v e r b a l l e v e l s o r t o f s a y what i t was l i k e and how i t was f o r them.  CR:  Oh a b s o l u t e l y , I'm i n t e r e s t e d i n i t b u t I'm not i n t e r e s t e d i n d o i n g it. So t h o s e a r e two examples.  I:  Carry  CR:  That k i n d o f t h i n g . F o r i n s t a n c e I ' l l go away t o t h e Oregon Shakespear F e s t i v a l w i t h a f r i e n d and t h a t ' s ok, i t ' s n o t s o m e t h i n g I have t o w o r r y o r t h i n k a b o u t , w i l l t h a t be ok w i t h h i m .  I:  I t has been t r a d i t i o n a l l y and so i t ' s j u s t ok.  CR:  Ya r i g h t . And t h e r e i s no j e a l o u s i e s about t h a t o r t h e r e ' s not f e e l i n g o f g u i l t , you know t h a t he s h o u l d come, from him o r a n y t h i n g , t h a t ' s j u s t . . . t h a t ' s an easy t h i n g f o r us t o work with.  I:  And t h e n you s p e n t t h e p e r i o d o f t i m e , f o u r y e a r s o r s o , w i t h o u t any c h i l d r e n where you had f u n and I guess got t o know each o t h e r even f u r t h e r , i s t h e r e a n y t h i n g p a r t i c u l a r about t h a t time t h a t y o u can t h i n k t h a t . . . you s a i d t h a t t h e y were r e a l l y good y e a r s , they were r e a l l y happy t i m e s because you were h a v i n g a good t i m e , p l a y i n g a l o t I guess.  CR:  W e l l we l i v e d from Monday t o F r i d a y and j u s t got r i d o f t h a t and t h e n f r o m F r i d a y n i g h t t o Sunday n i g h t we'd be w i t h a l l o u r f r i e n d s e i t h e r s k i i n g o r s a i l i n g o r camping o r s o m e t h i n g .  I:  We t a l k about companions, you were companions a l s o , you spent t i m e t o g e t h e r on weekends.  CR:  Y a , t h e n more t h a n  I:  And then when t h e c h i l d a r r i v e d , how was t h a t f o r b o t h of you and y o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p . Can you remember a n y t h i n g s p e c i f i c a l o n g t h a t •  CR:  i t t h r o u g h the m a r r i a g e p r e t t y w e l l .  ever.  • •  I t was s c a r y . What do we do w i t h t h i s , ( l a u g h t e r ) I t ' s funny, a f r i e n d o f ours j u s t had a baby the o t h e r day, a f t e r f o u r y e a r s of m a r r i a g e and I saw i t and i t was so t i n y and she was g o i n g t h r o u g h a l l t h e same t h i n g s , you know you g e t so e x c i t e d t o have i t . You've g o t t h i s t h i n g and s a y what t h e h e l l , ( l a u g h t e r ) and i t j u s t b r o u g h t back a l l k i n d s o f neat f e e l i n g s .  -  121  -  L e t me s e e , what was t h a t l i k e . I t ' s s u r e d i f f e r e n t . I can remember t h a t as a b e i n g much b i g g e r , b i g g e r a d j u s t m e n t t h a n g e t t i n g m a r r i e d , when the f i r s t c h i l d came. We had our n e x t c h i l d e l e v e n and a h a l f months a f t e r so i t was r e a l l y k i n d o f , you know, we'd s a i d w e l l l e t ' s have them bang, bang, bang, but we d i d n ' t r e a l i z e t h a t i t was so e a s y , ( l a u g h t e r ) Bang. So we were r e a l l y v e r y c h i l d o r i e n t e d f r o m the s t a r t . But we s t i l l d i d , you see I was j u s t t h i n k i n g , C h r i s was b o r n i n ah, on the 31st o f J a n u a r y and on the 15th of F e b r u a r y we went s k i i n g f o r t h r e e weeks and he went with us. So our p a t t e r n , l i k e we were s t i l l a b l e to do t h o s e things. So t h a t hadn't . . ., i t c e r t a i n l y changed our weekend s t u f f . Are you l o o k i n g f o r l i k e , I'm not s u r e what y o u ' r e l o o k i n g for. I mean i t s u r e changed us because f i r s t of a l l none of our f r i e n d s had c h i l d r e n . We s t a r t e d to be the ones t h a t e n t e r t a i n e d by d i n n e r p a r t i e s and a l s o o u r , l i k e I was a t home now, I l o v e d i t , I j u s t l o v e d i t . W. was w o r k i n g and t h a t was a, l i k e we thought we'd a r r i v e d , you know, t h i s was what we'd been w o r k i n g f o r , b u i l d i n g a f a m i l y . So I c a n ' t remember a n y t h i n g p a r t i c u l a r l y t h a t was n e g a t i v e . . . i t was j u s t l i k e we were p l a y i n g house. I: CR:  And  i t worked, t h a t was  the  thing.  Ya.  I:  W.  worked and  you  were a t home w o r k i n g .  CR:  And i t was a n i c e time f o r him. The company was g r o w i n g and the f a m i l y was g r o w i n g . The k i d s were h e a l t h y , we'd never had any k i n d of problems t h a t way. Nobody was, none of our k i d s were c o l i c y o r we'd p r o b a b l y o n l y would have had one. Somehow, I mean, t h a t d o e s n ' t j u s t happen, t h a t ' s got to be, you know, the k i d s d i d n ' t , I don't know, when I see p e o p l e t h a t t h e i r k i d s get them a n g r y . P a r t l y we s h a r e d t h a t , t h a t l o o k i n g a f t e r the k i d s . I t wasn't j u s t t h a t I had the k i d s and he went to work and came and k i s s e d them g o o d n i g h t . L i k e he r e a l l y had f u n w i t h them so t h e r e was a n i c e and t h a t ' s p a r t l y what I m i s s e d when he got i n v o l v e d i n the m u s i c business.  I:  H i s t i m e to be  CR:  W e l l i t was a l l t i m e r e l a t e d . H i s t i m e from me and h i s time from the f a m i l y , h i s t i m e f r o m the k i d s , i t was r e a l l y a r e m o t e r f e e l i n g . L i k e , I'm on my own. Which wasn't t h e r e a t a l l i n the f i r s t p a r t of our m a r r i a g e .  I:  So you j u s t , you f e l t as you s a y , j u s t on your own a l i t t l e b i t more, he wasn't t h e r e to s h a r e and h e l p out and s u p p o r t as much as he had been b e f o r e .  CR:  Ya, I don't even mean p h y s i c a l l y , he wasn't even r e a l l y t h e r e , he was m e n t a l l y t h i n k i n g a l l t h i s o t h e r s t u f f . P e o p l e were always coming t o house f o r m e e t i n g s , l i k e he was j u s t too busy, from my p o i n t of v i e w . I don't know from h i s what, how t h a t was. I t might  . . .  -  122  -  have been v e r y s t i m u l a t i n g f o r him, I have a f e e l i n g i t was he l o v e s t h a t a d r e n i l i n go-go s t u f f .  'cause  (8 seconds s i l e n c e ) The s a t i s f a c t i o n , I mean, now when I t h i n k about i t , i t was p a r t of what made i t v e r y c o m f o r t a b l e was b e i n g a b l e t o a f f o r d to have time o f f and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . You know I see young f a m i l i e s s t r u g g l i n g and not b e i n g a b l e to go out f o r a d i n n e r or have a b a b y s i t t e r f o r a day or s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . You know i t doesn't take me v e r y l o n g to remember what t h a t ' s l i k e w i t h f o u r p r e - s c h o o l e r s a t home and on the go a l l the t i m e . You g e t t i r e d i f t h a t goes on and on w i t h o u t any r e l i e f , you know. So t h a t was l o o k e d a f t e r and I t h i n k t h a t was i n s t r u m e n t a l - j u s t to have t h a t freedom. I:  CR:  And I guess W. was l o o k i n g a f t e r t h a t p a r t of i t e s s e n t i a l l y , wasn't he. I mean be a b l e t o go out and f u l f i l l t h a t and a l l o w t o have t h a t t i m e t o g e t h e r .  you  A b s o l u t e l y , he's always been a good p r o v i d e r , always has. I've g r e a t r e s p e c t f o r h i s a b i l i t y t o , you know, even a f t e r t h e b a n k r u p t c y he's j u s t worked and worked and worked and he's got back, w e l l i t ' s g e t t i n g t h e r e . You know the end of the t u n n e l ' s s i g h t and i t ' s f r o m h a r d work and not g i v i n g up.  I:  He d i d n ' t g i v e up and were t h e r e t o o .  CR:  No, but I wasn't the one t h a t was h a v i n g t o , you know, go to the banks and make the money and make the d e c i s i o n s and make t h i n g s grow, I mean he's r e a l l y , he's v e r y c l e v e r at t h a t . V e r y . I mean i f I was the p r o v i d e r we wouldn't be where we a r e so I keep r e m i n d i n g m y s e l f about t h a t . I'm s u r e g l a d he's the p r o v i d e r around h e r e , c o u n s e l l i n g ' s n e v e r g o i n g to get us v e r y f a r , i t j u s t happens t o be what I l i k e d o i n g .  I:  And  CR:  Um-mmm. We've got t h r e e . We've got our f i r s t , our f i r s t son was k i l l e d you know, and our second boy j u s t g r a d u a t e d from M. t h i s y e a r and we have a d a u g h t e r i n grade e l e v e n and a son i n grade nine.  I:  So i f he's s t i l l i n grade n i n e , so i t ' s r e a l l y , t h e y ' r e not gone, t h e y ' r e g o i n g t o be t h e r e f o r a few more y e a r s . Your l i f e h a s n ' t t a k e n a, y o u ' r e back w o r k i n g , y o u ' r e g o i n g to s c h o o l r i g h t now and so t h e r e ' s s t i l l , t h i n g s are the same as t h e y ' v e been f o r a number of y e a r s 'cause t h e r e ' s k i d s a t home to l o o k a f t e r and t h e r e ' s t h a t s o r t of a s p e c t of y o u r l i f e t o keep you g o i n g , t o keep g o i n g I guess.  CR:  Ya, t h a t ' s r i g h t , a l t h o u g h I see i t o v e r l a p p i n g now w i t h my own c a r e e r development. I t ' s not k i n d of t h a t t h a t ' s g o i n g to end and t h e n the n e x t s t a g e s t a r t s . I t h i n k my next s t a g e has s t a r t e d , you  do you  you  d i d n ' t g i v e up e i t h e r .  s t i l l have a c h i l d a t  Sounds l i k e  in  you  school?  -  123  -  know, and i t ' s k i n d of i n t e g r a t e d w i t h the f a c t t h a t t h e y ' r e s t a r t i n g t o l e a v e s c h o o l , t o l e a v e home. I:  You s a i d you got i n t o coming back t o s c h o o l because of s o r t of l o o k i n g i n t o the f u t u r e and t h i n k i n g about the f a c t t h a t t h i n g s change and you might want t o p r e p a r e y o u r s e l f , i s t h a t r i g h t ?  may  CR:  Oh y a , f o r s u r e . T h i n g s were c h a n g i n g f o r me and I had n o t d e v e l o p e d any s k i l l s . I f I was g o i n g t o be a - o r wasn' t e v e r t h i n k i n g I'd e v e r want t o go back t o t h e B.C. Hydro i n t h e a c c o u n t i n g d e p t . And t h a t was always a v a i l a b l e . I used to go back p a r t t i m e . But i f I was g o i n g t o be on my own i n some way, whether m a r r i e d o r not m a r r i e d t h e n I wanted t o have some t r a i n i n g . That's when I s t a r t e d back t o u n i v e r s i t y . Sure i t ' s a l o n g t i m e ago because I d i d my u n d e r g r a d u a t e degree f i r s t . And I d i d n ' t s t a r t i n t o the m a s t e r ' s . . .  I:  So you were t h i n k i n g t h e n t h a t perhaps t h a t m a r r i a g e r e l a t i o n s h i p m i g h t f a l t e r and you'd be on y o u r own. Was t h a t p a r t of y o u r m o t i v a t i o n f o r g e t t i n g out or was i t . . . ?  CR:  I don't know, i t ' s k i n d of i n t e r e s t i n g i s n ' t i t . I've t h o u g h t about t h a t . I know t h a t the p o s i t o n I was i n a t the t i m e t h a t was u n c o m f o r t a b l e f o r me had t o do w i t h our m a r r i a g e and the d i r e c t i o n i t was g o i n g i n . I t was c o n f u s i n g t o me as I s a i d 'cause our m a r r i a g e was not v o l a t i l e . I t was s t a b l e , and we were s t i l l r e l i a b l e and v e r y fond of each o t h e r . But we were, our d i r e c t i o n was d i f f e r e n t . We were s t a r t i n g t o go o f f i n a d i f f e r e n t direction. But not i n the sense of t u r n i n g one's back on a p a r t of it. I t was l i k e i f you s u d d e n l y d e c i d e d t o go and ah, you know, y o u ' r e a c o u n s e l l o r and you s u d d e n l y d e c i d e d t o go and be a s c u l p t o r , i t was i n G r e e c e . You know, i t ' s a d i f f e r e n t d i r e c t i o n and so t h e r e ' s some d e c i s i o n s t o be made. I t was more l i k e t h a t . So I s t a r t e d t o l o o k a t m y s e l f 'cause I'd always f e l t v e r y s e c u r e up u n t i l t h a t t i m e . I don't know i f i t would have happened anyway o r n o t , t h a t ' s always s o m e t h i n g I t o y w i t h . You know, what made you s t a r t t o r e a l l y l o o k and s e a r c h . I'd always wanted t o go on i n u n i v e r s i t y b u t I h a d n ' t . I'd come f o r one y e a r a f t e r h i g h s c h o o l and gone o f f on a t r i p and gone t o work and so on. So I d e c i d e d t h a t I'd s t a r t back t o u n i v e r s i t y and T. had j u s t gone i n t o g r a d e one and t h a t was our l a s t c h i l d so I had the t i m e . I was t h i n k i n g , w e l l what w i l l I do? 'Cause now I've t h i s t i m e I ' l l e i t h e r g e t a p a r t t i m e j o b o r something and I chose u n i v e r s i t y 'cause I wanted t o b u i l d s o m e t h i n g . But i n the back, I mean t h a t seemed t o be t h e c a t a l y s t t h a t made me s a y , "now i s the time t o s t a r t d o i n g i t . "  I:  What was W.'s about i t ?  CR:  Oh, I know what he was f e e l i n g about i t . He was v e r y s u p p o r t i v e . V e r y s u p p o r t i v e . And t h a t ' s t y p i c a l f o r b o t h of u s . E x c e p t f o r the music b u s i n e s s . That's why i t ' s such an i s s u e because i t  r e a c t i o n t o . . . what do you t h i n k he was  feeling  - 124 s t a r t e d out i n n o c e n t l y enough i n b e i n g s u p p o r t i v e but t h e n i t got more i n v o l v e d and more i n v o l v e d and we s t a r t e d t o t h i n k d i f f e r e n t l y about i t . And t h e r e was no r e s o l u t i o n . That's not a t y p i c a l p a t t e r n i n our m a r r i a g e , we u s u a l l y can t a l k about s o m e t h i n g . I f I want to do s o m e t h i n g , he's always s u p p o r t i v e . He's a v e r y p o s i t i v e t h i n k i n g p e r s o n . And I t h i n k t h a t a l s o i s a tremendous b o o s t as f a r as t h e s a t i s f a c t i o n t h a t I f e e l out of l i v i n g w i t h somebody l i k e t h a t . I'm n e v e r , you know a f r a i d t o b r i n g up an i d e a o r s u g g e s t . . . you know i f I went home t o d a y and s a i d , " l o o k I'd l o v e t o go and l i v e i n F r a n c e f o r a y e a r . " W e l l he wouldn't j u s t say w e l l , " f o r g e t t h a t . " L i k e we'd t a l k about i t and come t o some k i n d of a . . . we c o u l d o r we c o u l d n ' t . So t h a t i s a q u a l i t y t h a t I really like. I:  Is there anything  e l s e you want to add?  CR:  No, I t h i n k t h a t ' s i t .  -  125  INTERVIEW  #2  I:  P l e a s e r e f l e c t on your m a r r i a g e and t h e n t e l l me the s t o r y of y o u r e x p e r i e n c e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . You may want to g i v e me an o u t l i n e of the s a t i s f a c t i o n i n your m a r r i a g e f r o m the b e g i n n i n g u n t i l now or you might l i k e to d e s c r i b e v i g n e t t e s of e x p e r i e n c e t h a t t y p i f y the s a t i s f a c t i o n you f e e l .  CR:  Ok. When y o u ' r e s a y i n g t h a t , the c h r o n o l o g i c a l w i t h the v i g n e t t e s i n i t might w e l l be t h e , I f e e l c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h t h a t one. In o t h e r words t h a t seems t o a have a f l o w to i t t o me. And so maybe t o g i v e you a l i t t l e b i t of b a c k g r o u n d . I've known C. s i n c e she was f i f t e e n . We b o t h came f r o m K. She went to a d i f f e r e n t s c h o o l and came r e a l l y f r o m N. K. w h i c h I s s e p a r a t e d by w a t e r and a bridge. So she went t o a d i f f e r e n t s c h o o l and a l l t h a t t h a n I did. She was f i f t e e n and I was s e v e n t e e n a t the t i m e . And so you might say s o r t of l i k e the hometown s w e e t h e a r t number. At any r a t e I went o f f to u n i v e r s i t y a t n i n e t e e n and we'd been g o i n g out a l l that time.  I:  You mean d u r i n g h i g h s c h o o l even though you weren't i n the same school.  CR:  You know, we'd meet on weekends and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s . But j u s t s o r t of l i k e b o y f r i e n d - g i r l f r i e n d r e l a t i o n s h i p . A l t h o u g h I t h i n k r e l a t i v e l y e a r l y I n t h a t r e l a t i o n s h i p we'd even t a l k e d about the p o t e n t i a l of i t becoming one w h i c h would l e a d t o m a r r i a g e and a l l t h o s e k i n d s of t h i n g s . At any r a t e , what happened i s t h a t we d i d g e t m a r r i e d a t a r e l a t i v e l y young age. Me, I was twenty-one a t the t i m e , C. was n i n e t e e n . At the same t i m e of c o u r s e I'm g o i n g t o u n i v e r s i t y . By t h i s time she was w o r k i n g . She'd f i n i s h e d her grade 12 and she's w o r k i n g . She's a bookkeeper so i t was easy enough t o get a j o b and a l l t h o s e k i n d s of t h i n g s . So i n f a c t she had the money. And I needed the s u p p o r t , r i g h t . I t was looked upon, c e r t a i n l y I t h i n k by my p a r e n t s , as l i k e , why wouldn't you w a i t at l e a s t u n t i l you f i n i s h e d u n i v e r s i t y so t h a t you know, you see a b i t of an end t o s o m e t h i n g and you s t a r t m a r r i e d l i f e a f t e r t h a t . Not t h a t t h e r e was a tremendous o p p o s i t i o n but t h e r e was c e r t a i n l y some, some c o n c e r n . I t h i n k t h a t i t would be at t h a t level. I guess what I'm s a y i n g t h r o u g h a l l t h i s p r o c e s s i s t h a t f a m i l y i s v e r y much a t b o t h s i d e s . I n o t h e r words i t i s l a r g e r t h a n j u s t the b o t h of u s . There's C.'s s i d e of the f a m i l y and t h e r e ' s l o t s of b r o t h e r s and s i s t e r s and she's the o l d e s t d a u g h t e r of s i x k i d s i n t h a t f a m i l y . Whereas our f a m i l y i s , I'm the second son of f o u r k i d s on our s i d e . But b o t h f a m i l i e s are v e r y c l o s e and ah, c l o s e w i t h i n t h e m s e l v e s . I t was o n l y a f t e r we"got m a r r i e d t h a t t h e y became s o r t of a t t a c h e d t o each o t h e r as w e l l . So i n o t h e r words those are made e s s e n t i a l l y as f a m i l y d e c i s i o n s . And once we'd made the d e c i s i o n t h a t we were g o i n g t o get m a r r i e d , I mean, t h e y a l l s a i d , w e l l t h a t ' s f i n e , go f o r i t . We don't know how y o u ' r e g o i n g t o get a l o n g at u n i v e r s i t y and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s but you guys have made t h a t d e c i s i o n and we r e s p e c t i t . So we got  -  126  -  married. We came down t o V a n c o u v e r . I t h i n k i t was a somewhat s c a r y s i t u a t i o n f o r C. She'd n e v e r r e a l l y t r a v e l l e d and i t meant a l s o t h a t , I t h i n k t h a t the s e t of f r i e n d s t h a t we had t h e n , which were u n i v e r s i t y f r i e n d s and so on, were b a s i c a l l y my f r i e n d s . In a s e n s e I guess what happened o v e r t i m e , and I t h i n k what does happen w i t h m a r r i a g e and f o r women i n p a r t i c u l a r , i s t h a t not o n l y do t h e y l o s e t h e i r l a s t name but t h e y l o s e a c e r t a i n sense of i d e n t i t y to t h a t name. O f t e n even the f r i e n d s h i p s t h a t go a l o n g w i t h i t . The f r i e n d s we had became b a s i c a l l y my f r i e n d s . Of c o u r s e we k e p t coming back t o K. and had r e l a t i v e s on a r e g u l a r b a s i s and of c o u r s e we s t i l l have f a m i l y and a l l of t h a t c o n n e c t i o n . I think a l s o t h a t we had a t t i t u d e s i n t h o s e days w h i c h were, t h i n k i n g back, i s s o r t of l i k e what does one want to do w i t h t h a t u n i v e r s i t y education. Where does one want t o go and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s . I know l o o k i n g back a t c a r e e r o p p o r t u n i t i e s and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s I j u s t d i d n ' t know what the h e l l I wanted t o do. We never thought about h a v i n g k i d s , i n f a c t we d e f i n i t e l y t h o u g h t about not h a v i n g k i d s . That would c e r t a i n l y put an end t o our o p t i o n s . I t h i n k t h a t was p a r t of b o t h our c o n s c i e n c e n e s s . A l t h o u g h we n e v e r r e a l l y , I mean t h e r e wasn't even r e a l l y much d i s c u s s i o n about t h a t o t h e r than t h a t was s o r t of l i k e i n t u i t i v e l y u n d e r s t o o d t h a t somewhere we had to make some d e c i s i o n s about where we were g o i n g . Quite c l e a r l y that c o u l d n ' t happen u n t i l a f t e r u n i v e r s i t y and even t h e n we're not s u r e of what was h a p p e n i n g . I:  So you d i d s i t down and years.  say i f you were g o i n g to have k i d s i n t e n  CR:  No,  I:  You  CR:  And y e t as I say i t wasn't something we'd s i t down and have t h i s g r e a t d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t , but you know, l i k e I say, i n t u i t i v e l y we d i d a l l t h o s e k i n d s of t h i n g s . I t h i n k o t h e r a t t i t u d e s too are I m p o r t a n t because they change o v e r t i m e . That p a r t of m a r r i e d l i f e and I t h i n k p a r t i c u l a r l y f o r C., you know, I can t h i n k of t i m e s , l i k e the t h i n g t h a t you d i d on the weekend i s t h a t you went out s h o p p i n g and s o , you know, she l o o k e d f o r w a r d to t h a t . I t was g o i n g downtown and do the Bay, Woodwards, E a t o n s , you know, the t r i a n g l e t h e r e and i t was t h r e e p a i r s of new s h o e s , i t a l l had to match t h o s e k i n d s of t h i n g s . That was a way of l i f e t h a t was i n h e r i t e d from u p b r i n g i n g i n K. That was a way of l i f e t h e r e , the c l o t h e s and a l l t h a t , so i t f i t i n r i g h t h e r e . I d i s t i n g u i s h t h a t f r o m C., s e p a r a t e from m y s e l f , because I was j u s t l e a d i n g t h i s u n i v e r s i t y l i f e where none of t h o s e k i n d s of v a l u e s r e a l l y m a t t e r . Now I d o n ' t see t h o s e as p a r t i n g v a l u e s but d e f i n i t e l y d i s s i m i l a r values that occurred. I b r i n g t h a t up because C. changed t r e m e n d o u s l y o v e r t i m e . I t h i n k a l s o - I d o n ' t know what r o l e i t p l a y s , C. was brought up C a t h o l i c and I was brought up A n g l i c a n , d e f i n i t e l y not s t r o n g A n g l i c a n . C. was d e f i n i t e l y b r o u g h t up as a s t r o n g C a t h o l i c s i m p l y because you don't have a c h o i c e . I think  No. j u s t weren't s u r e , you  b o t h seemed to r e a l i z e t h a t you  . . .  -  127  -  f o r the f i r s t time a l s o i n her l i f e t h a t she had to come to g r i p s w i t h a t t i t u d e s towards r e l i g i o n and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s . And I t h i n k f r o m a u n i v e r s i t y p e r s p e c t i v e and a not t e r r i b l y o r t h o d o x r e l i g i o u s p e r s p e c t i v e . These v i e w s d i f f e r e d . Now a g a i n as p a r t of the s o r t of t o l e r a n c e on my s i d e , o r w h a t e v e r , we got m a r r i e d i n a C a t h o l i c C h u r c h . I changed o v e r t o be C a t h o l i c t o get m a r r i e d i n t h e church. I f you want a c h u r c h wedding you have t o become a C a t h o l i c you become . . . t h a t ' s i t you see. Now a g a i n my f a m i l y i s , l i k e wow. And not o n l y t h a t we used t o go to c h u r c h r e g u l a r l y . S l o w l y I was l i k e , "hey, why do we have t o get up, you know, I've got a hangover," or w h a t e v e r . And of c o u r s e I was seen as the . . . and t h a t wasn't a g r e a t s t r u g g l e I e s s e n t i a l l y have t o m e n t i o n i t because I don't t h i n k i t became a s o u r c e of r e a l l y of g r i e f but o b v i o u s l y C. o b v i o u s l y bent t h a t way t o o . She went away from t h e r e and has o v e r time s o r t of q u e s t i o n e d t h a t whole r o l e of c h u r c h w i t h i n o r t h o d o x r e l i g i o n and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . And sees now more C h r i s t i a n v a l u e s , s p r i t u a l v a l u e s and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . I t ' s much more i m p o r t a n t t h a n becoming an o r t h o d o x a n y t h i n g . So i n o t h e r words the v a l u e s are i m p o r t a n t , the o r t h o d o x y i s n ' t . So t h o s e are some of the v i g n e t t e s . Through a l l t h i s I t h i n k t h a t I'm f a i r l y t o l e r a n t . Somewhere a l o n g the l i n e my v a l u e s were, were ... she's changed the g r e a t e s t because of my v a l u e s . And I'm s u r e mine changed as w e l l . I:  O r i g i n a l l y she was i n t o d r e s s i n g w e l l and a l l t h i s s o r t of s t u f f and the c h u r c h a t t i t u d e was way d i f f e r e n t and she's l e a n e d more toward where you were.  CR:  A l s o , I t h i n k why I b r i n g the h i s t o r i c c o n t e x t because t h e r e ' s some number of e v e n t s i n our l i v e s t h a t h e l p e d t o change some of t h a t . One of them i s t h a t the k i n d of f r i e n d s t h a t I had i n u n i v e r s i t y were p e o p l e who began to t r a v e l . A c o u p l e of f r i e n d s i n p a r t i c u l a r went and p l a y e d hockey f o r B e l g i u m and went o v e r t h e r e j u s t to p l a y hockey and work and they have them work j u s t t o p l a y hockey o v e r t h e r e . And t h e y came back and d i d a s l i d e show a t my p l a c e . In f a c t I remember d i s t i n c t l y , I f e l l a s l e e p d u r i n g the s l i d e show, I t h i n k I've done i t e v e r s i n c e . But n e v e r the l e s s i t l e f t t h i s i m p r e s s i o n on me and i t l e f t an i m p r e s s i o n on C. as w e l l and t h i s was r i g h t d u r i n g my f o u r t h y e a r so i t was coming up to my Bachelor's. I t was coming t o a p o i n t where I knew t h a t the c a r e e r was f i n i s h i n g as a u n i v e r s i t y s t u d e n t . I had no d e s i r e w h a t s o e v e r t o c o n t i n u e on nor d i d I r e a l l y have the marks. I o n l y saw a B.A. degree as a means to an end. But keep i n mind t h a t t h i s i s 1967 and a B.A. was a means t o an end. That's when a l l t h o s e i n t e r v i e w s used t o happen out t h e r e a t U.B.C. . . . ( t a l k about c a r e e r c h o i c e and the f i r s t j o b he l a n d e d ) . . . . And I got one, I was w o r k i n g f o r E a t o n s c o n t r a c t s a l e s . I n f a c t I had a, I was the r e g i o n a l o f f i c e a d m i n i s t r a t o r f o r B.C. and A l b e r t a .  I:  Just l i k e that, l i k e f i r s t  CR:  Bang, j u s t r i g h t  now.  . . .  - 128 a l l t h i s t i m e was  -  I:  And  C. w o r k i n g as a bookkeeper?  C:  Yes, and as a bookkeeper f o r a r e a l e s t a t e f i r m t h a t t h r o u g h mergers and t a k e o v e r s k e p t c h a n g i n g i t s name. And so she changed l o c a t i o n s a few t i m e s , f r o m downtown g o i n g up to 4 1 s t and A r b u t u s . What happened was t h a t h e r e i n '67 I had seen t h e s e s l i d e s , Europe and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s , and i n my mind I'm s a y i n g , "hey, t h a t ' s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I r e a l l y want t o do". I n o t h e r words what I'm b e g i n n i n g to see i s t h a t h e r e I've got to get a c a r e e r or something when the B.A. f i n i s h e s . I want t o t r a v e l b e f o r e I e v e r r e a l l y make t h o s e heavy d e c i s i o n s , I want to see more of the w o r l d , and I'm making t h o s e k i n d s of d e c i s i o n s w i t h o u t r e a l l y a r t i c u l a t i n g w i t h C. o t h e r than s a y i n g , "hey, l o o k I t , we s h o u l d be t h e r e , l e t ' s go f o r i t . " And , i n f a c t I remember s e e i n g t h a t s l i d e show, i t was p r o b a b l y somewhere around about F e b r u a r y and I s a y s , " l i s t e n C., I ' l l t e l l you r i g h t now, when we when I f i n i s h and I get my degree I'm j u s t g o i n g to work and we are g o i n g to s p l i t ! " She s a y s , and t h i s i s where she i s the p r a c t i c a l s i d e , she i s the b o o k k e e p i n g and a l l t h a t , she s a y s : " f o r g e t i t . You are g o i n g t o s p l i t , but what money?" And of c o u r s e she i s r i g h t . I s a i d we j u s t c a n ' t w a i t around and I guess what I was r e a l l y s a y i n g and r e a c t i n g and t h i n k i n g back on t h a t , how can I s t a r t a c a r e e r of something and t h e n l e a v e i t , but t h e n I r e a l i z e t h a t ' s e x a c t l y what I had to do. And so I went t o t h i s j o b knowing f u l l w e l l t h a t the j o b was a means f o r an end and the end i s l e a v i n g . And s o , as I s a y , a l l of a sudden w a l k i n g i n t o t h i s j o b w i t h t h r e e p i e c e s u i t s on and managing an o f f i c e s t a f f and a l l t h o s e k i n d s of t h i n g s . And I r e a l l y e n j o y e d t h a t e x p e r i e n c e , i t wasn't too bad. Except t h a t I a l s o had t h e n some s u b t l e and l e s s than s u b t l e s o r t of h i n t s f r o m the management p e r s p e c t i v e , of how one has a whole . . . s o r t of b e i n g a manager t h a t you have t o have a c e r t a i n amount of trappings. I n o t h e r words my boss was s a y i n g , l i k e , "how come you are s t i l l l i v i n g i n a basement s u i t e i n the West End, you s h o u l d be t h i n k i n g about a house, m o r t g a g e , t i e d to the j o b , " r i g h t ? K i d s and so on. And I used t o have an A u s t i n m i n i , i t was- C.'s c a r . Keep t e l l i n g her t h a t ' s why I m a r r i e d h e r . But what happened I s t h a t he would s a y , " w e l l you know as a manager you s h o u l d now be t h i n k i n g of a h a l f - d e c e n t c a r , " because I wasn't g o i n g to spend any money. I n f a c t , as you know, as a s t u d e n t and you do know, i s t h a t you a r e a b l e t o make do on a r e l a t i v e l y s m a l l amount of money. And I mean we c o n t i n u e d l i v i n g t h a t way. And each month - and I got somewhere i n e x c e s s of 600 d o l l a r s each month, and t h a t was a h e l l of a l o t of money, i t j u s t a l l went i n t o the bank. We k e p t l i v i n g o f f of C's s a l a r y . Yeah. And so i t j u s t went ...  I:  And off  a l l t h i s t i m e were you guys t a l k i n g a l i t t l e b i t about t a k i n g and was C. a c c e p t i n g i t more?  CR:  Yes. And Where was  I:  How  t h e n i t o n l y became the d i m e n s i o n s of the t r i p i t g o i n g to be t o , and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t .  d i d she happen t o change her v i e w from, no way,  itself.  to . . .  - 129 CR:  Oh no, she wasn't e v e r s a y i n g no way t o t r a v e l l i n g . What she s a i d was no way o f t r a v e l l i n g w i t h o u t money. Because she i n i t i a l l y t h o u g h t t h a t i t was q u i t e e x c i t i n g , q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g . I d o n ' t t h i n k she e v e r r e a l i z e d t h e p a r a m e t e r s . I guess a l s o what I'm a l s o s u g g e s t i n g here i s t h a t from K. she came t o V., she l i v e d i n a compartment i n a s e n s e . I n K. you a r e p r o t e c t e d by f r i e n d s and r e l a t i v e s and s t u f f l i k e t h i s . M a r r i e d , she came down and she had me and was a b l e t o do t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . Whereas coming down t o u n i v e r s i t y I came a l o n e and d i d a l l t h o s e k i n d s of t h i n g s and l i k e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , you never had any money i n t h o s e d a y s , you had t o b o r r o w money t o g e t t h r o u g h u n i v e r s i t y , s t u d e n t l o a n s and a l l t h a t k i n d o f s t u f f . And I mean one h i t c h - h i k e d . And you u n d e r s t o o d t h e whole h i t c h - h i k i n g m e n t a l i t y and how t o l i v e w i t h n o t h i n g and a l l t h a t k i n d of s t u f f . And she r e a l l y never had t h a t k i n d o f experience. Other t h a n t h e o c c a s i o n a l t i m e when I ' d take h e r along. But h e r c o n t a c t w i t h u n i v e r s i t y was t h r o u g h my f r i e n d s , l i k e we used t o go t o p a r t i e s and l i k e t h a t , more t h a n l i k e , h e r f r i e n d s a t work, t h e p l a c e s she began t o work. Now she g e t s t o know some o f t h e s e p e o p l e but n e v e r t o the degree o f my p e o p l e , o f my f r i e n d s , t h i n g s l i k e t h i s . So she g o t more and more exposed t o the u n i v e r s i t y scene i n terms o f t h e p a r t y scene w h i c h would o f t e n i n v o l v e n o t j u s t a m a t t e r of g o i n g o u t t h e r e and d r i n k i n g and a l l t h o s e k i n d s o f t h i n g s but would o f t e n i n v o l v e some k i n d of p o l i t i c a l and p h i l o s o p h i c a l d e b a t e s and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s . And she s t a r t e d g e t t i n g more and more i n t o t h a t and e n j o y i n g t h a t s p h e r e . And so t h a t when I s t a r t e d w o r k i n g , i f a n y t h i n g I f e l t t h a t I was the one who was somewhat d e c e p t i v e , i n t h a t I knew t h a t t h i s j o b was o n l y g o i n g t o be t o a c e r t a i n degree and i n f a c t i t was, i t was 10 months. And t h e n I j u s t t o l d my b o s s , I s a y s , " w e l l you know, two t h i n g s a r e g o i n g t o happen, one i s t h a t I now r e a l i z e t h a t I want t o go back t o u n i v e r s i t y f o r a d e g r e e , I d o n ' t know what k i n d . And t h e o t h e r t h i n g i s t h a t b e f o r e I do t h a t t h e r e i s no q u e s t i o n t h a t I r e a l l y want t o t r a v e l , " and I was a c t u a l l y t h i n k i n g i n many ways o f an MBA d e g r e e , ( b o t h t a l k a t same t i m e ) . . . t h e n I c o u l d g e t much more o f a c h o i c e and t h e MBA d e g r e e was j u s t becoming i m p o r t a n t a t t h a t t i m e as w e l l . And anyway he s a i d , " f i n e , good recommendation and e v e r y t h i n g e l s e , come back h e r e , f e e l f r e e . " So we took o f f . And t h a t was i n 1968, we took o f f . And a g a i n , maybe t o g i v e some o f the c o n s e r v a t i v e background o f C's p a r e n t s and so on - t h e y s a i d "you seem t o have $5,000 and you mean t o s a y you a r e j u s t g o i n g t o take t h i s and blow i t ? "  I:  A l o t of money.  CR:  I t was a l o t o f money. You have t o keep i n mind t h a t i t c o u l d have bought a house f o r t e n o r t w e l v e thousand d o l l a r s , and a decent home. And t o have f i v e thousand r i g h t t h e r e , man.  I:  Wow.  -  130  -  CR:  And so t h e y were s a y i n g , "how can you do t h i s ? You are j u s t g o i n g t o go o v e r t h e r e and how are you g o i n g t o get around? You're j u s t g o i n g to h i t c h - h i k e ? " Whoooooo - I t was a l l t r e a t e d i n s o r t of a l i k e j o k i n g manner and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s but t h e y j u s t had a v e r y , v e r y c o n s e r v a t i v e background on her s i d e of the f a m i l y . My mother has always been one who wants t o t r a v e l , anyway, so she was s a y i n g , "hey, I w i s h I c o u l d come!" And so t h e r e was n e v e r r e a l l y any s t a t i c f r o m my s i d e of the f a m i l y and t h e r e was always t h a t s o r t of l i k e , i f a n y t h i n g I s u p p o s e , encouragement to go. But f o r u s , and I always s a i d t h i s l a t e r t o o , a f t e r t r a v e l l i n g , i s t h a t I t h i n k t h a t was the g r e a t e s t change f o r b o t h of us because I can t h i n k of a c o u p l e of s i t u a t i o n s when you are w o r k i n g and g o i n g t o s c h o o l and s t u f f l i k e t h i s , you are not r e a l l y t o g e t h e r a l l t h a t much, you a r e a t home at c e r t a i n times and you are away most of the day. And things l i k e t h i s . So, i n terms of a c t u a l l y b e i n g t o g e t h e r and c o n v e r s a t i o n a l t i m e - what i t does i t r e a l l y throws you t o g e t h e r . And i t throws you t o g e t h e r under c i r c u m s t a n c e s w h i c h are r e a l l y p o t e n t i a l l y complex s i t u a t i o n s .  I:  The  CR:  The t r a v e l l i n g p a r t . Because t h e r e are times when o b v i o u s l y y o u a r e l o s t , you are hungry, you don't know, you c a n ' t t a l k because you are i n a d i f f e r e n t c o u n t r y and t h a t became a r e a l p r o b l e m , t h a t one, f o r C. i n p a r t i c u l a r .  t r a v e l l i n g p a r t of i t you mean.  Our f i r s t e x p e r i e n c e , what happened we went to I r e l a n d , h i t c h - h i k e d around I r e l a n d , and t h a t was a good e x p e r i e n c e . H i t c h - h i k e d around S c o t l a n d and E n g l a n d and t h a t was a n o t h e r good e x p e r i e n c e . And t h e n as soon as we h i t the c o n t i n e n t , hey, c a n ' t speak. I j u s t remember the s c e n e , and she was i n t e a r s . And of c o u r s e t h e n her r e l i a n c e upon me, i n t h a t k i n d of s i t u a t i o n , and I j u s t d i d n ' t have the a n s w e r s . But t h i s k i n d of s t o r y i s o n l y symptomatic of the k i n d s of s t r e s s t h a t you can be u n d e r , and you have no one to t u r n t o but y o u r s e l v e s . And out of t h a t you b e g i n to change. And the o t h e r c r i s i s p o i n t t h a t came i n the t r i p i s something t h a t we had discussed before. And t h a t i s how l o n g i s the t r i p g o i n g to be! (laughter) C. says i t was g o i n g t o be a y e a r . We'd go t o Europe and t r i p around Europe and come back from E u r o p e . I:  And  t h i s was  '68  CR:  Yeah, j u s t s t a r t i n g to do t h i s , e x a c t l y . And I s a i d I t h i n k what we would do i s t h a t we s h o u l d go o v e r t h e r e and we s h o u l d , I s h o u l d back up h e r e . She says a y e a r , we were g o i n g to go to E u r o p e , and t h e n she was t h i n k i n g we might go around the r e s t of the w o r l d . And I s a i d what we do i s go t o E u r o p e , t r i p around Europe and work a year. See i f we can get j o b s . And t h e n work f o r the w i n t e r and t h e n go around the w o r l d .  I:  So you had happen.  two  so p e o p l e were j u s t s t a r t i n g to do  this.  b a s i c a l l y d i f f e r e n t i d e a s about what was  g o i n g to  -  131  -  CR:  Yeah, t h a t ' s r i g h t , and I ' d m e n t i o n o c c a s i o n a l l y l i k e " i f we would spend a c o u p l e of y e a r s t r a v e l l i n g t h i s would be g r e a t . " She i s s a y i n g we a r e coming back a f t e r . . . But o t h e r t h a n t h a t i t n e v e r came down t o t h a t u n t i l i t came t o t h e end, i t came t o September o r October.  I:  The y e a r was up?  CR:  W e l l , no t h a t was because we l e f t i n A p r i l o r May I g u e s s , t h e end of May. And i t came down t o t h e end o f September so the d e c i s i o n was t o e i t h e r keep g o i n g around t h e w o r l d , o r you s t o p and work. And I would s a y , " t h a t ' s not g o i n g t o work." And she s a i d , " w e l l J e s u s I don't know - I don't want t o do t h i s and I t h i n k we s h o u l d go on and b e s i d e s , " she s a i d , " s t a r t w o r k i n g , where the h e l l w i l l we work?" W e l l we happened t o be i n s o u t h e r n Germany a t the time and I says w e l l maybe I can be a t e a c h e r . I had my B.A. but not my t e a c h i n g degree. But t h e r e ' s a l l t h o s e C a n a d i a n bases down t h e r e . And I went t o L a h r and p l a c e s l i k e t h i s and c o u l d n ' t g e t on. And t h e n I h e a r d about a p l a c e where the Americans were h i r i n g anybody who wasn't A m e r i c a n . Because what happens i s t h a t they have t h e i r army bases t h e r e i n t h e b e s t p a r t o f Germany and i t was s o r t of like a last ditch effort. So we walked i n t h e r e , i n t h i s p l a c e and they h i r e d both of u s .  I:  Really.  CR:  No, C. was what you'd c a l l a redeployment c l e r k . What she d i d i s she was t h e one who was t y p i n g o u t t h e o r d e r s t o send them t o Vietnam. And I was a b i l l e t i n g c l e r k , because t h i s l i t t l e community o f Oberammergau i s where t h e r e i s r e a l l y a NATO base and a h i g h s c h o o l . We t a u g h t them e v e r y t h i n g t h e r e from how t o assemble weapons t o t y p i n g , and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s . So once we had t h e j o b and the c o n f l i c t was o v e r and t h e n we became s t a b i l i z e d . And i t was t h e b e s t , l o o k i n g back on i t t o r e a l i z e t h e c r i s i s we went t h r o u g h between, l i k e I r e a l l y pushed l o o k i n g f o r t h e j o b o r j o b s p l u r a l , and t h a t was, t h e r e was t i m e s , I remember i n Lahr i n p a r t r i c u l a r , t h e r e was a f a i r amount o f c o n f l i c t o v e r t h a t .  I:  D i d you e v e r g e t t o the p o i n t where one o f y o u , where she s a i d I'm g o i n g home o r a n y t h i n g , you were s t i l l s t i c k i n g o u t ?  CR:  Oh no, n e v e r , e v e r .  I:  So you were k i n d o f , you were f i g u r i n g t h a t i t would be b e s t t o g e t a j o b . And C. was s a y i n g , " w e l l maybe we s h o u l d t r a v e l , " but she went a l o n g w i t h your l o o k i n g f o r work f o r a w h i l e t o see what would happen. And t h e n I guess t h e f a c t t h a t she g o t a j o b h e l p e d o u t .  CR:  Yeah, t h a t ' s r i g h t . p r o b a b l y some o f t h e y e a r . And we met a l back t o Canada. And  To t e a c h ?  So I mean i n r e t r o s p e c t a g a i n t h o s e were b e s t y e a r s o r y e a r we s p e n t . We s k i e d f o r t h e l t h e s e p e o p l e who we t h e n t a l k e d i n t o coming not o n l y t h a t , j u s t t h e r e a l m of f r i e n d s  -  132  -  because we a l l l i v e d i n t h i s o l d h o t e l t h a t was t a k e n o v e r by the A m e r i c a n Army w i t h communal k i t c h e n s and s t u f f l i k e t h i s . And t h e r e i s p e o p l e from A u s t r a l i a and I r e l a n d and S c o t l a n d and Canadians and j u s t everybody and from a l l t h i s g l o b a l c o n t e n t of p e o p l e - and of c o u r s e we a l l became r e a l l y good f r i e n d s o v e r time and i t was j u s t one l o n g p a r t y t i m e . I t was. I t was f a n t a s t i c . I was j u s t showing some s l i d e s of i t the o t h e r n i g h t . One of the o t h e r g u y s ; t h i s guy Herman, not i n the town we l i v e d , but i n a n o t h e r town, was a C a n a d i a n , found out o t h e r Canadians were l i v i n g t h e r e and he used t o come and commute r e g u l a r l y o v e r t o our p l a c e and he was j u s t o v e r h e r e the o t h e r n i g h t . And t h e n I g o t a l e t t e r from a n o t h e r f r i e n d of o u r s who was j u s t a n o t h e r A u s t r a l i a n guy and he went back to A u s t r a l i a v i a the T r a n s - S i b e r i a n r a i l w a y . In Japan he met t h i s woman, t h i s Japanese woman. And i n the l a s t f i v e y e a r s has been l i v i n g i n J a p a n . He's got f o u r k i d s . I:  So you guys kept i n t o u c h w i t h some . . .  CR:  So we've k e p t i n t o u c h w i t h most of them who  I:  T h a t ' s amazing.  CR:  I n f a c t the next t r i p we a r e g o i n g back to v i s i t  I:  A r e you?  CR:  Yeah.  I:  So I t ' s k i n d of been a c o r e to t h r o u g h y o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p , the whole t r a v e l l i n g t h i n g has k i n d of . . .  CR:  Yeah, and a c o r e i s not o n l y the e x p e r i e n c e s and b e i n g t o g e t h e r and i r o n i n g o u t , I t h i n k , any s o r t of s t r e s s - r e l a t e d i s s u e s which u l t i m a t e l y come from t h a t k i n d of t h i n g . But j u s t t a l k i n g about l i f e g e n e r a l l y and b e i n g a b l e to communicate on t h a t one to one and making d e c i s i o n s w h i c h , w e l l , I t h i n k I've p r o b a b l y pushed more my - I've made more of the d e c i s i o n s . I t h i n k C. certainly feels t h a t she p r o b a b l y had a l o t of i n f l u e n c e i n most of t h o s e d e c i s i o n s . But any r a t e , t h e n we headed down to A f r i c a and we h i t c h - h i k e d around A f r i c a , and I thought t h a t l i k e from h e r r e l a t i v e l y no h i t c h - h i k i n g e x p e r i e n c e t o h i t c h - h i k i n g around Europe. And we used t o s l e e p on the s i d e of the road j u s t to save money and go to a c a m p s i t e e v e r y o t h e r day o r so j u s t to have a shower. And t h e n g o i n g t o A f r i c a . We s t a r t e d i n South A f r i c a , Cape Town and we h i t c h - h i k e d up t h r o u g h R h o d e s i a , now Zimbabwe, t h r o u g h Mozambique and i n t o M a l a w a i . We j u s t l i t e r a l l y r a n out of r o a d s . But I was t h i n k i n g l a t e r , you know, w i t h a w h i t e woman, we were j u s t one, the wrong c o l o r , I'm not s u r e i t was a w i s e t h i n g t o do. But h a v i n g done i t , i t was a g r e a t e x p e r i e n c e . But even t h e n t h e r e was t h i s whole t e r r o r i s t element and t h e r e i s a c e r t a i n amount of f e a r t h a t you're because we got t r a p p e d a few times out t h e r e i n the w i l d e r n e s s .  That's  were t h e r e .  neat. them n e x t y e a r .  - 133 I:  And you guys must have gone t h r o u g h a l o t of l i t t l e t h a t you b o t h s h a r e d . . .  experiences  CR:  Yeah, as I s a y . And then we went on and j u s t had more and more good e x p e r i e n c e s i n terms of l i k e , we went t o A u s t r a l i a , we worked i n New Z e a l a n d ; t h e next w i n t e r we worked i n New Z e a l a n d .  I:  So t h i s i s your second y e a r on t h e r o a d .  CR:  Yeah. The second y e a r . And i n t h e meantime I know t h a t were coming c l o s e t o t h e end o f the t r i p . And I know t h e two y e a r s i s coming up, and I know I've a l s o g o t t o make some d e c i s i o n s . About l i k e , what am I g o i n g t o do. Now, community c o l l e g e s were opening up. And I've always thought o f one a s p e c t , i s t e a c h i n g , I don't mind t e a c h i n g . But I j u s t was not i n t o t e a c h i n g e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l o r h i g h s c h o o l and t h a t whole s o r t o f book l i k e , oh what t h e h e l l i s i t c a l l e d , you can see t h e p i c t u r e of t h a t a p p l e .  I:  T e a c h i n g as a S u b v e r s i v e A c t i v i t y ?  CR:  Yeah, t h a t k i n d o f t h i n g , you know. As I s a y one of the b i g problems i s you a r e a l m o s t handed the c u r r i c u l u m , you have a c e r t a i n f l e x i b i l i t y w i t h i n i t , and t h e n t h e r e i s a l l t h a t p o l i t i c a l b u l l s h i t t h a t happens and then the d i s c i p l i n e a c t i o n , s o I j u s t wasn't i n t o t h a t . But meanwhile t h e community c o l l e g e s were o p e n i n g up and I knew one of t h e p e o p l e who were i n v o l v e d i n i t , one o f them was N. R. Because I knew him from K. So I was r e a d i n g , h e r e I am i n New Z e a l a n d , and h e r e I am I'm g o i n g t o w r i t e away and see i f I c a n g e t an MBA and w r i t e t o a few u n i v e r s i t i e s . The a l t e r n a t i v e i s t h a t maybe I s h o u l d go back i n t o geography and do t h i s t h i n g f o r community c o l l e g e s . So I b a s i c a l l y g e t r e j e c t e d w i t h a l l t h e MBA programs, I never had t h e marks. So we f i n a l l y g e t back t o Canada a f t e r g o i n g t o Hong Kong and s p e n d i n g some t i m e i n J a p a n , i t was Expo '70 i n J a p a n , j u s t c o i n c i d e n t i a l l y , a t t h a t t i m e . And t h r o u g h t h i s Japanese woman, who t h i s guy A. m a r r i e d , e v e n t u a l l y , he'd o n l y j u s t met h e r then i n 1970. • We met h e r i n A u s t r a l i a , she came t o A u s t r a l i a w i t h h i m , she gave us t h e a d d r e s s e s of and wrote l e t t e r s t o h e r p a r e n t s and h e r f a m i l y and we s t a y e d w i t h them i n J a p a n . . . . And t h e y were i n K y o t o , which i s l i k e 20 minutes down t h e t r a c k from t h e Osaka World's F a i r . So we s t a y e d t h e r e a week w i t h them. They spoke no E n g l i s h and we spoke no J a p a n e s e , and we a l l had a h e l l of a good t i m e . J u s t a h e l l o f a good t i m e . But . . .  I:  What an e x p e r i e n c e .  CR:  Yeah, i t was, i t was a l l , as I s a y we'd changed so much. And I s a y we, I t h i n k m o s t l y C. had a tremendous t r a n s i t i o n g o i n g from t h r e e p a i r s of m a t c h i n g shoes t o h i t c h - h i k i n g and r e a l l y b e i n g p a r t of that.  - 134 I:  When you s t a r t e d t h i n k i n g about g o i n g back t o s c h o o l and a l l t h a t s o r t o f s t u f f , how d i d t h a t work i n terms of d e c i s i o n making f o r t h a t one?  CR:  Somehow, and a g a i n , i t ' s l i k e o s m o s i s , I was making a d e c i s i o n about what t o do w i t h my l i f e and I j u s t assumed, t h a t , you know C. would work and put me t h r o u g h . And somehow t h a t n e v e r . . .  I:  Wasn't a c c o m p l i s h e d .  CR:  No. No t h a t was r e a l l y , t h a t i s q u i t e i n o r d e r . I t was r e a l l y most i m p o r t a n t t h a t I e v e n t u a l l y d i d s o m e t h i n g w i t h my l i f e . So I j u s t s a i d t o h e r , "God you can g e t a j o b as a bookkeeper anywhere, God, don't w o r r y about t h a t one." So she d i d n ' t , t h a t ' s j u s t t h e way i t went. So t h a t was the i n t e r e s t i n g p a r t o f t h e whole process. So when we d i d come back and I'm b a s i c a l l y r e j e c t e d from the MBA program, w e l l t h e n I'm s o r t o f t h i n k i n g l i k e , how am I g o i n g t o g e t i n t o geography? Because you see i n t h o s e o l d days y o u had t h e d o u b l e m a j o r , and I had i t i n economics and geography. Not the s i n g l e m a j o r . And o f c o u r s e I'd never t a k e n , l i k e i f I was g o i n g t o go i n t o a M a s t e r s degree i n geography, w e l l you'd have t o t a k e a l l t h e r i g h t p r e r e q u i s i t e s and t h a t , w e l l I d i d n ' t t a k e any of those k i n d s o f t h i n g s . What happened i s t h a t you a r e f e e l i n g a l i t t l e b i t o l d e r and you've g o t t h i s two y e a r s o f w o r k i n g and t r a v e l l i n g , w e l l t h r e e y e a r s - a y e a r of w o r k i n g e x p e r i e n c e and two years of t r a v e l l i n g , w e l l three years - a year of working e x p e r i e n c e and J.C. was the Chairman of Geography a t t h e t i m e . I remember w a l k i n g i n and s a y i n g , l i s t e n , I've done a l l t h e s e t h i n g s and I want t o g e t a M a s t e r s i n Geography, and l e t s go f o r i t ! " (laughter)  I:  SFU?  CR:  No, UBC. I was g o i n g t o go t o SFU next i f I d i d n ' t g e t past t h e door on t h i s one. And he s a i d , " w e l l , w e ' l l have t o l o o k a t our r e c o r d s , " and s t u f f l i k e t h i s and I s a y s , " w e l l I- can t e l l you what the r e c o r d s a r e , I d i d n ' t do t e r r i b l y good i n geography, b u t a l l t h a t ' s changed. That changed my l i f e . " I t showed me the d i r e c t i o n I wanted t o go. I knew a c o u p l e o f g r a d s t u d e n t s t h e r e as w e l l , and N. was one o f them. And so anyway, I m e n t i o n e d what was h a p p e n i n g and t h a t I knew a few o f t h e s t u d e n t s and he s a y s , " n o r m a l l y we go t h r o u g h t h i s l o n g and p r o t r a c t e d s t r u g g l e o f r e f e r e n c e s and s t u f f l i k e t h i s b u t t e l l you what w e ' l l do. You t a k e a y e a r o f t h e c o u r s e s we p r e s c r i b e , a l l t h i r d y e a r and f o u r t h y e a r , and i f you pass those w i t h good marks, not o n l y w i l l we l e t you i n t o t h e program, w e ' l l g i v e you some c r e d i t f o r t h a t . "  I:  Graduate C r e d i t s .  CR:  G r a d u a t e C r e d i t s . Not d e f i n i n g how many o r any o f t h o s e k i n d s o f t h i n g s . And meanwhile, you see we come back, w i t h no money, and we get caught i n t h i s s i t u a t i o n where we were t r y i n g t o r e n t a p l a c e ,  -  135  -  knowing f u l l w e l l by t h i s t i m e we want to l i v e i n K i t s i l a n o - we know where we want t o l i v e . And k n o c k i n g on doors and s a y i n g , "we want to r e n t your p l a c e , " and t h e y say, " w e l l have you got a j o b ? " And we s a y , " w e l l no, we don't have a j o b because we don't have a p l a c e ! " And t h e y say, "I'm s o r r y i f you don't have a j o b you c a n ' t have t h i s p l a c e . " A c a t c h 22 number, you s e e . S o r t of l i k e , by South A f r i c a we knew what d i s c r i m i n a t i o n was a l l a b o u t , o n l y t h e r e i s d i s c r i m i n a t i o n a g a i n s t us i n t h i s s c e n e . I mean e v e n t u a l l y we did, we got a p l a c e on 13th Avenue. And t h a t became a tremendous p a r t y house. And C. got a v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g j o b as a bookkeeper f o r E r i c k s o n - M a s s e y . And i t j u s t , i t was f a n t a s t i c . So anyway, o f f I went back t o u n i v e r s i t y . C. s u p p o r t e d me a g a i n , and we are p l a y i n g as a g r a d s t u d e n t and so on and we used to have t h e s e F r i d a y a f t e r n o o n , l a t e F r i d a y a f t e r n o o n hockey games. C. used t o come out t h e r e and she used to p l a y hockey and got i n v o l v e d w i t h t h a t and so she was v e r y , v e r y much i n v o l v e d w i t h the u n i v e r s i t y s c e n e . So I can s t i l l see J.U.R. who was the o l d f a t h e r of Geography out t h e r e , ( b o t h t a l k at same t i m e ) . Here he i s on the l i n e w i t h C. who i s c a l l e d the C h i c k e n . He c a l l s her the C h i c k e n s t i l l to t h i s v e r y day. So I see him and he s a y s , how's the C h i c k e n ? And then we a l l go back i n the Grad C e n t r e , you s e e , and some of the p r o f s and s t u f f l i k e t h i s and we a l l s i t down and have few beer and the p a r t y would s t a r t from t h e r e and away i t would go. And so she was, you know, the second go-around w i t h u n i v e r s i t y and so on. She had t h i s w o r l d l y experience with t r a v e l l i n g . Not o n l y w o r l d l y e x p e r i e n c e and t r a v e l l i n g and a l l of the t h i n g s we had s e e n , b u t , as you b e g i n t o see those t h i n g s you have to b e g i n to put them i n t o some k i n d of c o n t e x t of p o l i t i c s , of economics of why p e o p l e a r e b e i n g e x p l o i t e d and a l l t h i s i s p a r t o f , wherever you s t o p p e d you ended up q u e s t i o n i n g t h o s e t h i n g s , you s e e , and so an e d u c a t i o n , and i n f o r m a l e d u c a t i o n was r e a l l y h a p p e n i n g . But she a l s o , a t the same t i m e began t o m i s s not h a v i n g a u n i v e r s i t y e d u c a t i o n . And i n f a c t e n r o l l e d i n a c o u p l e of c o u r s e s a t VCC. A p h i l o s o p h y c o u r s e was one of them. And an E n g l i s h c o u r s e . I c a n ' t remember what k i n d of E n g l i s h i t was but i t was l i k e a p h i l o s o p h y c o u r s e as w e l l . And l a t e r she went t o D.C. when we f i n a l l y moved out t o C. I t ' s at t h a t t i m e when I was f i n i s h i n g my M a s t e r s degree w h i c h was i n 1972. I n o t h e r words no one saw any e x p a n s i o n of them a t t h a t t i m e , t h e y had a l l been e s t a b l i s h e d and we r e a l l y d i d n ' t know what s o r t of dynamic was g o i n g t o take p l a c e . And of c o u r s e l a t e r , so t h i s i s by 1972, by 1975, 1974-75 t h e y s t a r t e d to mushroom. And the t h i n g r e a l l y caught on. But i t was r e a l l y a t t h a t s t a g e t h a t t h e y d i d n ' t . So h e r e I am, by t h i s t i m e p e o p l e l i k e N.R., he i s the c h a i r m a n of C C . and I say t o N., " f o r C h r i s t ' s sake h i r e me!" And he s a y s , "one, we don't have the f u n d s , the o t h e r we don't have the demands." And y e t on the o t h e r s i d e of i t I d i d n ' t want t o go back t o K. and r e a l l y n e i t h e r d i d C. So I end up w i t h a p a r t - t i m e j o b a t C.C.. Not t h a t I'd had any o t h e r o f f e r s ! (laughter) You know, t e a c h i n g one s e c t i o n , but a l l of a sudden t h a t c a r e e r was l a u n c h e d , I was i n . Then t h a t ' s when we s o r t of d e c i d e d t h a t we would s t a r t a f a m i l y .  - 136 I:  And C. was  s t i l l working f o r Massey-Erickson?  CR:  We used to go t h e r e too a f t e r work a t times and s i t around w i t h those guys. I used to e n j o y t h a t one t o o . And f i n a l l y , I s h o u l d n ' t say f i n a l l y , t h i s i s l i k e n i n e y e a r s l a t e r , C g e t s pregnant.  I:  And you guys had p l a n n e d t h a t f a i r l y w e l l , l i k e you've s a i d you'd thought about a f a m i l y .  CR:  Yeah. And we s o r t of s a i d , "yeah, l e t ' s go f o r i t , " not knowing what the f u t u r e would be and h o p i n g t h a t C C . would d e v e l o p and of c o u r s e i t d i d . Then i n '74 I was on f u l l time but p a r t t i m e , i n o t h e r words they d i d n ' t g i v e i t to you, you can have a l l t h o s e s e c t i o n s but we are not g o i n g t o c a l l you f u l l t i m e . J u s t i n case we e v e r have t o go back the o t h e r way. And so t h a t ' s when she became p r e g n a n t , and "we're t a k i n g a chance," you s e e . But t h e n we d e c i d e d once she becomes p r e g n a n t , how can we l i v e i n t h i s a p a r t m e n t , i t s time to buy a house. So we moved out to C. and I d i d n ' t have any money, but t h a t ' s when I went to my mother. My f a t h e r d i e d i n 1968, when I was i n E u r o p e . But he had a c o u p l e of s t r o k e s and s t u f f so I knew t h a t t h e r e was the p o t e n t i a l .  I:  I t wasn't a t o t a l  CR:  And so from the i n s u r a n c e my mother had some money l e f t over so she h e l p e d us out w i t h $15,000. And I guess we'd saved f o u r o r f i v e o r something. And t h e n we got a $25,000 mortgage f o r the house. Just a cheap house, i n C. But t h e n t h e r e i t i s , we c o u l d t h e n have t h i s f a m i l y . What happened though i s a g a i n w i t h J . C. had an e x t r e m e l y bad pregnancy. She was i n bed f o r f o u r months. And J . was two months p r e m a t u r e , he a r r i v e d on C h r i s t m a s day. But she was l a y i n g i n bed f o r f o u r months, and I'd t e a c h , and I'd come home and I'd do e v e r y t h i n g . And t h a t was r e a l l y t o u g h .  I:  So i t was not a w o n d e r f u l e x p e r i e n c e , the pregnancy s o m e t h i n g t h a t you would remember. ...  CR:  No. But i t was something t h a t we had r e a l l y s h a r e d though. And t h e n of c o u r s e out of t h a t J . became r e a l l y a s p e c i a l c h i l d , because as a premy t h e y s t i l l d i d n ' t even t e l l us we were g o i n g to be out of the woods. So we go i n t o the i n t e n s i v e c a r e ward f o r I guess t e n days b e f o r e he c o u l d even come out of t h e r e . But as I s a y , out of t h a t h a r d s h i p i n many ways o f t e n comes a c l o s e r r e l a t i o n s h i p . And so t h a t was a l l w e l l and good. I t h i n k what has happened, t h i s September we've been m a r r i e d 19 y e a r s .  I:  What was  CR:  S e p t . 1965. B u t , out of C , we j u s t c o u l d n ' t h a n d l e b e i n g i n C. any more and we b o t h came to t h a t r e a l i z a t i o n f a i r l y q u i c k l y . But I d i d n ' t know where t o go. So t h a t a g a i n , by a s e r i e s o f , more by  that  surprise.  was  not  i t '65, because you g r a d u a t e d i n 1965.  -  137  -  a c c i d e n t t h a n by d e s i g n , we ended up h e r e . On 0. Road. And t h e n a g a i n , much changes o v e r t i m e . As I began t o get i n t o 0. Road I s t a r t e d t e a c h i n g more about e n v i r o n m e n t a l i s s u e s and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s , i n p a r t i c u l a r about e n e r g y , s o l a r . But I t r a p p e d m y s e l f a t 0. Road because what I d i d i s t h a t I l o c a t e d the house r i g h t i n the m i d d l e of the woods because a f t e r b e i n g i n where you are cheek by j o w l you want to get r i g h t i n t o the woods. U n f o r t u n a t e l y I'd put m y s e l f too c l o s e t o the p a r k i n g l o t and a l l the woods weren't m i n e , ( l a u g h t e r ) You can o n l y chop down so many of the t r e e s and so I c o u l d n ' t r e a l l y get the sun i n t h e r e . I was q u i t e w i l l i n g t o m o d i f y the house, so t h a t and the o t h e r s i d e of i t was t h a t by 1979 I a l r e a d y had the f e a r t h a t t h e r e was g o i n g t o be a c o l l a p s e , t o t a l bank f a i l u r e , the d e p r e s s i o n we are i n . And I t o l d t h i s to a number of p e o p l e i n c l u d i n g C.'s b r o t h e r who i s q u i t e i n v o l v e d i n the s t o c k m a r k e t . " L i s t e n I d o n ' t want to be the p r o p h e t of doom, but my f e e l i n g i s from a number of s o u r c e s t h a t I've been l i s t e n i n g t o l o o k , b a i l out of t h i n g s t h a t you can get out o f , " and i t kept g o i n g up u n t i l 1980, 1981, I t s t a r t e d g o i n g down. And i n t h a t t i m e , two t h i n g s , one not o n l y d i d I want to get something s o l a r and b u i l d i t m y s e l f , but two, I wanted t o get out of the mortgage. And I d i d by s e l l i n g t h a t p l a c e o f f . The market was s t i l l g o i n g up and I s o l d i t . I c o u l d have s o l d i t f o r more, no d o u b t , but you n e v e r l o o k upon t h a t one because i f I'd h e l d on any l o n g e r I m i g h t have s t i l l been t h e r e , have s t i l l had a mortgage and s t u f f l i k e t h a t . So I was a b l e to s e l l out of t h a t , buy t h i s p r o p e r t y , and a g a i n the burden f e l l t o C. t o do e v e r y t h i n g i n terms of once I s t a r t e d b u i l d i n g t h i s house. T o t a l l y l o o k i n g a f t e r the k i d s , t o t a l l y r u n the house - w h i c h we r e n t e d down i n L. And so I was w o r k i n g and b u i l d i n g a t the same t i m e . But t h e n l i k e I s a y I t h i n k t h a t b r i n g s us up t o where we are t o d a y . I:  And  then you had  your d a u g h t e r come i n t o the m i d d l e of a l l t h i s ?  CR:  Yes, M. We had M. I t h i n k i t ' s , she have to s u b t r a c t , ( l a u g h t e r )  I:  In nineteen-seventy,  CR:  S e v e n t y - s e v e n , ya t h a t ' s r i g h t . And t h e n we d e c i d e d t h a t was i t f o r k i d s . And the o t h e r t h i n g t h a t happened, I t h i n k f o r b o t h of u s , but me more i m p o r t a n t l y t h a n anybody, i s t h a t I've s t i l l got t h a t t r a v e l bug. So a f t e r t e a c h i n g f o r two t e r m s , when i t comes t o l i k e the s p r i n g , end of A p r i l , I s t a r t t h i n k i n g , hey, and s t a r t p l a n n i n g f o r the next e v e n t s . When you have k i d s , you've got to be w i t h i n c e r t a i n bounds. A g a i n , t h e y don't have to be l i t e r a l l y t h a t r e f i n e d , but I r a n a f i e l d - t r i p c o u r s e t o E u r o p e , where C. and J . came; J . was 5 months o l d . So I mean . . .  I:  You  . . . well,  were a b l e to work i t o u t .  should  be s i x i n A u g u s t , I  77.  - 138  -  CR:  Yeah. And t h a t was a n o t h e r tremendous e x p e r i e n c e . And we d i d i t as a f a m i l y . I'd thought of d o i n g o t h e r f i e l d t r i p c o u r s e s but I t h i n k i t ' s too tough o f t e n w i t h two k i d s . Because I won't do a f i e l d t r i p c o u r s e w i t h o u t t a k i n g e v e r y b o d y . And we are a c t u a l l y w o r k i n g on one next to go to J a p a n and we might s t i l l do i t but i t won't be f o r a few more y e a r s I'm s u r e . We've t a k e n the k i d s a c r o s s Canada, camping up i n t o the Yukon and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s , so I've s t i l l got t h a t t r a v e l t h i n g . But next y e a r i t s g o i n g to be a m a j o r t r i p , we're g o i n g to go f o r f o u r months.  I:  G r e a t yeah, so t h a t whole scene i s j u s t c a r r i e d  CR:  Ya,  I:  Whereas I f you'd gone by y o u r s e l f you wouldn't have e x p e r i e n c e d i t t o g e t h e r and you would have been two d i f f e r e n t p l a c e s m e n t a l l y altogether.  CR:  That's r i g h t . I t h i n k also i t s developing each o t h e r out of t h i s t h a t . . .  i t repeats  on.  itself.  a c e r t a i n respect  for  They are not done i n terms of l i k e i t ' s a f a i t a c c o m p l i . They a r e u s u a l l y j u s t d i s c u s s e d i n one way or a n o t h e r . And I t h i n k i n d i v i d u a l s , or k i d s even, have t o have a c e r t a i n amount of t o l e r a n c e , o t h e r w i s e y o u ' l l always end up, l i k e t h e r e i s a c o n f l i c t s i t u a t i o n , and I t h i n k t h a t ' s s o m e t h i n g we have always t r i e d t o avoid. I s t h a t k i n d of c o n f l i c t . Because t h e r e i s always ways of d o i n g t h i n g s . Always ways of d o i n g t h i n g s . I:  So l o o k i n g f o r ways of d e a l i n g w i t h s i t u a t i o n s w i t h o u t d e e p l y conflicted . . .  CR:  Yeah.  I:  How you  CR:  I t h i n k i t s j u s t a r e s p e c t f o r each o t h e r . That's a b a s i c . We've been t h r o u g h so many, so much, had so many e x p e r i e n c e s and i t s j u s t ... i t j u s t comes down t o r e s p e c t . I t h i n k t h a t ' s , t h a t ' s the main l i n e .  I:  What about when C. was g o i n g t o s c h o o l , you then when J . came a l o n g t h a t ended.  CR:  T h a t ' s r i g h t . Those were good c o u r s e s t h o u g h , God I t h i n k I l e a r n e d as much as C. l e a r n e d . I'd n e v e r t a k e n a p h i l o s o p h y c o u r s e and she was i n t o a l l t h e s e d i f f e r e n t p h i l o s o p h e r s so we'd discuss w h a t e v e r was the e s s a y t o p i c . She had to do the e s s a y t o p i c e v e r y week o r two weeks or whatever the h e l l i t was. Oh, j u s t g r e a t d i s c u s s i o n ! And she'd t e l l me what the guy had s a i d a t the u n i v e r s i t y or c o l l e g e and I'd g e t my t w o - b i t s i n and she would get  do you manage t h a t ? How do you are f a i r l y t o l e r a n t , ...  t h i n k i t happens?  L i k e you  said i t started  say  and  - 139 her t w o - b i t s i n and somehow t h e e s s a y would of them would end up as A's as w e l l . But I i f you r e a l l y put the e f f o r t i n - i t ' s j u s t under t h e gun t o t r y and g e t good marks t o Out o f 12 c o u r o e s I g o t n i n e A ' s , t h e o t h e r I'd n e v e r done t h a t b e f o r e t h a t ' s f o r s u r e .  mature, o f c o u r s e a l l guess as w i t h a n y t h i n g l i k e when I was put g e t i n t o my m a s t e r s . ones were damn c l o s e ,  I:  There i s one t h i n g t h a t I wanted t o go back t o , way back. You s a i d t h a t when you guys f i r s t s t a r t e d g o i n g o u t , b e f o r e you even g o t t o g e t h e r , was i t a s i t u a t i o n where you knew one a n o t h e r , j u s t s o r t of C. was a k i d around town s o r t o f t h i n g ?  CR:  No.  I:  Were you s o r t o f g o i n g out t o g e t h e r r i g h t away, o r d i d you know each o t h e r as f r i e n d s a t t h e b e g i n n i n g ?  CR:  What happened was t h a t t h i s f r i e n d o f mine W.N., I guess he was g r o w i n g up w i t h D.S. D.S. was C.'s b e s t f r i e n d , and so anyway, we ended up m e e t i n g up a t a b o w l i n g a l l e y i s what i t came down t o . So I t h i n k I a s k e d h e r out o r s o m e t h i n g . On t h e weekend we went one or two weekends o r something l i k e t h i s and t h e n t h e r e was a b i t o f a f a l l i n g out o r s o m e t h i n g , she p r o b a b l y thought she c o u l d g e t something f a r b e t t e r . Oh y a , she was g o i n g around w i t h t h e mayor's son f o r a w h i l e .  I:  Oh r e a l l y , oh wow.  CR:  E x a c t l y , e x a c t l y , i t was something t h a t , when you a r e g o i n g t o s c h o o l , I don't know, maybe because i t s so l o n g ago I c a n ' t remember t h a t w e l l . You a r e g o i n g t o s c h o o l and you a r e l o o k i n g f o r w a r d t o the weekend and the weekend i s always a p a r t y . W h i l e you went out w i t h t h a t i n d i v i d u a l you a r e r e a l l y w i t h the g r o u p .  I:  Yeah,  CR:  I t wasn't l i k e i t was a heavy d a t e where you b o t h went o f f t o some s e c l u d e d a r e a . I t was always l i k e a p a r t y . "Where're you g o i n g ? I ' l l see you t h e r e , " and t h a t k i n d o f s t u f f .  I:  You s a i d y o u were 17? Grade 11 o r 12 o r something? C o u p l e of y e a r s o f h i g h s c h o o l w o r t h o f d o i n g t h e d a t i n g t h i n g . And t h e n y o u went t o u n i v e r s i t y f o r two y e a r s , b e f o r e you g o t m a r r i e d ?  CR:  Yeah.  I:  So you knew each o t h e r f o r a t l e a s t f o u r y e a r s .  CR:  Oh y e a h , oh s u r e .  I:  You've known each o t h e r c l o s e t o 25 y e a r s . That's a l o t of h i s t o r y .  How d i d y o u compete eh?  right.  - 140  -  CR:  I've It's  known her l o n g e r than I h a v e n ' t . T h a t ' s r i g h t i t i s a l o t . r e a l l y , i t ' s been a l o n g t i m e . But a good t i m e you know.  I:  You had done a l o t b e f o r e you had k i d s , and h a v i n g k i d s r e a l l y changes your l i f e a l o t as you know because i t , w e l l i t j u s t changes y o u r l i v i n g p a t t e r n s t o t a l l y . P l u s you had a s t r e s s f u l p r e g n a n c y time and s t u f f , but i t sounds l i k e t h a t went p r e t t y s m o o t h l y r e g a r d l e s s , i n f a c t even maybe drew you a b i t c l o s e r because of the . . .  CR:  Yeah. I t h i n k so. I t h i n k i t ' s j u s t l i k e you go t h r o u g h s t r e s s f u l s i t u a t i o n s o f t e n from the e x t e r i o r e n v i r o n m e n t , whether i t ' s t r a v e l l i n g i n a f o r e i g n c o u n t r y o r whatever c r i s i s t h a t comes down, as I say, a bad pregnancy or whatever i t might be. But y e a h , I t h i n k what happens i s t h a t s i n c e you go t h r o u g h those t h i n g s not s i n g l y , l i k e , a l l the q u e s t i o n s are o n l y w i t h i n y o u r o w n s e l f , t h a t you are a b l e to s h a r e those t h i n g s . I t h i n k t h a t ' s j u s t something t h a t we've a c c o m p l i s h e d . That as each e x t e r n a l s i t u a t i o n happens, s t r e s s f u l , o r c r i s i s o r j u s t d e c i s i o n s g e n e r a l l y , i s t h a t what has happened i s t h a t we have been a b l e to make t h o s e d e c i s i o n s , I t h i n k as a u n i t , and I t h i n k t h a t ' s r e a l l y h e l p e d .  I:  So you  CR:  And i t ' s the same l i k e , e x a c t l y , even the way I am r i g h t now. I've t a k e n on more and more t h i n g s , so t h a t even t h i s whole p o l i t i c a l t h i n g t h a t I've done up h e r e , I c o u l d n ' t have done t h a t w i t h o u t , I mean I d i d n ' t do t h a t w i t h o u t t a l k i n g t o C. That d e c i s i o n w i l l have to come up a g a i n s i n c e the e l e c t i o n comes up i n November a g a i n . And so now we've got the assessment of h a v i n g had two y e a r s of d o i n g t h a t , and we can see the amount of t i m e t h a t i t t a k e s t o do i t , t h a t t h e n we w i l l have t o make t h a t d e c i s i o n as a f a m i l y u n i t . I t ' s r e a l l y r e w a r d i n g i n terms of s a t i s f a c t i o n of making d e c i s i o n s and a l l t h o s e k i n d s of t h i n g s and b e i n g i n v o l v e d w i t h the k i n d of d e c i s i o n s t h a t e f f e c t e v e r y b o d i e s l i f e . Not s a t i s f y i n g i n terms of any money. But i t ' s been a g r e a t e x p e r i e n c e because I can use the e x p e r i e n c e I've had w i t h p o l i t i c s i n teaching. But somewhere one has to say, i s t h a t then more and more a t the expense of t i m e w i t h the k i d s ? And t h e r e i s no q u e s t i o n i t i s a t the expense of the k i d s ' t i m e . I t ' s j u s t whether you can do a l l t h o s e o t h e r t h i n g s as w e l l as the k i d s not f e e l i n g t h a t t h e y ' v e been r e a l l y c h e a t e d of t i m e . I t h i n k as J . g e t s o l d e r and M. g e t s o l d e r t h a t t h e y too w i l l become p a r t of the d e c i s i o n m a k i n g process. I don't know i f you've seen - no you h a v e n ' t - I ' l l show you the k i d s ' bedrooms u p s t a i r s - t h e y d e s i g n e d what t h e y wanted f o r t h e i r bedrooms and I b u i l t i t . I t came out of t h e i r t a l k i n g about t h i n g s l i k e J u n g l e J i m o r s o m e t h i n g . But t h e y a l s o wanted bunkbeds t o s l e e p i n . But when you q u e s t i o n them they r e a l l y b o t h want to s l e e p i n the upper bunk. So t h e y have i t . There's a l o t of o t h e r t h i n g s they wanted i n t h e r e . They wanted to come down a f i r e p o l e , s t u f f l i k e t h i s , and he does. But he wanted a l s o a s l i d e , the s l i d e s h o u l d go f r o m up t h e r e t o r i g h t down here i n the  l o o k to one  another f o r . . .  - 141 l i v i n g room. (laughter) I between C. and f o u r of us i n  -  But you do have to draw the l i n e somewhere! t h i n k what has happened i s t h a t the r e l a t i o n s h i p m y s e l f has grown now i n t o a r e l a t i o n s h i p between the terms of the k i n d of d e c i s i o n s t h a t are b e i n g made.  I:  And C , I know t h a t C. i s not t o t a l l y , she, she knows what i s g o i n g on p o l i t i c a l l y , what y o u ' r e d e a l i n g w i t h . I t ' s not something t h a t you go o f f and do. You come home and you t a l k about i t and d e a l with i t ?  CR:  The t r u t h of the m a t t e r i s t h a t C. has become more p o l i t i c a l . You know how some p e o p l e a r e s o r t of l i k e t h e y ' r e the v i s u a l s i d e of t h i n g s , you can s o r t of see them and t h e y r e p r e s e n t some p o l i t i c a l t h i n g s and t h e n t h e r e i s the background p e o p l e who do a l l the w r i t i n g , do a l l the ( i n a u d i b l e ) . There i t i s , you s e e . I think we've got more l e t t e r s coming f r o m p e o p l e l i k e B i l l B e n n e t t and P i e r r e Trudeau i n t h i s house as r e t u r n m a i l from what C. has w r i t t e n about - f r o m i s s u e s t h a t I t h i n k r e a l l y a f f e c t e v e r y b o d y . From n u c l e a r disarmament to s i m p l y z o n i n g and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s t h a t a f f e c t our l i v e s .  I:  Yeah, I guess t o me i t seems t h a t the i m p o r t a n t t h i n g i s t h a t i t ' s not j u s t something t h a t you j u s t go o f f and do . . .  CR:  No,  I:  I t happens l o t s and t h a t ' s where t h i n g s s t a r t t o , I guess f a l l a p a r t , or where the i n t e r e s t s become so d i f f e r e n t t h a t you s t a r t d r i f t i n t o d i f f e r e n t d i r e c t i o n s I guess.  that's r i g h t , i t d e f i n i t e l y  isn't.  to  CR:  W e l l , t h a t ' s what I s a i d as the k i d s came a l o n g . Now we a r e a u n i t of f o u r , and we p l a n h o l i d a y s and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s , I've got t h i s g r e a t t r i p p l a n n e d f o r next y e a r but I am a l r e a d y t e s t i n g i t t a l k i n g t o the k i d s . "Now how do you t h i n k about g o i n g h e r e , " and stuff like this. I mean, we're g o i n g t o go where I want to go! I j u s t want t o make s u r e t h a t t h e y u n d e r s t a n d why. (laughs) But a l s o the key element i s of c o u r s e t h a t C. wants to do t h i s t r i p too, ...  I:  That's g r e a t , you d i d g r e a t , you a l l the way t h r o u g h .  CR:  I think i n cycles.  I:  Yeah, so y o u r l i f e has gone i n , I d o n ' t know, what i t i s , f i v e y e a r c y c l e s , t h r e e y e a r c y c l e s , s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . There has been some s o r t of change t h a t o c c u r s e v e r y once i n a w h i l e .  CR:  Yeah. That's  I:  T h a t ' s g r e a t , I don't have a n y t h i n g i n on. Thanks.  s t a r t e d at the b e g i n i n g  and  went  right. p a r t i c u l a r t h a t I want  filled  -  142  -  INTERVIEW #3 I:  P l e a s e r e f l e c t on your m a r r i a g e and t h e n t e l l me the s t o r y of y o u r e x p e r i e n c e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . You may want to g i v e me an o u t l i n e of the s a t i s f a c t i o n i n your m a r r i a g e from the b e g i n n i n g u n t i l now o r you m i g h t l i k e to d e s c r i b e v i g n e t t e s of e x p e r i e n c e t h a t t y p i f y the s a t i s f a c t i o n you f e e l .  CR:  I j u s t had an i d e a . I t h i n k what p e o p l e would see or u n d e r s t a n d as s a t i s f y i n g o r not s a t i s f y i n g , u n s a t i s f y i n g , i s d e t e r m i n e d perhaps by the way t h e y got i n t o the m a r r i a g e . The s t a t e of mind, the maturity. I t j u s t o c c u r r e d t o me, t o say i t o c c u r r e d to me i s s i l l y , but I was t h i r t y when I got m a r r i e d and I t h i n k t h a t made a r e a l d i f f e r e n c e . P. was 26. I d o n ' t t h i n k I went i n t o m a r r i a g e blindly. I knew what I was g e t t i n g i n t o . C e r t a i n l y I couldn't f o r e s e e f i n a n c i a l problems the way t h e y came up o r o t h e r problems t h a t were imposed on us from the o u t s i d e — m o t h e r - i n - l a w p r o b l e m s — I don't want to go i n t o t h a t . But I d i d n ' t have any i l l u s i o n s about my own f e e l i n g s waxing and w a n i n g .  I:  So you d e c i d e d t o get m a r r i e d ,  CR:  I knew, I e x p e c t e d t h a t my f e e l i n g s would go and come. And t h e n t h e r e were d r o u g h t s .  I:  I wonder why  CR:  From my e x p e r i e n c e w i t h o t h e r g i r l s b e f o r e . I d i d n ' t e x p e c t to be on c l o u d n i n e a l l the t i m e . I wasn't on c l o u d n i n e on my wedding day,, you know, the s u p p o s e d l y h a p p i e s t day i n one's l i f e , a t l e a s t most women t h i n k s o . I was happy, but I know l e t ' s c e l e b r a t e t o d a y and w e ' l l see what happens tomorrow. S a t i s f a c t i o n . . . perhaps on my d e a t h bed and I l o o k back on my m a r r i a g e and I have time t o r e f l e c t and I'm not too o l d and too f e e b l e I ' l l say "ya t h a t was good". You know, t h a t you c o u l d say i n the end i t was good. But somewhere i n between t o say i t ' s good, I t h i n k i t ' s too soon to say t h a t . But as you s a i d b e f o r e t h e r e are moments when i t ' s good and moments when ...  I:  Y e s , i t doesn't c o n t i n u e , l i k e you s a i d , i t s not b l i s s a l l the time and you were k i n d of e x p e c t i n g t h a t when you got m a r r i e d because of y o u r age you s a i d .  CR:  And P. I was s u r p r i s e d she . . . j u s t r e c e n t l y we t a l k e d about i t ... she s a i d , " I e x p e c t e d my f e e l i n g s t o be always the same," and I s a i d , " I d o n ' t b e l i e v e you." She s a i d y e s . Then of c o u r s e the f e e l i n g s went and she went i n t o s h o c k . But she had had b o y f r i e n d s b e f o r e and she t h o u g h t oh maybe i t ' s not the r i g h t guy because my f e e l i n g s went f o r something l i k e t h a t . You read i n books t h a t f e e l i n g s go but you t h i n k , oh, t h a t happens to someone e l s e . I t d o e s n ' t happen t o me, when I l o v e someone, I l o v e him a l l the time. W e l l , i t n e v e r happened to me t h a t I l o v e d them a l l the t i m e  you  expected  you  figured . . . come and  go  and  that?  -  143  -  and I began to t h i n k about what l o v e i s a l l a b o u t . E r i c Fromm's book The A r t of L o v i n g r e a l l y , r e a l l y h e l p e d me. I read f t y e a r s b e f o r e I got m a r r i e d but i t always s t u c k w i t h me. And I t h i n k he h e l p e d me mature. I:  Can  you  t e l l me  a b i t about t h a t , what i t was,  what t h a t . . .  CR:  W e l l , he s a i d t h a t ah, he's v e r y much a g a i n s t r o m a n t i c l o v e as a s u p p o r t i v e b a s i s f o r a m a r r i a g e and I s t i l l remember t h a t t h e r e are moments, I t h i n k i t was Fromm, or maybe R o l l o May. But Fromm says t h a t t h e r e are f e e l i n g s t h a t sometimes you have to do i t by s h e e r w i l l power, by s h e e r d e t e r m i n a t i o n . That l o v e i s not a f e e l i n g but i t ' s an a c t i v i t y , i t ' s d e c i d i n g t o c a r e , d e c i d i n g , i t ' s a d e c i s i o n . And I wasn't q u i t e happy w i t h t h a t . I t ' s a l l w i l l power, t h a t c a n ' t be q u i t e r i g h t . But I f o u n d t h e r e are moments and s t r e t c h e s and days and months where you go day by day, you s a y t o d a y I d e c i d e t o l o v e my w i f e . I d i d t h a t f o r a l o n g t i m e , however, I d i d n ' t l i k e t h a t , I d i d n ' t l i k e the f e e l i n g of not b e i n g i n l o v e , you know, ommission of romance, r o m a n t i c f e e l i n g s and I d i d n ' t know what t o do about i t . And I don't know how i t happened, what l e t me on to t h i s , I guess t h i n k i n g about i t . I s a i d , "I'm not s e e i n g s o m e t h i n g r i g h t , " 'cause r o m a n t i c l o v e i s n ' t a l l t h e r e i s , we a l l know t h a t so t h a t so t h a t ' s . . . t h e r e a r e e x p e r i e n c e s so t h e r e must be, i t must be the f a c t . So o l d e r c o u p l e s t h a t are h o l d i n g hands t h a t we s e e , why are t h e y s t i l l h o l d i n g hands. Is i t r o m a n t i c l o v e or i s i t something e l s e t h a t came way a f t e r . And I was b o t h e r e d by . . . say when P's h a i r wasn't n i c e , "oh, I w i s h she would f i x her h a i r . " Stuff l i k e this would b o t h e r me, I want her to l o o k p r e t t y a l l the t i m e . Or, "what k i n d of s t u f f i s she w e a r i n g t o d a y , oh t h a t l o o k s a w f u l . " It s h o u l d n ' t m a t t e r , but i t does and s t i l l does even now, I a d m i t t h i s . L i t t l e t h i n g s i n l i f e , two p e o p l e j u s t l i v i n g t o g e t h e r , h a b i t s , p e r s o n a l h a b i t s . I t s t a r t s to get to you. And t h e n you s a y , w e l l , t h e r e ' s two w o r l d s h e r e t h a t d e c i d e d to come t o g e t h e r and. . . . w e l l I'm g o i n g to jump f i r s t to how I s o l v e d t h i s p r o b l e m . And I s t a r t e d l o o k i n g , I t h o u g h t , w a i t a m i n u t e maybe I'm not s e e i n g P. p r o p e r l y . L e t ' s s i t back and s t a r t l o o k i n g , l o o k i n g , t r y i n g t o l o o k deeper w i t h a d i f f e r e n t eye s o r t of w i t h a, p e o p l e say mind's eye, eye of the h e a r t , to see the r e a l p e r s o n t h a t ' s b u r i e d b e h i n d a l l t h e s e s u p e r f i c i a l i t i e s and h a b i t s and c u l t u r a l c o n d i t i o n i n g s and i n t e l l e c t u a l c o n d i t i o n i n g s , b r a i n w a s h i n g s — w h o i s r e a l l y b e h i n d a l l t h i s ? And t h a t a t t i t u d e r e a l l y s t a r t e d to h e l p me and I l a i d a c o m p l e t e l y new f o u n d a t i o n f o r l o v e . And not o n l y does i t r e f l e c t and h e l p me w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e I meet i n l i f e , you know, I s t i l l make the same s t u p i d m i s t a k e s but I know t h a t t h e r e ' s a way around t h e s e m i s t a k e s , t h a t t h e r e ' s a way beyond the s u p e r f i c i a l i t i e s . We a l l know t h i s i n t h e o r y i n c o u n s e l l i n g but we n e v e r a p p l y i t v e r y much. We a l l know t h e r e ' s more b e h i n d t h i s p e r s o n , b e h i n d you, b e h i n d me. But somehow i t comes f r e e l y and i t g o e s . And I s a y , "oh t h a t j e r k or t h a t dumb b r o a d " , so we w r i t e them o f f , as human b e i n g s e v e n , you know, not even w a n t i n g to be b o t h e r e d and t h e n we m i s s t h a t w h i c h we have i n common, which i s  -  144  -  most of i t , most of i t we have i n common. So I s t a r t e d j u s t l o o k i n g , as W I c h e n s t e i n s a y s , " l o o k , don't t h i n k " . And t h a t i s so t r u e , j u s t s t a r t l o o k i n g . I t h i n k P. was g o i n g t h r o u g h a c r i s i s t o o , she was b o t h e r e d by the same t h i n g s . We never t o l d each o t h e r t h a t because i t ' s s o r t of a d i c e y s i t u a t i o n , "hey T. I don't l o v e you any more," o r , "P. I don't have the same f e e l i n g s f o r you" and, you know, goodbye. That d i d not happen, the end d i d not come. I f i n d the moment when p e o p l e t e l l e a c h , " I don't l o v e you any more w i t h my f e e l i n g s , my emotions the way I u s e d , " I t h i n k t h a t ' s the moment when r e a l l o v e can b e g i n . I t ' s f r i g h t e n i n g to admit t h a t t o each other. A l o t of p e o p l e w a l k out and l o o k f o r more romance. I:  Can  you  t e l l me  how  f a r i n t o your marriage that  occurred.  CR:  For m y s e l f I was aware of i t r i g h t from the b e g i n n i n g , even b e f o r e , I d i d n ' t e x p e c t my f e e l i n g s t o l a s t . As f o r P., she s o r t of went t o s l e e p and she awoke about two y e a r s ago. She had the courage to admit t o h e r s e l f t h a t the f e e l i n g s weren't the same. And then she t o l d me; she had more g u t s than I . But I had been w o r k i n g on i t so I went t h r o u g h p e r i o d s when I f e l t v e r y s t r o n g l y f o r her and p e r i o d s when I f e l t n o t h i n g . But s i n c e we have been communicating t h e s e problems of our r o m a n t i c f e e l i n g s towards one a n o t h e r I t h i n k we have r e a l l y made g r e a t l e a p s i n our m a r r i a g e . Once you have made—I'm not c r a z i l y i n l o v e w i t h you any more, t h e n you say, w e l l what i s i t t h a t keeps us t o g e t h e r . That i s the l o v e t h a t perhaps E r i c Fromm t a l k e d a b o u t , t h a t ' s the l o v e I always wanted. I t ' s a l o v e t h a t i s not 'me' o r i e n t e d . 'Cause r o m a n t i c l o v e i s e s s e n t i a l l y very s e l f i s h . I am i n l o v e . Never mind I l o v e you, i t ' s what I f e e l . And I want t o get out of t h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p , I want t o be b l i s s f u l l y happy because y o u ' r e w i t h me and y o u ' r e so p r e t t y . But I don't want to g i v e you a n y t h i n g . I j u s t want you to make me happy. So t h a t ' s r o m a n t i c l o v e I t h i n k . And then you do a l l k i n d s of s t u f f j u s t to get more, you make g i f t s and t h i s and t h a t and you f l a t t e r j u s t t o maybe keep t h a t p o s s e s s i o n , t h a t p i e c e of h a p p i n e s s . J u s t l i k e a p i e c e of g o l d , e v e r y day you k i n d s h i n e it a bit.  I:  So you got t o a p o i n t , you s a i d you were k i n d of p r e p a r e d f o r i t anyway because I guess maybe you were l o o k i n g a t i t r e a l i s t i c a l l y , but the i l l u s i o n s of m a r r i a g e , and l o v e and r o m a n c e — t h a t i l l u s i o n s o r t of d i s s o l v e d and the r e a l i t y was t h e r e and t h e n you found ways to d e a l w i t h t h a t .  CR:  W e l l I found t h a t was a weakness w i t h i n m y s e l f , not b e i n g a b l e t o love s e l f l e s s l y . I d o n ' t want to overdo t h i s s e l f l e s s b u s i n e s s , I don't want t o be a m a r t y r . Some p e o p l e say t h e r e s h o u l d be n o t h i n g i n i t f o r me, a l l s e l f l e s s g i v i n g . But I t o l d P. even b e f o r e I m a r r i e d h e r , I s a i d , " l i s t e n , I don't know i f I can t r u l y l o v e you," and I knew about my weakness and I t h o u g h t i t was u n i q u e but now I know everybody has s e r i o u s problems w i t h i t . When one was young we t h i n k t h a t o n l y we have t h a t p r o b l e m , we a r e the o n l y one that s u f f e r s t h i s .  „I:  145 -  Can you t e l l me a l i t t l e b i t about P. communicating i t t o y o u . Sounds l i k e communication was a f a i r l y i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f i t because had you n o t , had n e i t h e r o f you s a i d a n y t h i n g i t c o u l d have j u s t  CR:  You c a n o n l y communicate what you a r e aware o f . So i f I had t o l d P. " I d o n ' t l o v e you," and she hadn't been aware of t h i s t h e way she was when she t o l d me I don't know how she would have h a n d l e d it. Whether she would have been ready f o r i t 'cause she was under the i l l u s i o n t h a t t h e r e ' s o n l y one k i n d o f l o v e , t h a t ' s r o m a n t i c l o v e , and l o v e and f e e l i n g s a r e synonymous. A l t h o u g h she d i d n ' t have t h o s e f e e l i n g s she s t i l l was under i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h i s i s t h e o n l y way i t i s . As I s a i d I wasn't happy w i t h t h e l o s s o f my blissful feelings either.  I:  How d i d t h i s then r e l a t e t o your d a y - t o - d a y g e t t i n g up i n t h e m o r n i n g , making b r e a k f a s t . . .  CR:  W e l l i t r e a l l y b o t h e r e d me, i t r e a l l y , r e a l l y b o t h e r e d me t h a t I d i d n ' t f e e l t h i s e x h u b e r a n c e . I was l o o k i n g f o r i t . E v e r y day I ' d l o o k a t h e r and I ' d s a y , " w e l l why i s i t t h a t I c a n ' t f e e l t h i s . " And I t h i n k i t had a l o t t o do w i t h t h e way she c a r r i e d h e r s e l f , you know she l e t h e r s e l f go a l i t t l e b i t . P e o p l e do t h a t i n m a r r i a g e , p r o b a b l y I d i d i t t o o . And s i n c e she awakened about two y e a r s ago she goes out and buys d r e s s e s , keeps h e r s e l f up. Her appearance has changed w h i c h may w h i c h makes i t , I h a t e t o admit t h i s t h a t I'm s u p e r f i c i a l , b u t t h a t s u r e l y h e l p s . And I t h i n k g o i n g o u t — b e i n g i n — c h a n g i n g t h e e n v i r o n m e n t and s p e n d i n g t i m e t o g e t h e r , b e i n g r o m a n t i c — g o t o p l a c e s t h a t you went t o when you were s i n g l e . We a l l t h i n k t h a t t h a t has t o s t o p ; now we don't go t o t h i s b a r , we don't go d a n c i n g anymore, we don't spend r o m a n t i c weekends t o g e t h e r , even t a k i n g a shower t o g e t h e r and s t u f f l i k e this. I t g e t s b u r i e d u n d e r n e a t h t h e r o u t i n e and e v e r y d a y l i f e . I t h i n k i t ' s work and I h a t e d t o admit t h a t m a r r i a g e i s work, i t i s work. I d o n ' t know what i t t a k e s t o b r e a k up t h e m a r r i a g e , I have an i d e a what i t c o u l d b e , b u t I t h i n k i f t h e r e was something i n t h e b e g i n n i n g , i f t h e p e o p l e r e a l l y l i k e d each o t h e r , I d i d n ' t s a y l o v e , I s a i d l i k e d , I t h i n k i t can be r e k i n d l e d a g a i n and a g a i n .  I:  But what's t h i s l i k e n e s s t h a t you a r e t a l k i n g  CR:  L i k e n e s s i s j u s t a s t e p below t h e r o m a n t i c e x u b e r a n c e , y o u s t i l l have t o l i k e t h e p e r s o n . I d o n ' t know, between male and f e m a l e , boy and g i r l I t h i n k t h a t t h e s e b o u n d a r i e s a r e f u z z y . Sometimes I wonder, why do I l i k e a man, why do I l i k e a man f o r a f r i e n d ? C e r t a i n l y i t ' s n o t r o m a n t i c , n o t t h a t I'm b e i n g t r i t e . So what i s i t t h e n . Why do I l i k e t h i s p e r s o n ? Why do I s e e woman always as s e x u a l , as a s e x r e l a t e d t h i n g . Why c a n ' t I j u s t l i k e a woman f o r a f r i e n d ? And I d o n ' t seem t o be a b l e t o do t h a t v e r y e a s i l y . And I t h i n k a l s o i t h e l p s t o see how o t h e r p e o p l e see y o u r s p o u s e . I f someone s a y s , "gee, you s u r e m a r r i e d a dog," probably the o n l y one who would be t h a t honest would be your enemy. I t h i n k  about.  - 146  -  e x p o s i n g y o u r s e l f to o t h e r p e o p l e , as c o u p l e s away from k i d s t a l k , l e t ' s say from c o u p l e t o c o u p l e t a l k , a d u l t t o a d u l t . Get the t e e t h i n g k i d s out of the way and don't t a l k about your k i d s and about the f a m i l y and about the house and about the new c a r but t a l k about what's g o i n g on b e t w e e n — r e l a t i o n s h i p s — e v e n i f i t gets a b i t d i c e y once i n a w h i l e , about what one d i s l i k e s about one a n o t h e r . S e e i n g y o u r spouse i n a d i f f e r e n t s i t u a t i o n . See how she behaves i n a g r o u p . I t h i n k you have to admire your husband or y o u r w i f e , I t h i n k t h a t h e l p s to remind o n e s e l f t h a t one m a r r i e d someone special. So I t h i n k t h a t a d m i r a t i o n f o r one a n o t h e r . Not fooling a d m i r a t i o n but t r u e a d m i r a t i o n f o r what the p e r s o n s t a n d s f o r , the v a l u e s t h e y have. I t h i n k v a l u e s i s a n o t h e r t h i n g , I t h i n k v a l u e s i s one of the b i g g e s t t h i n g s . The r e a s o n P. and I got t o g e t h e r because we d i s c u s s e d — t h e f i r s t t i m e we e v e r t a l k e d about s o m e t h i n g , I don't remember the c o n v e r s a t i o n , I h a v e n ' t much of a memory f o r d e t a i l s , I o n l y have a f e e l i n g t h a t r e m a i n e d . I would say i t had a p h i l o s o p h i c a l bend, d e f i n i t e l y . I d o n ' t remember the s u b j e c t , but i t was d e f i n i t e l y , what do you t h i n k , what do I t h i n k , what are our v a l u e s . And I don't know what a b o u t , r e a l l y , and t h a t d i d i t . I knew i t was about v a l u e s , I knew t h a t I wanted t o meet h e r a g a i n and I knew t h a t i f I e v e r met her a g a i n I was g o i n g to be very s e r i o u s . I:  So t h i s was  very  e a r l y i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p ?  CR:  F i r s t n i g h t . And the f i r s t d a t e I p i c k e d her up I knew I was g o i n g t o marry h e r . Of c o u r s e I d i d n ' t t e l l her t h a t . T h a t ' s how simple i t was. Then we went t h r o u g h the a g o n i z i n g p r o c e s s of g e t t i n g t o know each o t h e r w h i c h i s n ' t always t h a t , you know, i t ' s awkward. There were t i m e s when I t h o u g h t I c o u l d n ' t do i t . When I t h o u g h t , w e l l here my f e e l i n g s go, God, w i l l I e v e r l o v e anybody? Am I a b l e t o l o v e . I r e a l l y had t r o u b l e w i t h t h a t , d e c i d i n g t h a t , whether I was t r u l y c a p a b l e of l o v i n g someone, to ask someone to marry me and s t i c k t o i t . I t r e a l l y c o s t me a l o t of p a i n t o work t h a t o u t .  I:  What o t h e r e x p e r i e n c e s have you had a l o n g the s i m i l a r v a l u e s I n i t i a l l y you r e c o g n i z e d t h a t so t h a t must have been . . .  CR:  We h a t e d the same t h i n g s . I t h i n k t h a t ' s a good b a s i s to s t a r t . P e o p l e a r e always more aware of what t h e y d i s l i k e d , what they do not l i k e , the h a t r e d s of t h e i r d i s l i k e s . Sometimes i t ' s e a s i e r to f o c u s on, t o f i n d out what one d i s l i k e s . U s u a l l y we are v e r y d e f i n i t e about what we d i s l i k e . Much more vague about we l i k e .  I:  Because the s u b t l e s are g r e a t e r , a r e n ' t  CR:  We seem t o be vehement about t h i n g s t h a t d i s g u s t u s . Our v a l u e s , the t h i n g s t h t we agreed upon, l o o k i n g back now they haven't not r e a l l y changed v e r y much. I was more n e g a t i v e t h a n P. 'Cause of my background I g u e s s , b e i n g E u r o p e a n , N o r t h Americans seem to be more on an u p b e a t , more p o s i t i v e . But E u r o p e a n s , snob I would say, are more n a i v e . But be t h a t as i t may, I don't know i f i t ' s  line?  they?  - 147 n a i v e t y o r whether i t s j u s t s e e i n g l i f e from a c o m p l e t e l y d i f f e r e n t a n g l e . Europe has had h a r d t i m e s and seen much more h a r d s h i p and t h e memories a r e l o n g e r from g e n e r a t i o n t o g e n e r a t i o n . You know you g e t t h i s f e d f r o m your grandmother, t h i s moaning, a l o t o f moaning, t h e women moan a l o t , so you grow up as a k i d w i t h a much more n e g a t i v e o u t l o o k on l i f e and on p e o p l e . But I r e j o i c e i n the N.A. o u t l o o k t h a t P. b r o u g h t i n t o my l i f e and t h e people i n g e n e r a l , i t ' s much more u p b e a t , much h a p p i e r . I would almost l i k e to use t h e word gay but i t has bad c o n n o t a t i o n . I t h i n k my n e g a t i v e n e s s r e a l l y g o t P. down a l o t because I've been t o o n e g a t i v e . And t h a t was a b u r d e n on h e r , I'm s u r e , a t t i m e s . And j u s t r e c e n t l y , j u s t t h e l a s t few days e v e n , I r e a l i z e d t h a t how t r e m e n d o u s l y d i f f e r e n t the w o r l d s a r e even i f t h e y seem s i m i l a r when two p e o p l e g e t t o g e t h e r . How s l o w l y over t h e y e a r s we r e v e a l to each o t h e r t h e d i f f e r e n t u n i v e r s e t h a t we r e a l l y l i v e i n and i f anyone r e a l l y knew f r o m the b e g i n n i n g how d i f f e r e n t , how d i f f e r e n t we r e a l l y a r e , I d o n ' t t h i n k anybody would g e t m a r r i e d . But s i n c e we a r e i g n o r a n t we have an o p p o r t u n i t y t o work i t o u t . I f we knew e v e r y t h i n g t h a t c o u l d happen we would n e v e r t r y i t . I don't want to g i v e you t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t I t h i n k t h a t i t c o u l d n ' t be done but what I mean about d i f f e r e n t u n i v e r s e s g e t t i n g t o g e t h e r i s t h e s u b t l e t i e s i n t h i n k i n g and t h e s u b t l e t i e s of t h e e x p e r i e n c e s i n c h i l d h o o d . They can d i v i d e o r t h e y can e n r i c h t o o . I:  E s p e c i a l l y , I guess when you come f r o m d i f f e r e n t c u l t u r e s , i t ' s h e i g h t e n e d i s n ' t i t ? Even though t h e y ' r e Western c u l t u r e s i t ' s s t i l l different. So how d i d you d e a l w i t h t h a t ?  CR;  I wasn't aware o f them.  I:  The s u b t l e way o f t h i n k i n g , t h e s u b t l e way of s e e i n g  CR:  I t ' s almost i n d e s c r i b a b l e I guess i s n ' t i t , i t ' s j u s t a f e e l i n g . I t h i n k i t ' s p o s s i b l e among t h e same, w i t h i n t h e same c u l t u r e . I t ' s j u s t how t h e way you see a f l o w e r . One sees i t , t h e o t h e r one w a l k s p a s t i t . Maybe you b o t h see i t b u t you get- d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s out o f i t .  I:  So how d i d you two d e a l w i t h t h a t , the d i f f e r e n c e s ?  CR:  F o r t u n a t e l y , as I s a i d , we d i s l i k e d t h e same t h i n g s . So we d i s l i k e l a r g e crowds, we d i s l i k e g o i n g t o t h e Sea F e s t i v a l and w a t c h i n g t h e f i r e w o r k s , we d i s l i k e s n o b b i s h n e s s a l t h o u g h we may be p e r c e i v e d as snobs o u r s e l v e s . I guess we l i k e p e o p l e I n g e n e r a l who communicate and we d i s l i k e people who need t o wear a mask because i t t a k e s so much energy t o g e t t h r o u g h . Another problem i n our marriage i s , she has a l l t h e f r i e n d s and I have h a r d l y any. So h e r f r i e n d s a r e my f r i e n d s and I l i k e h e r f r i e n d s . They t r u l y become my f r i e n d s , m o s t l y women. And I f i n d I communicate b e t t e r w i t h women t h a n w i t h men, I t h i n k most men would say t h a t . Once you g e t p a s t t h e s u p e r f i c i a l i t y o f hockey and f o o t b a l l and t h e money m a r k e t , you know what men t a l k a b o u t , then they shy away and how do you make  I was aware of the b i g ones, the o b v i o u s . life.  - 148  -  r e a l l y t r u e f r i e n d s u n l e s s you meet them i n c h i l d h o o d and I d i d n ' t grow up h e r e . I'm r e a l l y g e t t i n g o f f the s u b j e c t I g u e s s . She s a y s , " a l l my f r i e n d s a r e y o u r f r i e n d s , how come you don't c o n t r i b u t e any of your own?" I work i n the t r a d e s . I'm not r e a l l y a tradesman a t h e a r t , and we don't have much i n common, the p e o p l e t h a t I work w i t h . I work w i t h them, t h a t ' s i t . I wouldn't ask them home f o r d i n n e r 'cause a l l we would t a l k about i s some s t u f f I'd r a t h e r l e a v e b e h i n d . I t ' s p o s s i b l e t h a t p r o f e s s o r s do t h a t t o o . But I l i k e t o put work away and t h e n s a y , "hey, what i s l i f e a l l about? Why a r e we h e r e , where a r e we g o i n g , what's t h i s s u f f e r i n g a l l a b o u t , what a r e t h e s e moments of j o y , what do t h e y teach us?" I:  So t h a t ' s where you and P. a r e s i m i l a r ?  GR:  That's where we a r e s i m i l a r , y a , why a r e we h e r e ? You know, t h a t l e a d s t o e n d l e s s q u e s t i o n s . Where we a r e g o i n g , I d o n ' t even t h i n k about t h a t , i t ' s u n i m a g i n a b l e anyhow.  I:  So you g u y s , o v e r t i m e , have r e a l l y communicated a l o t about s o r t of t h i n g .  CR:  Yes we d i d , v e r y much. We always communicated what we t h o u g h t but not always how we f e l t about each o t h e r . That has come s l o w l y , i t ' s f r a g m e n t s . You can always s a y , " I l o v e you," t h a t ' s f i n e , b u t what i f you can say a t the moment, " I don't l o v e y o u , I hope i t comes back, I'm w o r k i n g on i t . " T h a t , I must s a y , i s what I l i k e b e s t about b e i n g m a r r i e d . I h a t e i t when e v e r y t h i n g goes s m o o t h l y . Y a , I s t a r t l o o k i n g a t o t h e r women much more t h a n when I'm w o r k i n g on my m a r r i a g e . You know, you go around and you s a y , "oh, she l o o k s c u t e and oh boy, wouldn't i t be n i c e to be f r e e , " o r something l i k e t h a t . What would happen I f I c h e a t e d on my w i f e . But i f you a r e r e a l l y t r u l y i n v o l v e d i n your m a r r i a g e , I would say t o c e r t a i n d e g r e e , not i f you b a t t l e e v e r y day. But i f y o u ' r e t r u l y w o r k i n g on i t w i t h c a r e and w i t h b a s i c m o t i v a t i o n to make t h i n g s work, I t h i n k i t ' s much more i n t e r e s t i n g . You may have p a i n f u l d i s c u s s i o n s and sometimes you f e e l l i k e you're g e t t i n g knifed alive. B u t I t h i n k t h a t t h o s e a r e the most i m p o r t a n t moments. T a l k i n g about s a t i s f a c t i o n , i t doesn't go w i t h o u t p a i n , I would s a y I'm m a s o c h i s t . B u t , you know, p a i n has i t ' s l i m i t s . So I t h i n k s a t i s f a c t i o n comes w i t h deeper u n d e r s t a n d i n g . That's what I s a i d about the two u n i v e r s e s m e e t i n g , when t h i s i s r e v e a l e d t r u e u n d e r s t a n d i n g comes i n t h e r e . True r e s p e c t and t r u e , a c t u a l l y I would s a y awe, a l m o s t , f o r the o t h e r p e r s o n .  I:  Y a , t h a t ' s a r e a l theme i n what y o u ' r e s a y i n g , the w o r k i n g a t i t and f i n d i n g out more about the p e r s o n to the p o i n t of r e s p e c t and even awe.  CR:  Awe i s j u s t o v e r w h e l m i n g . You say oh you know someone, no, n e v e r . I n e v e r y new s i t u a t i o n , e v e r y new c h a l l e n g e , i t shows you d i f f e r e n t aspects.  that  -  149  -  I:  P a r t o f t h i s r e a l l y s a t i s f y i n g p a r t of your m a r r i a g e t h e n i s p a i n f u l t o o because l i k e you s a y i t ' s l i k e y o u ' r e b e i n g k n i f e d a l i v e , t h a t ' s q u i t e a d e s c r i p t i o n . Can you t e l l me a l i t t l e more about t h a t 'cause t h a t ' s r e a l l y i n t e r e s t i n g .  CR:  J u s t r e c e n t l y we had a d i s c u s s i o n . Whenever P. says she i s w r e s t l i n g w i t h h e r f e e l i n g s f o r me, you know, h e r f e e l i n g s a r e dead, I f e e l l i k e I'm r e a l l y , l i k e a l l my s t r e n g t h s o r t of . . . ( s t r u g g l i n g f o r the r i g h t w o r d s ) . I t a f f e c t s me p h y s i c a l l y as w e l l , I f e e l weak, p h y s i c a l l y weak. Of c o u r s e i t ' s o n l y a m e n t a l c o n d i t i o n . I c o u l d s t i l l l i f t a 100 l b . b a g . You f e e l weak a l l over. A l t h o u g h I have the same f e e l i n g s f o r h e r b u t when someone t e l l s you t h a t i t a c h e s . And t h e r e ' s a n o t h e r t h i n g I s h o u l d m e n t i o n . P. i s an academic and I'm n o t . Now t h i s has been a s o u r c e o f p a i n f o r b o t h of u s . I f I was a happy tradesman i t would make a d i f f e r e n c e , b u t p r o b a b l y n o t 'cause she s a i d , " I m a r r i e d you because y o u ' r e not j u s t a tradesman." Tradesmen have t h i s image of b e i n g i n t e r e s t e d o n l y i n f o o t b a l l and d r i n k i n g beer and g o i n g t o the beer p a r l o r . I t ' s u n f o r t u n a t e , t h e y ' r e not t h a t way but a l o t of guys p r e t e n d t h e y ' r e t h a t way. I've been a l i t t l e b i t s l o w i n g e t t i n g o f f t h e ground g o i n g t o s c h o o l . My e x p e r i e n c e was so h o r r i b l e as a k i d I d i d n ' t e v e r want t o go back t o s c h o o l . Any way I'm d o i n g t h a t now. And i t has e n r i c h e d my l i f e and P.'s l i f e and has improved o u r m a r r i a g e .  I:  But somehow you g o t t o g e t h e r was r e a l l y d i f f e r e n t .  CR:  I was w e l l r e a d and s t i l l r e a d a l o t . I t was somehow i n c o n g r o u s t h a t I was a tradesman and s t i l l i n t e r e s t e d i n so many of t h o s e things.  I:  I guess P. must have seen t h a t p a r t o f y o u .  CR:  Y e s , t h a t ' s why she m a r r i e d me, she t o l d me t h a t . She s a i d t h a t she was b o t h e r e d t h a t I was a b a k e r , r e a l l y b o t h e r e d . I'm b o t h e r e d by b e i n g a b a k e r t o o , I d o n ' t l i k e i t . I t doesn't g i v e me any f u l f i l l m e n t and my u n h a p p i n e s s r e a l l y was a burden on t h e f a m i l y and on our m a r r i a g e . So t h a t ' s a n o t h e r problem, s h o u l d a much b e t t e r o f f i c i a l l y e d u c a t e d p e r s o n marry someone who i s n ' t ? I t t a k e s a l o t more work, more m a t u r i t y on b o t h p a r t s .  I:  So t h a t ' s been a p a r t of y o u r m a r r i a g e t h a t ' s been d i f f i c u l t but you've worked i t o u t .  CR:  You see when she t e l l s me t h e s e t h i n g s i t h u r t s . And I've thought of l e a v i n g h e r , you know how you dream of t h e s e t h i n g s . You know, even i f you daydream about those t h i n g s , I knew I ' d never do t h a t . And I a s k e d h e r and she s a i d she'd n e v e r l e a v e me; w e l l you know p e o p l e change t h e i r m i n d s . B u t I'm q u i t e c o n f i d e n t t h a t I can s a y t h a t I c a n ' t see us e v e r l e a v i n g each o t h e r .  even though t h a t p a r t of y o u r  lives  - 150 I:  So you've r e a c h e d a l e v e l o f t r u s t t h a t ' s p r e t t y h i g h t h e n I g u e s s , i s that r i g h t ?  CR:  I would s a y , y a . But i t doesn't l e a v e me so I'm j u s t g o i n g t o be n e v e r l e a v e y o u means t h a t i f we t h a t ' s wrong. I t h i n k i n p u t has  I:  Y e s , i t keeps t h i n g s k i n d o f s p i r a l l i n g upwards. What about t h e r o l e s you guys have. I don't know i f P. worked b e f o r e b u t you have always been t h e b r e a d w i n n e r . When you came i n t o m a r r i a g e what d i d you e x p e c t t h a t y o u r r o l e would be, and e x p e c t t h a t P.'s r o l e would be? D i d y o u see one a n o t h e r ' s r o l e s i n t h e same way do you t h i n k . What was t h a t e x p e r i e n c e . ?  CR:  I n e v e r e x p e c t e d t o marry someone who j u s t s a t a t home. I thought i t was d e g r a d i n g . I grew up i n a b u s i n e s s and my mother always worked and I always b a s i c a l l y saw women and men as e q u a l . I had a boss i n G. and she was a woman so t o me i t d i d n ' t make any d i f f e r e n c e , I c o u l d work under a woman b o s s , you know, I d i d . I saw my mother work a l l h e r l i f e . So I have no p r o b l e m w i t h women w o r k i n g . I a c t u a l l y thought i t was t h e b e s t f o r them. I t was n e v e r a bone o f c o n t e n t i o n w i t h i n me, so t o me i t was, l e t a woman do what she wants t o d o .  I:  Do you t h i n k P. has s i m i l a r v i e w s on t h a t ?  CR:  No, I don't t h i n k s o . I f e l t t h a t P. would have r a t h e r l i k e d t o have m a r r i e d someone more s u c c e s s f u l , maybe a l i t t l e more money and she'd be more o f a d i l e t t a n t e . T h a t ' s one s i d e o f h e r b u t t h e o t h e r s i d e s a y s , "no I d o n ' t want t h a t e i t h e r . " 'Cause she's n o t the t y p e t o s t a y home a t a l l . But she was brought up i n a d i f f e r e n t environment a l t h o u g h h e r mother worked a l l h e r l i f e t o o . But she thought maybe I t would be n i c e t o go t o t h e n e i g h b o u r h o o d c o l l e g e and l o o k f o r t h e l a w y e r , d o c t o r . I guess she d i d t o o but she c o u l d n ' t f i n d one t h a t she l i k e d enough. Yes she had t h a t image o f l i v i n g i n maybe a f a n c y house, and h a v i n g an e a s i e r l i f e , and I w i s h I c o u l d have p r o v i d e d some o f t h a t , w i s h I c o u l d have p r o v i d e d maybe a l i t t l e money. On t h e o t h e r hand i t was good t h a t she had t o go o u t , c o n t i n u e h e r e d u c a t i o n .  I:  I n y o u r m a r r i a g e have you had any e x p e r i e n c e s o f c o n f l i c t o v e r who s h o u l d do what, t h o s e k i n d o f r o l e c o n f l i c t s ?  CR:  No, I d o n ' t t h i n k we a r e r o l e c o n s c i o u s . I h e l p w i t h t h e house, I do t h e c o o k i n g , o r t h e d i s h e s o r t h e vacuuming. U s u a l l y I do t h e more heavy work l i k e p a i n t i n g o u t s i d e , p a i n t i n g i n s i d e , b u i l d i n g the p o r c h and t h e sundeck, and I do t h e g a r d e n i n g and s t u f f l i k e that.  I:  Do t h e r o l e p a r t s seem t o have j u s t happened?  mean t h a t oh, she's never g o i n g t o a slouch. I know t h a t I w i l l continue. I don't know, maybe t o be t h e r e .  -  151  -  CR:  Ya, we do what has to be done, s u r e we have p r e f e r e n c e s . I f I cook she does the d i s h e s . She makes the bed, I j u s t c r a w l i n t o i t unmade, I don't c a r e i f i t ' s made or n o t . So I don't come home and s a y — w e l l s u r e I l i k e a c l e a n house and sometimes i t s messy 'cause she has much t o do and I work p r a c t i c a l l y around the c l o c k , s c h o o l i n g and work so t h i n g s get out of hand once i n a w h i l e and i t u p s e t s me. When you have s m a l l k i d s you c a n ' t put them t o work. W e l l now i t ' s e a s i e r , when k i d s are o l d e r i t ' s a l o t e a s i e r I must say.  I:  How has t h a t e f f e c t e d y o u r m a r r i a g e , the k i d s , as you go your l i f e c y c l e .  CR:  W e l l , I don't t h i n k the k i d s were a burden as s u c h . Sure t h e r e were many s l e e p l e s s n i g h t s when t h e y were s i c k but I d o n ' t t h i n k they were used as c e m e n t i n g our m a r r i a g e or were seen as d r i v i n g us a p a r t a l t h o u g h sometimes you w i s h you had a r e l a t i v e i n town t o g i v e t h e k i d s t o t o get away f o r a few d a y s . We have n e v e r been away f o r a weekend w i t h o u t the k i d s . And I t h i n k t h a t i s t e r r i b l e . I t h i n k a m a r r i e d c o u p l e s h o u l d be a b l e t o get away t o renew t h e i r m a r r i a g e . F i n d out what t h e y have t o g e t h e r away from the k i d s . W i t h o u t w o n d e r i n g what i s l i t t l e Johnny d o i n g . Never mind l i t t l e Johnny, what i s h a p p e n i n g between u s . I t h i n k t h a t would have perhaps a v o i d e d a l o t of p a i n . I t h i n k we would have d i s c o v e r d s o o n e r what we d i s c o v e r e d a f t e r t e n y e a r s , about our f e e l i n g s .  I:  You t a l k e d about p a i n . Can you t e l l me about t h a t , j u s t i n c o n t r a s t t o the s a t i s f a c t i o n of f i n d i n g o u t , what was the p a i n of i t .  CR:  through  part  The p a i n on my p a r t was h o l d i n g a m i r r o r up to me and making me l o o k at my f e e l i n g s f o r h e r . I was aware of t h a t a l r e a d y but when someone t e l l s you s o m e t h i n g t h a t even you y o u r s e l f are w r e s t l i n g w i t h . As l o n g as you c a n ' t admit i t t o the o t h e r p e r s o n you haven't r e a l l y f a c e d i t 100 p e r c e n t . You o n l y f a c e i t the moment you admit i t or c o n f e s s ; t h e n you've r e a l l y made a s t a t e m e n t , a commitment of s o r t s . I f you h o l d i t i n , gee, I w i s h I f e l t r o m a n t i c l o v e f o r my w i f e , as l o n g as you don't t e l l her you s o r t of l i v e i n l i m b o . Maybe t h e r e i s the t i m e when you s h o u l d n ' t t a k e the r i s k and maybe t h e r e i s the t i m e when you s h o u l d t a k e t h e r i s k . And I guess P. knew t h a t I c o u l d t a k e t h i s , she t o l d me t h i s , " I know you can t a k e t h i s s t u f f . " I s a i d , "what i f I'd t o l d you e a r l i e r " and she s a i d , "I'm not so s u r e I c o u l d have t a k e n i t , " and I must have sensed t h a t so I k e p t i t t o m y s e l f . And I'm g l a d t h a t she came t o the p o i n t she can f a c e h e r own f e e l i n g s . She s a i d she wasn't aware of i t b e f o r e . She j u s t wasn't aware. She t h o u g h t t h a t t h a t ' s how i t i s and she was s a d . She was aware t h a t she h a d n ' t , d i d n ' t have t h o s e f e e l i n g s anymore but she t h o u g h t , t h a t ' s how i t i s . She passed i t out of her mind. I don't t h i n k she r e a l l y s t o o d up and f a c e d i t . She s a i d she wasn't r e a l l y aware, she thought she would n e v e r f e e l r o m a n t i c l o v e a g a i n i n her life.  - 152 I:  So f o r you then t h e p a i n f u l p a r t was knowing t h a t you f e l t r o m a n t i c i n f a t u a t i o n p a r t had gone, p r o b a b l y q u i t e a l o n g and you were t r y i n g t o d e a l w i t h how t o b r i n g i t back and c o u l d n ' t t e l l h e r so you were j u s t d e a l i n g w i t h i t i n s i d e t i m e and i t was h a r d .  the time ago, y e t you a l l the  CR:  V e r y h a r d . I t ' s s o r t o f l i k e when you have a b o i l . I t p a i n s but when you l a n c e i t t h e r e ' s a s h a r p p a i n , but i t ' s a r e l i e f a l t h o u g h the p a i n i s much s h a r p e r .  I:  But i t g r a d u a l l y d i s s i p a t e s .  CR;  Then i t d i s s i p a t e s and you squeeze i t and I t h u r t s a l i t t l e but t h e s t u f f oozes o u t .  I:  That's r i g h t .  CR:  A c t u a l l y I l o v e t h e s e d i s c u s s i o n s about o u r f e e l i n g s and l o v e . We g e t used t o i t t o o . F i r s t , oh my God, I d o n ' t know i f she's g o i n g t o l o v e . . . maybe we're g o i n g t o s p l i t u p , maybe o u r m a r r i a g e i s o v e r , b u t t h e n , f a r from i t .  I:  Because you s t a r t t o t a l k about i t .  CR:  And I t h i n k t h a t ' s w o n d e r f u l . S a t i s f a c t i o n i s not j u s t s i t t i n g h a p p i l y t o g e t h e r on a bench i n t h e s u n s e t . I t h i n k s a t i s f a c t i o n i s r e a l l y grinding i t out.  I;  So t h e s a t i s f a c t i o n you g e t from knowing t h a t t h i n g s a r e . . .  CR:  Then you know you a r e b o t h w o r k i n g towards a b e t t e r m a r r i a g e . You can t r u s t t h a t I'm n o t t h e o n l y one who's w o r k i n g t o make t h i s t h i n g work but my p a r t n e r t o o , we're b o t h b e g i n n i n g t o see each o t h e r i n d i f f e r e n t ways. Once you know your f e e l i n g s a r e gone and you admit i t t o each o t h e r I t h i n k you b e g i n t o l o o k f o r a d i f f e r e n t k i n d o f l o v e . A l t h o u g h t o have the romance back would be r e a l l y n i c e t o o . And i t comes, i t sneaks back i n because you b e g i n t o r e f l e c t back, you s a y , "what was i t t h a t brought us t o g e t h e r , " and s o r t o f a g e n t l e n e s s comes i n , a g e n t l e k i n d o f l o v e . Not the e x u r b e r a n c e , n o t the w e l l , p a s s i o n i s s t i l l perhaps p o s s i b l e . I t ' s a g e n t l e k i n d of l o v e .  more  That's a good a n a l o g y T.  And sometimes I wonder what i f I s u d d e n l y found m y s e l f s i n g l e and was d a t i n g women. What would be my f e e l i n g s now a t age 42. Would I f e e l the same f o r a new r e l a t i o n s h i p as I d i d t h e n and I c a n t r u l y and h o n e s t l y s a y , "no", I w o u l d n ' t . I would be much c o o l e r , I would be, I'm not even s u r e I would g e t i n f a t u a t e d . I would be, I don't know what I would be. I t h i n k i t would be much h a r d e r t o f a l l i n l o v e . You know t h e y ' r e j u s t p e o p l e . You don't have t h i s c l o u d e d v i s i o n . Romantic l o v e i s j u s t because you have t u n n e l v i s i o n , you o n l y choose t o see c e r t a i n t h i n g s , t h e t h i n g s t h a t you want t o see i n someone.  -  153  -  I:  So y o u ' r e s a y i n g t h a t you've k i n d of gone t h r o u g h r o m a n t i c l o v e and d e a l i n g w i t h the m a r r i a g e f o r so l o n g t h a t i f you got out of i t you'd be so r e a l i s t i c , p e r h a p s , t h a t i t would be d i f f i c u l t . . .  CR:  Or perhaps the d e c i s i o n would be more r e l i a b l e t o o . t r u s t your e x p e r i e n c e .  I:  Is there anything  CR:  No,  I don'd t h i n k  more you'd l i k e to add so.  at t h i s t i m e  You  T.?  could  - 154 INTERVIEW #4 I:  P l e a s e r e f l e c t on your m a r r i a g e and t h e n t e l l me t h e s t o r y o f y o u r e x p e r i e n c e o f m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . You may want t o g i v e me an o u t l i n e o f t h e s a t i s f a c t i o n i n y o u r m a r r i a g e from the b e g i n n i n g u n t i l now o r you might l i k e t o d e s c r i b e v i g n e t t e s of e x p e r i e n c e t h a t t y p i f y t h e s a t i s f a c t i o n you f e e l .  CR:  You s a i d o r i g i n a l l y you g o t p e o p l e t o t a l k about the s t o r y o f t h e i r m a r r i a g e and t h e n you g r a d u a l l y a d j u s t e d i t t o them sometimes t a l k i n g about some o f t h e n e g a t i v e t h i n g s as w e l l as the p o s i t i v e because i t s r e a l l y hard t o j u s t t a l k about p o s i t i v e t h i n g s I f i n d . Maybe because so much o f i t i s n e g a t i v e a l o t o f t h e t i m e . I t ' s l i k e you're c o n s t a n t l y d e a l i n g w i t h some problem. I don't mean t h a t e v e r y second, I mean e v e r y few days or maybe sometimes you go f o r weeks and t h e r e ' s no b i g problems and t h e n one w i l l come and s t i c k around f o r two weeks and then i t w i l l be a n o t h e r i s s u e y o u ' r e d e a l i n g w i t h so i t ' s d i f f i c u l t t o t a l k about the p o s i t i v e w i t h o u t the n e g a t i v e because t h e y ' r e j u s t so i n t e r w i n e d . The p o s i t i v e t h i n g s a r e what keeps you t h e r e , sometimes s t r u g g l i n g d u r i n g t h e negative things.  I  So t h a t makes sense t o y o u . By l o o k i n g a t the n e g a t i v e you c a n l o o k a t the p o s i t i v e t o o .  CR:  Y e s , because u s u a l l y t h e p o s i t i v e t h i n g s a r e what h e l p you t o g e t t h r o u g h t h e n e g a t i v e t h i n g s . When you're s i t t i n g t h e r e r e a l l y t h i n k i n g , you know, g e t t i n g r e a l l y c a l c u l a t i n g and c o l d b l o o d e d a b o u t , l i k e , what k i n d o f r e l a t i o n s h i p i s t h i s and you s t a r t l o o k i n g a t a l l t h e n e g a t i v e t h i n g s , you have t o s t a r t l o o k i n g a t the p o s i t i v e t h i n g s t o o i f y o u want t o keep t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p g o i n g . On o c c a s i o n I do s t a r t t h i n k i n g , what the h e l l am I d o i n g h e r e , and t h e n I ' l l s t a r t t h i n k i n g , because I do want i t t o work. I ' l l f o r c e m y s e l f t o t h i n k o f t h e good t h i n g s even though my s t a t e of mind i s c o m p l e t e l y n e g a t i v e a t t h e t i m e . I ' l l t r y and t a l k m y s e l f out o f b e i n g n e g a t i v e , so i t ' s d i f f i c u l t . I have a l i s t of some o f the p o s i t i v e t h i n g s , t h e y a r e n o t i n any o r d e r o f i m p o r t a n c e by t h e way. I t j u s t o c c u r r e d t o me when I was r e a d i n g y o u r l e t t e r t o not a h , one o f t h i n g s t h a t I l e a r n e d and my mother once s a i d t o me, " i f y o u ' r e bored w i t h l i f e i t ' s y o u r own f a u l t , " and on o c c a s i o n I have f e l t r e s t l e s s and w a n t i n g something r e a l l y more s t i m u l a t i n g and t h i n k i n g t h a t , I t h i n k b e i n g m i s l e d t h a t i t can j u s t come from a new r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h a new p e r s o n . E x p e c t i n g t h e e x c i t e m e n t and t h e newness o f a new r e l a t i o n s h i p t o g i v e me what I'm m i s s i n g i n my l i f e and I r e a l i z e t h a t she's r i g h t , t h a t I s h o u l d t r y and do s o m e t h i n g f o r m y s e l f and not e x p e c t a n o t h e r p e r s o n t o do t h i n g s f o r me. I t has t o come from me i f I'm g o i n g t o be a c o n t e n t e d p e r s o n . I c a n ' t e x p e c t complete f u l f i l m e n t from a n o t h e r i n d i v i d u a l . I have to be more r e s o u r c e f u l m y s e l f and not e x p e c t complete h a p p i n e s s and contentment t o be c r e a t e d by a n o t h e r p e r s o n . That poor p e r s o n who  - .155  -  has t h a t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , t h a t u n a t t a i n a b l e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of making someone happy. I guess we're brought up w i t h some of t h o s e f a l s e e x p e c t a t i o n s by some of the movies we s e e . When we're g r o w i n g up the l o v e s t o r i e s and t h i n g s , "oh, I ' l l have h a p p i n e s s f o r e v e r from a man." And though I f e e l r a t h e r r e s e n t f u l about tht= l i e s t h a t we've been t o l d t h r o u g h our media I f i n d t h a t o t h e r p e o p l e a r e r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t to me t o o . I've r e a l i z e d as I've g o t t e n o l d e r , e s p e c i a l l y o t h e r women are r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t t o me. Sometimes so you can t a l k about problems or f e e l i n g s o r i d e a s t h a t you have t h a t a r e p a r t i c u l a r t o the female s e x . Some men are r e a l l y good a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g them t o o . Some men are r e a l l y s e n s i t i v e and p e r c e p t i v e about p u t t i n g t h e m s e l v e s i n t o a f e m a l e ' s v i e w p o i n t . But I s t i l l f i n d I f i n d I need women f r i e n d s and so t h a t t a k e s some of the p r e s s u r e o f f my mate t o have to f u l f i l l me c o m p l e t e l y or t o meet a l l my e m o t i o n a l needs. I f i n d t h a t f r i e n d s , men f r i e n d s o r women f r i e n d s , j u s t o t h e r f r i e n d s i n g e n e r a l are r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t t o me. Keep me c o n t e n t e d . Sometimes the more d i s s a t i s f i e d I g e t i t ' s p r o b a b l y sometimes because I've been j u s t at home w i t h G. and B. too l o n g and haven't been g e t t i n g out and b e i n g i n v o l v e d w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e more, so t h a t ' s i m p o r t a n t . Sometimes when you have a downer y o u ' r e not q u i t e s u r e what the causes a r e and sometimes t h a t ' s one of the t h i n g s t o l o o k f o r . Am I not d o i n g enough, i s t h e r e not enough v a r i e t y i n my l i f e . And t h a t ' s my own f a u l t u s u a l l y i f there i s n ' t . I:  I n t h i n k i n g of t h a t i s t h e r e a p a r t i c u l a r t i m e t h a t ' s happened r e c e n t l y or i s t h a t something g e n e r a l t h a t you've f e l t o v e r the y e a r s of b e i n g m a r r i e d .  CR:  I t h i n k i t might be s i n c e I had a c h i l d . S i n c e I had B. I've—you have so much i n common w i t h a n o t h e r p e r s o n who has a c h i l d . You can t a l k a b o u t , you can l e a r n so much from o t h e r p e o p l e who have had c h i l d r e n . I guess i t ' s t h a t l e a r n i n g t h i n g I g e t from o t h e r p e o p l e . (Telephone r i n g s and i n t e r v i e w i s i n t e r r u p t e d . ) Since I had a c h i l d I've g o t t e n i n v o l v e d w i t h o t h e r people i n a d v e r t e n t l y because they have c h i l d r e n and someone f o r B. t o p l a y w i t h t o o . M a i n l y f o r B. to p l a y w i t h them but a l s o g e t t i n g , j u s t to l e a r n f r o m o t h e r p e o p l e who have c h i l d r e n e i t h e r my c h i l d ' s age or a b i t o l d e r so t h a t you can j u s t p i c k up l i t t l e t r i c k s t h e y use or games they t e a c h them or how they t e a c h them. I guess I f e l t I needed o t h e r p e o p l e more t o o . P a r t l y because l i t t l e k i d s c a n ' t t a l k v e r y well. So I t h i n k i t ' s been s i n c e t h e n t h a t I've r e a l i z e d my need f o r more p e o p l e t h a n j u s t one p e r s o n .  I:  I guess maybe, l i k e f o r you guys G. k i n d a works at home.  CR:  Ya,  I:  So your c o n t a c t w i t h him i s o n g o i n g d u r i n g the day. I was t h i n k i n g i n terms of p e o p l e whose husband goes out to work, k i n d of a s t e r e o t y p e h e r e , because the woman i s g e n e r a l l y at home f o r the f i r s t c o u p l e of y e a r s anyway. I'm not s u r e what t h i s has to do  comes i n f o r l u n c h and  i s here a l l t i m e too i s n ' t  he,  coffee.  - 156  -  w i t h a n y t h i n g but g e n e r a l l y the guy goes away i n the morning and comes back i n the a f t e r n o o n . Your s i t u a t i o n i s j u s t a l i t t l e b i t d i f f e r e n t t h a t ' s a l l , because G. works on the p r o p e r t y h e r e . CR:  H a v i n g a c h i l d has put more s t r e s s e s on our r e l a t i o n s h i p and i t a l s o has made i t , w e l l we have t h a t common i n t e r e s t i n a c h i l d . I t ' s one of the p o s i t i v e t h i n g s of h a v i n g a c h i l d . You b o t h l o v e her so much and a r e so i n t e r e s t e d i n her w e l l b e i n g t h a t I t h i n k i t makes you t r y h a r d e r o f t e n times to get a l o n g — a t l e a s t when she's t h e r e ( l a u g h t e r ) , f i g h t i n the o t h e r room l a t e r . I mean she's got t o l e a r n t o argue t o o . So i t ' s got a s t r e n g t h e n i n g e f f e c t h a v i n g a c h i l d but i t a l s o causes new s t r e s s e s . I know t h a t I have at t i m e s f e l t h a r d done by f r o m not h a v i n g had more freedom from the c h i l d c a r i n g . I t ' s g e t t i n g b e t t e r b e c a u s e I'm a r t i c u l a t i n g my needs more. L i k e I d i d n ' t r e a l l y know o f t e n what was b o t h e r i n g me, I c o u l d n ' t always put i t i n t o words. And t h e n I guess I s t a r t e d t o u n d e r s t a n d what was b o t h e r i n g me more. Not g e t t i n g away f r o m the c h i l d more, not h a v i n g more v a r i e t y i n my l i f e . At t i m e s I f e l t t h a t I was the cook and the c l e a n e r and the c h i l d r e a r e r and I was f e e l i n g t h e r e wasn't, t h e r e was j u s t so much of m y s e l f t h a t I wasn't d e v e l o p i n g or u s i n g . I was f e e l i n g frumpy.  I:  Not  CR:  Ya, v e r y common. So i t t o o k me a w h i l e to a r t i c u l a t e my f r u s t r a t i o n or t o know what was c a u s i n g my f r u s t r a t i o n and then t o t r y to f i n d a way f o e x p r e s s i n g my needs w i t h o u t a r g u i n g o r w i t h o u t g e t t i n g a n g r y and s i l e n t and w i t h o u t j u s t becoming r e s e n t f u l and s i l e n t , to show my f r u s t r a t i o n by a s k i n g b e f o r e I g e t a n g r y . Would you do t h i s o r I want t o go out t h e r e , w i l l you s t a y home w i t h the child. I need more t i m e o f f i n a month, I'm n e v e r away from the c h i l d u n l e s s I a r r a n g e two hours w i t h a woman f r i e n d or somebody e l s e who's w i l l i n g to t a k e h e r . I would l i k e him, the husband, the f a t h e r t o do more. And so i t ' s g o t t e n b e t t e r , p a r t l y too w i t h h e r g e t t i n g o l d e r i t ' s e a s i e r f o r him to t a k e her because she's not b e i n g b r e a s t f e d and t h e y ' r e becoming good chums. I'm not h e r , I am s t i l l her prime c a r e - t a k e r but t h e y ' r e d e v e l o p i n g a r e a l l y good f r i e n d s h i p too so he can t a k e h e r away o v e r n i g h t on o c c a s i o n t o V. o r s o m e t h i n g .  I:  How does t h a t communicating y o u r f r u s t r a t i o n s w i t h G.; how i s t h a t r e c e i v e d and d e a l t w i t h . You s a i d i t was b e t t e r because you've d e c i d e d and r e a l i z e d the need to s t a r t t a l k i n g about those k i n d s of t h i n g s . I guess what I'm t r y i n g t o get at i s how i s t h a t c o m m u n i c a t i o n , has i t worked out f a i r l y s a t i s f a c t o r i l y i n t h a t you f e e l t h a t you've been h e a r d and t h a t s o m e t h i n g has happened as a r e s u l t of what you've done.  CR:  Y e s , something has happened, not q u i t e what was p l a n n e d , not q u i t e the h a l f day a week I was p r o m i s e d ( l a u g h t e r ) , but i t i s b e t t e r . And I'm not q u i t e s u r e how much to ask f o r e i t h e r , what's f a i r , because I'm not the b r e a d w i n n e r r i g h t now so I'm a b i t c o n f u s e d  an uncommon e x p e r i e n c e f o r women.  - 157  -  about how much I s h o u l d e x p e c t , what's f a i r of me t o e x p e c t . Each r e l a t i o n s h i p h a s , I t h i n k , t h e i r own i d e a of what e q u a l i t y and f a i r n e s s i s , t h a t ' s what I'm f i n d i n g o u t . You c a n ' t l o o k a t a n o t h e r c o u p l e and g e t your i d e a s , you can g e t i n f l u e n c e d by i t and g e t some i d e a s but you c a n ' t e x p e c t t o j u s t copy a n o t h e r c o u p l e . I f i n d you l o o k a t a n o t h e r c o u p l e ' s l i f e and t h i n k , "God, how can she s t a n d i t he never t a k e s the c h i l d , he never does a n y t h i n g . " L o o k i n g a t someone e l s e where t h e man i n s e a s o n a b l y employed away and when he i s home he does so much o f the c h i l d c a r e work t h a t I'm ovewhelmed t h a t he's w i l l i n g t o do so much. My b r o t h e r f o r example. He's not s e a s o n a b l e employed but when he comes home he p r e t t y w e l l t a k e s o v e r t h e c h i l d and I j u s t sometimes t h i n k i t ' s u n f a i r t o h i m , he does t o o much f o r h i s h e a l t h I t h i n k . So you can l o o k around you f o r o t h e r i d e a s but you s o r t of have t o work i t out. And sometimes I s t i l l f a i l , I guess sometimes I ' l l s t i l l g e t f r u s t r a t e d and n o t e x p r e s s my needs soon enough w i t h o u t f e e l i n g resentful f i r s t . G. d i d n ' t know what was b o t h e r i n g me e i t h e r because he'd never had a c h i l d b e f o r e so he'd come i n t o t h e house and g e t t h e heavy v i b e s and not know why he was supposed t o be f e e l i n g g u i l t y . And so t h e odd b i g f i g h t was o v e r t h e c h i l d and what I wanted. How has t h a t worked o u t . I t ' s much b e t t e r . And t h e n I a l s o know t h a t i f I need more freedom I have t o work i t o u t too by t a k i n g B. t o f r i e n d s each week so I g i v e them h e r f o r two hours and t h e n I t a k e t h e i r c h i l d f o r two hours and i f I do t h i s w i t h two f r i e n d s t h e n I'm g u a r a n t e e d a t l e a s t f o u r hours by m y s e l f d u r i n g t h e d a y . And I do l o o k a t t h a t m a i n l y as my r o l e as b e i n g the mother, t h e c a r e t a k e r , because I'm not e a r n i n g any money so I don't e x p e c t t o o much f r o m G. d u r i n g t h e week, the w o r k i n g days o r even on weekends. Communication a l l round c o u l d be b e t t e r about e v e r y t h i n g I'm s u r e . That's one t h i n g we have t o work o n . I:  I t sounds l i k e r i g h t now w i t h B., your r o l e s , you've k i n d o f g o t them worked out t o a d e g r e e . Those t h i n g s a r e always c h a n g i n g and b e i n g a d j u s t e d b u t e s s e n t i a l l y you f e e l k i n d of c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h what's g o i n g on now f o r t h e way i t has t o be, s o r t o f t h i n g .  CR:  HMM-mm I t h i n k i t ' s q u i t e f a i r f o r t h e most p a r t , w i t h the odd l i t t l e b i t of f r u s t r a t i o n , ( l a u g h t e r ) But t h e n i t ' s up t o me t o c o m p l a i n t o o because he's not a mind r e a d e r ; mind you i t would be n i c e i f he was a mind r e a d e r , ( l a u g h t e r ) So I s a y t o p e o p l e who t h i n k h a v i n g a baby i s g o i n g t o h e l p t h e i r r e l a t i o n s h i p , "don't do i t , " because i t s u r e d o e s n ' t , i t ' s j u s t one more t h i n g t o c r e a t e havoc. I n f a c t , you know, I d i d l o t s o f r e a d i n g b e f o r e I got i n t o my r e s e a r c h and t h e y t a l k about t h e f a m i l y l i f e c y c l e , the s t a g e s of our f a m i l y l i f e c y c l e and a f t e r t h e b i r t h o f t h e f i r s t c h i l d i s when t h e s a t i s f a c t i o n i n t h e m a r r i a g e i s g e n e r a l l y t h e l o w e s t . Not t h a t p e o p l e don't want t h e k i d , l i k e you say t h e c h i l d draws you t o g e t h e r i n ways. I n one way you have a v e r y s t r o n g common bond and y e t i t c r e a t e s so many o t h e r r e l a t e d t e n s i o n s and d i s t r a c t i o n s and y o u r a t t e n t i o n doesn't go t o one a n o t h e r so much o f c o u r s e .  I:  - 158  -  CR:  Y a , you tend t o i g n o r e each o t h e r a l o t more. I t ' s e a s i e r t o not g i v e each o t h e r much time o r c a r e o r want t o l i s t e n t o y o u r spouse's problems because a l l day I ' v e been l i s t e n i n g t o what B. wants and i f G. w a l k s i n t h e door and s t a r t s t e l l i n g me h i s problems o r a s k i n g f o r something I j u s t f e e l a l l I have been d o i n g a l l day i s g i v i n g , g i v i n g , g i v i n g and when i s anybody g o i n g t o a s k me how I f e e l , you know, t h a t s o r t of m a r t y r e d f e e l i n g , when i s my t u r n g o i n g t o come t o c o m p l a i n .  I:  I don't t h i n k t h a t ' s r e c o g n i z e d enough somehow. F o r example, i n p r e - n a t a l c l a s s e s t h e y don't t a l k about t h a t s o r t of s t u f f , about the f a c t t h a t t h i n g s a r e g o i n g t o go down h i l l b e f o r e t h e y go up and t h a t i t ' s r e a l l y d i f f i c u l t . I t seems t o me t h a t u n l e s s you have what y o u may c a l l a v e r y t r a d i t i o n a l m a r r i a g e and t h e woman somehow i s t o t a l l y s a t i s f i e d d o i n g e v e r y t h i n g , w h i c h I t h i n k happens sometimes. B u t I don't t h i n k t h a t ' s t o o r e a l i s t i c . So t h a t ' s r e a l l y common. I d o n ' t know f o r subsequent k i d s i f i t changes a t a l l b u t t h e r e ' s p r o b a b l y l i t t l e d i p s e v e r y t i m e .  CR:  I guess t h e f a c t t h a t G. i s e a r n i n g t h e money now i s i m p o r t a n t t o me t o o , l i k e I f e e l f a i r l y g r a t e f u l . I don't know i f I s h o u l d b u t , i s t h a t t h e r i g h t word, I a p p r e c i a t e t h e f a c t t h a t he i s d o i n g t h a t . P a r t l y 'cause I l i k e t o be w i t h B. a t t h i s age. Money i s v e r y b i g . I see o t h e r p e o p l e around me where n e i t h e r o f them c a n f i n d work. I t h i n k t h a t would be r e a l l y hard on a r e l a t i o n s h i p i f n e i t h e r o f you c o u l d f i n d money. Can't f i n d a j o b . The f a c t t h a t he's w o r k i n g and w i l l i n g t o work i s s o m e t h i n g I r e s p e c t i n him. I f he d i d n ' t , i f he'd d e c i d e d , "I'm not g o i n g t o work, I'm g o i n g on w e l f a r e , " o r , "you go and f i n d s o m e t h i n g I don't c a r e what i t i s j u s t g e t o u t and f i n d s o m e t h i n g , " I t h i n k t h a t would r e a l l y make me a n g r y and i t might even s e v e r t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p . I t h i n k i t ' s a r e a l l y b i g i s s u e , t h e p e r s o n s a t t i t u d e and w i l l i n g n e s s t o work. U n l e s s he r e a l l y wanted t o be t h e prime c a r e t a k e r of the c h i l d , i f t h a t was h i s m o t i v a t i n g t h i n g . Then i t would be a d i f f e r e n t i s s u e . But the f a c t t h a t he's w i l l i n g t o work i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t t o me r i g h t now. P r o b a b l y always w i l l be. Not t o be a m b i t i o u s , n o t t o be money g r a b b i n g , b u t j u s t t o be w i l l i n g t o work. F o r t u n a t e l y he's found s o m e t h i n g he l i k e s d o i n g w h i c h i s a h a r d t h i n g t o f i n d t h e s e d a y s , i s n ' t i t ? So t h a t ' s a b i g number 'cause i f he wasn't i n t o p u l l i n g h i s own w e i g h t — l i k e some men maybe t h e y c a n ' t f i n d g a i n f u l employment so when t h e y ' r e home t h e y ' l l become house-husbands and t h a t ' s f i n e . I've met t h e odd guy who won't do e i t h e r . He's home, he doesn't change t h e d i a p e r s , he won't cook, he might do a b i t o f mechanics on t h e c a r , he doesn't do any of t h e g a r d e n i n g , he's an a r t i s t but doesn't do much a r t work. H i s w i f e , she amazes me how she can be so a c c e p t i n g o f h i s ways. I don't know i f my l o v e , so c a l l e d , would bear those s o r t of s t r e s s e s . And t h e n i t makes me f e e l bad t h a t I q u e s t i o n , l i k e I s t a r t t h i n k i n g , what t h e h e l l i s l o v e t h e n i f t h e s e t h i n g s l i k e economics a r e so c r u c i a l , l i k e what t h e h e l l i s l o v e i f money p l a y s such a b i g p a r t in holding a r e l a t i o n s h i p together. Seems maybe I'm b e i n g t e r r i b l y s e l f i s h or p e t t y . I t makes me q u e s t i o n , why i s i t so i m p o r t a n t ?  -  159  -  I:  So the money p a r t t h a t i s i m p o r t a n t , does i t g i v e you a c e r t a i n amount of freedom and maybe some s t a b i l i t y i n l i f e t h a t a l l o w s you to do what you have to do.  CR:  R i g h t , i t does p r o v i d e a v e r y s t a b l e environment and a l i f e s t y l e . I t ' 8 not much money but i t p r o v i d e s a l i f e s t y l e . I t means t h a t I can be B.'s mother and do the g a r d e n i n g and w h a t e v e r . And he l i k e s h i s work. I t ' s l i k e we a l l have f a i r l y s e t r o l e s r i g h t now w h i c h I t h i n k i s good f o r a p e r s o n I f you l i k e what your r o l e i s . I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o have t h a t k i n d o f , ya s t a b i l i t y , t h a t ' s a good word. Maybe t h a t ' s why the word money has such n e g a t i v e c o n n o t a t i o n s but i t ' s not money, i t ' s p r o v i d i n g you w i t h a c e r t a i n freedom to l i v e a c e r t a i n way w h i c h i s a f a i r l y s t a b l e l i f e f o r u s .  I:  And then you were f e e l i n g k i n d of f u n n y about e q u a t i n g l o v e w i t h h a v i n g money. What r o l e does l o v e p l a y i n your m a r r i a g e ? Can you t e l l me some of your e x p e r i e n c e of f e e l i n g l o v e d , what has happened t h a t ' s made you f e e l t h a t way. I t ' s p r e t t y much d i r e c t i n g you but I'm i n t e r e s t e d i n t h a t .  CR:  How  I:  What has happened t o make you f e e l t h a t way? T h e r e ' s p r o b a b l y o v e r a l l f e e l i n g , j u s t s h a r i n g and b e i n g t o g e t h e r .  CR:  Yes, I guess t h a t was a l a r g e p a r t of i t , h a v i n g a background t o g e t h e r h a v i n g had common e x p e r i e n c e s . Sometimes you s t a r t to wonder about how l o v e d a r e you, how l o v e d i s one, i s i t j u s t a h a b i t of- b e i n g t o g e t h e r , i s i t the i n e r t i a of h a v i n g an o l d r e l a t i o n s h i p . And then once i n a w h i l e t h i s f e e l i n g of b e i n g l o v e d w i l l pop up on a c e r t a i n o c c a s i o n . I guess the l a s t t i m e was when I had t o have the a b o r t i o n because the baby had no b r a i n . Going t h r o u g h the a b o r t i o n , t h e y i n j e c t e d a drug i n t o the u t e r u s to cause c o n t r a c t i o n so I went t h r o u g h f i v e hours of l a b o u r . Having somebody w i t h me a t t h a t time who was i n v o l v e d i n the whole t h i n g and was concerned about my p h y s i c a l , e m o t i o n a l w e l l b e i n g . I t was a v e r y c l o s e s o r t of f e e l i n g to s h a r e t h a t . A t i m e l i k e t h a t makes you f e e l q u i t e c l o s e , l i k e you r e a l l y need somebody. R e a l i z i n g a t t i m e s l i k e t h a t t h a t you r e a l l y do need o t h e r people to s u p p o r t you. And then a c r i s i s t h i n g l i k e t h a t w i l l pass and then e v e r y d a y l i f e comes b u m b l i n g back a l o n g and you s t a r t h a r p i n g a t each o t h e r and not showing enough t e n d e r n e s s o r c a r e f o r each o t h e r . Being c r i t i c a l of each o t h e r r a t h e r t h a n p o s i t i v e , not p a t t i n g each o t h e r on the head enough. Sometimes, I've f e l t l i k e , "God, I never g e t p a t t e d on the head o r c r e d i t e d f o r a n y t h i n g . J e s u s , I m i g h t as w e l l l e a v e f o r s e v e r a l days j u s t to show, my absence w i l l maybe show what I do when I am h e r e so I t h i n k I s h o u l d go away so maybe I ' l l s t a r t b e i n g a p p r e c i a t e d a g a i n . So I ' l l go t h r o u g h l i t t l e m e n t a l t a n t r u m s i n s i d e my head l i k e t h a t and u s u a l l y I d o n ' t do it. ( l a u g h t e r ) Or i f I c r i t i c i z e G. and he won't t a k e c r i t i c i s m v e r y w e l l I g e t angry a t him f o r not b e i n g a b l e to t a k e c r i t i c i s m . He c r i t i c i z e s me so I f e e l he s h o u l d be a b l e t o t a k e i t . And so  has i t f e l t ? an  -  160  -  I ' l l get angry a t him i n s i d e m y s e l f . That's one t h i n g I have t o work on i s t e l l i n g him I f e e l he's not l e t t i n g me c r i t i c i z e him w i t h o u t g e t t i n g u p p i t t y or s e l f - d e f e n s i v e and i t ' s h i s r e s p o n s e I don't l i k e i t ' s not what I'm c r i t i c i z i n g t h a t I d i s l i k e so much, i t ' s h i s r e s p o n s e of b e i n g c r i t i c i z e d t h a t p u t s me o f f . And I ' l l have t o s t a r t a r t i c u l a t i n g t h a t because t h a t — s o what was the p o i n t t h a t I was t r y i n g to make, I c a n ' t even remember. T a l k i n g about l o v e , how something w i l l happen t h a t w i l l r e u n i t e you. 'Cause sometimes you b o t h get so busy each w i t h your own i n t e r e s t s , h i s woodworking and my c h i l d c a r i n g , t h a t you don't g i v e each o t h e r enough s o r t o f , I don't know i f i t ' s c a r e or c o n c e r n . Ah, t h e y ' r e t o u g h , t h e y ' r e s u r v i v i n g , t h e y ' r e g e t t i n g by ok, I don't have t o go i n and do a n y t h i n g s p e c i a l f o r them, and b e s i d e s I'm too t i r e d , (laughter) I want to r e a d . Making the e f f o r t to show l o v e . Or t a k i n g the p e r s o n f o r g r a n t e d i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s so easy t o happen t h a t once i n a w h i l e you f e e l a b i t g u i l t y about it. The l o s s of the baby was an e x p e r i e n c e t h a t brought us t o g e t h e r . The b i r t h of B. was major event and the pregnancy t o o , s h a r i n g t h i n g s i n a p r e g n a n c y . E x c e p t at t i m e s d u r i n g the p r e g n a n c y I f e l t very alone. I:  Because y o u ' r e b o t h e x p e r i e n c i n g you.  two  r e a l i t i e s about i t , a r e n ' t  CR:  Ya, and he was so i n v o l v e d i n h i s woodworking c o u r s e i n C. at the time that I j u s t f e l t q u i t e alone. I suppose b e i n g i s o l a t e d from my f a m i l y and f r i e n d s down t h e r e made i t h a r d e r a l t h o u g h I met some r e a l l y w o n d e r f u l p e o p l e down t h e r e . So t a l k i n g about l o v e t h i n g s . God, i t ' s so easy t o g e t , as I was s a y i n g t a k i n g someone f o r g r a n t e d and n o t , I mean t h a t r o m a n t i c f e e l i n g i s not t h e r e t h a t was t h e r e i n the i n i t i a l phases of your r e l a t i o n s h i p . I would be i n t e r e s t e d t o know i f t h e s e o t h e r p o e p l e who have had l o n g - t e r m m a r r i a g e s whether they f e e l the romance a t a l l anymore. To be h o n e s t , I d o n ' t . I w o u l d n ' t say t h a t to G. 'cause I wouldn't want t o h u r t him. And he p r o b a b l y d o e s n ' t even t h i n k I do, i t ' s j u s t t h a t i f I a r t i c u l a t e d i t , i t would be h u r t f u l . I can u n d e r s t a n d why p e o p l e have b r i e f romances or q u i c k a f f a i r s because of the sameness, always b e i n g i n bed w i t h the same p e r s o n , y e a r a f t e r y e a r a f t e r year. I t can be p l e a s a n t and i t can be b o r i n g , depends on y o u r hormones or how your r e l a t i o n s h i p i s g o i n g a t the t i m e . You can u n d e r s t a n d though how p e o p l e do i t j u s t because i t would be n i c e to have a change. And i t ' s l i k e times l i k e t h a t t h a t you r e a l l y have t o s t a r t t a l k i n g t o y o u r s e l f , t h i n k of the i m p o r t a n t t h i n g s , t h i n k of the good t h i n g s t h a t are coming f r o m y o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p and you c a n ' t r e a l l y p r o b a b l y have your cake and eat i t too a l t h o u g h i t would be n i c e . I t h i n k h a v i n g f a m i l y r e l a t i o n s l i k e mothers and b r o t h e r s and s i s t e r s around you who know you as a couple. H a v i n g t h a t extended f a m i l y p r e s e n t h e l p s to keep you as a couple too. I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e ' s a c e r t a i n amount of s o c i a l  -  161  -  p r e s s u r e t h e r e . P e o p l e j u s t e x p e c t t h a t y o u ' r e g o i n g t o be w i t h y o u r mate tomorrow. I f the thought o c u r s t o one, hmmmm, I wonder what i t would be l i k e b e i n g a s i n g l e p e r s o n a g a i n , and you t h i n k , oh God, I'd have to t e l l e v e r y b o d y , ( l a u g h t e r ) Or what you f a n t a s i z e a b o u t , what i t would be l i k e to be s i n g l e sometimes when y o u ' r e j u s t a b i t b o r e d w i t h your humdrum e x i s t e n c e . And then you s t a r t t h i n k i n g about the r e a l i t i e s as I s a i d , f a c i n g y o u r f a m i l y and t e l l i n g them 'cause t h e y j u s t assume t h a t e v e r y t h i n g i s f i n e and e v e r y t h i n g ' s g o i n g t o be the same tomorrow as i t i s t o d a y . So t h e r e ' s a c e r t a i n s t r e n g t h t h a t comes from h a v i n g f a m i l y a r o u n d . Maybe i t ' s f o r c e d s t r e n g t h , but i t does e x i s t , i t e x e r t s a k i n d of f o r c e on you. A l t h o u g h I've s a i d t o m y s e l f , I'm not e v e r y g o i n g to s t a y i n a m a r r i a g e because of s o c i a l p r e s s u r e s , t h a t ' s not enough to keep h e r e i f I r e a l l y want to l e a v e .  me  Were you s a y i n g t h a t h a v i n g f a m i l y a r o u n d , i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t you l i k e even though t h e r e ' s p r e s s u r e t h e r e from i t ; u n s p o k e n , p a s s i v e p r e s s u r e , t h a t we may o n l y c r e a t e i n o u r s e l v e s . I'm s u r e i t i s , my f a m i l y would be t o t a l l y a c c e p t i n g of w h a t e v e r move I made. They wouldn't condemn me, i t would be g r e a t I'm sure. G.'s mother, t h a t would be d i f f e r e n t , (laughter) A n o t h e r t h i n g t h a t g i v e s some s a t i s f a c t i o n i n a m a r r i a g e r e l a t i o n s h i p i s h a v i n g o v e r l a p p i n g i n t e r e s t s . L i k i n g a l o t of the same p e o p l e . I f he chose f r i e n d s t h a t I c o u l d n ' t t o l e r a t e t h a t would r e a l l y be t o u g h . So I t h i n k t h a t ' s r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t , t h a t you end up l i k i n g , not a l l y o u r f r i e n d s can be the same. 'Cause I have one g i r l f r i e n d t h a t he j u s t d o e s n ' t c a r e f o r v e r y much which d i s a p p o i n t s me. I w i s h he would 'cause I would l i k e her to come o v e r more and to see them s o c i a l l y more. But I know he doesn't get o f f on her so i t ' s s o m e t h i n g I have to do on my own and sometimes I'm a b i t l a z y and I d o n ' t b o t h e r g o i n g t o see h e r . People, r e a l l y l i k i n g s i m i l a r t y p e s of p e o p l e i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t . I f he went out o r brought home f r i e n d s t h a t I d i d n ' t l i k e t h a t would r e a l l y be t o u g h . And I guess I'd put t h a t under the t o p i c of h a v i n g s i m i l a r i n t e r e s t s . Ok, l i k i n g s i m i l a r forms of l i t e r a t u r e and f i l m s . I don't know how i m p o r t a n t i t i s to have a s i m i l a r background i n e d u c a t i o n , we b o t h have s i m i l a r amounts of e d u c a t i o n so I c a n ' t speak t h e r e . I t seems i m p o r t a n t t o me t h a t he's an i n t e l l i g e n t p e r s o n . He r e a d s a b i t more than I do, the M a n c h e s t e r G u a r d i a n , so he's g e t t i n g more i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I haven't the time to r i g h t now, having a c h i l d . I f i n d him a good s o u r c e of i n f o r m a t i o n . I can ask him q u e s t i o n s about s o m e t h i n g . He doesn't t e l l as much as I w i s h he would but i f I have a s p e c i f i c q u e s t i o n I c a n ask him. So I l i k e t o be w i t h a mate who i s as w e l l i n f o r m e d or b e t t e r i n f o r m e d t h a n me. I'm not s a y i n g i t ' s e s s e n t i a l , i t ' s j u s t because i t i s l i k e t h a t , and I do e n j o y t h a t .  - 162  -  I:  R i g h t , f o r y o u , t h a t ' s your e x p e r i e n c e . I f i t was any d i f f e r e n t you f e e l maybe t h a t you wouldn't l i k e i t j u s t from what . . .  CR:  I would miss t h a t , s a y i f I was w i t h a d i f f e r e n t mate next y e a r and t h e y d i d n ' t have t h a t a s p e c t I would m i s s i t o r f e e l a l a c k of i t . Oh y a , I t h i n k i t ' s i m p o r t a n t t o have d i f f e r e n t i n t e r e s t s t o o , t o not do e v e r y t h i n g t o g e t h e r . That would be more t h a t I would want. I l i k e t o have s e p a r a t e i n t e r e s t s . I p l a y t h e f l u t e and he d o e s n ' t , he doesn't read m u s i c , t h a t ' s an i n t e r e s t I have w i t h one o f my women f r i e n d s . He's not i n v o l v e d i n t h e g a r d e n i n g , sometimes I w i s h he was more i n v o l v e d i n t h e back l a b o u r p a r t of i t . I l i k e to have some d i f f e r e n t i n t e r e s t s than h i m .  I:  How come, have you thought  about t h a t p a r t o f i t ?  CR  No, I don't know why. Maybe i t ' s an excuse t o do s o m e t h i n g w i t h another person. I t ' s s o m e t h i n g t h a t makes me g e t t o g e t h e r w i t h t h i s other person.  I:  A t t h e same time l e a v i n g him o u t because he's not i n t e r e s t e d anyway.  CR:  Y a , r i g h t , maybe t h a t ' s i t , t h a t he c a n ' t s h a r e i t so t h e r e ' s no way he c a n g e t l n on i t . And t o a l l o w each o t h e r t o go s e p a r a t e ways, t o n o t have t o always be w i t h each o t h e r . To t r u s t each o t h e r I suppose enough t h a t you can go somewhere f o r a few days and t h a t ' s ok. To n o t always have t o be under t h e same r o o f . To not f e e l t h a t t h e o t h e r p e r s o n i s g r a b b i n g a t y o u , they l e t you have a b i t o f b r e a t h i n g space.  S i d e two of tape CR:  I p u t a sense of humor down, mind you i t doesn't always come up when you need i t . ( l a u g h t e r ) I f i n d t h a t a very- i m p o r t a n t t h i n g i n a mate. Somebody who has a sense of humor. P e o p l e who a r e v e r y s e r i o u s , I may r e s p e c t them and admire them i n many, many ways, b u t i f t h e y a r e not c a p a b l e of making a j o k e on o c c a s i o n o r a p p r e c i a t i n g c e r t a i n t y p e s of humour, I f i n d t h a t v e r y disappointing.  I:  Can you t e l l me a s t o r y from y o u r m a r r i a g e of where humor i s , i t p r o b a b l y happens on-going a l l t h e t i m e , but i s t h e r e a n y t h i n g particular.  CR:  I guess q u i t e o f t e n when humor, when we l a u g h i t ' s o f t e n when o t h e r p e o p l e a r e w i t h u s . Humor doesn't so o f t e n a r i s e when you r e a l l y need i t t h e most t o make f u n of y o u r s e l v e s i f y o u ' r e b e i n g s i l l y o r t a k i n g s o m e t h i n g t o o s e r i o u s l y . The p e o p l e I e n j o y a r e p e o p l e I can l a u g h w i t h about some t h i n g s .  - 163 I:  I want to ask you i f you can t e l l me a l i t t l e bit about what attracted you guys together and i f you can reflect on whether those qualities s t i l l exist and whether there're s t i l l things that you find attractive. What do you see now as f i r s t attracting you to one another.  CR:  I guess going back to when I f i r s t started to get to know him the situation was I was going to university. I was sharing a house with a couple and a girlfriend, the four of us were sharing a house. And G. used to come to v i s i t the couple because he was in the same sociology class as my housemate T. So I got to know him just as a friend. At f i r s t I had no romantic interests in him at all. It must have been something about his, just his basic character that came across in the conversations. We used to also listen to Goon shows, which were old British radio things, together. We liked that British type of humor. I found him very easy to be with, very accepting. He wasn't at a l l a r t i f i c i a l . I found him very easy to talk to, he could listen. So i t started out like a friendship rather than an instant, ah, I've got to get into bed with you, i t wasn't like that. It was like getting to know him slowly, to get to know a bit of his mind, his personality and then gradually i t just developed into really trusting him. I guess I really trusted him and felt really at ease with him.  I:  Can you t e l l me about that trust, what i t was for you.  CR:  I f e l t secure with him. I didn't find him at a l l threatening, I guess that's what I mean by that. What would have I found threatening in a person? Somebody who's too awfully good looking or too awfully talented and would intimidate me. I sometimes get intimidated by somebody who's terribly b r i l l i a n t at something, although I shouldn't be, I'm getting over that as I grow older, I realize I shouldn't be. I used to be just awestruck by somebody who was a professor or something, thank goodness I've outgrown that. Or a poet, somebody who was a specialist in a certain area. I was so impressed by things like that at that age I would put people on pedestals in my own mind. I didn't find him at a l l threatening. That doesn't mean he wasn't good at anything. That was important that I didn't feel threatened by him. It a l l happened so gradually that I'm not even sure what things we ever talked about or what kind of values came up. Like we never talked about what kind of lifestyles we would like or do you want children or what are you going to do for money. None of those sort of practical things ever came up. It was just sort of fluky that we got together. It gradually developed into sleeping together. He could climb in my bedroom window because I lived on the basement floor. It was just sort of convenient, he could come in any hour of the day or night, (laughter)  - 164  -  And t h e n he went away t o S. t o t e a c h s c h o o l because he a l r e a d y had t h a t commitment. So a l o t o f o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p was t h r o u g h c o r r e s p o n d e n c e and he w r i t e s an e x c e l l e n t l e t t e r . That's a g r e a t way t o keep a r e l a t i o n s h i p g o i n g ; i s be a p a r t and t h e n you c a n ' t g e t t o know each o t h e r t o o w e l l and you have t h e s e w o n d e r f u l letters. I was g o i n g t o go down t h e r e and meet him b u t he q u i t t h e j o b 'cause o f t h e headmaster. So anyway he came back t o C. and g o t a n o t h e r j o b out of the c o u n t r y , p u t t i n g p o s t e r s up around u n i v e r s i t y campuses i n C. I t h i n k t h e thought o f a l o n g term r e l a t i o n s h i p r e a l l y t e r r i f e d him so he k i n d o f . . . ( l a u g h t e r ) . So I found i t a b i t d i f f i c u l t t h a t he went away, b u t somehow t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p manged t o endure the l o n g s e p a r a t i o n s . And t h e n we d e c i d e d t o l i v e t o g e t h e r when he came back from h i s j o b . I t j u s t seemed l i k e t h e s e n s i b l e t h i n g t o do a t t h a t p o i n t i n t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p . J u s t s o r t o f v i s i t i n g each o t h e r d i d n ' t seem l i k e q u i t e enough. We wanted t o g e t more of each o t h e r and spend as much time t o g e t h e r as we c o u l d . That's when we got t h e basement s u i t e i n t h a t o l d house down on T h i r d . Then I g o t a t e a c h i n g j o b a f t e r u n i v e r s i t y , t e a c h i n g F r e n c h . Then we g o t a f i s h boat about a h a l f y e a r l a t e r w i t h a n o t h e r c o u p l e . So I t a u g h t f o r t h r e e y e a r s t o h e l p pay f o r t h e f i s h b o a t because you c o u l d n ' t make much money f i s h i n g i n t h o s e d a y s . That was a h a r d t i m e , about t h e t h i r d y e a r of t h e m a r r i a g e . I:  So y o u g o t m a r r i e d some t i m e i n between.  CR:  Oh y a , we g o t m a r r i e d about s i x months a f t e r we were l i v i n g t o g e t h e r because we d e c i d e d t o a p p l y f o r CUSO t o go t o A f r i c a t o g e t h e r . We though i n o r d e r t o end up i n the same v i l l a g e i n A f r i c a we'd have t o be m a r r i e d . And then we never g o t a c c e p t e d anyway 'cause we a p p l i e d q u i t e l a t e , ( l a u g h t e r )  I:  So t h a t was one o f your r e a s o n s f o r g e t t i n g m a r r i e d , r i g h t .  CR:  Y a , I l i k e t o make a j o k e out o f i t . But somehow m a r r i a g e seemed t o be t h e n a t u r a l t h i n g t o do a t t h e time even though n e i t h e r of us had g r e a t b e l i e f i n the so c a l l e d " i n s t i t u t i o n " o f m a r r i a g e . We d i d n ' t g i v e I t much t h o u g h t , funny how you j u s t do t h e s e t h i n g s . So I was t e a c h i n g m a i n l y t o pay o f f t h e f i s h b o a t a l t h o u g h I s t a r t e d h a t i n g t e a c h i n g . I was q u i t e t o r n . I was g e t t i n g fed-up e c o n o m i c a l l y and c a r e e r - w i s e . I guess t h a t ' s when I f e l t r e a l l y r e s t l e s s t o o . I s t a r t e d q u e s t i o n i n g , why be m a r r i e d , what's t h e p o i n t o f i t ? And I d i d n ' t see any sense o f i t a t t h a t p o i n t . A f t e r about t h r e e y e a r s I g o t q u i t e r e s t l e s s . G. had gone f i s h i n g and I was s t i l l t e a c h i n g . I guess i t was t h a t month I was a l o n e and had time t o t h i n k about t h e pros and cons of b e i n g m a r r i e d and m o s t l y saw n e g a t i v e r e a s o n s f o r i t . So when I went o u t f i s h i n g a f t e r s c h o o l g o t out I t o l d him I was g o i n g t o l e a v e him and he j u s t thought i t was such a s t u p i d - a s s i d e a . He j u s t s o r t of made i t seem so a b s u r d , l i k e he argued me out of i t . I c a n ' t remember how he made i t appear so a b s u r d but i t d i d make i t appear a b s u r d .  - 165 "After a l l we've been through together you're planning on pulling out now, I mean Jesus, what an i d i o t . " Sometimes i t ' s good to be talked to that way, i t makes you not take your own ideas so seriously. You think, well maybe you're right, maybe i t i s a s i l l y thing to do, maybe we should try i t a bit longer. If i t had been a guy who had said, "oh, ok, alright then, sure dear, go ahead, whatever you want", then I probably would have l e f t . Partly because of his reaction I stayed and tried to work on i t and ended up staying. I think the next year I didn't teach so I was much happier. I was quite frustrated teaching, i t was part of my stress. Ever since then i f I get restless I usually just wait i t out, 'cause I usually pass through these l i t t l e phases, come out: the other side. It's something I know about myself; perhaps i t happens to everybody, I don't know. But I guess with experience i t ' s one of those things I've learned about myself that I do get those sort of really restless times and I don't know what i t i s about, me that makes me like that. I wish I wasn't like that 'cause i t makes i t d i f f i c u l t , it's a hard thing to cope with myself sometimes; to try to control myself. I usually just try to not act upon any of my urges, just sort of wait ' t i l l they pass, (laughter) I:  So what got you through that rough spot. Essentially, like you said i t was G. saying, "this i s crazy, i t doesn't make any sense," that was one thing and getting out of teaching.  CR: And he had a job that winter at the museum i n V. so I got to ride around V. on my bicycle and join a food cooperative; just do pleasant things.. I f e l t like l i f e was ok again. Periodically I go through those sort of really restless phases and usually talk myself out of them. I:  You already mentioned this before, about the difference i n your relationsip after having a child because of the added stress of having a child. Is there anything else that i s really different because of that.  CR:  I guess i t makes i t more important to me that the relationship lasts, for the child. There's less pressure on staying together now so I think people are separating for reasons that really aren't that valid. That's my guess, because marital break ups are so common that I think people are breaking for reasons that i f they did try quite a bit harder, and i t ' s bloody hard, then maybe they would weather i t . Like some of the weatherings I've been through, I know that maybe they could do i t too i f they tried.  I:  Unless you have anything else particular that you want to add . . .  CR:  No I can't.  I:  That was  great A., thank you.  -  166  INTERVIEW  #5  I:  P l e a s e r e f l e c t on your m a r r i a g e and then t e l l me the s t o r y of y o u r e x p e r i e n c e of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n . You may want t o g i v e me an o u t l i n e of the s a t i s f a c t i o n i n y o u r m a r r i a g e from the b e g i n n i n g u n t i l now o r you m i g h t l i k e to d e s c r i b e v i g n e t t e s of e x p e r i e n c e t h a t t y p i f y the s a t i s f a c t i o n you f e e l .  CR:  My f i r s t thought i s , my goodness can I t h i n k of a l l t h e s e v i g n e t t e s . There's a l o t o f , i n f i f t e e n y e a r s what do you I wouldn't know where t o b e g i n .  choose.  I:  What I would l i k e you to t h i n k of t h e n , and perhaps I s h o u l d have asked you to do t h i s b e f o r e , i s some of the components o r b a s i c i n g r e d i e n t s i n your r e l a t i o n s h i p t h a t have been s a t i s f y i n g to you and those j u s t might be i n d i v i d u a l words or s h o r t p h r a s e s t h a t come t o your m i n d .  CR:  Components, do you mean t h i n g s l i k e r e s p e c t i n g each o t h e r , what you're t h i n k i n g of as a component.  I:  Yes, t h a t ' s the k i n d of t h i n g I'm t h i n k i n g o f , s o , r e s p e c t f o r one a n o t h e r i s a b a s i c component. You have a few of t h e s e t h i n g s g o i n g t h r o u g h y o u r mind now and t h a t ' s j u s t as s t a r t i n g p o i n t and t h e n e l a b o r a t i n g on t h o s e . I'm not l o o k i n g f o r y o u r t h e o r y or p h i l o s o p h y but f o r i l l u s t r a t i o n s and s t o r i e s of s a t i s f a c t i o n i n your m a r r i a g e . And l i k e you say t h e r e ' s so much o v e r f i f t e e n y e a r s , l i t t l e t h i n g s are g o i n g to pop i n t o your mind and t h a t ' s what I'm i n t e r e s t e d i n . What I s h o u l d have done y e s t e r d a y was a c t u a l l y had you w r i t e t h e s e down.  CR:  Ya, now t h a t would r e a l l y have h e l p e d me to t h i n k about them because as I say t h e r e a r e so many. L i k e r i g h t now I'm t r y i n g t o t h i n k o f , l i k e y o u ' r e g o i n g back f i f t e e n y e a r s , t h e r e ' s j u s t been a l o t t h a t I t h i n k I'd l i k e t o t h i n k a b o u t . L i k e what are t h e highlights. I can c e r t a i n l y t h i n k of a few o f f - h a n d s o r t of t h i n g s , but I would r e a l l y l i k e t o t h i n k about t h i s a l i t t l e more. But l e t ' s p r o c e e d and l e t ' s see where we g e t . We can do i t a g a i n i f I c a n ' t t h i n k o f any, t h e n w e ' l l have t o do i t a g a i n ! (laughter)  I:  Ok. So do you want t o s t a r t o f f t h e n w i t h , ah, f i r s t you mentioned respect. Can you t e l l me how t h a t ' s been p a r t of y o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p and s a t i s f a c t i o n .  CR:  Ya. To s t a r t w i t h I t h i n k our r e l a t i o n s h i p i s a l i t t l e b i t d i f f e r e n t t h a n most c o u p l e s because we have been away from each o t h e r so much. When we f i r s t got m a r r i e d , f o r the f i r s t f o u r , f i v e y e a r s J . was gone f o r f o u r weeks and he was home f o r f o u r weeks so t h a t I guess f o r the f i r s t seven y e a r s of our m a r r i a g e we r e a l l y o n l y l i v e d t h r e e and h a l f y e a r s t o g e t h e r 'cause he was w o r k i n g the other time. And i t ' s the same r i g h t now t o o . He's w o r k i n g i n V.  i s that  - 167  -  and I'm o v e r h e r e but I t h i n k t h a t has been a r e a l p l u s , a r e a l advantage. I t c e r t a i n l y has i t s d i s a d v a n t a g e s but i t h a * i t s advantages t o o because I t h i n k we b o t h r e s p e c t each o t h e r i n many ways. The one t h i n g t h a t r e a l l y comes t o mind i s J . r e a l l y r e s p e c t s my independence and I r e s p e c t h i s . We're two v e r y , v e r y i n d e p e n d e n t p e o p l e who a r e t o t a l l y dependent on each o t h e r i n many ways as w e l l . That came out t h i s summer when he got s i c k . I mean I t h o u g h t I was a v e r y i n d e p e n d e n t p e r s o n and I c o u l d r e a l l y h a n d l e my l i f e by m y s e l f but when he g o t s i c k I r e a l l y r e a l i z e d t h a t I d i d n ' t , n o t t h a t I c o u l d n ' t , b u t I d i d n ' t want t o . And t h a t r e a l l y s t r u c k home as t o j u s t how dependent we a r e on each o t h e r as w e l l as h a v i n g t h i s freedom and t h i s independence t o do as we want t o do. I t h i n k t h a t ' s p r o b a b l y t h e f i r s t t h i n g t h a t comes t o mind, i s t h i s r e s p e c t f o r t h e freedom o f b e i n g o u r s e l v e s . I:  And y e t u n d e r l y i n g t h a t , t h e r e ' s something much deeper than t h a t i s n ' t there.  CR:  Oh y e s , y e s . There i s t h i s w a n t i n g t o be dependent. Not h a v i n g t o be, I t h i n k , b u t w a n t i n g t o be dependent. J . never r e a l l y t e l l s me t h a t I s h o u l d be d o i n g t h i s o r s h o u l d be d o i n g t h a t . L e t ' s t a k e c a r e e r f o r i n s t a n c e . He was q u i t e happy w o r k i n g on t h e b o a t s . He t h e n had an o p p r t u n i t y t o go i n t o t h e o f f i c e a t t h r e e q u a r t e r s f o r h a l f t h e s a l a r y t h a t he was making on t h e b o a t s . That d i d n ' t s t o p him f r o m d o i n g i t , t h e q u e s t i o n o f money was n e v e r r a i s e d . He f e l t i t , I f e l t i t , b u t t h a t was something he r e a l l y wanted t o do and I encouraged i t and a l l o w e d h i m t o do t h a t t o f i n d t h a t he r e a l l y d i d n ' t l i k e i t . He n e v e r would have known t h i s i f we would have been i n t h e p o s i t i o n where I would have s a i d , "you c a n ' t do t h i s . " I t was something t h a t he j u s t had t o f i n d o u t f o r h i m s e l f . The same was when he changed j o b s as a p i l o t . There were a l o t o f q u e s t i o n s and a l o t o f f e a r s f o r me b u t i t was something t h a t he r e a l l y wanted t o do and I r e s p e c t e d him f o r t h a t . He worked v e r y hard to get i n t o the p i l o t s . He a l s o had a heck o f a t i m e g e t t i n g out of t h e company he was a t . T h a t ' s where t h e dependence came in. I was t h e r e j u s t t o keep him g o i n g and we used t o s i t and t a l k f o r hours and h o u r s . He would t e l l me how much he h a t e d t h e p l a c e and we'd j u s t work i t t h r o u g h and work i t t h r o u g h and work i t t h r o u g h , and t h e n he'd go i n and put i n a n o t h e r day and t h e n t h a t e v e n i n g we'd do i t a g a i n and he k e p t s a y i n g as soon as I g e t t h i s p i l o t s j o b e v e r y t h i n g i s g o i n g t o be O.K. I t was a f e a r f o r me t h a t once he g o t t h e j o b i t wouldn't be as g r e a t as he was making i t out t o be. But i t has t u r n e d out t h a t way. I always r e s p e c t e d h i s p o s i t i o n h e r e , i f he wanted t o do something and i t ' s been t h e same f o r me. When I wanted t o go back t o u n i v e r s i t y t h e r e was n e v e r any q u e s t i o n , l i k e , you s h o u l d work. Everybody needs t h e money, you know, t h e s a l a r y was good and t h e r e was n e v e r any q u e s t i o n a b o u t , w e l l maybe you s h o u l d work a n o t h e r two y e a r s and pay o f f t h e house o r maybe you s h o u l d do t h i s . I t was a l w a y s , i f you want t o do i t , t h e d e c i s i o n i s y o u r s and I w i l l back i t . I t h i n k t h a t ' s been a r u l e of o u r m a r r i a g e . I f you make the d e c i s i o n and y o u ' r e happy w i t h i t t h e n I w i l l back i t .  - 168  -  I:  Would have you, when he was w o n d e r i n g whether he s h o u l d have become a p i l o t and you were s o r t of t h i n k i n g w e l l he might get i n t h e r e and f i n d out i t ' s not what he t h i n k s i t i s , d i d you say t h a t to him or how d i d you . . .  CR:  No, I n e v e r s a i d t h a t t o him b e c a u s e I j u s t n e v e r saw any p o i n t i n d o i n g t h a t . He was so gung-ho i n d o i n g i t t h a t I f i g u r e d he would be d i s a p p o i n t e d . You know, i f he was d i s a p p o i n t e d and i f he r e a l l y d i d n ' t l i k e i t he would f i n d something e l s e to do and t h e n I ' d go back t o work and s u p p o r t him f o r t h a t .  I:  And  CR:  From the b e g i n n i n g , t h e r e was always t h i s , you know, w i t h our own p a r t i c u l a r l i f e , c a r e e r s , the d e c i s i o n i s our own w i t h the back-up of the o t h e r p e r s o n . I f the d e c i s i o n i s r i g h t f o r you then i t ' s r i g h t f o r me t o o .  I:  Can you t h i n k of a t i m e when i n c o n t r a s t to you t h a t you haven't f e l t s u p p o r t e d i n what you d e c i d e d to do or you haven't s u p p o r t e d him i n what he wanted t o do and l e t one a n o t h e r know and how t h a t worked o u t .  CR:  As f a r as c a r e e r s  I:  W e l l , c a r e e r s I guess because t h a t ' s a b i g g y but maybe i n a l m o s t anything i n l i f e .  CR:  Oh, yes we d e f i n i t e l y have the un . . . i t ' s v e r y e v i d e n t one a l w a y s p l a y s the d e v i l s a d v o c a t e i n a n y t h i n g m a j o r . I f we wanted to go on a b i g h o l i d a y one of us always p l a y s the d e v i l ' s a d v o c a t e u n t i l we're a b s o l u t e l y s u r e . I f we want to buy a c a r , he may want to buy h i s s p o r t s c a r and I ' l l go a g a i n s t i t or I may want the s t a t i o n wagon and h e ' l l go a g a i n s t i t . In j u s t about a n y t h i n g t h a t ' s of r e l a t i v e i m p o r t a n c e one of us always t a k e s t h a t r o l e . We're i n the p r o c e s s r i g h t now of b u y i n g t h i s house and t h i s i s the f i r s t t i m e where t h e r e ' s no d e v i l ' s a d v o c a t e and one of us i s t r y i n g d e s p e r a t e l y t o be t h a t j u s t so t h a t we can be v e r y , v e r y s u r e . U s u a l l y i f one of us t a k e s t h i s r o l e , i f the o t h e r p e r s o n can c o n v i n c e , l i k e i f he can c o n v i n c e me and can t u r n me around t h e n w e ' l l go f o r i t and w e ' l l be happy. I t ' s v e r y seldom t h a t we b o t h s a y , " t h i s i s i t , t h i s i s what we want, t h i s i s what we're g o i n g to go f o r , " one of us w i l l always h o l d back.  I:  So t h i s seems l i k e a b i t of a d i f f e r e n t d e c i s i o n because you b o t h want i t and t h e r e ' s nobody s a y i n g , " h o l d i t , l e t ' s l o o k a t t h i s . "  CR:  T h i s i s a bad one, t h i s i s a r e a l bad one because t h i s i s a m a j o r , t h i s i s the b i g g e s t one of a l l but i t ' s something t h a t we b o t h r e a l l y , r e a l l y want. But the d e v i l ' s a d v o c a t e i s the f i n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t o r the bank r i g h t now. T h i s i s the f i r s t t i m e t h a t I c a n t h i n k o f — t h o u g h I'm b e g i n n i n g t o s t a r t s a y i n g , " w e l l , what do we  t h a t ' s k i n d of the way  i t ' s been from the  beginning.  go?  - 169  -  r e a l l y need t h i s p l a c e f o r and do we r e a l l y need a swimming p o o l and do we r e a l l y need l e a d l i n e d w a l l s . So t h a t ' s coming t h r o u g h a g a i n but t h a t ' s v e r y s u p e r f i c i a l , i t ' s v e r y hard f o r me t o do that. I:  So y o u ' r e so aware o f i t t h a t y o u ' r e t r y i n g t o c r e a t e i t .  CR:  Oh y e s .  I:  Do you t h i n k t h a t you were aware o f t h i s k i n d o f i n t e r p l a y between y o u r s e l v e s b e f o r e you g o t m a r r i e d o r r i g h t a t the b e g i n n i n g , were you aware o f how you f u n c t i o n e d t o g e t h e r .  CR:  Not b e f o r e we were m a r r i e d , we d i d n ' t have a v e r y l o n g c o u r t s h i p so we r e a l l y d i d n ' t know v e r y much about each o t h e r b e f o r e we were married. R i g h t f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g t h e r e was always t h i s r o l e t h a t one o f us took and i t c o u l d be t h a t I t o o k o v e r t h e f i n a n c e s r i g h t f r o m t h e s t a r t because J . wasn't around so i t was j u s t a n a t u r a l thing. I f t h e r e was a major d e c i s i o n t o be made I a l w a y s c o n s u l t e d w i t h him and i t k i n d o f became a p a r t n e r s h i p r a t h e r than he j u s t d o i n g e v e r y t h i n g and me not knowing t h a t ' s g o i n g o n . I n e v e r p u r c h a s e a n y t h i n g u n l e s s I c o n s u l t him and he v e r y seldom says no. I c a n ' t even remember the l a s t time he s a i d , "no, a b s o l u t e l y n o t . " I t ' s j u s t a n a t u r a l t h i n g — " d o you t h i n k I s h o u l d g e t i t , " o r " I r e a l l y would l i k e i t , " o r "what do you t h i n k , " but I a l w a y s consult.  I:  So some d i s c u s s i o n ?  CR:  U s u a l l y about e v e r y p u r c h a s e , w e l l not e v e r y p u r c h a s e , b u t e v e r y more m a j o r , a n y t h i n g o v e r $25.00 o r $50.00. So t h e r e ' s a l o t of t h a t and I guess maybe t h i s i s where the dependence comes i n where I r e a l l y want t h a t and I t h i n k he does t o o .  I:  So i t ' s a need t h a t ' s f u l f i l l e d p r o b a b l y f o r both o f y o u , b o t h of your needs a r e f u l f i l l e d i n t h a t r e s p e c t .  CR:  Y a . The o t h e r t h i n g I t h i n k w i t h him b e i n g away so much i s y o u a p p r e c i a t e each o t h e r when y o u ' r e around each o t h e r . We v e r y seldom f i g h t because time i s j u s t t o o s h o r t and t h e r e ' s j u s t no p o i n t i n h a v i n g a b i g blow-up and not t a l k i n g t o each o t h e r f o r a week o r so because when he's o n l y home f o r n i n e days you make t h e b e s t o f i t . I t ' s not an a r t i f i c i a l s i t u a t i o n though. You make t h e b e s t o f t h e s i t u a t i o n . Even when he was a t work f o r f o u r weeks, you j u s t a p p r e c i a t e d h a v i n g t h e o t h e r p e r s o n around t h a t you n e v e r r e a l l y thought o f g o i n g a t i t i n a n e g a t i v e f a s h i o n .  I:  I t r e a l l y i s a unique aspect of your r e l a t i o n s h i p . I know p e o p l e do t h a t but maybe not on such a c o n t i n u o u s b a s i s , I'm t h i n k i n g of l o g g e r s who work t h e s e a s o n a l t h i n g . They're up i n camp f o r f o u r months and then t h e y ' r e home f o r e i g h t and t h a t s o r t of t h i n g . But yours I s r e a l l y o n - g o i n g .  - 170 CR:  Y a , i t ' s a p o i n t where a l o t of p e o p l e a t h i s work, I t h i n k 75% o f the c o u p l e s a r e d i v o r c e d and I f e l t t h a t we've r e a l l y t u r n e d i t a r o u n d . That has become a r e a l p o s i t i v e t h i n g i n o u r m a r r i a g e and we've r e a l l y make i t work.  I:  And p r o b a b l y t h e s e d i v o r c e s spouse b e i n g away so much. that around.  CR:  W e l l , by b e i n g i n d e p e n d e n t when we're n o t around each o t h e r and a l s o by g e t t i n g a l o n g so w e l l when we a r e w i t h each o t h e r .  I:  I c a n see t h a t ' s r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t , b u t I wonder how you e v e r e s t a b l i s h e d t h a t . D i d you have t o work a t i t r e a l l y h a r d and t h i n k , ok I ' v e j u s t r e a l l y g o t t o do t h i s .  CR:  No, we n e v e r d i d , I t h i n k t h a t ' s j u s t our make-up. J . i s a v e r y easy p e r s o n t o g e t a l o n g w i t h and I t h i n k I am t o o and t h a t ' s why we've n e v e r r e a l l y r u n i n t o t h i s s t u b b o r n e s s . He c e r t a i n l y i s n ' t the s t e r e o - t y p e macho t h a t has t o have c o n t r o l , not so a t a l l . That has c e r t a i n l y h e l p e d t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p .  I:  So i t i s n ' t something t h a t you've p r o b a b l y t a l k e d a whole l o t a b o u t , i t ' s happened and i t ' s worked r e a l l y w e l l .  CR:  Y a , n e v e r t a l k about i t . I t j u s t w o r k s . And you know when we d o , don't g e t me wrong, i t ' s not as though we n e v e r have f i g h t s , o r spats. But when we do s p a t u s u a l l y one of us w i l l come v e r y soon a f t e r and s a y , " t h i s i s r e a l l y dumb". I t h i n k we're v e r y , v e r y open, we c a n d i s c u s s i t and I t h i n k t h i s i s r e a l l y one o f t h e p a r t s t h a t I r e a l l y a p p r e c i a t e d about J . i s t h a t he i s v e r y open and he r e a l l y l i k e s t o d i s c u s s t h e i s s u e so t h a t you never have t o s t o r e a n y t h i n g o r keep a n y t h i n g i n s i d e . U s u a l l y h e ' l l l i s t e n and many t i m e s h e ' l l a g r e e w i t h o r y o u ' l l work i t o u t .  I:  So y o u ' r e s a y i n g t h a t you n e v e r r e a l l y have t o guess what he's t h i n k i n g about a n y t h i n g .  CR:  No, you can check i t o u t . Now he may have more t r o u b l e w i t h me b e c a u s e I keep t h i n g s t o m y s e l f and many times he might be guessing. But r e c e n t l y , about t h e l a s t f o u r o r f i v e y e a r s , he's r e a l l y been p u s h i n g me t o d i s c u s s and t o be more open and i t ' s working.  I:  So f r o m s t a r t i n g  CR:  Well, respect  I:  You t o l d me a l i t t l e about y o u r c o m m u n i c a t i o n .  CR:  C o m m u n i c a t i o n — n o p r o b l e m . R i g h t now whenever he's i n V. we always t a l k t o each o t h e r e v e r y day. Our phone b i l l s a r e a s t r o n o m i c a l b u t i n t h e e v e n i n g u s u a l l y i f he's home we u s u a l l y d i s c u s s the day's  have o c c u r e d because of s t r e s s from t h e How do you t h i n k you guys have t u r n e d  o f f w i t h the r e s p e c t  you've k i n d of . . .  to independency, y e t there's  this  dependency.  - 171 events and what's happening. And that was a conscious thing that we decided before he l e f t . That we would do this to keep the lines of communication open because i t ' s very easy to be away a week and you just forget about what's happened during the day and then something Important doesn't seem relevant anymore. So this way with the phone c a l l - that's just an expense we incur. I:  Have you done that right from the start.  CR: Yup, our phone b i l l s have never been less than, well I guess $150 to $200 a month, that's just part of our expenses. I:  That's interesting because I know a couple who do that. However they live together a l l the time. He's a teacher and he phones her just about every day at noon hour just to say hello. And that's probably really important and probably sometimes i t takes effort, I don't know.  CR:  For them i t could be important, I don't know i f i t would be like that for me but when he's away i t i s because there are issues that we can resolve right then and there. You just don't forget, I mean i t ' s just so easy and we're both so very, very aware of how quickly you can not bother saying anything; "well that wasn't important enough." So i f there's anything that's exciting that's happened or anything that's horrible that's happened, usually we share that i n the conversation.  I:  So then unless he's out on the ship and you just can't get a hold of him there's not very many days that you don't make contact.  CR: Yes, and usually the most he's gone i s two days when he's gone up north so usually I talk to him once a day. I:  And sometimes are you tired and just don't feel like phoning but you do anyway?  CR:  Ya, and sometimes we have absolutely nothing to say. If he's tired and I'm tired. You know, "how did things go today, nothing new to report, i t was just a blah day. Same here, ok, well, what did you have for supper today? Well I had this, this and this. No mail today for you or there was a letter from so and so, talk to you tomorrow."  I:  Sort of the kind of things you just might say to someone i f you just came home regularly.  CR:  Or maybe you wouldn't even say those 'cause you make a conscious effort of saying things and keeping them informed. Something you may not do i f they were at home. It's just become part of us now, i t ' s just part of our l i f e .  - 172 I:  I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e t h a t ' s come up s t r o n g l y f o r you i n terms of components o f s a t i s f a c t i o n ?  CR:  Gee, i t ' s j u s t so h a r d t o p i n t h i n g s down because . . . I mean he's a v e r y p l e a s a n t p e r s o n t o be a r o u n d , he's v e r y easy t o l i v e w i t h . We r e a l l y c a r e f o r each o t h e r and I guess maybe c a r i n g and r e s p e c t i n g go hand i n hand. V e r y c o n s c i o u s of each o t h e r ' s f e e l i n g s and t h i n g s and y e t , as I s a y , when we're s e p a r a t e d we l i v e v e r y f u l l l i v e s away f r o m each o t h e r t o o . Now y o u ' r e l o o k i n g f o r more v i g n e t t e s a r e n ' t you?  I:  W e l l no, i t ' s g r e a t , you've j u s t t o l d me a whole p i l e , you r e a l l y have. And I guess o b v i o u s l y t h a t ' s a v e r y i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f your l i f e together. What you've j u s t t o l d me, t h a t y o u m a r r i a g e has a l l these p o t e n t i a l l y r e a l l y . . .  CR:  Explosive.  I:  Y e s , and s t r e s s f u l l i f e t o i t and y e t you've h a n d l e d i t r e a l l y successfully. I t sounds t o me t h a t t h a t i n i t s e l f i s v e r y s a t i s f y i n g t o y o u , t h a t you've been a b l e t o do t h a t whereas o t h e r s , 75% o f t h e o t h e r s , haven't been a b l e t o . I t says a l o t about y o u r relationship.  CR:  And we've been t h r o u g h a l o t , l i k e when o u r p l a c e b u r n t down, when we had t h e f i r e . That p o t e n t i a l l y c o u l d have been a d i v o r c e o v e r t h a t 'cause we were t a k e n out o f o u r own p l a c e f o r t h r e e months and t h a t was p r e t t y t r y i n g . A g a i n we made i t work. We l i v e d w i t h my b r o t h e r f o r t h r e e months w h i c h was v e r y k i n d o f them. But you know, y o u c a n n e v e r r e a l l y l i v e w i t h a n o t h e r f a m i l y . I t a u g h t Home Ec. a t t h e t i m e so I had k i t c h e n f a c i l i t i e s so I u s e d t o buy food and I would make sandwiches f o r supper and so we'd go t o t h i s b u r n t out p l a c e and we'd have o u r s u p p e r . So we'd have supper i n t h a t p l a c e j u s t t o be by o u r s e l v e s . J u s t k e p t on g o i n g l i k e t h a t . I t h i n k many times we f e e l t h i n g s n e v e r come easy f o r u s , we r e a l l y have t o work f o r what we have and we r e a l l y have t o work f o r e v e r y t h i n g but somehow we manage t o do i t t o g e t h e r . I t h i n k maybe h a v i n g a l m o s t l o s t him t h i s summer made me r e a l i z e j u s t how v e r y , v e r y i m p o r t a n t t h a t was t o me and t h a t I j u s t wasn't p r e p a r e d t o l o s e i t . I t h i n k t h a t r e a l l y came home t h i s summer.  I:  Has i t changed your r e l a t i o n s h i p i n any way? awareness o f what i t i s .  CR:  W e l l i t h a s . I t has changed my r e l a t i o n s h i p i n t h a t I f e e l I'm t o o p r o t e c t i v e now and I t h i n k J . f e e l s I'm t o o p r o t e c t i v e o f him and I t h i n k I am. But I t h i n k t h a t ' s a n a t u r a l r e a c t i o n . You know, I j u s t don't want t o see him g e t s i c k a g a i n . And y e t t h a t ' s a d e t r i m e n t a l t h i n g t o o because many times he t e l l s me I'm n a g g i n g , t o g e t o f f h i s b a c k . He's a b i g boy now and he knows what he can and c a n ' t do. And t h a t ' s an i s s u e t h a t I'm w o r k i n g w i t h . That's my i s s u e .  I t ' s heightened your  -  173  -  I t h i n k we c e r t a i n l y a p p r e c i a t e each o t h e r more now, even more. There's a l s o always t h i s f e a r o f , i s he ok. I f I c a l l and he d o e s n ' t answer the phone i t ' s a l m o s t t h i s p a n i c , I wonder i f he's ok. And here he i s h a v i n g a beer w i t h the guys down the s t r e e t , but i t ' s a f e a r t h a t p r o b a b l y w i l l n e v e r go away. I:  Have you changed a n y t h i n g about c o m m u n i c a t i n g . L i k e maybe J . b e f o r e might have gone a l i t t l e l o n g e r b e f o r e c a l l i n g you or i f you weren't i n you m i g h t have s a i d , "oh w e l l , I ' l l c a t c h him l a t e r . "  CR:  Ya we've, e v e r s i n c e h i s i l l n e s s and e v e r s i n c e he's been back i n V. he makes more of a p o i n t to c a l l , to c h e c k - i n as he s a y s . Because he knows I w o r r y a l o t , he's r e a l l y been good. There were a c o u p l e of t i m e s i f he d i d n ' t f e e l l i k e phoning he d i d n ' t but I d i d n ' t r e a l l y w o r r y . But now he always checks i n . whenever he l e a v e s f o r a t r i p he t e l l s me. Sometimes we t a l k to each o t h e r two o r t h r e e t i m e s a day. H e ' l l j u s t phone and say I'm coming i n t o V. o r I'm g o i n g t o P.R. so t h a t I always know when he's away.  I:  And  CR:  Oh y a , you n e v e r know where and then he always c a l l s me g e t s back to say e v e r y t h i n g I s ok.  I:  You s a i d t h a t he's a n i c e p e r s o n and t h a t you r e a l l y c a r e f o r him and t h a t he's easy g o i n g and a l l t h o s e s o r t s of t h i n g s . Can you t e l l me some of the t h i n g s t h a t b o t h e r you, t h a t bug you, the k i n d of s t u f f t h a t ...  CR:  Oh, now we're g e t t i n g i n t o the good s t u f f , ( l a u g h t e r ) Oh, and t h a t b o t h e r me. I t h o u g h t t h a t t h i s was m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n Peter.  I:  W e l l , i t i s S. but maybe some of the weakness of your r e l a t i o n s h i p , some of the t h i n g s t h a t p e r s o n a l l y you m i g h t l i k e changed but you know t h a t , w e l l I don't know I won't say much more. J u s t t o l o o k a t the c o n t r a s t as much as a n y t h i n g .  CR:  You know, i n many ways b e i n g away i s an advantage to us but i f I had a c h o i c e I t h i n k I would r a t h e r l e a d a n i c e normal l i f e because we can n e v e r make an a p p o i n t m e n t , we can n e v e r make a d a t e f o r anything. P e o p l e s a y , "come on o v e r f o r d i n n e r . " Well w e ' l l say, " w e l l i f he's i n town." We c a n ' t get seasons t i c k e t s f o r a n y t h i n g because I never know when he's g o i n g to be home and t h a t has been frustrating. Even now when he s a y s , "I'm coming i n t o V. can you meet me a t 12 noon," t h a t ' s u p s e t t i n g because i t d i s r u p t s my r o u t i n e . Or I may have made p l a n s to go out f o r supper and h e ' l l s a y , "I'm coming i n at s i x . " So t h a t means I have to phone and s a y , " w e l l I c a n ' t make i t , " and t h a t ' s t o u g h , t h a t ' s h a r d .  I:  That r e a l l y c a l l s f o r a whole l o t of f l e x i b i l i t y on your p a r t .  CR:  Which I'm  h i s s c h e d u l e changes so much d o e s n ' t i t .  not.  when he  - 174 I:  No?  CR:  'Cause I'm a v e r y s t r u c t u r e d p e r s o n and e v e r y t i m e I do i t i t b o t h e r s me. I f I have t o phone p e o p l e and s a y , " w e l l we c a n ' t make i t a f t e r a l l " , o r Sunday's f o o t b a l l game f o r i n s t a n c e . I know he r e a l l y wants t o go. So we've g o t t h e s e two t i c k e t s . Now I don't know i f he's g o i n g t o work so t h a t I c a n ' t ask anybody t o go w i t h me 'cause I don't know i f he's g o i n g t o be home. So Sunday m o r n i n g a t t e n o ' c l o c k I w i l l know i f he's g o i n g t o be home. So who a r e you g o i n g t o c a l l a t 10 o ' c l o c k Sunday t o go t o t h e 1 o ' c l o c k game. T h a t ' s t h e s i t u a t i o n , you n e v e r know j u s t when he's g o i n g t o be around and when he i s n ' t .  I:  That's h i s j o b so do you f e e l k i n d o f , I don't know, somehow you've r e a l l y adapted t o i t w e l l , b u t does i t , and i t b o t h e r s you a b i t , but you've l e a r n e d how t o cope w i t h i t . I guess what I'm t r y i n g t o s a y , do you f e e l l i k e some o f y o u r freedom o r whatever i s t a k e n away.  CR:  Not my freedom as much as my, w e l l my i n d e p e n d e n c e I g u e s s . Because I am a s t r u c t u r e d p e r s o n and i f I t e l l somebody I'm g o i n g to be t h e r e , I'm g o i n g t o be t h e r e . I mean i t ' s i m p o r t a n t t h a t I be t h e r e . To have t o change a l l t h e t i m e — I d o n ' t t h i n k i t ' s any e a s i e r , i t doesn't g e t any e a s i e r . But i t ' s something t h a t I'm g o i n g t o have t o l i v e w i t h 'cause t h a t ' s h i s j o b . And he i s good though, he always phones and s a y s , "what a r e y o u r p l a n s f o r t h e day?" I f he knows t h a t , I'm d o i n g something r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t he won't s a y - w e l l h e ' l l j u s t c a t c h t h e p l a n e back o r w h a t e v e r . So he t r i e s n o t t o i n t e r f e r e w i t h t h e t h i n g s t h a t I'm d o i n g . Still i t ' s an i n c o n v e n i e n c e and i t ' s something t h a t i s a r e a l t h o r n . I t h i n k t h a t ' s p r o b a b l y t h e b i g g e s t t h o r n , j u s t n e v e r knowing.  I:  I guess i f he g o t a j o b i n V. t h a t would change a b i t .  CR:  Y a , t h a t w i l l change i n J u l y . But i t w i l l and i t won't, because when he's on c a l l he's on c a l l . So we s t i l l won't know whether he i s g o i n g t o be t a k i n g a s h i p out o r n o t , i t might even be worse.  I:  I'm g o i n g t o a s k you one o t h e r t h i n g , I d o n ' t know where i t w i l l t a k e u s . I n l o o k i n g a t t h e p e r s o n t h a t you knew when you f i r s t met J . and t h e t h i n g s t h a t a t t r a c t e d you t o him and now t h r o u g h y o u r f i f t e e n y e a r s , do you t h i n k those t h i n g s a r e s t i l l t h e r e , t h o s e q u a l i t i e s , t h o s e a t t r a c t i o n s o r have t h e y changed? Or even j u s t t e l l me a l i t t l e b i t about y o u r h i s t o r y , y o u r e a r l y h i s t o r y .  CR:  I t h i n k t h a t t h e q u a l i t i e s t h a t a t t r a c t e d me t o h i m I s t i l l admire v e r y much. I t h i n k h i s easy g o i n g n a t u r e was something t h a t I r e a l l y l i k e d . He j u s t i s a v e r y easy p e r s o n t o g e t a l o n g w i t h and he's a l s o v e r y p a t i e n t . I c a n t e a s e t h e d a y - l i g h t s out of him and h e ' l l never g e t angry a t me. W e l l , e v e r y so o f t e n h e ' l l blow. He t a k e s an a w f u l l o t , he r e a l l y d o e s , b e f o r e he g e t s a n g r y . He's g e t t i n g s e t i n h i s ways i n m i d d l e age and l i v i n g by h i m s e l f . Which  - 175  -  we're g o i n g to have to change when he g e t s home. I'm n o t i c i n g t h a t he i s g e t t i n g v e r y s e t i n h i s ways, he e a t s a t 5:10 i n the apartment so when he's a t home we have to eat a t 5:10, w e l l t h a t j u s t i s n ' t n e c e s s a r i l y so because many t i m e s I don't get home u n t i l a quarter a f t e r . I t h i n k h i s good n a t u r e and j u s t h i s r e s p e c t f o r me as a p e r s o n ; t h a t was something t h a t I r e a l l y l i k e d about him. He n e v e r , e v e r put h i s f i n g e r down s o r t of t h i n g , t h e r e ' s r e a l l y been no c o n t r o l . He's never t r i e d t o c o n t r o l me and I've r e a l l y respected that. I:  And do you t h i n k you were aware of t h a t r i g h t away o r has awareness j u s t s o r t of come.  CR:  No, I was aware of t h a t r i g h t away and i t ' s s t i l l v e r y much s o , i n f a c t more s o . He r e s p e c t s t h a t even more. And r i g h t now w i t h my c a r e e r g o i n g the way i t i s he's s u p p o r t i n g a n y t h i n g I am p r e p a r e d t o do. E x c e p t t h e t e a c h i n g , he doesn't p a r t i c u l a r l y want me t o go back t e a c h i n g because he saw what i t d i d t o me and a l s o he w a n t s , w i t h h i s t i m e o f f i t ' s a good t i m e . t o t r a v e l and he f e e l s t h i s i s the time i n our l i v e s t h a t we s h o u l d be. And I agree w i t h him.  I:  He's s u p p o r t i n g you, maybe a l m o s t e n c o u r a g i n g something e l s e .  CR:  But he's never s a i d , " d o n ' t " , n e v e r . He s a i d , " t h e s e a r e my f e e l i n g but i f you d e c i d e t o go back t o t e a c h i n g t h e n t h a t ' s the way i t w i l l be." So I t h i n k t h a t freedom.  I:  That's  CR:  Yes  I:  When you guys met d i d , w e l l can you j u s t t e l l me a l i t t l e b i t about when you f i r s t got t o g e t h e r , j u s t r e a l l y b r i e f l y .  CR:  I s h o u l d l e t J . t e l l you t h a t because he t e l l s i t so o f t e n . I met him on the f e r r y g o i n g t o V. I was v i s i t i n g my b r o t h e r and I had my mother and my s i s t e r and my aunt w i t h me. My b r o t h e r knew him and J . had j u s t g o t t e n h i s t i c k e t f o r h i s master s k i p p e r ' s p a p e r s . He was g o i n g to go to R. t o work, h i s f i r s t j o b , and we were g o i n g to V. and I j u s t happened to s i t by him. And we never s t o p p e d t a l k i n g a l l the way down. I was i n T. a t the time and when we l e f t I s a i d , " i f you're e v e r i n T. g i v e me a c a l l " and so a month and a h a l f l a t e r he c a l l e d .  r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t to  your  you, to choose  you.  it is.  ( i n t e r v i e w i n t e r r u p t e d by a knock on the d o o r ) I:  And you t o l d me about how you s a t down and t a l k e d and t h a t was i t . And I'm wondering i f you can a c t u a l l y remember what you t a l k e d about.  -  176  -  CR:  I t h i n k p r o b a b l y J . t o l d me about h i s work more t h a n a n y t h i n g 'cause I'd never met anybody who worked at s e a . I think b a s i c a l l y we t a l k e d about work, j o b s , t r a v e l and t h a t was i t . I mean what can you say i n an hour and a h a l f , a l t h o u g h we s a i d a l o t . 'Cause I remember my aunt s a y i n g , "you guys never s t o p p e d t a l k i n g , " o r "doesn't he e v e r s t o p t a l k i n g ? " But he phoned me about a month and a h a l f o r two months l a t e r and s a i d he was a r r i v i n g i n T. the f o l l o w i n g day. He got good and drunk b e f o r e he c o u l d phone and s a i d he was coming to T. the n e x t day. And I s a i d , "oh s u r e , y a " , and so I d i d go out to the a i r p o r t and t h e r e he was, he had come. T h a t ' s how i t a l l s t a r t e d . T h i s was November and we were engaged i n December but then we d i d n ' t get m a r r i e d u n t i l May so t h a t happened v e r y q u i c k l y .  I:  He came back e a s t and went back t o V.  CR:  Ya, I was w o r k i n g i n T. t e a c h i n g and t h a t was the t i m e when he has f o u r weeks on and f o u r weeks o f f so he'd come to T. on h i s f o u r weeks o f f .  I:  So t h a t p a t t e r n was  CR:  But I t h i n k t h a t the t h i n g t h a t r e a l l y a t t r a c t e d me was h i s good n a t u r e d n e s s . R i g h t at the b e g i n n i n g when I f i r s t met him and he was j u s t so easy t o t a l k t o , I mean t h a t r e a l l y i m p r e s s e d me on the ferry.  I:  What's "good n a t u r e d n e s s " ?  CR:  B e i n g q u i t e happy and easy to be around p e o p l e , p e o p l e j u s t k i n d of l i k e him, and j u s t easy t o be a r o u n d . He's changed a l i t t l e b i t , he's become more s e r i o u s now but I remember him j o k i n g w i t h my a u n t i e and t e a s i n g my mom and he s t i l l does.  I:  And  CR:  R i g h t o f f the b a t . As a m a t t e r of f a c t I t h i n k he even c a l l e d Mom, Mom on the f e r r y , but t h a t ' s him. He p r o b a b l y would have c a l l e d the n e x t p e r s o n Mom t o o . I c a l l e d h e r Mom so he c a l l e d her Mom but t h a t ' s the way he i s . So t h a t was the b e g i n n i n g . He' s changed c o n s i d e r a b l y i n h i s o l d age. I t h i n k h i s work has c e r t a i n l y t a k e n i t ' s t o l l and I t h i n k h i s i l l n e s s has c e r t a i n l y t a k e n i t ' s t o l l and he has become much more s e r i o u s now but I t h i n k so have I .  I:  So you  CR:  Ya, and I t h i n k the o t h e r p a r t t h a t ' s r e a l l y worked f o r us i s t h a t we've b o t h changed c a r e e r s a t the same t i m e w h i c h has been v e r y e x c i t i n g f o r b o t h of u s . Had one changed and the o t h e r one s t u c k i n a j o b t h a t we were, t h a t I wasn't happy w i t h , t h a t c o u l d have produced a l o t of t e n s i o n . And the same w i t h him, had I gone t o  he was  you  stayed  t h e r e f o r a w h i l e y o u r s e l f and  e s t a b l i s h e d r i g h t at the  a b l e to do  he  beginning.  t h i s r i g h t away.  changed a l i t t l e  b i t together  i n that  respect.  -  177  -  u n i v e r s i t y and he had s t u c k w i t h h i s o l d j o b t h a t would have been pretty miserable. But we b o t h d e c i d e d to change a t the same time w h i c h has made i t v e r y e x c i t i n g . I:  You guys a r e i n two t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t c a r e e r a r e a s so t h a t you don't have t h a t commonality but the commonality seems to be t h a t you b o t h changed, t h a t you were b o t h d i s s a t i s f i e d w i t h what you were d o i n g and wanted t o change and went f o r i t i n your own ways.  I:  (new t o p i c ) You t o l d me about y o u r c o m m u n i c a t i n g . You s a i d the o n l y t h i n g , i f any t h i n g , t h a t b l o c k s y o u r c o m m u n i c a t i o n i s t h a t you become a l i t t l e b i t q u i e t and don't speak out and t h a t ' s r e a l l y essentially i t is it?  CR:  I t h i n k I'm the p e r s o n a t f a u l t t h e r e , v e r y much so when i t comes t o c o m m u n i c a t i o n , I'm the p o u t e r .  I:  B e i n g a c o u n s e l l o r , how do you f i n d J . as a communicator? O b v i o u s l y he has some n a t u r a l communication s k i l l s , you don't r e a l l y have t o t e a c h him.  CR:  But he's l e a r n e d an a w f u l l o t f r o m me. You know, h e ' l l always p i c k out c o u n s e l l o r j a r g o n as he c a l l s i t , he can r e a l l y p i c k t h a t up. But he's l e a r n e d a l o t because he's r e a l l y i n t e r e s t e d i n p s y c h o l o g y , he r e a l l y i s , and I've g i v e n him a l o t of my books to read. Much more i n t e r e s t t h a n I've t a k e n i n h i s j o b . I don't know a n y t h i n g about s h i p s . I f he t e l l s me i t ' s a 154 t o n o r a 122 t o n I j u s t s a y , "oh, r e a l l y " , 'cause I have no concept of what a ton i s as f a r as s h i p p i n g g o e s .  I:  What I t h i n k sometimes i s t h a t b e i n g w i t h somebody who i s n ' t a p a r t i c u l a r l y good communicator i n terms of what we l e a r n and j u s t i n g e n e r a l , I f i n d i t d i f f i c u l t to be w i t h somebody l i k e t h a t now. And I'm not a w o n d e r f u l communicator by any means but I'm s u r e much more aware of i t . L i k e you got i n t o c o u n s e l l i n g a f t e r you guys had been t o g e t h e r t e n y e a r s or w h a t e v e r and so your p a t t e r n s must have changed somewhat. But i t wasn't to any s o r t of d e t r i m e n t , I mean, you d i d n ' t go r o l l i n g a l o n g and he . . .  CR:  No, he always k e p t up and t h a t ' s s o m e t h i n g we've b o t h b e i n g v e r y c o n s c i o u s o f , v e r y c o n s c i o u s o f , k e e p i n g up w i t h the o t h e r . And he has mentioned t h i s s e v e r a l t i m e s and I've done i t to him. He's e x p r e s s e d a f e a r t h a t I m i g h t go too f a r ahead and he wouldn't be a b l e t o keep up and t h a t ' s a l e g i t i m a t e f e a r . I've e x p r e s s e d the same t h i n g i n h i s j o b , l i k e too much can happen too q u i c k l y and I might not be a b l e to keep up. But I t h i n k i f y o u ' r e c o n s c i o u s of i t , t h e n y o u ' l l do s o m e t h i n g about i t . And I t h i n k t h i s i s where the communication comes i n , k e e p i n g him p o s t e d on what's h a p p e n i n g a l l the t i m e h e l p s .  -  178  -  I:  So he doesn't come back t h r e e weeks l a t e r and you've gone t h r o u g h s o m e t h i n g and i t ' s r e a l l y h a r d t o r e l a t e t o what has happened and stuff. I t seems to me t h a t t h a t i s a r e a l danger i n relationships. I f somebody changes t h i s way and the o t h e r p e r s o n i s s t i l l g o i n g m e r r i l y a l o n g because t h i n g s were always t h a t way.  CR:  Ya, and t h a t was s o m e t h i n g t h a t we were v e r y , v e r y c o n s c i o u s o f . We were d e t e r m i n e d t h a t wasn't g o i n g to happen. You know a l o t of p e o p l e have mentioned to me when t h e y see me by m y s e l f , when he's away, a l o t of p e o p l e s a y , "oh, I c o u l d never do i t " , or "you seem so happy when y o u ' r e on your own," o r whatever the comments a r e . I guess b e c a u s e I f e e l s e c u r e w i t h what I have I don't have to w o r r y about b e i n g by m y s e l f .  I:  Emotionally  CR:  Ummum. But I t h i n k the t e s t came t h i s summer when I j u s t about l o s t him and I r e a l i z e d t h a t I d i d n ' t want t o . That h i t home v e r y , v e r y , v e r y much s o . So I t h i n k I ' l l keep him f o r a w h i l e . (laughs)  I:  Do you have about f i v e more m i n u t e s ?  CR:  Sure.  I:  What does the f u t u r e h o l d f o r your r e l a t i o n s h i p i n terms of ahead now.  CR:  W e l l how  I:  Y o u ' l l j u s t have to l o o k i n your l i t t l e c r y s t a l b a l l . What's y o u r sense about what's g o i n g t o o c c u r . T h i s i s a b i g change, l i k e b u y i n g a house, I don't know, what does the f u t u r e h o l d .  CR:  I have a f e a r f o r the f u t u r e , I r e a l l y do, because I'm J . w i l l get s i c k a g a i n .  secure.  can I answer t h a t  looking  Peter?  (end  of  afraid  that  tape)  I f we d e c i d e on the house and we have t o make changes to our p l a n s , we e x p e c t e d to t r a v e l a l o t i n the next f i v e y e a r s o r s o , but t h a t w i l l change, w e ' l l have t o c o n c e n t r a t e our e f f o r t s on the house. We have t o d i s c u s s t h i s v e r y s e r i o u s l y . Do we want to do t h i s , t h e r e are a l o t of d e c i s i o n s t o be made. What do we want to g i v e up t o have t h i s p l a c e . I don't see a n y t h i n g g o i n g v e r y differently* I t h i n k I ' l l j u s t keep d o i n g what I want to do. And as f a r as my j o b goes i t doesn't m a t t e r i f I'm e a r n i n g money o r not as l o n g as I'm not a bear t o be around h e ' l l go f o r a n y t h i n g , ( l a u g h t e r ) I c a n ' t r e a l l y say any more and i t ' s something t h a t we don't r e a l l y d i s c u s s t h a t o f t e n .  - 179  -  I:  But y o u ' r e a l r e a d y b o t h w o r k i n g on your f u t u r e s a r e n ' t you, y o u ' r e l o o k i n g at houses, you're . . .  CR:  Oh y a , and our r e t i r e m e n t ' s a l l t a k e n c a r e of so we don't have t o w o r r y about our r e t i r e m e n t , t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . The f u t u r e as f a r as r e t i r e m e n t goes and the f u t u r e w i t h i n the next f o u r c r f i v e y e a r s , but I c a n ' t r e a l l y s a y , nor do I e v e n want t o p r e d i c t beyond t h a t . I t h i n k we're b o t h of the mind t h a t i f we f e l t t h a t something was r e a l l y wrong w i t h the r e l a t i o n s h i p we'd seek c o n s e l l i n g . J . has m e n t i o n e d t h a t s e v e r a l t i m e s , w h i c h p l e a s e s me because he would go readily. So I don't see too much happening i n the n e g a t i v e .  I:  T h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g because i t sounds l i k e J.'s n e v e r become d e f e n s i v e about your e d u c a t i o n , your d i r e c t i o n , you know, t h i s h i g h - f a u l t i n ' psychology b u l l s h i t .  CR:  Never, n e v e r . That's the one t h i n g t h a t a g a i n I r e a l l y r e s p e c t about him because he has n e v e r e v e r s a i d a n y t h i n g i n t h a t r e s p e c t . A l o t of p e o p l e have, t o J . , and t h a t ' s when he becomes d e f e n s i v e , but he has n e v e r , e v e r , he may have t h o u g h t i t , but he has n e v e r said anything.  I:  I t j u s t seems t o me, because you guys are i n such d i f f e r e n t a r e a s and you've made so many changes, i n some ways, i n your p e r s o n a l l i v e s and y e t t h e r e ' s a c o r e t h e r e t h a t c a r r i e s on and t h a t seems very important.  CR:  Y a , and you know I t h i n k i n many o t h e r r e l a t i o n s h i p s , had I p u r s u e d a Ph.D. . . . Where J . d o e s n ' t have a u n i v e r s i t y e d u c a t i o n and he's v e r y c o n s c i o u s of t h a t , v e r y c o n s c i o u s of t h a t , t h a t would have b o t h e r e d him. But t h e n , he's so v e r y s u c c e s s f u l i n h i s own a r e a t h a t i t r e a l l y d o e s n ' t m a t t e r . Maybe i f he hadn't been s u c c e s s f u l i t would have m a t t e r e d . I mean, I can have 150 degrees but he's r e a l l y the one who's got the b e s t j o b of a l l . Really his c a r e e r i s i d e a l and a l o t of p e o p l e envy h i s c a r e e r . The t i m e o f f and the f i n a n c i a l end of i t . So I guess t h e r e ' s r e a l l y no r e a s o n f o r him t o f e e l t h r e a t e n e d . And a l o t of p e o p l e have s a i d to him, "you must be r e a l l y t h r e a t e n e d , you must r e a l l y f e e l t h r e a t e n e d , i t must r e a l l y b o t h e r y o u . " But i t d o e s n ' t .  I:  I t must t a k e some e f f o r t on h i s p a r t t o o .  CR:  I don't know, i t doesn't seem l i k e i t does. I don't t h i n k s o , I t h i n k he's j u s t q u i t e happy i n what he's d o i n g . And i t ' s n e v e r b o t h e r e d me t h a t he d o e s n ' t have a u n i v e r s i t y e d u c a t i o n , i t ' s n e v e r , e v e r b o t h e r e d me.  I:  'Cause l i k e you s a y , he's made e f f o r t s to u n d e r s t a n d what's g o i n g on and he has r e a d your s t u f f . W e l l , he's v e r y i n t e l l i g e n t anyway.  -  180  -  CR:  Y a , and I t h i n k had he been g i v e n the o p p o r t u n i t y to go to s c h o o l he would have. And I t h i n k he r e g r e t s not h a v i n g gone many t i m e s , but t h a t ' s the way t h i n g s a r e .  I:  I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e t h a t you want to add  CR:  I d o n ' t t h i n k so P e t e r . I t h i n k I've b a s i c a l l y summed u p — I d o n ' t know i f t h e r e ' s a n y t h i n g more t h a t y o u ' r e l o o k i n g f o r .  I:  I'm t r y i n g not to d i r e c t i l o o k i n g f o r your s t o r y . So r e a l l y soon now, come back d e s c r i p t i o n and get you to you d i s a g r e e w i t h .  CR:  Your d e s c r i p t i o n o f ?  I:  Of m a r i t a l s a t i s f a c t i o n , the combined, e v e r y o n e I've I n t e r v i e w e d . That w i l l be my way of v a l i d a t i n g i t . I f a t t h a t time you've thought of something e l s e l e t me know and i f t h e r e ' s t h i n g s i n t h e r e t h a t perhaps f o r someone e l s e i t was r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t but i t wasn't f o r you, t h e n I want you to t e l l me and w e ' l l t a l k about i t .  b e f o r e we  . . .  t too much to t e l l you the t r u t h , I'm what I ' l l do, h o p e f u l l y i t w i l l be t o you w i t h your t r a n s c r i p t and w i t h my l o o k a t i t and see i f t h e r e ' s a n y t h i n g  One o t h e r t h i n g . What p a r t does i n t i m a c y and romance p l a y i n y o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p now a f t e r f i f t e e n y e a r s ? CR:  What p a r t does i t p l a y . How do you want me to answer t h a t — w h a t p a r t . You mean i s I t an i m p o r t a n t p a r t . Ya, i t i s . Of c o u r s e i t is. We're two s e l f i s h p e o p l e you have t o remember. We don't have anybody e l s e to s h a r e our a t t e n t i o n w i t h so t h e r e f o r e we share I t w i t h one a n o t h e r .  I:  Do you s t i l l have i n t i m a c y — d o s o r t of s t u f f .  CR:  Oh, t w i c e a week when he's home. That's v e r y i m p o r t a n t . And t h a t ' s s o m e t h i n g we can do f i n a n c i a l l y now t o o . The a f f e c